EFT - APP program

[Birky]

Dear All,

For those of you interested in training with EFT on their APP program, I have just heard from Trevor Brackston - Head Of Training there - as follows:

"I only have 6 spaces left this year for the APP and have decided I will be saving them for students that I know personaly [sic]. as you can apretiate [sic] the APP students become my employees and end up representing EFT, thus marketing us further and then representing us with the Airlines [sic]. So I think it only fair to let you know this now so that you can plan your training. I wish you good Luck [sic] in the future.

Regards
Trevor "

Sound like a coded message to you? It does to me. I have a feeling that Mr Brackston doesn't like any customers who ask any questions about inaccuracies on their website.

(i.e. there is NO free accommodation for APP students (unlike the website which clearly claims that there is) and there is NO multi-engine time accruable as an instructor unless you spend a further $10,000 with them (unlike their course breakdown material which clearly suggests that 200 hours can be accrued)

I suspect that pointing those two facts out has marked me as a customer with rather too much interest in the small print. Lord save us from flying-school websites with poor information, and flying schools who don't appear to want anyone's business...

Thought i'd share that with you...hint of sarcasm, you betcha...

:ok:

Birky

[Frank Furillo]

Birky......
I have had a quick look ot EFT's web site and it clearley states accomodation is not included..... lookhere (http://www.flyeft.com/app/financial_app.html) and according to this (http://www.flyeft.com/library/app_schedule.pdf) there is only 200 hours of MEP.
As a current EFT Modulat IR student I can say that Trevor and his team provide a first class service.
FF

[SAMIR786]

I agree with Frank.

[mackey]

Birky,

There's no coded message,just go back to the website and read it slowly.Have to whole-heartedly agree with FF.The team at EFT are great,excellent instruction( which is the main reason you would want to go there ),I know that for a fact as I passed my CPL with them on sunday.Oh,and the weathers good ..............most of the time!!.
Perhaps you might want to try the modular route,you could ask EFT if they could structure you an appropriate course to take you through all necessary ratings but just not on the APP scheme.

If you don't ask....................!


M. :ok:

[Birky]

Hey Frank Furillo, SAMIR786 and mackey...

Firstly guys, I have no doubt at all that EFT’s training is very good. That’s precisely why I was interested in going there in the first place, so you can all keep your hair on.

Secondly, however well-intentioned your support for EFT is, you are all mistaken with regard to the inaccuracies I have drawn your attention to. Look again...

Re: Accommodation on the APP program – included or not?

Frank, you’re quite right to say that at one point on the site (http://www.flyeft.com/app/financial_app.html) accommodation is marked as NOT included, what I am saying is that they have conflicting information on their website, something which they still haven't rectified as of 10.5.05 (a week after I told them about it). Look at http://www.flyeft.com/inside_eft/accommodation.html and you will see quite clearly that EFT say,

"Cadets enrolled on the Airline Pilot Programme™, who are working with EFT for a period of up to two years, live in our own student housing in nearby Vero Beach - a 10 minute drive from EFT's base. We built these houses (fifteen overall) as a response to previous students' dissatisfaction with the available accommodation at EFT. Erected in mid-2003, the houses are bright and spacious, each containing two en-suite bedrooms and a shared kitchen and living room. Bedrooms are suitably equipped with cable television, telephone and internet access. It's the perfect training and living environment while working with EFT. Rental of student houses is $575 per calendar month (or $25 per day), with an initial security deposit of $250. This price is included in the APP™ course, but is charged separately for Modular and FastTrack™ students."

The last line clearly says the accommodation is part-and-parcel of the APP fee, no?

Re: Multi-engine hours – included on the APP program or not?

Take a look at http://www.flyeft.com/library/app_schedule.pdf

At the bottom of that PDF document (Phase 5) it clearly implies that instructors with EFT's APP program can build up to 200 hours of ME time. This is not true, not unless you spend a further $10,000 with them and get a ME instructor rating. It is very misleading of them not to point this out clearly on their website.

Guys, my overall point is this. Anyone can make a mistake on a website. It's how you handle being corrected that matters. I would say EFT's reaction could be characterised as,

"avoid this smart alec, we don't want him working as an instructor for us because he looks at the small print too much".

Students looking to spend tens of thousands of pounds with a given flying school are under a lot of pressure (from all angles) to spend their monies wisely. For that reason, a wise student will try to nail down every last cost as much as possible.

Therefore, where schools give inaccurate or conflicting information, they should firstly apologise for that error and then fix that error, not argue with the customer, or, worse still, tell that customer you don't want their business.

Over to you Trevor, don't just have your students speaking for you eh?

(I do love a good-natured battle of wits!)

Birky

[Dave Martin]

Birky,

Not getting EFT mixed up with FTE are you?

[huggybear46]

what is now with the 200 me time must i spend another 10000$.
but i think the say up to 1500 hours so it can be 200 hours but it also can be less, right.
please write back that i know whats the matter.
thanks

[Matthew Adams]

huggybear - I agree I am here the website is a little misleading on the accommodation side of things.

With regards to the 200 hours multi instruction time yes a multi engine instructor rating would be required. NONE of the hours are guaranteed - neither is the place as an instructor - you could accumilate up to the given hours if you instructed for that long.

With regards to Trevor's email - there are a lot of APP students here currently and it would not surprise me if they are almost full for the year - I think you are reading far too much into the email.

[African Drunk]

"our major competitors including Oxford Aviation, BAe Systems, and Lufthansa Flight Training"

And all from two rooms in Ari-benn's building very impressive.

[boredaccountant]

Dear ALL,

I am currently on the APP program at EFT, and I am VERY happy with them

1) Under the old APP scheme, accomodation was included for all students who booked before a certain date, regardless of your actual start date..... I believe that date was almost a year ago now.... Then however the structure of the APP programme changed and therefore students booking after July 2004 would not have accomodation included. This was obviously undated on the website and any descrepency on the website would be a genuie error, as the website is very detailed and provides alot of information in different places.... however its very clear on the website in the 'APP in Detail' section whats included and what's not......... And for those of you who are unclear or feel the website is unclear... why don't you email the school at [email protected]...... in my experince in over a year of dealing with ths school..... I've never had to wait more than 12 hours for a response... try that before mouthing off on this website.

2/ As for the multiengine hours.... the detail show potentially the maximum number of hours you can achieve, and YES there are many instructors there at the moment who are achieving this... As for this $10,000 figure..... not sure which part of the sky you pulled that out off!!!!

3/ As for ths school not taking more students..... isn't this a very good signal that the schhol is busy and is booked to capacity.... would you rather the school just continued to take students at an endless rate without been able to support the training properly. As far as I know ALL schools OXFORD, JEREZ, CABAIR... all have quota's of students which they can take.... why would EFT be any different? ? ? ?

William

[Birky]

William (boredaccountant)

(Many thanks for the offer of advice re: EFT BTW...but as you can see, we're somewhat past that)

Like the others above, William, I don't doubt the sincerity of your support for EFT. However, to answer your three points:

- One, I already said that I don't mind mistakes being made on a website. What I mind is poor customer service and an arrogant attitude, two things I honestly believe EFT to be guilty of here. For what it's worth William, I DID contact them to clarify all these points. I'm only 'mouthing off' (as you put it) because I believe bad customer service, misleading information and arrogance should be highlighted to fellow PPRUNERS, before they shell out their hard-earned cash.

- Two, you say you are enrolled on the APP program and seem to be implying that the multi-engine hours shown on the PDF breakdown ARE achievable without paying any more than the standard fee. If that is what you're saying then you're WRONG old boy, sorry. Ask Trevor yourself.

The APP program is a 'single-engine APP' unless you specifically add an MEI rating to it for around £5000/$10,000 extra (and those really are Trevor Brackston's own words William so that's the "part of the sky I pulled it from")

- Three, I agree that there's nothing wrong with a school being popular. However, if being 'popular' makes them think they don't need to keep a high standard of customer service then they certainly don't deserve to survive any future downturn.

What goes around always comes around. Having run my own business I know the value of a happy customer. I also know that an unhappy customer will tell at least ten people about an example of bad service.

Good luck with your flying nonetheless,

Birky


:ok:

[lissy]

i checked out birkys complaint hes right

[boredaccountant]

Birky....

I am slightly confused here..... Its just that your NOT actually a customer of EFT.... or any other flight training organisation I would imagine... just another wannabe who made a query.

And as a chartered Accountant, be rest assured I can count and I know exactly what my training is costing and what's included and whats not, so PLEASE do not worry that i'll be in for a shock....

And as for your comment

' Lord save us from flying-school websites with poor information, and flying schools who don't appear to want anyone's business..'

Considering that your are interested in an ab Inito training its clear that you have never been at a flight training organisation..... therefore I think its a bit early for you to be seeking salvation... wouldn't you agree? ? ......also with regard to flight schools with poor information.... please send me a web address with more information.... or at LEAST equal information ro www.flyeft.com..... I think i'll be waiting for a while....

William

[maxwell4065]

EFT and the APP are bloody good. Nuff said.

[Farrell]

I have to agree> no complaints about EFT.

[Birky]

The information I highlighted is STILL incorrect on their website, even after another week has gone by.

Most businesses worry enough about customers noticing errors on their websites to actually get off their arses and fix them. Not so with EFT apparently. Doesn't that worry anyone? Are they as lax with other matters, training manuals etc, I wonder...

Perhaps it's just me being a grumpy old stickler for detail. Maybe I should get used to the idea that flying schools like EFT are exempt from normal business practices?



------------------------

[Frank Furillo]

Get Birky a saucer of milk guys, meaow

[Mark Collins]

Birky,

Firstly, let me introduce myself. I am currently a senior instructor at EFT and I have been with them for approximately 18 months. Although not a graduate of the APP program I did obtain my Flight Instructor and FAA ratings through EFT.

With reference to your first post I do believe you are reading too much into Trevor's email. I believe that Trevor was just being honest with you as he is with all potential customers. Don't take it personally.

As a business owner yourself I am sure you are aware of the importance of your staff. Through the APP program EFT is able to build a solid team of instructors that are committed to high standards of training and that fit the structure and environment of EFT. Surely it is the right of any management to pre-select potential team members. In the case of EFT that process is continually ongoing, from the point or your application and all through your training. It is one of the many reasons why EFT is successful and has survived difficult times in the aviation training industry.

Not everybody is suited to the APP program, not everybody is suited to EFT. Facts that are not the responsibility of EFT. It is unfortunate that your initial experience with EFT was not a positive one, we are unable to satisfy everyone.

Also, thank you for your concerns over the website, the errors you pointed out have been highlighted to the CFI and the site will be adjusted accordingly.

Next point - working as an instructor at EFT. The two year program where you will be working as an instructor is one of continual development. The opportunity is there for you to develop from a PPL instructor to a ME/IR instructor. This is dependent on two things, your desire to do it and commercial viability. Trevor is committed to giving all his students and instructors the best possible start to their aviation career, it is the main driving force behind the business. He genuinely believes in his product and will afford every assistance possible to help people achieve their goals. An instructors progression is managed on an individual basis and all opportunities will be open to you. It is not viable to quote for this as part of the APP as different people will choose different development paths.

Be careful about who you call arrogant. Arrogance breads complacency and complacency breads poor standards. I think the responses you received form current and former EFT students highlights we are definitely not arrogant. Thank you to those individuals for their positive comments about EFT. All of the instructors at EFT work long hours 6 days a week for the benefit of the students. Yes, we gain experience and hours, but instructing is something you have to commit to, it is not just about counting time.

Lastly, I would like to offer you some advice. The process of finding a training provider is difficult and sometimes frustrating as there are a lot of options and a lot of conflicting opinions. Take your time, do your research and make a choice that is personally right for you. A difficult decision, but be sure that you are comfortable with the company you choose and don't hand over all your money before you get there. If you need some advice on becoming a pilot/instructor, then feel free to drop me an email. I will be happy to share my experiences with you.

Remember the World isn't perfect, so accept it. Stop whining, leave this forum for people with genuine questions about training and get on with it.

Mark Collins.

[PPRuNe Towers]

Splendid stuff Mark,

But.

Is the site misleading and confusing for someone trying to make a serious decision involving a vast sum of money?

Is it not a simple thing to edit a website?

Isn't this exactly what PPRuNe is for - cutting through the hype and spin?

Shouldn't the thinking PPRuNer just discount your post as puff, guff and bluster until a childishly simple job is done on the website?

That is the crux of this issue - everything else is excuses and defensive posturing.

I know Trevor, I like Trevor. He's the gifted instructor and brave soul who sent Mrs Towers solo so no axe to grind other than ensuring clear, concise and truthful information for wannabees from all FTO's.

Regards
Rob Lloyd

[Birky]

I must thank Mark Collins from EFT for responding to my concerns about EFT's website errors. I look forward to seeing them rectified for the benefit of all future APP applicants.

I also appreciate his offer of advice with my flying training as well as the relatively conciliatory tone in most of his text.

However, it is an enormous shame that Mark Collins ended his post with the suggestion that I should stop 'whining' and that I should 'leave this forum for people with genuine questions about training'. In one sentence, he has compounded the very accusation I made in the first place; that EFT appear to have an arrogant attitude to applicants. I mean, why not simply apologise for the website error and for my perception of poor customer service (whether mis-interpreted or not) and leave it at that?

And just in case fellow PPRuNers wonder why I made the fuss to begin with, here's a reminder...

- ACTUAL accommodation costs for 15 months at $575/mnth = $8625
- ACTUAL cost of achieving the indicated 200 hours of ME time = $10,000

- Total discrepancy from the published charges = $18,625

All that said, like most of you, I think this thread has probably now run its natural course. I don't really have much more to add to Rob Lloyd's excellent post.

Birky

PS: And there was me thinking that the world was perfect Mark, thanks for putting me straight!

:ok:

[boredaccountant]

Mark Collins...

10/10..... a highly professional and intelligent instructor at EFT who i've had the pleasure of training with during the IMC rating in the APP program.

It should be clear that the testimonal of EFT Staff and current EFT students..... speak VOLUMES of the school and the standard of training there. It sends out a very strong message of the school and its excellent relations which it has ithe with all its students and its staff. This is the strongest evidence to potential students of the kind of training experience you should expect to receive at EFT.

Therefore for all potential customers of EFT, look in the right places to gain an ACCURATE and FAIR picture of our school.

William EFT APP Student.
William

[prunster]

Bored Accountant / William,

That is one the most pompous statements I've ever heard in 52 years. Although 'Birky' can speak for himself I'm sure, you're right out of step implying that he might not have what it takes. Wind your neck in, God save us all if I come across you on my flightdeck

[Farrell]

Mark Collins - total professionalism as usual!

See you in August! (and I'll bring my laptop so that I don't have to hog the office Internet!)

Safe skies mate

Wayne

[daniel78]

I have also been to EFT and had no problems

But if someone does have a problem with them,like Birky,I think he should be able to speak his mind without being torn apart by rabid dogs

This is after all a forum open for all, regardless of opinion

good luck with your training Birky

[Birky]

Much appreciated Daniel78 and prunster...

On a constructive note, I'm not sure whether there is anyone offering quite the same package as EFT (i.e. JAA licences first and FAA conversions second, rather than the other way round)

I know PEA offer a similar-sounding package (and Mike Kalendo at PEA was most helpful when he took the trouble to call me the other day) but they do it FAA first, then a convert to JAA afterwards which is not without its own dilemmas, at least according to many posts here.

If anyone does know of a good alternative to EFT I'd be most grateful.

Good luck to all whatever your endeavours!

Birky

[SAMIR786]

Totally agree with Mark.

[TwoDeadDogs]

Hello all
I'd take anything from EFT with a pinch of salt. Trevor and Ben are nice guys but their website is disingenuous with the truth, to be polite. I was there in 00 and found the following:
They did not own the aircraft. Aviator does. There were/are 5 Duchesses, not 8 (as continuously stated on Aviator's adverts in the popular flying press),none of which had a functioning radar or heater. The twins were used for night hour-building as well as their day schedule, which meant that, having been away all night, any snags that appeared overnight ate into daytime availability. This was compounded by, at the time, no night maintenance. Whilst there's nothing wrong with hiring in aircraft, the use of the phrase "our fleet" is, ahem, economical with the truth. It didn't inspire confidence.
The cars for hire from the school were absolute crocks and broke down frequently. Given the quantity of cash being obtained from students for their hire, they badly needed to be in better order.
There was no sim, of even the most basic kind, which would have helped greatly. "RANT" on a PC doesn't quite cut it.
Aviator charged students 3% for making payments by credit card. Add that up when you've spent $30000 dollars at the school and it's a bit of a stinger! Indeed, the fact that EFT were a "piggyback" school, being physically hosted by the famished remnants of a once-great school, was not apparent until one appeared at the door.
There were no on-site examiners. The gentlemen concerned had to travel from Michigan once a month and often were delayed by bad weather and missed connections. They were sometimes unable to test all the students available for testing, which meant that those students took a big financial hit.
The school is physically too small. There was no room available for quiet study because they were constantly required for tuition by either EFT or Aviator students. The fact that Aviator students paid almost half that charged to EFT students per flight hour was another unpleasant revelation.
There were more niggles, minor and major, that increased the stress levels and left me with an overriding impression that the dollar counted above all else. Individually, the instructors were mostly fine and quite good. I'd give the place 5 or 6 out of ten.
regards
TDD

[VFE]

2000 was five years ago. Much changes in five years and many of those issues are no longer valid.

I found the instruction at EFT to be nothing but professional and honest in 2004. They accomodate all types of student on an individual basis and do not have the superior 'conveyor belt' mentality of some other FTO's - that is definately a bonus in this day and age of pilot training.

What one must remember is that many students only have the one school on which to base their opinion but until you have at least had a lesson or two with some of the competitors you have no basis for an opinion.

But that's just my opinion.

VFE.

[Matthew Adams]

There were/are 5 Duchesses, not 8

There are quite a few more than that now.

The cars for hire from the school were absolute crocks and broke down frequently. Given the quantity of cash being obtained from students for their hire, they badly needed to be in better order.

The cars have been replaced with new ones with no servicibility problems.

There were no on-site examiners.

Ben is a PPL/Multi examiner, and Steven Fisher and Paul Thompson do the CPL exams and do not have to travel far at all.

Appreciate your points TwoDeadDogs, but as stated a lot changes in 5 years and as seen by the comments of recent and current students - things have changed for the better!

[Farrell]

Hope you're feeling better Matty!

[Frank Furillo]

Well said Matt, I could have not put it better myself.
I have had no problems getting my CPL here, cheaper and better than other schools that I have looked at. The quality of the instruction is second to none.
Much better than the instructors I had when I did my PPL, who did not give a damm about students, but had nice Planes and very nice buildings and student study area's.
EFT offer a very good service, they do not have the best facillities but in life you need to get on with stuff and adapt, roll with it, evolve and deal with things in a mature way.
Birky has NOT even visted the school, therfore how can he comment on the way things are.
This thread is not helping anybody who wants to make a informed decision on were to train at all.
FF

[Birky]

Dear William (boredaccountant),

If you post something up on PPRuNe that is less than complementary about someone (in this case me) you should at least have the courage to stand by what you say, not edit it later so the thread no longer adds up. I mean, poor old prunster's subsequent comment (on Page 2 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=174185&perpage=15&pagenumber=2) ) about you "winding your neck in" makes no sense now.

Even if you did decide that your original post sounded rather "pompous" - as prunster suggested - it's a bit spoilsport to then re-write your post to make yourself look better.

Dead giveaway here...

(Original message) posted 17th May 2005 11:36

(Prunster's subsequent post) posted 17th May 2005 13:47

(Your original message but edited) Last edited by boredaccountant on 18th May 2005 at 09:52]

Your original post - somewhat sarcastically - suggested that I read up on Crew Resource Management before daring to question the validity of a flying school's advertising. As you will no doubt know, CRM incorporates the notion that pilots should maintain situational awareness. Might I suggest that you re-read that section before getting yourself into 'situations' you are uncomfortable with?

Birky

(I do have a life, honest, but this thread is positively fun!)

----------------

EDIT ADDED:

By the way...Frank Furillo...on the contrary, I suspect this thread may be helping a good many folk make up their minds about EFT. (over 1280 views so far)

And TwoDeadDogs' post convinces me I might well have had a lucky escape from EFT.

[Farrell]

Birky

Listen mate.......any school you go to is going to have problems.
A year ago I was in the same boat as you....questioning and judging before going out and trying.

EFT has good points and bad points

OBA has good points and bad points

OFT has good points and bad points.......

standard pattern?......definitely!

If you do choose to do your training in the USA you're probably going to go to one of about five flight training schools if you're serious about becoming a pilot......when you are up there, whether it is in a brand new glass-cockpit Cirrus......or a banged out, seat of your pants 172 (like N53797.....my solo plane!)......you are going to have the time of your life......and trust me, when you come back, you are going to complain about your school; and the staff; and the cars; and the roads; and the food; and the TSA and their fingerprinting; and all the other bullsh*t that comes with training for the best job in the world.

Sincerely Birky, best of luck with your training.....enjoy every minute of it!

[Frank Furillo]

Birky,
I disagree that this thread is helpful. There is just a lot of people sprouting there opinions, and as Clint Eastwood once said "Opinions are like assoles..........everybody has got one"
FF

[TwoDeadDogs]

Hi all
I'm glad things have changed for the better at EFT. Did they ever get a Frasca or anything like it? Did they build on a study room? Are the EFT hourly prices still twice that of the FAA students? Are instructors still having to bunk students? How do students get to/from Orlando upon finishing? Is that battered Cessna,54G, still on the fleet? Is the Beech Musketeer still derelict on the ramp? Does the Boss's wife still chase the students for car hire cash? Do they still refuse to supply a source of coffee on site? Probably the only flight school in the entire USA without a CoffeeMate?!
Sorry, scan mode refuses to switch to non-cynic mode.
regards
TDD

[Farrell]

Did they ever get a Frasca or anything like it?
Yes.....er well no.....they have RANT on a PC

Did they build on a study room?
I think they did but it was blown away and they are building another one. (There were no students in it when it blew away!)


Are the EFT hourly prices still twice that of the FAA students?
Yes

Are instructors still having to bunk students?
No......they don't HAVE to......and let's not try and get these great guys into trouble, OK?

How do students get to/from Orlando upon finishing?
Car, plane, helicopter, lift from friends or a paid lift from EFT......but that is of course only if they want to go to Orlando....some people leave from Miami or the ton of other airports that are available in the USA

Is that battered Cessna,54G, still on the fleet?
Oh yes......it's got extended range fuel tanks so that it can make an even bigger bang when it goes down......which I thought it was going to do on me a while ago.....but hey.....that's aviation!

Is the Beech Musketeer still derelict on the ramp?
Don't know what it looks like, but if it's not.....there is now a derelict Grumman on the ramp that had it's tail fin chewed off by a hurricane.

Does the Boss's wife still chase the students for car hire cash?
Yes, she does......and she's lovely!!

Do they still refuse to supply a source of coffee on site?
I never asked if they would and was thinking about getting a coffee machine for them when I go back in August (watch this space).........

Oh and by the way.......EFT has one thing in the area that no other JAA approved school has....................

ERICA at the Tiki Restaurant!.......OH MY GAAAAAAAAWD! :E

[SAMIR786]

54G battered?

I did my PPL qualifying X-Country on that aircraft about 4 weeks ago and had no problems at all.

Farrell,

Next time you go mate, check out the tall brunette one who works behind the bar area.

Damn I miss Ft. Pierce!



:cool:

[Mark Collins]

Birky,

I have just read your response to my initial post and I feel it appropriate to add a few points to the cost issues you are concerned about.

Firstly, Accommodation. You are correct in saying that it is $575 per month for APP students. The structure of the course is such that the students are only in the USA for approx 6/7 months. The rest of the time they are at home studying for ATPL exams or in the UK for the end of their IR.

Therefore the approx cost of accommodation in the USA for the APP student is $4,000. In addition to this there will be a cost of accommodation in the UK for the IR. EFT will provide bed & breakfast details for students. So, what are you actually paying for in the USA? The accommodation cost includes your utility bills and local phone bill. The houses include furniture, TV, Microwave and a washer/dryer. If this accommodation is full then overspill housing is used that provide similar facilities.

When the student returns after the IR to start the Instructor phase there are some options. Firstly, the instructor can stay in the student houses at a reduced rate (currently $450) or secondly they can choose to live elsewhere. I currently live South of Fort Pierce and pay approx $500 per month in a shared house. Many Instructors live with each other outside of the houses and again this is cheaper.

Now, the FAA training cost. $10,000 is an accurate estimate, but it breaks down like this. Initially the outlay is approx $5,000 - this gives you an FAA single engine Commercial/Instrument and CFI rating. This gets you instructing, you have to have these ratings to be legal and insured in the aircraft.

While you are studying for these ratings you will be involved in the school doing ground briefings, airport pick ups and other duties. You will be compensated for this so living is getting a little easier. The aim of it is to bring you into the instructing team and give you some experience and confidence.

Once you have passed your FAA ratings you will start instructing, for the next 6-8 months you will be teaching the JAA PPL, Night and IMC ratings.

Once you have gained 200hrs instructing you will be given a stage check by the CFI which will enable you to start teaching the JAA CPL. Once you have gained sufficient experience, if you want to and it is commercially viable, you can invest the further $5,000 in your FAA Multi Commercial/Instrument, Multi and Instrument Instructor ratings.

To teach in the multi at EFT you need 100hrs mutli time for insurance purposes, the cost of this is covered in the $5,000. It is also worth noting that if you do all these ratings before you start instructing there will be a cost saving. The training for the FAA ratings is conducted by Ari Ben Aviator and they provide very reasonable pricing for EFT students.

The above is my own experiences with EFT and it should be said that EFT are very flexible in terms of your development and they will afford every assistance possible to enable you to meet your own personal goals.

In summary, hopefully you can now see that the accommodation costs are not as much as you thought them to be and the additional FAA ratings give you a significant addition to your CV as well as the hours mentioned on the website.

It is also worth remembering that while instructing here you are being financially compensated and therefore not living off borrowed money anymore. The compensation is approx. $1200 per month - more than enough to live and cover your expenses. Not a glamorous lifestyle, but it is enough.

Hopefully that has clarified any remaining issues for both yourself and any other interested parties. If you have any further concerns please do not hesitate to drop EFT or myself an email.

Once last point to Two Dead Dogs - You are correct EFT don't own their aircraft, they are leased as required from Ari Ben Aviator. A common practice in aviation. This enables EFT to keep costs low and remain in a financially strong position during any downturn in the industry.

The fleet of aircraft now consists of 12 BE76 Duchess, 10 C-172, 1 PA28 Arrow and 1 C-152 (owned by EFT).

Mark Collins.

[TwoDeadDogs]

Hi all
Mark, I am well aware that many schools and airlines lease their aircraft. I regard it as sub-honest to claim "our school, our fleet, our facilities",etc and then turn up to find that all EFT own is the shirts on their backs and the paper in the copier.That's less than confidence-inspiring.It made me wonder what else they are telling falsies about.
You forgot to reply to my assertion about the 3 percent surcharge imposed by Aviator on foreign credit cards. No such charge applies in shops over there, apart from local sales tax. How did Aviator get away with doing that? That little nugget is not mentioned in any EFT literature.
The fact that persons doing a JAA course pay more per flight hour than FAA students is a con,pure and simple. If an FAA student flies an aircraft for X dollars and the JAA student pays 2X dollars for the same aircraft and the same quality of tuition, then the mug from Europe is subsidising the FAA student.
The lack of a sim is critical. No credible school operates today without one. If EFT UK have one, then EFT USA should have one.
With regard to accomodation, on several occasions, there were failures and instructors had to give students a roof to sleep under. That is not conducive to a good study atmosphere, to say the least.
By what you say, things have improved considerably, but I felt let down by a stream of niggles with their system and have subsequently spent my renewal euros elsewhere.
regards
TDD

[cosworth211]

Just like to add my two cents.

As anyone who has dont their homework properly you will find multiple extra costs in any sort of APP program, from the extra you have to pay for the photo for your first embassy visit to the extra FI CAA MEP rating.

I vetted a fair few UK and US schools and found hidden costs in all, however after speaking to the crew in Florida for US I found them informative, honest, and non contridictary. Yes there are hidden costs, but in fairness if you think you will get every bit of training to take the right seat in a shiny jet for $60k you need to get real.

I read a thread recently where an OFT student nearly lost his life through horrific maintenance. If a discrepancy on a website is all someone can come up with, please I advise you think about what could happen thats worse in an inferior school.

I completed my PPl at shoreham sussex flying club, which is EFT's UK base, and they are the best bunch of guys and proffessionals Ive ever met. I cannot yet comment on the facilities in Florida, but their UK base has a good simulator and approx 4 briefing rooms, and is a perfect location for completing the UK IR, with flights to Le Touquet, Bournemouth, and other airfields/ports that are actually worth bothering visiting.

I also read in this thread that there are few places left. As said before testament to a good school I pray, and the less competition the better ;)

[Bodie]

Hi guys

Don't let Mark Birkett wind you up. I've had dealings with him in the past. He is one of those people who analyse schools to death, no correction, get other people to analyse schools to death for him then moves on another school and starts all over again.

Here is the contents of a recent conversation with him (PS. the secrecy he mentions is perhaps to do with the fact this forum can be anonnymous!):

Bodie,

Well that's a cryptic email if I ever saw one! Two things occur to me;

- One, you're quite right. I have taken a serious interest in Stapleford and may still work with them yet. They appear to be an excellent school with whom I would be happy to do business. However, their only downfall, like every other UK school is the dodgy weather and high fuel prices, which in turn lead to students being unable to get as many hours (esp. ME hrs) as operators appear to want. (www.themightymarcus.com/marketresearch.html)

EFT on the other hand seem to be equally well-thought of as an FTO and yet can offer more hours for the same money as well as. So, no mystery really is there?

- Second, if we've met before why the secrecy? Who are you?

Thanks for your input anyway..

Regards

Birky




quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bodie wrote on 7th May 2005 22:05:
Mark,

From your website, and previous dealings with youself (perhaps unknown to you) you strike me as somewhat unsure of what path to take, and I wonder if you are seriously interested in EFT, since you have in the past been seriously interested in many other organisations including Stapleford.

EFT, like many other JAA training organisations in the UK and abroad offer a very high standard of training and at some point you will have to take the plunge and go for one. I also found myself overanalysing schools and checking reputation and prices but in the end you must plump for a decision and get the ball rolling, otherwise you'll be loosing your medical on age grounds!

Best if luck

Bodie


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Birky wrote on 6th May 2005 12:24:
Dear Bodie,

I saw your post on PPRUNE regarding EFT. I understand you are now there training.

I am seriously interested in EFT and wondered whether you might be willing to share your views on a number of subjects related to training there? If so, I would very, very much appreciate you dropping an email to:

[email protected]

I have about 30 questions which only someone who had been to EFT could answer. (yup, the other 6000 have been answered already!)

In return, I am very happy to share any information I have with you. (For instance, you may be interested in an employer survey I conducted here in the UK back in Jan 2005. The results were quite useful for any aspiring commercial pilots. www.themightymarcus.com/marketresearch.html )

Hope to hear from you soon,

Regards

Birky (Mark Birkett)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Birky]

Bodie,

I swear this thread is getting more interesting by the day!

According to Bodie (whoever that is) I ask people to analyse flying schools for me and then move on to others; the implication being that I enjoy wasting people's time as well as my own.

Completely not the case. (Actually, I am cheesed off that it's taking so long to find the right school and that my funding is burning a hole in my pocket).

The link you have posted to www.themightymarcus.com is no longer working (but I'll happily post the content elsewhere if asked). The information on in was a survey of 122 employers/operators in the UK which I chose to share with ppruners. Are you having a dig about that? If so, why?

Bodie, I have to confess, I have absolutely no idea who you are, no idea why you are taking a delight in remaining anonymous, and I haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about either.

You say you've had "dealings with [me] in the past"...what "dealings" exactly?

Are you sure you're on the right website? Come out of the closet Bodie, it's very friendly out here really!


Regards, Birky (Mark James Ros Birkett to be exact)

[Birky]

Re: Mark Collins' last post:

Many thanks for your last post Mark. Plenty of useful points and clarifications in it. (Had EFT's initial response to me been equally factual, polite and professional, I am sure there would have been no need for this thread).

Just an observation; it occurs to me that you have now written two lengthy posts here on PPRuNe. The only thing that baffles me is that the original errors on the website are still there after yet another week has gone by.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.flyeft.com/library/app_schedule.pdf

(ME hours are still incorrect)

http://www.flyeft.com/inside_eft/accommodation.html

(Accommodation still shown as included in the APP price)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Given the amount of effort you are prepared to put into defending EFT here, perhaps they should put you in charge of editing the website too? ;)

Alternatively, given that I once ran a web development business, perhaps I should offer to make the edits for EFT myself.

Ah well, nevertheless, thank you again for a considered response.

Regards

Birky :ok:

[Antonio Montana]

Out of interest Birky, how long have you been looking for a school?

[Birky]

Antonio

Since November 2004 or thereabouts I think. Several reasons for that:

- Saving the difference between what I can borrow and what it is likely to cost.

- Taking a good number of trial lessons to see how flying really feels.

- Conducting a survey directly with UK employers to see just how my job prospects look, given that I am 40.

- Arranging a C1 medical.

- Researching SA, NZ, US and UK flying schools as thoroughly as possible to help decide on the best route to an ATPL

- Warming my wife up to the whole idea

Why do you ask?

Birky

[boredaccountant]

Birky,

The amount of time you have wasted posting on this website, running a fine comb through every single irrelvant detail.... you could have already been halfway to a fATPL.......

[Biz]

.....and BoredAccountant, instead of wasting your time involving yourself in a slanging match which helps nobody, you could have invested your time in assisting with genuine responses.

You must realise that it is not everyday somebody invests a vast sum of money to re-train. I understand that people wish to seek others opinions, and Pprune has always been a good forum to investigate them. I'm not 'having a go.' Just tired of seeing people put-down so frequently on Pprune. I tolerate and do not mind reading, and where I can, assisting people in any way. It should be human nature, not to mention good practice for your future job, to help & tolerate others.

['I' in the sky]

Birky,

Going back to your original message which started the thread I would think the only constructive route you can take from here is with Trevor himself as it was his e-mail to which you seem to have taken offence. You have received a lot of input from other contributors which albeit genuine, hasn't really solved much.

So the question you have to be able to answer is whether or not you could be happy at EFT, which you need to be if you are going to be receptive to your training, or will it always be in the back of your mind that you are being ripped off/held back/overlooked because Trevor has apparently taken a dislike to you. If the latter is the case then that surely has to rule them out as one of your choices. Not necessarily a reflection on them or you, but you're just not compatible with each other.

IMHO to continue this thread in its present tone is just going to make you look worse in their eyes and probably them in yours so bite the bullet.

[Papa Owfa]

I couldn't agree more!

But they still won't let Farrell back on to this section of the forum!

I've been asked to intervene on his behalf.....so if whoever denied him access to the forum is around, could you at least explain to him what he has done wrong!

He assumes it's because he is irritated by Birky; hates prunster and was a little too public about that.

[prunster]

Oh really, what have I done?!

[Papa Owfa]

i think you keep throwing snide comments in his direction.....and can't see the funny side of things. He's pi**ed off with you - not that I'm sure you care but.....well, he's a nice guy

[prunster]

Such a nice guy that the mods have blocked him - go figure!!

[boredaccountant]

Hey Biz...

Wise up and get your facts right before you speak. I have invested very heavily in my time answering Private Messages to people who have sent me questions regarding various topics of training etc.... In addition, in order to save my time, I have taken at least 6 phone calls in the last 3 months from students with genuine concerns and questions who I have tried to share my own experiences and offer any help and adice I can.

The only ' slagging match ' I have ever got involved in was in this particular thread... and it was in response to commments made by other posters only directed at me.

[PPRuNe Towers]

Farrel has a few apologies to make - it's a simple as that. Bored accountant is getting close to being in the same position.

All of you will have the baffling experience of meeting other wannabees who have never heard of PPRuNe let alone this thread.

Therefore if their only souce of initial information and costings is unclear, misleading, inaccurate or false it will get hammered home here.

Is that clear enough?

The huge proportion of IT aware wanabees know how simple it is to change text in a website. Therefore they are reading this thread and coming to their own conclusions as to EFT's response to genuine and accurately stated concerns.

The same goes for the repeated complaints year after year regarding NAC and e-mail. Pulling up the drawbridge an adopting a defensive seige mentality hugely harms a business no matter how good the training is.

You don't get it do you - you expect folks to accept your anonymous claims yet ignore the evidence on the website they can see with their own eyes.

Stupid, stupid, stupid. My 11 year old can make the changes - why can't EFT? Even more importantly - why haven't they?

Regards
Rob

[Papa Owfa]

Farrell's apologies can be found below:


"Dear Prunster
I am so very sorry for saying that I wanted to shove your left-hand seat up your a*se and slagging off your 52 years of experience in this business. It was immature and unprofessional and therefore I apologise to you unreservedly.

Kind Regards

Wayne"


"Dear Birky
You have the God-given right to spend your time whatever way you want. I am sorry for saying that your attitude of believing everything you read would result in a CFIT incident because you would rather take a misprinted approach plate as fact, then what the guy on approach was telling you.
Again, I apologise to you unreservedly.

Wayne"

"Dear Pprune Towers
I know you have better things to do than having to sort out and delete my comments.
I apologise to you unreservedly too.

Wayne"

"Dear Ppruners
I know that some of my recent comments have been offensive to some of you. I know that if I feel that someone else is being an idiot or just wasting server space, that that is not really any of my business and I should therefore keep my mouth shut about it and not verbally attack people for being themselves.
I apologise to all of you unreservedly.

Wayne"


He hopes that these apologies will allow him access to the training forum once again and he promises to censor himself from now on.