QF Bid Period 238

[Pro Golfer 69]

Yet another lie has been told. All those QF long haul Australian based cabin crew (especially the juniors) who were told that they would not suffer financially as a result of the opening of the London base. If I recall the General Manager of Cabin Crew saying that talk of a $20,000 a year lose in pay was ridiculous and that all cabin crew would still have access to destinations with generous allowances. Well have a look at the rosters of junior based cabin crew out of Sydney for bid period 238. Gone are the the LHR and FRA patterns, replaced by 150 hours of AKL returns, CNS returns, 2 day Perth’s and Mumbai’s. Look’s like at least 20k to me!!

[Nihao]

Permanent recruitment into long haul hasn't been for ages so what is a junior? Does 5 years in long haul still mean you are listed as a junior?

[qfcsm]

Not sure what happened to 238 but everyone is spewing about it.

Have heard there is talk of a massive sick-out in protest.

Not sure of the date but the talk is day one of BP238 to skip the week 8 pay protection.

Nothing to do with the FAAA as they have nothing to do...! Well it appears that way anyhow.

Anybody else hear about this protest?

[DEFCON4]

It will be called a pattern pamphlet

[Machinegun Fellatio]

1.The voting up of EBA6
2.The treachery of shorthaul
3.The absolute stupidity of the previous FAAA executive aka "the 3 blind mice".
EBA6 spelt the death knell and WE voted it up .We have no one to blame but ourselves...we should have taken industrial action..too late ..spilt milk.Time for an exit strategy.

[jakejet]

I agree bid period 238 is beyond belief, I have been allocated so many day trips that my roster looks like a short haul roster.

I do not do one day trips, It actually costs me money, looks like I will not be feeling well for most of this roster.

I agree with all the above, it was the treachery of the short haul union that "screwed us",

In the meantime as our flying changes, the FAAA is talking to the media about pantyhose and uniform shirts, who f@@@@ing cares, comments like that only reaffirms the public perception that we are petty.

[Pro Golfer 69]

Nihao there is no doubt now that the seniority system has become completely unfair for those who have started flying in the past 5 years. A long haul flight attendant who started at the beginning of 2001 has now a whole 81 people below them!! Nearly 5 years for 81 places, now there’s progression for you! The company has also made it clear that there will be no permanent recruitment in Australian based Long Haul for the foreseeable future. The laughable thing is that when you talk to seniors they all say ‘you have to do your time Blah blah blah!’ It’s a load of rubbish, juniors are going nowhere. Anyway rumour has it the seniority system will be going for the next EBA, if that’s the case I’ll be voting YES! It’s time to get rid of the dead wood!

[jakejet]

Pro Golffer,
In a way I agree with you about the seniority system, but what about people like myself, I have been flying for a long time, and Im in a category that makes me junior, I could drop back to being a f/a but obviously I dont want to, yet if they abolish the senioity system I will have spent the last 11 years in my category doing crap trips and the next 10 years doing carp trips as the seniority system has been aboished, yet all those junior CSS and CSM that have only been doing the job for 5 years or so will get those good trips that are left and that I have been waiting for.

[White Pointer]

If the seniority system was challenged in a court it would not stand up for rostering practices as it would be deemed discriminatory.

However, the union could never try and change it because it would upset all the senior collegues.

[Pro Golfer 69]

Jake I see your point and it would be very advantageous for those junior CSS’s and CSM’s no doubt about it. One would hope though that if the system was scrapped you would get a mixed bag of trips so you would be better off in the long run. I would assume that rosters would be constructed with long and short trips, trips with good allowances and not so good. This is probably ridiculously unrealistic! I mean progression in your category will most likely becoming to a complete stand still as well. For me personally I just want back to back LHR trips and I’m happy to do them for the next 20 years. I know this is unrealistic but if the company said to me we’ll give you your 3 LHR’s a roster as long as you’re happy to do a BOM or a JNB every roster as well and not call in sick for it I’d be happy as Larry!

[Machinegun Fellatio]

Come up with a satisfactory alternative for everyone and stop bitching.
How do you feel about rotating seniority?

[Pro Golfer 69]

Rotating senority would be a dream come true!

[White Pointer]

With the current situation, the junior ones who have no chance of ever getting a trip they want, a weekend off, or christmas at home will be the first ones to start leaving and finding greener pastures. As numbers begin to shrink in a couple of years, the company will just employ more contractors, casuals, etc. Bases will probably be expanded. Those at the bottom of the pile remain where they are.

Net result - those who are in the middle of the seniority pile slowly become more and more junior. Lifestyle continues it backwards slide.

Some airlines have a system whereby to do a 'good' trip (maybe high allowances, long slip time, exotic destination etc) you have to do a crap trip as well (ie JBurg, Bombay etc). The current rostering practices are causing problems for a lot of people for whom there is no escape.

A full rotating seniority system would be completely voted down by senior people, so why not a system that allocates flying more fairly. Perhaps everyone in order of seniority gets allocated one trip, before moving back up to the top of the pile and allocating a second trip. Therefore, all the highly desirable trips are allocated in the first round, the next most desirable in the second round, etc. Some resemblence of seniority is therefore kept, and the junior people at least get one or two more decent trips a roster.

Will duck back into my cave now as am expecting a wave of abuse for suggesting anything other than the seniority system as it stands. But for someone who has spent a lot of time in the bottom 5% of seniority, with no prospect of ever moving out of that band, unless things change I will be seeking alternative employment in the future.

[Machinegun Fellatio]

Everyone has different preferences.Personally I don`t care where I go as long as I can have certain days off.At present I am away every weekend to achieve this end.Having worked under an allocated roster system what we currently have is better.We have become too destination oriented.I am half way up in my category and have done crap for nearly 20 years.I knew what I was getting into when I applied for a promotion and it has never bothered me ..I have taken the good (not much of that)with the bad(plenty of that)Whatever changes are made someone is going to be unhappy.
Rotating seniority appears to be the most fair.You may not however get the highest seniority over Christmas or your Birthday..It will still be the luck of the draw.
Allocating flying more fairly ...what does that mean?An old cliche"one persons food is another persons poison"
At the end of the day we all still get paid.If your life is predicated on allowances more fool you.

[AintNoMtnHiEnuff]

"unless things change I will be seeking alternative employment in the future."

I was just wondering what 'greener pastures' you think are out there.

Do you mean Australian? Virgin? or JetStar? Or going offshore with Emirates et al?

I guess it just depends on what are your priorities.

A fulltime permanent position within the airline industry in the best paid division (LH) would be first choice for a lot of crew about to complete an 11 month contract with QF ( including myself) and the hundreds of MAM casuals currently hoping for something, but unfortunately out of the question for the foreseeable future.

Do you REALLY TRULY beleive that you will achieve a better job/lifestyle elsewhere given your qualifications and experience?

Yes, there are a lot of problems with QF...seniority for one, shocking morale.

But at the end of the day, you still have a permanent well-paid job in the airline industry.

You do not have to move to fnq, you do not have to clean the aircraft at the end of the flight, you do not have to do toilet dumps ( Airforce Crew Attendants), you do not have to move to London, you have not had your base pay reduced, you do not have to wear orange, you have meals to serve, you are potentially getting more crew per flight to LAX, you get paid more than $50,000pa and have more days off than the average Australian per month for that salary range, you have horizontal rest on long range flights ( with blankets! and pillows! and a curtain so you aren't awoken by light or other crew!), you get Staff Travel benefits- not only for yourself but a nominated partner!!!!), you get to work for a bit then rest for a bit, then work some more and then more rest and its paid for, you don't stay in 4 star hotels...would you like me to go on?????????????

Enjoy it while it lasts because you are all sure as hell going to lose what you have sooner than later.....

[jakejet]

dear AintNoMtnHiEnuff
you meantioned all the conditions above, how in the hell do you think we got those work conditions, they are now being eroded by ***** like you.
I have always tried hard to write good reports for the 11 month contractors hoping that they be made permanent, reading your post made my blood boil, in your case im glad your contract is nearind its end, people like you have no idea how we had to fight for those conditions, yet you and your fellow contractors are the first the whinge and whine about not being permanent, what do you think we are fighting for! Permanent jobs !!!!!

[Franck]

Hey jakejet

Would you please explain how qf contractors are the cause of your eroding conditions and how are 'we' fighting for permanent jobs?

Regards

[White Pointer]

By greener pastures I meant leaving the industry altogether (putting 5 years of part time uni study and previous work experience into practice). Not going to another airline. QF has the balance of lifestyle (living in Aus), and relatively a good payscale when compared to the same job with others. Just unfair rostering practices in the current climate.

Sure I can earn over $50K with no qaulifications and experience, but the lifestyle is only going to get worse, and on a relative scale the pay is only going to get worse in the years to come. Gone are the days where we could earn more than university graduates in law, medicine and engineering could in their first years out in the workforce, and travel the world having a good time.

Enjoy it while it lasts. Protect it if you can.

[jakejet]

franck,
you better read my post properly, I cant see anywhere that I have written that contractors are eroding our conditions, I am referring to an individual that will accept anything, as as far as fighting for them, well I can assure you that the FAAA and many F/A want all those people to be permanent.
Its in all our interest that these people are permanent.

[Jet_Black_Monaro]

Welcome to your moment of truth.

You have priced (and performed) yourselves out of a job.

[qfcsm]

Well to me Greener Pastures means this:

I have doing this stuff for more than 16 years and I have accumulated 1 year of sick leave (maximum), 6 months of long service leave and the usual annual leave.

I am about to enjoy my semi-retirement from QF by doing my own "burning" of my leave entitlements.

I am about to get very sick from time to time and it will be legally certified.
And I will go sick just before any forced leave meaning that the forced leave will have to be re-credited and taken at my discretion, not QFs.

So that should see me through the next 12 months or so till this slaughter of conditions and morale is finished - based on the fact that no conditions or morale will be left to destroy!

And then I will come back and do the absolute basic job until I am ready to leave. I will not leave until I am too old and shaky to hold the Cognac bottle. If QF management think that I will depart because they changed the playing field, they can think again. I will bide my time here doing the bare, disengaged minimum.

And if contract crew think they will someday get a run at a permanent slot - think again. You ain't getting mine till I die! Most permanent crew I know also feel the same way.

Welcome to the new world…!

[Jet_Black_Monaro]

qfcsm, your post demonstrates EVERYTHING that is wrong with the attitude of QF longhaul crew.

No wonder your employer wants to get rid of all of you.

[qfcsm]

Bring it on!!!!

Anyhow FORDS RULE OK>>>!!!

[Jet_Black_Monaro]

:hmm:

[jettlager]

jbm,

given that you are a virgin blue FA.

What exactly is your "beef" with QF longhaul fa's?

QFCSM,

you have described the actions I'll be taking perfectly.

Costello recons we should be working until 70.....

Bring on the zimmer frames.

Jettlager

[Jet_Black_Monaro]

I have no beef, I just enjoy seeing you tall poppies getting cut down.

And you ARE being annihilated by the QF Management and there is nothing you can do about it.

I am enjoying every moment of watching you guys being dragged into reality. I just can't wait for the next instalment.

Bring it on, as has been said earlier

[Gomam]

qfcsm im sorry i dont agree with what you are saying, if u hate it so much just leave then?

instead u decide to make your life miserable, and get bitter and twisted as each day passes.

im with jetblackmonaro on this one. Go and get a real job 9-5 monday to friday no bands, no staff travel, no allowances, no fantastic lifestyle.

Look at all the ex ansett people in QF, how thankful they are to have a job.

Its the mentality of certain people within the group, who feel the company owes them, yet they are able to write their own rosters, and enjoy a salary only others dream about, for the work they do.

i think a reality check is in need for some people, and i hope one day you sit back and realise how good it really is.

[r3please]

Gomam

Why should loyal employees who have been with the company for years be forced out of a job?

They have every right to protect our hard earned conditions.

BTW-I suggest you read the appropriate EBA before posting comments relating to band payments. Long haul crew do not receive them.

[Machinegun Fellatio]

Get a job with a real airline and get rid of the envy ..its not very becoming.

[TSSOV]

r3please - "loyal"

hahahaha

[Franck]

Hi Jakejet

I assumed when you made the comment "being eroded by *****like you" you were referring to contractors in the broad sense.

I would still like to know how or what the FAAA and the likes are doing to achieve permanent positions.

Cheers.

[jakejet]

sure, give them a call and they will inform you, better still what are you doing to ensure that your job will be permanent?

[HoHum]

Children, Children, children!!!!
Enough of the slagging off at each other.
It is time that some of you came to the understanding that the industry has and will always change. Remember the words- "an ever changing and dynamic industry" - Ring any bells???!!!

Yes, many of you have started in they heyday when trips were long and fun and conditions were better - but now-a-days it is all about shareholders, profits and being financially viable against the competition.
It is also a very hard industry to get into and the airlines are making it that much harder to get into a full time position with all the perks. - MAM's, contracts, even LCCs etc These days it is better to take what you can if you have a passion enough about flying, so I understand the situation others are in.

But I prompt you to think of the attitude that many have, and think of what happened to Ansett workers. AN had great conditions, bad management ( -yeah ) but at the end of the day - they could not compete against the likes of Impulse/ Virgin Blue and QF ( who could only do this by adjusting its conditions - Mam's etc) These companies showed that they could be more competitive and the result was that they hurt Ansett. This is and will always happen the world over - so while we don't want to lose all the perks and enjoyment of the positions, we have to remember that we have to compromise too - otherwise - it may just be us looking for positions elsewhere.

QFSCM - yeah - you have been lucky to have had a great career spanning that long but NO, QF does not owe you anything!!! Every industry has to change - because it is us - the public (meaning you and I) who want things when we shop, purchase etc.
I can probably safely assume that you are one of the people who have shopped on weekends, late at night with 24hr shopping, do your banking at weekends, gone to the movies etc - well - think of the conditions of those workers who didn't have to do that in the past!!!! They had to move with the times.
And on the subject - how many times do you pay full fare when you fly? - It is great to have staff travel -fantastic savings!!! - but think of the ublic - the less of them who can afford to fly - the less aircraft and staff are needed - want to be out of a job?

Yeah - it ain't necessarily fair - but - move on and enjoy what you can of everything. If you don't want to enjoy what is left of your job - then maybe look at what else is out there - I can assure you that there isn't much else out there which you would like. Let someone else in who is enthusiastic and prepared to enjoy the ride that your job offers them. To them, it would probably be their best dreams - although to you it is your nightmare.
And sure, fight for some things but within perspective - the future wont stand still for anyone :( Sorry to break it to you.


All the best to all.:ok:

[jettlager]

hohum indeed,

interesting that you are in support of the "shafting" that is occuring to airline employees industry wide by senior executives greedy for more performance bonuses.

Brand new member and first post as well.

Myself and other operational employees will be looking foward to more of your learned and no doubt balanced/impartial advice.

In line for a bonus yourself ?
No...........? You represent the worst kind.
Those employed to do the bidding for those that are.

Have a nice day
Jettlager:ok:

[Jet_Black_Monaro]

I agree JL. I do look forward to their next post as the opinion expressed is well thought out and presented.

There is no hope for you and qfcsm, you are clearly quite bitter at your employer which is a shame because that attitude is what fuels QF's desire to do you all over.

Which they are doing, and I am enjoying watching it happen.

[jettlager]

jbm,

Oh gee.........
I liked your first response much better.

laugh.........I nearly answered a call bell.

Have a nice day.

Jettlager:ok:

[jakejet]

jett,
I think HOhum is another of kylie's stooges, only he is capable of writing such crap, !!!!

[Jet_Black_Monaro]

The first response stands, I'm glad you saw it because I meant it.

JL, you too made your first post once. It was the 29th October last. This happened to coincide with another member getting booted off that day after the moderator had this to say about them

"Sadly, Left2primary has now been banned from this thread, and forum, following unwarranted personal attacks on moderators.

I imagine that it is unlikely that others might share his/her views.."

The moderator went on to say -

"Good Luck to all in QF during these difficult times - If you're going to fight them, you'll need to find yourselves rather more adult advocates than the various problem posters that have posted here so regularly."

It is clear by your extreme left wing views that you are one and the same person.

[go_dj]

Some interesting input to this thread, another scenario worth thinking about is that on July 1st the coalition gain control of both
the Senate as well as Reps and can pass legislation from years gone past that was rejected by the Senate, the one for some here to worry about is the "Unfair dissmisal law" being abolished, when and if it is enacted gives any employer the power to hire and fire at will, could be that Dixon is waiting for this to occur and the reason why there is an oversupply of F/As in MAM for a possible 'Spill and Fill".

[Jet_Black_Monaro]

I had a friend who worked at AN many years ago who had her job's responsibilities re-written. She then had to reapply for her position as it was a "new position" and her old job no longer existed.

Although the job description and position title changed, it was essentially the same job.

Reason? To get rid of a few people in her department the company no longer wanted working for them.

It has evolved as a shrewd way around unfair dismissal laws to get rid of unwanted employees.

[peanut pusher]

Nice cheap shot at QF long haul
Rejected many times were we ???
Couldn't get in ??????
Like seeing tall poppies fall, your words
Wait till uncle Chris and his new team have remodeled your role and see how uncle Dick's funky airline becomes a thing of the past.
Sure we can fall a little but when your working for the bottom of the heap you can't really fall any further. Go DJ or shall I call it Patricks freight Express now ?
FU

[sydney s/h]

Whats this talk about short haul treachory?

Grow up and stop blaming us for things that have happened. I didnt vote for the past EBA and no one i know in Syd did either. I dont want to do HKG, SIN, NRT etc... i work in s/h so i dont have to do that style of flying. Give me PER, ADL, rock returns anyday! But unfortunatley we have been given these trips so we do our best and carry out the duty.

As for the comments made by some of you regarding doing the minimum onboard... i would be pretty peeved to be a pax on your flight paying $12,000 to go business class to LA and have some disgruntaled F/A looking after you.
The public has done nothing wrong...why punish them??

[jakejet]

your comments have been negated by one simple fact, the president of your union, has left you and gone to LHR for the basing, so much for solidarity, and you wonder why we emotional for regional flying.
According to your union web site there have been mailers sent to crew mailboxes, someone let us know what it states!

http://www.faaadomestic.org.au/domestic/qantas/general/qf09-05.htm
:confused:

[sydney s/h]

Jakejet,

i can assure you, nothing was left in my mailbox and i asked my friends and no one i know got that letterbox drop. We all saw that letter from the union 1 month ago but wasnt aware of any letter.

Obviously some people did, i wonder who? Doesn't appear to Sydney base, or if it was it must have been a very specific mailbox drop to certain crew.

[jakejet]

i wonder what it said, looks like they must have copped a lot of flak

[Franck]

Hi Jakejet

I don't know what I can do to get a permanent position. I certainly do not think the union has any idea either so I won't waste their time or mine. However, if anyone out there is fighting for permanent jobs for contractors, casuals or any group please tell us how and where so we can join the cause!

regards

[jettlager]

Franck,

my advice would be to make your vote count at the next Federal election by supporting the side of politics that is not hell bent on casualising the workforce.

Jettlager

[HoHum]

Gee - the bitterness displayed in these posts is amazing - no wonder so many people say that some of the QF crew are nasty - here's the proof!!!!
The only thing that annoys me more, is that unfortuantely I am then dragged into this stereotype because of people like you - as I too, am a QF employee!!!!
Difference is that I love my job and have done so for many years!!!

Jetlagger - I never said I was in support of shafting ANY employee in order to increase the executives' bonuses - but do you really think that this is something only unique to QF?? - get real!!!!
Yes - it was my first post - Oh no, heaven forbid !!! - but just FYI - I am not new to the industry.
How dare I put MY voice forward when you are doing it so well for everyone else !!!???

And Jakejet - I am no-ones' - stooge - just realistic.

Maybe you might both want to come on the ride - living in the REAL world can be fun!!!!
oh, and maybe you might want to read my last post in full. Every industry around us has changed and is constantly changing - why should QF be any different??? Maybe you should take your toys and run away - 'casue you don't seem to like the game being played..

Cheers - and best of luck - sucking on those lemons all day to keep up that bitterness must be horrible!!!!:* :ooh:

[jakejet]

Dear Hohum

so you do work for us, what a shame, please leave!
By the way I love lemons, mmmm.

[Jet_Black_Monaro]

peanut pusher, I have never applied to QF ever. Too many union extremists and company haters in LH would make the job miserable, as I am sure you make others when they have to listen to your diatribe on board.

Chris has made it very clear to all at VB he is very happy with the current structure of the company and the management and will take a hands off approach to Virgin Blue.

We are already at world's best practise, being paid a fair days pay for a fair days work. So we have nowhere near as much to fear as QF LH crew do.

[HoHum]

sadly - I must say the same to you - we need to get rid off all the "dead-wood" in the company like you.

But I have no fear in saying that your time will come - QF will simply push people like you out with such negative issues and let fresher people who can do their job properly get in and do it and make it worhwhile for passengers who do try and chose one of the worlds' great airlines!!! That reality check may come quicker than you expect.

Once again - your bitterness does not go un-noticed by myself or half the travelling public and others here.

See you at the local Myer counter spraying perfume/ aftershaves!!!:E You'll look really smart in the uniform!!!

On realisation - I take aback all those comments - as I have just realised that I have simply lowered myself to your level of pathetic slagging - Oh the shame.......... :(

At least I can console myself that I am happy in my job and have been for many years.....and will for many years to come.:ok:

"Crew - arm doors for departure";)

[Machinegun Fellatio]

What a pair of self absorbed little turkeys you are....no children,no partner,no life.As you get a little more wisdom and insight you will understand that there is more to life than work.
No one really denies that the aviation industry is changing andd needed to change.It is the deceipt,beligerence,intimidation and maliciousness that is associated with it.I refer in particular to Qantas.Rather than bring the workforce forward and help them embrace the changes the Qantas "troughers" have used corporate thuggery.(don`t ask me to enjoy being beaten up).They have been assisted in this by some of our own colleagues.This has resulted in an enormous amount of frustration anger and resentment.Hence the enormous amount of venom in these forums.It is particularly directed to individuals outside of Qantas who have little or no understanding of events taking place.All areas of QF are upset and insulted not just crew.The clowns who run QF have no idea of how to engage their workforce.It is a good company poorly run by individuals interested only in their own hip pockets.Why shouldn`t employees feel the same ?
Make comment, sure.Make sure your information is accurate and do away with the sarcasm ...we get enough of that from our employers.
These forums act as a means of venting our spleens.
Rest assured the Qantas customers do not suffer because of the issues we have with management.98% of us give 110%.The other 2 % have slipped thru`the recruitment net.
Qantas enjoys a reputation built by long serving employees not the visitors who have been here less than a minute.

[Jet_Black_Monaro]

No children?
No Partner?
No life?

What in the world does that have to do with what we are talking about?

[Machinegun Fellatio]

It determines your perspective of what we are talking about!!This deadwood that you talk about have a different perspective.
What about the rest of what I said.....Read it in its entirety and stop being selective about the parts but rather view the sum total.Then form a response.

[TightSlot]

Machinegun Fellatio If you wanted JBM to ignore something you wrote, then why write it in the first place? You make a whole series of assumptions about others, which may or may not be true, but certainly are irrelevant and provocative and then wonder why they take offence. And this after a clear warning and thread ban in another area of this forum. Your talents are doubtless appreciated more elsewhere. Forum banned.

Next...

[jb_flyer]

OK Im going to emerge from the safety of the non posting bunker to say simply this:

We have a Liberal Govenrment in power who are intent on making it easier for large corporations to dispose of employees for little or no reason when it sees fit to. Add this to a Qantas board who are focusing on cost cutting, and one way to do this is casualise(sp?) the workforce. If everyone is on 11 month fixed term contracts, or casuals working for a labour hire company, then there is no holidays to worry about , no long service leave etc.

So my answer to HoHum is this, sure the company may be looking at getting rid of the dead wood, but who or what will they replace it with? Not a permanant employee I bet. All making life harder and harder to get to work for this airline who embodies the "Spirit of Australia"

But yes, as one ageing crooner once said, these "times they are a changin'". But dissapointing none the same.

JB

*ducks back behind cover of bunker and braces for the barrage*

[flugenluft]

WOW! What a great argument. The QF longhaul crew that post on here are in serious denial. JBM, I agree with you that the extremist views are off the planet. They obviously haven't done a real days work for a very long time if they think their opinion is mainstream. It's scary how out of touch with reality some longhaul crew are. Ashame they will probably drag a lot of fantastic crew down with them.

[Pappa Smurf]

Just look in the employment sections to see how many job agencies have appeared in the last few years.
I know many industries that hire from agencies,mining being a good example.
Companies still do in house employment for experienced people with a good background,but the lesser jobs where they can be trained come from an agency when required.

Most reasons being.1 If they are useless ,arrogant,s--t stirrers etc they can be replaced without any legal troubles--unfare dismissal etc
2... If there is a downturn in the industry they can be put off to bring staff levels back to required numbers.

Most companies ,when natural attrition reduces the work force ,then give the so called casuals a chance to join the company.

Lets face it---if you owned a company and another 911 or SAR,s happened again why pay 100% of staff when you only need 80%.

Main reason for casuals as i see it.

[Chicken or Fish?]

Ok..

You join QF LH as a full time employee expecting to fly overseas.
At the same time your friend joins QF SH as a full time employee to fly domestic only.

Both people make a commitment to QANTAS based around their personal circumstances and working desires.

Now how the hell does it work out that in BP238 the LH employee does 16 MEL - PER returns whilst the SH employee does only HKG and NRT?

:mad: :mad: :mad:

[west coast girl]

just arrived on the london base in the third wave and have completed my first BKK . All good. great people ,good flying . looks like a nice place to work.
I notice all the same old union thugs and bullies are still on these posts just under different names.
thuggery and intimidation are union as well as management strategies. as I mentioned before, faaa union officials were verbally abusing perth based crew who were contemplating the move to london. thank goodness they were brave enough to stand up to these thugs and are now living their flying dream

[jettlager]

Chicken or Fish,

of course it's all about senoir executive performance bonuses.

Shorthaul have agreed to undercut the longhaul award so more and more flying is farmed off to them.

The language skills that have traditionally been important in these markets [and offered by the competition] pale into insignificance when performance bonuses are at stake.

Those running QF care for nothing except lining their own pockets before they jump ship or retire.

Tagalog, Mandarin, Cantonese, Japanese.
Great skills for an international FA to offer their passengers when doing Perth turn arounds.

You should hear what the groundstaff in HKG say about the arrangements. They of course, CARE about the airlines reputation.

Jettlager.

[west coast girl]

can't believe the sad sack attitude on this post
I've worked for compass 1 & 2 and ansett
most senior qf L/H crew I've flown with appear to have an atlas box permenantly attached to their arse
a L/H csm's idea of a hard day's work is having to read 3 newspapers at his work station instead of 2. he may not get time to fit in a movie
leave guys , give the job to someone who wants it

[GalleyHag]

That is so true, if QF want to send us up to Asia at least give us the skilled language crew to undertake the job and deliver "exceptional" service. I have done a few HKG and MNL trips with no language speakers and its just downright Humiliating.

[flugenluft]

QF obviously don't want to use their LH crew because they are too expensive and have bad attitudes. It is cheaper to leave them at home. They are not only too costly but judging by the views expressed here, they are an embarrassment to the brand.

[GalleyHag]

I have to disagree with you on the attitude aspect as I suspect most of the long haul crew that post on here are either CSM/CSS/BFirst obviously QF dont feel the same as you, otherwise they wouldnt hold these positions. In fact I bet they are the poster boys and girls of the brand in the real world.

I do however agree it comes down to cost.

Prune is an avenue where crew can express whatever feelings they choose (within the rules of prune of course) and personally these crew with bad attitude as you say have shown me another side of the coin, both Australian and LHR based crew.

You have to appreciate these are generally long term employees that should be respected regardless of your personal view and 99.9% of the time they put across valid points and arguments. If you look through their posts its generally directed at the company and not other crew (oh ok the odd short haul and LHR pot shot from time to time, but do you blame them) but I highly doubt the customer would ever be effected by these crew. I am 100% confident they are the professionals within the long haul division just like all of us.

They are venting in a forum that allows such a debate and good on them. A lot of crew and wannbe crew can gain valuable informationm from these people if you look past some of the more colourful comments.

If you messaged these people with a problem or question I bet you they would come back to you and help you out regardless.

You have to appreciate their flying is fast disappearing and they are rightly worried about their future both career and financial.

There is probally more short haul and casual crew with worse attitude than what is displayed on here by long haul crew.

Sure shoot me down in flames but could I care less - NO!

[west coast girl]

the reason the HKG route out of PER has gone to the dogs is because short haul crew are flying it . cheese & chalk flying.
S/H wouldn't know a head set stowage if they tripped over one and an ABO & an ASO belong in the magazine rack.
the FAAA was committed to closing down bases
they should be congratulated on their deft work in perth.
thanks to their complete indifference and neglect of this base (dispensation after dispensation) , open antagonism to the union reps out there- it will soon be shut.
now if they could just do something about BKK and AKL.
no wonder some of us opted for London.

[cartexchange]

galleyhag, well said, I wish more crew from both sides had your way of thinking, you are so right crew on these posts are writing their concerns about management not about other crew, the people that concern me are people like west coast girl, what a shocking attitude towards other crew both short haul and long haul, and what she said about the union neglect on the perth base is pure fiction.
a message to WCG, tone it down,be more supportive to other crew, 95% of them are great, I think you should reasses your career path.

[Butterfield8]

These were some of the points Machine Gun Fellatio was trying to make before being Red Carded.At least we got rid of Hugo Grunt as a consolation.

[west coast girl]

cart exchange, don't get me wrong.
I'm not anti-union per se.
Its just that I think the FAAA has become complacent and bloated.
Theoretically a union comes into being to protect the weakest employees against the excesses and greed of capitalism implemented by manangement. fair enough.
however over the few years I've been with the longhaul division of the FAAA I have only ever seen the union defend the drunks, thieves and serial malingerers. people you had worked with and couldn't wait to get rid of. ones that somehow had gotten under the interview radar.
they go in for a discipinary clause 11 with a union rep and come out laughing looking forward to their next drink onboard or their next bottle of booze they will pinch from the aircraft or just going sick as they usually do.
the union has lost its way.
its job is to improve and maintain our working conditions -not to protect every useless malingerer that most of us couldn't wait to see the back off. my hard earned money does not need to be put to these perhaps well intentioned but misdirected causes.
the union has become an oasis for officials and good old fashioned aussie bludgers.
I'm not anti- union . I just believe we need to re-invent it.
maybe we'll do it here in london.

[cartexchange]

Ok, you're starting to explain yourself, Hmm I know what you mean and I too have seen the union defend some real a##seholes, and it really annoyed me, however I have also in all my years seen them defend people that have been bullied by QF management and lets face it there has been more bullying than drunks.
I also know for a fact that a lot of times the union has not gone in full bat for someone as they wanted to get rid of them, only to see management back down and put in the too hard basket, a lot of times the old PDM's have referred certain individuals to upper management for dismissal only to see their recommendations rejected.

As far as the Perth base goes, the union tried to help those people out as much as they could, as far as QF was concerned they did not care,to them close the base down and let them go, do you really think that management would have cared about the Perth people, they used to call you people over there the "Pentecostal's because you would walk around with a silly smile on your face and not know what you're smiling about.

As far as the FAAA goes I have a lot of issues with them, I still cant get over the fact they have given dispensation for JFK/LAX what a bunch of &^%^& and then what do they do, send out a pantyhose survey.

Anyway WCG, have faith in your fellow crew, not management, they will never assist you, all they care about is the bottom dollar, they are bonus driven.

[qfcsm]

Just got back and hey I agree with you guys totally.

So glad to hear that others are seeing the irrelevance of our beloved FAAA.

Why is it that short haul, AO and JetStar are getting the long haul work?
Why do you think that QF management have said "We won't talk to the long haul FAAA?"

Unfortunately it is because our long haul FAAA have misrepresented us.

I do not condone what QF are doing but surely it is easiest to break the weakest link...!

[cartexchange]

please read my previous post properly, although im pi$$ed of with the dispensation and a few other things, the current people in the association are trying to correct all the mistakes by the previous "elected" officials, as we all know it was them that stated this whole scenario.
What I was trying to say is all this squabbling between us is fruitless and serves no purpose, lhr base against aussie and s/haul etc, we are playing into managements hands.
Yeah sure we all look after the customers on our flights but remember this they get off the flights and they dont care about us or our conditions, they dont care about how buggerred you are!, the only people that understand this are other crew,we have to start respecting each other first.

[RaverFlaver]

Cartexchange,

you are so right crew on these posts are writing their concerns about management not about other crew, the people that concern me are people like west coast girl, what a shocking attitude towards other crew both short haul and long haul, and what she said about the union neglect on the perth base is pure fiction.

That's a slight contradiction isn't it? In the same paragraph even.....

Have a great day!

RaverFlaver :o)

[west coast girl]

cartxchange
are you serious?
some of the most switched on and enthusiastic f/as I've ever met came out of perth
sydney long haul cut its own throat and signed its death warrant with the hewitt survey. by their naive honesty cabin crew gave management the objective data they needed to take to the board and close down this base . 16% totally disengaged , 32% absentee employees ,turning up for work but not really there.
syd defined itself as a base of dead men walking. zombies.
management is not going to change ,no soul searching there, but cabin crew, like sheep to the slaughter - gave them the statistical data they needed to get rid of them all. very bright.
geoff believes opening new bases is the only way to inject new blood into this moribund profession.
short haul, australian airlines and jet star asia will now take over all syd long haul routes
L/H crew will be what is called "warehoused"- on the books but not used - when they are forced out through sheer frustration, jetstar asia & AA will be re - branded as Qantas with a cabin crew at half the price.
wedge business is a good description of this process.

[OZcabincrew]

"they used to call you people over there the "Pentecostal's because you would walk around with a silly smile on your face and not know what you're smiling about."

I don't think there needs to be a reason for someone smiling, there should be more of it!!!!

Oz


:O

[cartexchange]

you're right raver, badly written, but have a look at the whole post I think you get the idea, I suppose I better not post things whilst Im having a glass of red, So are you happy about your new EBA! 64% of you voted yes, hmmmm.

[RaverFlaver]

Cartexchange,

I am happy with the new EBA. Ideally I'm sure most crew would have wanted what the FAAA were trying to get, however when you compare to what we settled on against individual contracts and work place agreemnets, it is a much better deal that the crew have opted to take.

Enjoy your weekend,

RaverFlaver :)

[QF skywalker]

Raver,

Totally agree with your comments re the AO EBA. Ideally yes...we would have liked a few things to swing in our direction. But in the end I think the crew have been smart. We have priced ourselves against 'other' airlines rather than QF L/H and looked at our position universally in terms of conditions rather than cry poor at our 30% less pay than QF L/H. We were never going to get the same rate as L/H - that is why we exist - 9% over 3 years is always the going rate these days across the Qantas Group.

We have somewhat bowed to the company to ensure our survival in the global market. I guess we are what human resource managers call 'change champions.'

[jettlager]

QF Skywalker,

my understanding is that the negotiations that took place to set wages paid to AO CC always reflected the fact that they [you?] do not operate under the same conditions as QF longhaul.

You know the deal.

Single Y/C aircraft type V's Multiple type, 3 class service.

North/south flying V's multi time zone flying.

Now it seems those "differences" have been negated through your EBA to the point where AO CC will effectively be free to operate as QF longhaul are.
With no extra pay to compensate.

How will AO CC's pay/conditions compare to those of longhaul cabin crew working out of other "developed" countries ?
Airlines like British Airways, Luftansa, Swiss, JAL,Air France, United, etc, etc.

AO has only ever been a vehicle designed to drive the conditions of the mainline carrier down.

AT LEAST 30% of QF longhaul CC pay is made up of overtime, ODTA, meal allowances and long range duty allowance which are largely specific to the flying we do.

"change champions ?".............please.

Spare us the "weasel words".

Jettlager

[QF skywalker]

Jettlager - HOLD YOUR FIRE !

The 'change champion' comment was made tounge in cheek - perhaps I should have made that more clear in the post.

However, whilst I always agree with your thoughts on pprune I would like to remind you of a few things.

A) AO was set up to fly to destinations where QF could no longer make a profit. This is due largely to the high costs associated with sending a 'red tail' into certain ports - Not, as you mention to drive the conditions of the mainline carrier down. That was done years ago with the opening of the AKL and BKK bases.

B) QUOTE - How will AO CC's pay/conditions compare to those of longhaul cabin crew working out of other "developed" countries ?
Airlines like British Airways, Luftansa, Swiss, JAL,Air France, United, etc, etc.

Swissair - CLOSED ! Re-opened as Swiss with cheaper EVERYTHING.

United ? .......please.......crew voted to take a pay cut in order to ensure their survival ! I won't begin to list the steps taken by other carriers to ensure they kept operating. You and I both know that QF group employees are fed the doom and gloom stories of these other carriers via the Qantas news magazine. We have seen what these companies have had to do keep profitable and what the employees have had to do to keep their jobs.

AO crew were faced with a difficult choice. The company were moving on to the next step of individual contracts for cabin crew and the faaa were saying 'we can't get you anything more - they will not negotiate.'

In other words......sign a company agreement or sign an agreement which provided some benefit and still kept the faaa involved. What would you do ? I think it was a smart choice to sign the union agreement.

[TCM Not!]

Too true QF Skywalker. I think that by accepting the offer and keeping the FAAA involved sends a clear message to management. "We are a unionised workforce" and the scare tactics they used through the whole process, ended up having little effect. I think they will have a run for their money next time around.
The way I see it, in a few years time there will be no LH or SH. Crew will simply work for QF and do the lot, as is done in the states by airlines like United.
Don't know how they will get around EBA's and unions etc, but you can guarentee that that they have a plan.
QF crew, stay strong and give 'em hell.

[labia vortex]

The QF Mainline brand is slowly being destroyed.Dixon seems to feel that the Brand as is worth nothing.Individuals working for AO are rightly proud of their organization.But lets be clear AO is a Mexican airline employing cheap(er)labour to destinations largely designated as leisure routes.ie they have little or no potential J/C traffic and therefore low yields.It is also being used to denigrate the mainline(QF)product.
Employees at AO should understand that the hard yards regarding tourism into Australia were pioneered by Qantas and its staff.There seems to be a misguided/misinformed impression that QF staff are lazy and overpaid....wrong.The company's own performance reviews indicate that 97% of crew perform at or above the required performance standard.
The wages we are paid came about due to a system of work that was forced on us in 1988 in a trade off for the loss of 25% of our standown.
When QF was on its knees due to the Gulf War and SARS we agreed to a wage freeze and a shortened EBA...we want the company to survive and prosper.
We have been repaid by a reduction in conditions brought about by the establishment of overseas bases.We were promised by management that we would be fully consulted and advised regarding any changes affecting our work environment.We were advised via the media.This was the beginning of what has been an essentially malicious campaign by QF management against its own employees.Qantas makes a substantial profit..it is not about to go belly up.
On the operational side the quality of the product has also been attacked(regardless of the propaganda issued by the company)Breakdowns,an IFE system that doesn't work for 30 % of the time,lighting systems that continually fail,aircraft operating with full loads and 3 toilets out of 8 blocked off,special meals not being loaded, reduced loadscales the list goes on.
Please one and all understand that we will be angry and frustrated.Sniping from those outside Qantas( who are not aware of the circumstances)is largely unhelpful and smacks of tall "poppiness"Those who purport to be
(QF) employees and attack Longhaul crew are either management trolls or foolishly believe that their points of view will endear them to management(WRONG!)
I just want to do my job(and do it well)Attacks on me as a crew member are apalling and achieve nothing.These attacks emanate from other airlines and my own employer so forgive me if I get a little upset.
I do not attack other crew members(unless provoked) so do me the same courtesy and keep any uninformed/salacious opinions to yourself.
SAY SOMETHING CONSTRUCTIVE OR SAY NOTHING AT ALL!!

[cartexchange]

Labia
Have you been reading my mind, I agree with you 1000000%. most crew do as well.
thanks for your post:ok:

[TCM Not!]

Hey Labia! Why the attack?

"Employees at AO should understand that the hard yards regarding tourism into Australia were pioneered by Qantas and its staff."

A lot of crew at AO have come from Ansett, the other airline that did the "hard yards" when it came to tourism in Australia and yes we are rightly proud of the airline WE have built and job we do. I am sure if you too had found yourself without the job you love, after putting in these "hard Yards", then you too would be doing everything to protect yourself and your fellow collegues. We are a decent and intelligent bunch of people at AO.

I am sure that if you were to come and work with us you would certainly be made most welcome, unlike a lot of my friends who have found work at QF both FT and casual.
Many of them have been victimised, harrassed and made to feel like second rate citizens.
I am sure that you are not one of "those" who I am speaking of, but look at it from the other side as well.

Good luck with your flying career. It will only be as good as you choose to make it.

TCM

[RaverFlaver]

Labia Vortex -

I do not attack other crew members(unless provoked) so do me the same courtesy and keep your uninformed/salacious opinions to yourself.

Stating your opinion and then requesting others to keep their opinions to themselves is slightly ignorant. If you want to state your opinion then please let others do the same.

Employees at AO should understand that the hard yards regarding tourism into Australia were pioneered by Qantas and its staff.

I find that to be a bit of a random statement.....I for one do not go around proclaiming I pioneered tourism in Australia, and have never once heard a collegue at AO say the above either.

And I'm sorry it's not just Qantas & it's staff who pioneered tourism in Australia, there are many other groups involved.........

Cheers,

Have a good night,

RaverFlaver :)

[TCM Not!]

Hey Raver!
Couldn't agree with you more! Should have read the private message I got from Labia! NASTY!
She seems quite happy to give her opinion, but unwilling to listen to others points of view. No one said she has to accept them, but we are all entitled to them.
Time for Labia to move on I would say!

[RaverFlaver]

TCM-Not,

I can only imagine!!! Just adds further embarrassment to Labia Vortex's quote "I do not attack other crew members"......of course unless provoked or via pm!

Have a great day,

RaverFlaver :)

[RaverFlaver]

DEFCON4,

Do you care to explain this message you sent me in a pm, to which I tried to reply - however it says DEFCON4 has chosen not to recieve messages or something to that line?.......

A‚’e you and TCM Not! playing tongue sandwiches with each other?If so ..can I watch


Good night,

RaverFlaver

[argusmoon]

I think girl on girl action is being alluded to.Not really the point of this thread.

[west coast girl]

so...behind his ostensible lip service concern for industral relations, DEFCON 4 turns out to be just another creepy senior L/H Horlix man.....
be warned and beware girls............

[RaverFlaver]

I think girl on girl action is being alluded to

My thoughts too.

Kind of might not be the peep show he/she was hoping for though, as I'm a guy.

Another wild assumption......

Have a great day all,

RaverFlaver :)

[QFboi_MEL]

This is bull 13 days of MEL-PER-MEL. My understanding is that Long Haul = International flights and S/H = Domestic Flights.

I am seriously NOT happy... if this is how we're getting screwed around with BP238 think about how many domestic patterns and reserve's we're gonna get with BP239 considering the S/H Crew seem to be doing all our flying newayz, not that i'm complaining that S/H are doing NRT as i dont like the NRT pattern newayz

Please share ur views

[qcc2]

its not only mel suffers but also syd has a large increase in one day and over night trips from sh. its a joke alright but qf managers dont really give a toss how it affects lh or sh. penny pinchers try to work out upfront saving from lh doing sh trips (and reverse). however what they dont understand is that with all the changes from lh crew to short trips ther a re additional cost in administering those changes(allowances, hotels, transport,etc). but this is anothers department budget so they dont care. :sad:

[DEFCON4]

Frankfurt,Honolulu and a few other destinations are likely to go to AO once the EBA gets up...then watch your rosters become full of domestic flying.The roles of SH and LH are being reversed because its more cost effective...not good for us tho'