Advce to EK (bewildered) Hopeful [Archive]

Can't think of a name

3rd May 2005, 10:59

Dear Mr 35,

Congrats on your interview. My advice (or 2 cents worth!) is that you should, by all means, attend your interview. It will allow you a chance to look physically at Dubai (and bring your wife/significant other, so she can also), and also gain a feel for EK itself throughout the interview process. But remember, the process is run by professional people who all have opinions: that they can't tell you. They have their instructions, and their responsibility is to the company primarily, not you.

So......... no matter what you are told during that process, keep the following in mind.

Should you decide to take the job, you should plan on minimum 5 years to command, do all your financial calculations for that 5 years based on your joining salary, and assume no increase in any benefit like education, housing etc. Also assume an annual inflation rate of 5-10%. To do otherwise will give rise to expectations that may not eventuate, and you will likely get dissappointed the first time an expectation is not met.

Your best chance of enjoying your time here is to set very low expectations on the T&C front, have your own life away from work, and consider any improvement a bonus. Do your time to achieve your own goals, and move on.

I am not being negative: it's a business decision, not an emotive one. You are the "business" in this equation and should assess your own marketability and income potential over your projected time in this "business". If you work out a direct comparison between EK and your present company, using the method above, then wherever the numbers point you will be making an informed decision.

Good Luck with whatever decision you make.

Regards,

CTOAN

3holer

3rd May 2005, 13:52

Can't think of a name

Very good advise:ok: ,congrats

Global Nomad

3rd May 2005, 19:21

CTOAN

One of the best posts I have ever seen.

35North

4th May 2005, 01:37

Thanks for all the positive advice. I have been warned by others as well trust me. Is there an annual salary increment apart form the 4 week profit share? In other words are the salaries factored for inflation. Guessing from CTOANs reply, I would think not.

bigmountain

4th May 2005, 22:27

By enlarge CTOAN has made an objective assesment of Emirates.
Having said that Emirates is still one of the airlines to work for.

If salary is your prime reason for leaving then it is easy to do the math. do remember that it is tax free .

1) Emirates has an incremental salary and its 3% per year built in. Check out the recent link on PPRUne about 11% salary rise and 10% housing allowance ( incase you dont elect company furnished housing ) and car allowance.
2) If you are looking for a quick command then 3-5 yrs may be a bit too long for you. But remember that it will be on a wide body and on one of latest aircraft with all the kit you can think of.
3) Notwithstanding what you may read on the net about Emirates , the people you work with are a pleasure to work with. While Dubai people and the UAE as a nation are welcoming and tolerant ,yet also proud of their heritage. Dubai is comfortable and secure environment for you and your family.
4) Variable flight and network will challenge you with the variation in types of flying . 20 min flights across to Muscat to ultra long haul 14:00 flight s to Sydney and New York.
5) Last but not least a lot of people have left comparatively higher salaries for a better life style . Beaches , Tax free shopping , Golfing Beachcombing , Security , more time with the family , education etc.
6) some people have left . I cant blame them as this was in direct reaction to the managments poor appreciation on handling the meetings with pilots. Basically poor understanding of conflict management principals

Obvioulsy all may not agee on the above yet the Emirates still has the knack of attracting the right stuff.
I will be the first one to agree that all is not right with Emirates and in particular with flight ops .... but then if it was then what would be the fun in tuning into PPprune.

regards

Bigmountain

35North

5th May 2005, 02:07

They say that families suffer a lot with EK in that crews are constanly on long tours with little time for family. Added to this is the factoring of flying hours where a pilot can do in excess of a 100hrs and yet after factoring falls within CAA limits of under a 100hrs in 28 days. Can someone enlighten me with the facts? I have heard 8-10 days off a month with 76hrs. In a month on average, how many nights is a pilot at home with the family? I have a wife and 2 young kids and that is the main reason I ask..

fatbus

5th May 2005, 04:04

8-10 days off a month and 90-100hrs, 76hrs seems to be a thing of the past, thats when you would see @15 days off.
You hear pilots complaining of 100hrs but don't complain about the O/T that goes with it.
All in all not bad not great but not bad.
Biggest frustration I see is the constant under crewing and slow reaction to fix it or the inablitiy to fix due to the shortage of training staff thanks AAR reducing our numbers prematurely.
Cost of living has gone up alot in the last year alone,I think everyone is feeling that.
No shows and upgrades on the 777 means busy summer,lack off MMF crews means busy summer and the 330 is filling in everwhere means busy summer, could be why the upgrades we need on the bus are slow to come.

MAXMEDLO

5th May 2005, 20:32

Big mountain,

I was wondering,in your opinion whats the % of people who are really not that happy about EK,I dont think that the % on pprune is not a major % to reflect the trend of most of the company,or am I wrong?

MAX:ok:

bigmountain

5th May 2005, 21:10

Max

well if you read between the lines , most people are more dissapointed at the treatment metted out by the management . This is in light of very strong results that Emirates has just announced.

It seems while the pilot community don't have direct forum to point out their concerns , you would hope that in such circumstances Emirates would encourage a strong , objective and effective human resource department that should have its finger on the pulse , not only of its employees but also of the changing conditions in other comparable airlines/companies.
This is done apparently ever year where the compensation package is reviewed. and usually you find that the ailrine pilots get a 3% incremental step and a couple of % extra.
In this regard the Human resourcee people are dragging their feet and not really painting a correct picture . In fact they seem to be taking there cue from their higher managers and presenting a picture of bliss and harmony.
I feel that partially its about the erosion in terms and conditions , but more so, its is the way each change is presented as an improvement and the reasons forwarded to the pilots for the change that have been brought about were taken after careful analysis and it was an improvement in the package. What drives everybody round the bend and pilots included is the thought of being taken for a ride.

If the management justs came out an stated that in order to remain competitive they were resorting to these interim measure,then I'm sure you would have alot of people responding on this forum differently.

Presently the Flt Ops does not have a Head of Flight Ops (Senior Vice President) . The post is vacant since TCK was eased out . No outsider has been selected or agreed to join, while the remainder VPs are doing the job in the hope of being promoted . So nobody is really prepared to stick their neck out for the pilots in such conditions.

The crew are venting their feelings at various forums, PPRUNe, the Coffee room at the office , on the flight deck and hopefully good sense prevails and Emirates continues its expansions plans uninterrupted under a more farsighted managemnt team .

Regards

Bigmountain

Dropp the Pilot

6th May 2005, 16:47

Strange, but 95% of the people I fly with are content and 5% aren't but I think most people who have a degree of familiarity with your posts can see that you would have a highly-developed ability to bring out the worst in people.

Your degree of childish self-regard is so toe-curlingly embarassing that one is forced to avert one's eyes. Haven't you been threatening to leave a lot?

Please, PM me. I'll drive you to the airport.

White Knight

6th May 2005, 17:45

Semen splodges!! You are full of sh1t like many who post here. The ones that I have time for are the ones who put their money where their mouths are - and pull the plug if they don't like it!:E
Most pilots that I know here at EK are frustrated! But they are optimists - sure there are things that need sorting out, such as pay, upgrades, but no different to many other airlines all over the world. And before you even think of it, no, I am not management, nor am I in recruiting :{
Things wil get better - they have to if EK wants to make a go of it:ok:

Oh yeah , the next d1psh1t that wants to send me a nasty PM, why don't you come say it to my face - DON will tell you who I am!!!!!!

donpizmeov

6th May 2005, 17:48

No Don wont...not the done thing old fella.

Don

White Knight

7th May 2005, 18:07

Don - absolutely old chap:ok: :ok:

Have a good day:)

mini cooper

7th May 2005, 18:35

White Knight - take a chill pill.

Most guys at EK are optimists - they have to be, otherwise the frustrations that the company puts in their way would drive them potty. Like most people here I think that EK could be a great place to work, great route network, new aircraft etc but it is marred by the management.
SS says a few true things that may not be palatable to some, but it is a bit imature to immediately come out and say you either put up or ship out. This forum is a great way to say what you think and let off steam so you can go to work with it off your chest.

White Knight

8th May 2005, 00:45

MC - fair enough mate, however it is a tad tedious that whenever someone posts something positive or possibly good about Dubai or EK they get shot down in flames by one or two who suffer from the eternal "sky falling on their head" syndrome:yuk:

Yes, this forum is a two way thing - but because I may disagree with some comments does not put me into the "management" team:}

Dissapointed

8th May 2005, 02:57

White Knight, if you are really so very happy, then why bother posting at all? These forums are not exactly an honest SitRep are they? Whether good or bad stuff is brought up. There is always the emotional, post glass of wine rant that winds people up. You are a relatively well known Ppruner, and your posts always do look at the optimistic side, but they are too optimistic to be true. By making this place out to to be better than it really is, is just as bad as saying how ****e the place is. Therefore I would humbly suggest that you just get on with the rest of your happy career here or go back and sell cameras.

Bigmouth

8th May 2005, 08:58

35N, I posted on this subject a while ago. Here is one more thing:
One of several reasons why I told EK "thank you, but no thank you" is that everybody I talked to during the process - from the lady showing us around the first day via the guy at the training facility doing his upgrade to the chief pilot type in charge of interviewing us - gave me the impression that had they known then what they know now they probably wouldn't have made the same choices.
Even as they were trying to convince me to join.

The grass is always greener over the septic tank.

MAXMEDLO

8th May 2005, 14:07

Well guys,as I have said before I am waiting for my interview results at EK and I hope I get through,but I'd like to point out that all what you are bothered of is relative to where you used to work before you joined EK,it's only human nature to seek what is better,but its also human nature to forget what your old company was like and that EK must have seemed a lot better when you decided to join.

To make my point clear,my current dompany is a national flag carrier in the arab world, we'r dealing with crap x-military managment,and our T&C's are nothing to compare with EK's,plus all I get as a F/O is around 2000$,which is crumbs,and thats all I get PERIOD,ie,no schooling,medical,housing,tickets, mind you erp!!!!

From my current position,EK seems like heaven,but please put your self in my shoes,so as much as I would like to be a member of EK's flight deck,as I think all of you did when you were also waiting for your interview results,I dont think I'll ever forget what my previous company was like and a day comes when I am soooooo pissed off at EK as most of you are,that I'll regret joining.

(I hope some one from recruitment reads this):=

Over and Out:ok:

MAX:cool:

MR8

8th May 2005, 14:57

MAX,

No one from recruitment will read this, the pilots who used to be in recruitment resigned a while ago, now it's only HR people who will recruit, and don't think they are on pprune - lack of aviation interest..

On the other hand, no worries.. latest I heard is that they take about anyone who is showing up for the interview. Weird thing for a company with so many (suitable???) candidates...
Course that started yesterday: again one A330 F/O who failed to show up, 7 others did though..

MR8

Obfuscation

8th May 2005, 18:03

MR8, Regarding yesterdays course, I was under the impression that new hires were all currently B777 and that sim 2 at ETC was down hence CCQ courses knocked back until Sept...?

BYMONEK

8th May 2005, 18:18

Bird on

You really are getting in a 'flap' over this aren't you! Like many other moaners on this forum you appear quick to attack those that try to disagree with your negativity or at the very least, be subjective in their views. I for one, am sick and tired of the constant bitching and whinging that goes on here and wonder at times whether this is the same Company we all work for. As someone has previously said on here, if we'd been given 50% there'd be people out there still complaining. I'm sure you'd be one of them. Like every Airline in this World, Emirates has it's faults and it's frustrations. Show me one that doesn't. We don't have a Union and for many,yes,this forum is an opportunity to express those frustrations in the hope that something is done. Managment do read PPrune i'm sure.
What you and many like you fail to grasp, is that there are plenty of us here who are happy and not all from Asia with no previous command time.
What right have you to accuse other fellow pilots of being 'gutless scavangers' when you offer no examples of your own efforts to seek better terms and conditions or of lobbying for improvements. Have you had the ' honour and courage of your convictions to contact AAR or AS? Or perhaps the real courage to call him TCAS to his face. NO, I doubt very much you have. And the laughable point of all this is that it's YOU whose unhappy here.
I have great respect for those that do vote with their feet when unhappy and equal respect for those that make the most from life no matter what.
You choose to do neither and for that, it's you who should be ashamed !

desert_knight

8th May 2005, 18:20

It would be interesting to hear EXACTLY what would satisfy the likes of Bird On or SS.

If not EK, which Airline in the world does meet your criteria for a first rate employer?

I suspect that no matter which Airline you nominate there will be Flight Crew from that Airline who will tell you it stinks!!

MR8

8th May 2005, 20:10

Obfuscation,

Yesterdays course is 4 groups A330, but 1 guy didn't show up, hence 7 guys, and 2 guys started on the B777.

This A330 course has been planned for over 5 months, is not a reaction regarding no factoring anymore and thus the lack of Airbus crew we have..

MR8

MAXMEDLO

9th May 2005, 01:03

Dear Mr. MR8

I am suitable,dont be inferior to fellow pilots on the basis that the selection process is now looking in markets they did'nt use to,maybe they feel we wont be bitching all the time since we appreciate their T&C's and we know that it's in fact greener on thier side unlike some on this forum.Just an opinion:E

I was only kidding when I talked about recruitment viewing this forum,one think I am sure of about EK is the lack of sense of humor of thier drivres:hmm:

Over and Out:ok:

MAX:cool:

donpizmeov

9th May 2005, 03:48

Good luck Max. Hope it works out for you. You will find there are a great bunch of fellas here to be working with.

Don

EZGOEK330FO

9th May 2005, 04:42

MAXMELDO if you read carefully MR8's post, it is not personally talking about you, it is talking about the system and how although Emirates management talks about loads of qualified candidates applying, they seem not to be showing up for interviews. The fact that you caught on to it and took it personal probably means, that you do not feel that comfortable with yourself. I also notice that before you even join Emirates you have started to have a negative view about the guys here.... It will not get you far..... You are right though, Emirates is about perceptions, it depends where you came from and where you want to go. If you come from, as you mention, a ****ty little outfit, or even one which is a flag carrier but is worse than Emirates, then yes you will enjoy it. The point is that we were all hired here because of our expertise. We have something to offer Emirates, in return for what we thought would be a good salary and a good stable and rewarding career. Emirates has gone from strength to strength because it has hired good people in all departments and has taken their expertise and profited on them. They have gained from all of us and it shows when you compare Emirates to other regional or world airlines. The trend has changed though, and now Emirates is hiring guys that have nothing to offer, and are just doing a job. You will see for yourself if you are accepted, that when you stop investing in your business, when you stop hiring in talent, when all you are interested in, is for guys who do not bitch and moan, and have nothing to offer except take from your employement, then you start losing the competetive edge, and you also suffer financialy and operationaly. Do not take my word for it, look at Gulfair, look at Boeing. They both suffered because they stopped doing what they were doing well... they went for maximizing profits, not providing a good product. It is a fact that every airline that started eroding its package stopped being on the cutting edge...
Finaly since we are talking about perceptions and how Emirates does its business, all you have to do is go to our Headquarters and look at our building. It has been renovated to look great on the outside and where people see it on the ground floor. They have gone to great lengths to make it look posh and inviting. Once you get on the elevator and get on the inside you can see the true picture of the environment where employees work. An old building which is just average. Emirates is all about image and marketing, it has a great package on the outside and just averageon the inside as our EGHQ building....
Keep Discovering

Crazycanuk

9th May 2005, 06:33

I fail to see what you are trying to say in your last paragraph. Would you rather have the money spent on poshing up the offices only to leave the public areas in a sad state. They do have a product to sell remember. And by the way it should be stated that a new ops center is curently under construction which will be a nicer work enviroment for the people in the office.

Now for a possitive spin on things. While some things have been changed for the worst, I still think it is one of the best companies out there. If and when things are eroded to a point where I can't take it anymore I will leave as soon as I find something else that is better. Simple, is it not?

My family and I like it here and we will try to stay positive or i fear life will deteriorate to something very sad.

For someone considering working here count on 6 years to command and be happy if it is less. Not happy with that then by all means try somewhere else. Simple, is it not?

As for the raise this year it equals $818 US for me and it will be worth more every year from now on. By the way $818 a month at 9% interest over 15 years is $300,000.

Crazy

330 Man

9th May 2005, 07:30

Gents,
Regarding the 330 course that started yesterday, it has been scheduled since the first of the year. This is in preperation for the 2 340's that come in September and October. We need 330 F/O's trained, which takes 3 months, to replace the F/O's who will be trained to fly the new 340-500's. At the last Pilots meeting someone said we will have 2 new joining classes for the Airbus this year, along with 2 upgrade classes, and this is the first one.
The upgrades have increased, and hopefully the new joiners will also.

I was also told by a mate in training that we have gotten AAR to approve buying outside sim time and we are looking for open sim time on the 330/340 anywhere in the world.

Regards,

330 Man

what_goes_up

9th May 2005, 07:35

there is at least two more to come. One scheduled in August and one in September. Guess there will be more!

Global Nomad

9th May 2005, 08:34

EZGOEK330FO

Interesting comment

now Emirates is hiring guys that have nothing to offer

Would you care to elaborate?

MR8

9th May 2005, 09:36

Max,

My comments on degrading recruitment doesn't state anything concerning your ability or professionality. This was just a remark on recruitment, lack of pilots in there and standards which seem to go down big time.. (just ask some of the trainers..)
I'm sorry if you felt attacked personally, and I take the complete blame if you took offence.. I should have known better:
Never assume that a general completely non-offensive remark will not offend someone of a different culture or with a different background...
I've been flying EK for a year now, and that is exactly one of the things that takes the fun out of flying with some guys.. you have to roll your tongue 5 times, count to 10 and then think again over what you were about to say, because it might offence the chief... Those are the flights I don't like to much..

Then again, most of the time I fly with people who are open-minded, who are clever enough not to take offence to a general remark and who have enough humour to understand I joke or a 'tongue-in-cheek' remark when one is told.. I know in which category you belong... (apologies again... :E )

MAXMEDLO

9th May 2005, 11:11

Well MR8,i'll have to change my remark on EK drivers not having any sense of humor,it seems that we started on the wrong foot here,but its a trickey bussiness interperting cultural differences in perception of stuff,one which I my self face as much as you do,I must read between the lines and you must write between them,which ofcourse takes the catch of any remark/joke.:E

Now EZGO,me not biting this time;) ,I am a quick learner ,but I cant stop my self nibbiling at some comments you said,what did YOU have to offer EK,that no one else has?

To make a long story short,we as pilots should be capable of handling our problems in a better manner since it's the core of our jobs,how to act under pressure,what ever the source maybe.

Over and Out:ok:

MAX:cool:

PS. Thanks DON

BYMONEK

9th May 2005, 15:02

Crazycanuk

Show me where you're getting 9% on your returns......please!

TST

9th May 2005, 18:10

Don't do the same mistakes, guys.
Don't trust the Arabs. Dubai is like a bubble - it'll burst in the near future.
The same with all the mad men in DOH and BAH or SHJ.
Excessive costs of living (100's of % in a few years), almost no salery increase (GF nil for decades), only exchange rate prot. of 50% in EK, heat, everywhere sand (in your pants, eyes, ears, car, bed...)
Unfair treatment between locals and expats.
Hope you're not married - cause that's what they're looking for. Married guys have to take more sh.. From both ends - work and wife.
There are nice things too, but mainly in the beginning - when everything is new and exciting and shiny.

Be safe and wise.

Saltaire

10th May 2005, 01:53

Some of what you say might be true, but is the lifestyle any better in TST or Central for that matter:yuk: You need a knife to cut through the pollution. No racial comments from me but........living in HK ?? I can still golf and enjoy the beach over here among other outdoor activities, without a face mask ;)

It's not perfect but I do enjoy my time off,

Salty

35North

10th May 2005, 03:57

Must say that this has indeed turned out to be an interesting post where there's a nice cross-section of views. Both positve and negative. Great stuff. Can't wait to get there really. Going to buy my tickets today. Wish me luck.

35Nth

Trashed Aviator

10th May 2005, 05:50

At least in hong kong you can earn twice as much and retire in half the time.

BYMONEK

10th May 2005, 13:07

TRASHED AVIATOR

Twice the salary maybe, but twice the cost of living there for sure.
My basic arithmetic skills = SAME RETIREMENT AGE!

donpizmeov

10th May 2005, 13:13

BYMONEK,
Your point would be true if all income was to be spent (eg. EK FO). However, if you have a bit left over...it would be twice as much (percentage wise...if 60% goes in bills, of the 40% left over, his would be bigger than yours).
So really I guess Trashed is correct.
Very well presented argument though...keep up the good work.

Don

Global Nomad

10th May 2005, 15:50

Don....do you have money left over? Your round in that case.

donpizmeov

10th May 2005, 15:59

This reference to round...is that a fat joke? Taking it that Mrs Pizmeov has a water cooled credit card the number left over may be small, but always enough for a round or two.

Don

BYMONEK

10th May 2005, 17:05

Don

"HIS WOULD BE BIGGER THAN YOURS"

STORY OF MY LIFE!:(

donpizmeov

10th May 2005, 17:12

Hoped you would get that. And I guess that is kinda a fat joke as well....oh dear!

Don

White Knight

12th May 2005, 21:24

Disappointed old son - wish I was in the camera business, then I might make a decent living:{ . But I'm not!! Pity the rest of the family's doing so damn well!!;)
Just because I - and my family (the important thing boys and girls) - enjoy living here doesn't always mean that I'm overawed by the whacking unpayrise of 8 whole %, the prospect of more DEC's where they're not wanted, I could go on - BUT, like I say, what the hell's wrong with looking on the bright side? Too many pessimists in this outfit if you ask me.

The more who leave, the better for those of us who stay:E :E

As for living in HK discussion, and as to who's bigger (or fatter) - who wants to live in a pokey little apartment? That's all you'll get over there!!

Global Nomad

13th May 2005, 05:51

And then

.....gosh, I didn't know. I'll withdraw my application right away.

mig21bis

14th May 2005, 01:05

Emirates changes a lot in the last 3 years for what I read.
EK policy about DEC just to save a course sucks. If you want to save a command course, just type the FO on the left side from the start. The day you need them, give them 4 bars, a kick in the b...t, put him more money in his bank, and send him to fly. You can do that legally, just let them make 3 to and 3 ldg under supervition on the left side every 3 monts and end of story, an other 3 on a class D simulator on the recurrent, end of story. In my opinion a Type rating is to let you fly left or right, to be a captain is a company desition. I think some crazy guy in managment want to make flying a mistery. FO Flying in the Left or in the right side he is still an FO, captain is captain, even flying in row number 40B eating dinner. I dont understand when managment want to save money doing stup....d things. You can save money and have everyone happy. All the FO at Emirates are very very experience to do that.

my two cents

4HolerPoler

14th May 2005, 01:12

Note to mig21bis:

Stay out of management - Please!!! With your wild imagination there would be anarchy. One day you'll get my drift.

4HP

BYMONEK

14th May 2005, 16:35

The word 'clueless' springs to mind!:hmm:

Quod Boy

15th May 2005, 01:16

Er,Mig 21 my son,have you had a few?

I got lost with the eating dinner bit.

Point is,they do as they wish,with no representation the door awaits or put up with the propaganda.

Have another,and lie down in a dark room.

North 35,good luck mate.QB:cool:

mig21bis

15th May 2005, 06:45

4HP, why in your big experience if you let an FO fly left side would be anarchy. Flying is a mistery now? Commander is commander regarthless the side you seat. Left side dont make you better pilo. Some companys do that, and never have a safety problem because of that policy. The Worst accidents in history are with very exprienced managment, with very experienced captains in left side and FO on right side. Almost non accident happen because of a FO on the left side, and capt on right side, that is stadistics, like it or not. Making mistery by pilots and management that are not sure about their own capacity and abilities is what makes anarchy in a company. Like it or not, mi idea is proved. Several companies I used to fly they type experienced FO on left side, and let you fly there, none of them ever have any problem with that policy. I´ve done it as an FO and as a Capt. No mistery doing that as a Capt, my call, I do it if I want. The only incidents they ever have where with 2 captains flying the same plane. 2 captains in a plane, thats generates anarchy. And several big companies do it. Some capts they just love to put the bu..t in the left seat and live, eat and sleep there for ever and ever, thinking they will be better captains because of that, thinking they will be more respected, that is the true about doing this. Not anarchy.

My idea is just an idea, a proved idea but only an idea, nothing more than that. End of story.

QB, Of course they will do what they want, and Emirates doing what they want generates more anachy and pilots not happy than my st....d and proven idea.

Vorsicht

15th May 2005, 07:02

I'm assuming then, that passing a written english assessment is no longer required to get into emirates.

35North

15th May 2005, 09:32

What the...?

Mig 21, do you actually fly for EK or were you hoping to get in as well? And the point to your post was?

Your philosophy is is right out there.

max AB

15th May 2005, 16:28

Give him a chance guys, he has a point. Not many accidents happen with the F/O in the left seat and the Capt in the right. Come to think of it I can't remember an accident where there was a Water Buffalo in the left seat either, or a Gerbil bound in gaffer tape for the matter! (Apparently people do that to the little fellas...)

mig21bis

15th May 2005, 18:09

I just put an idea, just an idea, to save money without doing harm in the pilots community. The last time I look at pprune the idea of a forum is to put ideas, like them or not. You always learn with ideas. This is a forum. But someone told me that mi idea could generate anarchy. I just disagree with that opinion.

No, for what you post here in this forum, luckly enough I dont fly for emirates. I would last 3 days there with the st...d managment there, specially with DEC policy. In this crazy world I am lucky enough to be flying at in home country at the moment, in 2 years I dont know.

Vorsicht, I am from a spanish speaking country and my written english is bad because I dont practice it as much as I want, but I am right with my point, no mater if I passed a written english assessment for my english. Most pilots that dont like my idea are in general pilots, captains and specially management dudes that are not sure about their own flying skills, not because of safety. Crazy is to seat 2 captains together in a flight, that can cause accidents. that generates anarchy. Too many chiefs and not enough indians. Bad decitions that cause accidents are done by pilots, not seats. And good decitions that save lifes are also done by pilots, not seats.

I agree that in a company like ryanair, easy jet, with FO with 200 hs TT, you can not put them on the left, specially on aircraft that you dont have steering on the right side, that would be insane and a safety issue. My point or idea is only valid in companies like emirates, were almost every FO is experienced enough to land a plane for their own.

Lets finish this now, good luck to all and I hope you fly and make lots of us or euros in your bank accounts. And keep the wifes away of those accounts. :ok:

616200

15th May 2005, 19:24

Great Mig21..!!! Agree 110%

ratpoison

16th May 2005, 08:35

Guys,

Just ignore the monkey. With that english spelling and twisted ramblings, it is a total pisstake and your all biting.

MR8

16th May 2005, 09:40

Mig21...

Thank you for your thrust in EK F/O's.. we can almost all land a plane on our own. I knew I could do it, although I still didn't figure out what that 'DUAL INPUT' call is about just before the plane calls me 'RETARD'.

On a more serious note.. I completely disagree with you Mig21. Putting a F/O left or right for landing is completely not cost effective.. It might be oke for a little mickey mouse airline back in Argentina, but when you consider pilots being qualified on A330, A340-200 and A340-500, you will need recency on these aircraft (ok, only as 330 and 340). Even now, while keeping to our own seat for approach and landing, people who are qualified on both 330 and 340 have to pay attention not to loose 330 recency, so when you want us to do that for both seats, it would be a hell of a problem for the rostering guys, leading to more f*ck ups, delayed flights and loosing money actually..

Also, in your little Cessna, it's not very difficult to swap seats, but in a real airliner you would be surprised how different the look is on both sides of the flight deck, you really have to look for some switches whitch you would be able to find blindfolded from your regular seat. You might experience the same thing if you swap side when sitting in front of that nice shiny B777 cockpit poster in your bedroom...

BTW: I am aware of cost cutting in Biz aviaion, one aircraft operated by 3 guys. 2 to fly the aircraft while the 3rd is sitting at home during his days of. You would need at least one guy who can do both sides, but that's not an airline...

Apart from that, you are completely right... :E

mig21bis

16th May 2005, 21:52

I respect your oppinion MR8, it is valid and thinking from your point of view, you are right, that will be a problem, having currency in both seats, specially in the Plastic plane with the CCQ. For the mickey mouse expression you said you are from Australia or NZ, I am right? The problem is that my mickey mouse airline in argentina has one of the best safety records in the last 30 years for world airlines and is profitable because is managed by monkeys from the 3rd World that collect bananas to pay the Jet fuel. If you want to disagree with me, fine, but try not to desrespect me. One thing I want to correct you, is that your plastic model plane, sorry I mean the Airbus 340, is a little plane compared with my little Boeing 747. My APU is has more power than your engines. No more little cessnas for me. Good luck MR8 and respect other people oppinion, something called Cockpit Resourse Management can help, its usefull I think, at least thats what ICAO recomend us. :ok:

And ratpoison, you can borrow you my banana when ever you need it, just wait until your girlfriend finish with it, you are number 2 for landing :}