Emirates T and C changes

[mensaboy]

These are the changes that have occurred at Emirates wrt the pilot group in the last year. I will endeavour to list the changes with as much objectivity as possible.
Keep in mind that I want qualified F/O’s applying to Emirates as this will undoubtedly further my career as opposed to the further insertion of DEC’s ahead of me and others in my position.

-an average work month of ~75hrs/month increased to an average of ~91hrs/month
-insertion of ‘operational plans’ for various destinations that would otherwise require breaking flight duty limits
-the use of scheduled block hours that do not reflect the actual time required to carry out a flight. In other words, shaving off of 10 to 15 minutes per leg that would have counted towards our monthly credit limit
-duty time reduced from chocks plus 30 minutes to ‘chocks on’
-an increase of fatigue ASR’s (air safety reports) from 1 per 4 months to 3 per week
-the resignation of an individual via ASR, citing fatigue and safety concerns
-simulator and groundschool duties not counting towards flight duty limits
-the DEC policy
-a loss of quality TRE’s and TRI’s
-the JNB accident
-the resignation of TCK yet replaced by someone worse
-the insertion of reserve days throughout my schedule, thereby breaking up any stretch of days off.
-an average of 1 reserve day/month increased to an average of 4 reserve days/month
-reserve days no longer counted towards pay or monthly duty limits (resulting in being able to have us available on 45 minutes notice for 10 hours at no cost to the company)
-the probability of being called to work on reserve dramatically increased
-the enforcement of written authorization to leave dubai on ‘off’ days
-the coming and going of the illegal ‘factored’ flying hours , although there is nothing official about the demise of this policy
-the utilization of crew rest facilities whereby a Captain is required to rest in the compartment at the rear of the aircraft while still remaining PIC.
-the utilization of crew rest facilities consisting of a first class seat sometimes seated next to a passenger. This results in rest taken during in-flight services etc.
-the institution of the ‘fatigue model’ into the bidding system
-the institution of the adopt bid system
-the removal of credit and block hours listed on our schedules
-the inability to take leave during the year due to the lack of available leave periods
-the discontinuation of paper flight documents, replaced by CDroms
- an increase in the number of pilots willingly working on days off
-a huge increase in the number of ‘no shows’ on initial courses
-a demographic shift in the pilots accepting courses at Emirates
-a massive increase in the number of pilots resigning from Emirates and also from positions within Emirates
-a shift from the normal pleasant and occasional bitchy atmosphere in the cockpit and Europcar, to a constant and unpleasant atmosphere of frustration and disgust
-massive cost of living increases
-a 1.5% pay increase
-
-a 2.5 BILLION Dhs profit

This is presented only as information for those considering a position at Emirates Airlines simply as a means to make an informed decision.

[MAXMEDLO]

My dear fellow,one word to you,WOW

I just came back from my interview with EK,they did not mention all the stuff you pointed out,which is quite normal,but I'd like to know how long have you been with EK,and where you worked before?

It really seems to me that most what you mentioned is (no offense) normal.I also work in the arab world in a fairly large company,and believe me you that its the same story.

No matter how we try as pilots to show managment that we are the backbone of the company,it seems they dont give a rat's ass as long as the carrot at the end of the stick is nice and ripe in the view of some of us,that is a sad fact to be honest,and if you ever leave your company,you'll just go looking for a bigger and nicer carrot some where else,and if your a lucky chap,you might even find it hanging on a shorter stick,and in a false sensation of triumph,you get the feeling that at last you might get to grab it, but alas.

I work in bad conditionts in my company,and with all due respect to what you say and what I have read on pprune, EK is still a dream which I hope could come true,sorry if I seem a bit on the negative side to you ,but you are still working for a company that is one of the best out there, and I think if you get your promrtion tommorrow you wouldn't be pissed off that much.

I hope you all the best and I know I'll be getting lots of back fire, so, bring it on

Over and Out:ok:

MAX:cool:

[VeniVidiVici]

mensaboy

YAWN..........:yuk:

[Quod Boy]

Mensaboy,

Very erudite post indeed.

Ignore VVV.Hes the type they love.

Good luck.You speak fact,not fiction.

Quite why EK are pursuing this line of negative PR is beyond me.

Off to the pub.QB

[sluggums]

VVV

YAWN............:yuk:

[porkandbrew]

Gents,
Two more resignations today.
Mensaboy you are soooo right.
Also, do not forget that we are technically not paid for leave anymore.
If you have let's say 10 days of leave in a month, you can bet your 4 weeks worth of insult that the company will make sure you work a minimum of 60-70 hours in the remaining 20.

Now that's EK for you!

/Pork
:oh:

[ratpoison]

Pork,

I'm getting excited. !! There has to be tubes of aluminium parked up against the fence sooooon.

Maybe someone will change the saying "Keep discovering" to "Greed is Good".

[Marcellus Wallace]

My two 'sen' worth

Quote

- duty time reduced from chocks plus 30 minutes to ‘chocks on’

Unquote

The 30 minutes post flight is still there - that's where you add 30 minutes to your ON CHOCKS time and calculate your next duty. That determines the rest you need before the next duty.

The FDP on the other hand ends - ON CHOCKS. They are totally different.

There is a subtle difference between Flying Duty Period, Flying Hours and Duty Hours.

FDP = Preflight + Off Chocks to On Chocks

Flying Hours = Airplane first moves under it's own power till it comes to rest upon completion of flight (This is being disputed factor or not)

Duty Hours = Preflight + Off Chocks to On Chocks + 30 minutes Postflight

FDP influences safety of the current flight whereas Duty Hours influences rest before the next duty.

All 3 cumulatively affect safety and fatigue.

Note the difference where Flying Hours are referred to for 28 day and 12 month periods and Duty Hours are referred to for 7,14 and 28 day cycles.

These are all adopted from the CAP371 - a UK document with changes by EK. I don't agree with all of them e.g. rest in seat/bunk but the main framework remains untouched.

Quote

- a demographic shift in the pilots accepting courses at Emirates

Unquote

Guess economics and exchange rates play a role in this. Hope there aren't sinister reasons involved.

As long as the joiner's are qualified, make the grade during the interview. :ok:

[145qrh]

Well Marcellus

"As long as the joiner's are qualified, make the grade during the interview."

That is the thousand Dirham question at the moment, according to a recruiter I flew with, some of the less successful applicants had been passed by senior management. Make of that what you will.

Mensa --- "the utilization of crew rest facilities whereby a Captain is required to rest in the compartment at the rear of the aircraft while still remaining PIC" --- twaddle, doesnt matter where they are when resting, guy in the front is trained and qualified to make the decisions..

Agree with most of what you say tho'

Whatever happened to the Joburg 2....??????

[Vorsicht]

145qrh

"guy in the front is trained and qualified to make the decisions'..

What absolute twaddle. The guy in the front is at best a cruise captain who has been trained to handle an engine failure and a depressurisation. He is not a captain, he has not been trained as a captain and he has not been assessed as a captain.

If he was trained and qualified to make the decisions he would have 4 bars and be called captain and receive somewhere in the vicinity of 6000 dhs extra by way of insult.

Marcellus is quite correct in his implication that it is a long way from the BCRC to the front of a 340 when you are the captain and the blue side is down.

[Quod Boy]

Marcellus,having been involved in pilot selection at EK,I can assure you the standard,is "variable".When I was there,it was generally very good,but that is because the system,was run by pilots for pilots,with some HR input.It truly was balanced,I saw excellent candidates miss out,because of what I considered minor shortcomings,equally others made it in,by the skin of their teeth.

The original regime,(that was dropped by our former leader in one of his moments of fancy and inherited by the current flt ops management),did a great job IMHO.Very few problem children slipped through,it was a thorough,cross checked procedure with little room for favouritism.From the group evaluation,sim to pyscho.

Remember,EK take ANY ICAO atpl,and the selection is no longer done by the same system,and like rubber goalposts,the standard is variable,depending on demand,demand is high to get pilots in,but in the meantime,pilots are leaving.Coupled with this,new pilots are failing to show up.This has never happened in my time at EK,but we are told 20-25 apply a day.Really?

I would politely suggest,the demand has eased from pilots who traditionally,would have come to EK,years ago,giving up an existing command or secure slot,from traditional recruitment areas.

IMHO,of course,and that is partly to do with the opening post on this thread.

Off to the pubQB:D :cool:

[Golden Parrot]

Sorry to drift from the topic slightly but this may be of interest to those thinking of trying their luck across the water with Qatar Airways: If you take that list and remove the last two items, you have an incredibly accurate picture of what happens over here.

[rumblytumblypoo]

I think we are all being a little unfair to VVV. The fact he can not see what is going on in EK is not his fault.

Like many of his creed he can not use his own eyes as his sight is impaired by his head being so far up somebody elses arsehole.
Likewise he can not smell or taste as these senses are overpowered by the stench of bull****.

All poor VVV is left with is is hearing and all he can hear is what he is told by his own mentors arse.

[145qrh]

Vorstich -- sorry to be a pedant but Marcellus never mentioned the BCRC.

So let me get this straight, 4 bars can give you the ability to rush from half way thro a dump, into the flight deck and rescue the situation when the blue side is down..... bollox....

Just how far away from the left seat is safe 1K, above L2 for 777 rest.

Seems you have control issues my friend, learn to let go and trust other people. BTW I would guess the average F/o , cadets excluded who arent allowed to be there by virtue of lack of ATPL, will be about 6000hrs, more than qualified to keep the blue side up........

[sanddancer]

If any FO's really want to be cheered up at their prospects within EK - suggest you read Far East Forum - Royal Brunei - about page 19.

What was that about no more DEC's?

[bus canuck]

The location of the crew rest facilities was made for economic reasons and that is my only point.

Just as a point of interest, the Air Canada 340's have the bunk behind the flightdeck. That means the foward galley is on the other side. It's so noisy there that the pilots were threatening job action to get the bunk moved.

Personally, I don't see the issue with the Captain in the bunk, although I can understand the other side as well. But then I'm came from a situation where the F/Os are trained and trusted.

[Pontious]

According to TCAS EK has a highly qualified team of Senior First Officers with a vast wealth of airline flying experience, therefore it's okay for an Osaka to go with a Captain and 2 SFO's.
The Captain can rest in the BCRC safe in the knowledge that for his 4+ hours away from the flight deck, while the aircraft cruises (sometimes) over the Himalayas, Kashmir and into western China, the company have entrusted their brand new A345 full of high fare paying pax and tonnes of valuble cargo to a couple of 'super-dooper' guys who aren't quite good enough at the moment to take an A330 from DXB- DOH, BAH, MCT etc.
Has anybody looked at the categories of SFO's leaving EK? How close are they to their command courses? Isn't EK losing the very guys that they'll need in the medium term (i.e. 1-3 years) to crew their expansion plans? Looks like more DEC's on the way. Has ANYBODY got a definitive figure on how many guys have or are leaving? Are they mainly Capts? Mainly SFO's? Bit of both?

[ratpoison]

Yes yes yes, 4 more of the brothers, 3 F/O's and a Capt walked into TCAS's office Wed 18th with a good bye note. I believe TCAS was looking somewhat very pale. !!!

[Quod Boy]

Heard on good authority,12 pilots resigned in month of April,both seats,both fleets.

Was that why 8% was awarded,or was it coming anyway?

QB:cool:

[ratpoison]

Yep Quod, I believe it's a total of 32 or 33 since late Dec early Jan so far. More to come apparently when the "profit share" is confirmed in the bank and able to be withdrawn.

[Payscale]

12 guyes out
12guyes in
1 B777 in
Doesnt add up. They will be backed up against the fence....in Al Ain

[Trashed Aviator]

The rise in resignations will snowball even further if 330/777 Decs show up:
There has to be transition upgrades and if 3 years has been clicked over a course date should be given , even if it is six months away.
Is it really that hard ?
Unfortunately the way they are opererating a lot of loyalty is being lost throughout, guys who would have stayed here till 60 will always be on the edge of there seat and looking for better options .
Its sad Emirates has come to this, just another contract job.

[Ramboflyer 1]

I agree things look grim !

[LHR Rain]

I just got back from my leave (I know you guys missed me) and come to find out that they hired 12 Airbus DEC's and 12 B-777 DEC's while I was gone. What the hell, over? I must admit this is just one pilots opinion and most decidedly rumour. I thought those tactics were gone. What happened and is it true? If it is true this must end but I have to admit how do we as a pilot group stop it without submitting our resignations.
Keep Discovering!

[helen-damnation]

LHR Rain,

Where does your info come from?

H-D

[Vorsicht]

LHR Rain is a wind up merchant.

I dont think his comments on this thread or any other contain any substance whatsoever. Granted this is a rumour network, but there is a difference between rumour and fabrication. I think LHR specialises in the latter.

If there has been that many DEC's hired or the 20 resignations last week that he mentions on another thread, then the word would be all over the street, not on prune.

[Ramboflyer 1]

This is serious news if it is true, i dont think you are correct.
But i have heard a lot of DECs are going on A310 and have airbus and boeing ratings and will be moved to mainline in around 1 year , so the DECs are filtering via the 310 .
How can these guys think they can hide things from us is unbelievable.:E

[turtleneck]

this makes no sense. remember: it's all about spending less. if you move 310 DEC's, they need to be replaced and retrained. does't sound like EK once they have you in place somewhere.

[Believe Brother]

turtleneck, agree with your comments. Interesting thing is though that the EK ad on Flight jobs website for 310 captains indicates a 12 month contract. So is Rambo onto something? Who knows. We aren't going to hear about it until after it happens, because it is our job to keep discovering!

[LHR Rain]

You are right it was just roumour like I admitted on another thread but there is some substance because come to find out we have A-310 DECs all over the place. Maybe that is what they were talking about on the flight down from the rainny island.
Also talking to a friend, a 777 DEC just moved in next door to him and he just started about 10 days ago. Is this true? Where does it end?
EK needs more pilots like MR8and to get rid of Bird On. I don't think that Bird On gets out of bed in the morning without the okay from the company he is that insecure.

[330 Man]

There are currently 3 dec's for the 310 in class, which is not exactly what I would call "DEC's all over the place". (LHR Rain you will never learn will you son)!

I saw one of the 777 FCTI's last night and I asked him if we had any DEC'S in class for either the 330 or 777 and he said "hell no".

Regards,
330 Man

[LHR Rain]

In my book 3 DEC is all over the place. That means for you 330 man that it is 3 too many. If you like the DECs good on you mate but most of the FOs at EK don't like it one bit. Those captian slots on the 310 could be for the FO here already.

[330 Man]

LHR Rain,
Finally you and I agree on something. Three is indeed 3 too many. I do think though that ALL of the F/O's do not like it. We all have to keep in mind it is not the DEC's fault, but the companies. I blame no one for taking a Captains job here, I blame the company. The DEC program has been a disaster from the beginning. It is typical Emirates: We always try to reinvent the wheel, and our finished wheel is always square, and never rolls.

I think it is the OZ factor! (that will rile someone)!

Regards,

330 Man

[donpizmeov]

330 man,

Can you explain this OZ factor for me please?

Don

[4HolerPoler]

Wind-up Alert - if you rise to this bait you're a sucker. Keep the wings level please. 330 Man, take a yellow-card.

4HP

[LHR Rain]

330 Man

Yes we do agree on some things including the Aussie factor here at EK. What they do in the cockpit goes beyond the mim. and might even cause FOs to tune out while they go on and on about briefings, wx, airport conditions, pay conditions, work enviroment, mangement etc etc. There logic is why say something in 2 sentences when you can say it it 7 sentences.
But having said that the problems at EK go way above the Aussie factor that you metion. Mike O'Grady is the top Aussie here and I don't think he is responsible for the DECs or T&C changes and overall low moral.
Maybe we can agree on more in the future since we are such a roll!

[mensaboy]

Its fair to say that DEC's at EK are definitely a poor attempt at mitigating the affects of the recent changes to our T and C's----- a resultant loss of desirable pilots applying for positions and the loss of qualified and experienced pilots at an alarming rate.

Even 'Bird On', in spite of his obvious alterior motives, might agree that the present policy will have disastrous long term affects for EK. And if he doesn't agree then he is truly lacking as a human being. This is made quite clear with his ridiculous comments wrt being a 'patient F/O', 'things at EK are prospering' and 'all good things come to those who wait' rhetoric. He may continue to talk up the good life at EK with hopes of attracting desirable pilots but i believe that those considering uprooting families to come to EK, should be given the entire truth before making such a decision. His attempts at trapping fellow pilots into something without full disclosure is devious and self-serving. And believe me, i want pilots applying to Emirates as it will ensure the success of this airline and thereby my career. Yet unlike Bird On, I refuse to mislead.

I have to state that I do not hold anything against DEC's. I place no blame upon them and treat them with respect. I entirely place the blame for this misguided policy on Emirates management. In fact i find it disturbing that some of these DEC's are absolutely pathetic in their primary job of being a safe and effective captain. Some of these guys are stellar captains and would be an attibrute to any airline but its entirely correct in stating that some of these pilots are way out of their element. I have seldom seen such poor airmanship and lack of knowledge regarding SOP's, TR avoidance, crew cooperation, fuel saving measures, as I have seen from some DEC's at EK. That is a sad reflection on the DEC policy at EK.

Even if all the DEC's were stellar captains I still believe the policy is flawed. It promotes dissention amongst the pilot group and rewards the ill-advised policies of managers. There is absolutely no reason why EK could not promote from within. This was the most desirable pilot job as little as 3 years ago....... in the entire world. Now, it is only desirable for those with a marked decrease in experience and training as compared to those applying in the past.

This policy must be axed and the sooner the better. And the only way that there is any hope of having this airline continue to prosper will be to completely review the recent decisions regarding T and C's. Pls go back and review the policy changes I have listed at the beginning of this thread, that have occured in the past year. Even the likes of Bird On will have to agree, this airline is pointed in the wrong direction wrt our careers and it is all in the name of profit. Too bad the managers can't see beyond a couple of months and realize that profit will suffer immensely due to these changes. Sometimes i wonder if it all comes down to jealously.

[330 Man]

I swear it was meant to be funny! I WAS ONLY JOKING!

4HP, I have to go fly so make it a red and I will sit out the next game.

Love to all,

330 Man

[Trashed Aviator]

So why is there F/Os in the right seat who meet the DEC requirement , and also the accelerated but are getting overlooked by management...

[Ramboflyer 1]

You summed it up well mensa ,
the truth is out there , the standard is appalling yet these guys came here and jumped over guys with similar and in some cases more experience.
If you leave a command job to come here as an F/O you will pay dearly.
There is more suitably qualified captains in the right seat than you may imagine.
Now management must know why F/os are so pissed off, there is no merit in this company it is all about saving money .
Also there r good jobs out there SIA cargo and sia 777 for example who will look at f/os for command if they meet the hour requirements including previous command time.
Funny thing is Emirates needs these guys for upgrade (I think) yet they are the ones more likely to leave .
If you were offered a command with another company and you are an F/O with EK why would you stay,when there is no idea when upgrades will happen.
If they get really short they can just keep throwing DECs over you indefinately or if you are on the wrong type such as 777 in about 3 years you could be an 8 year f/o while your mates on the airbus get 3 year upgrades .
Its no way to treat people.

[Backwater]

In my view, as long as we have the current EVP, E&O, there will be no change for the better. And the likelihood of him moving sideways is next to zero. Emirates is pursuing the national policy of 'Emiratisation', or 'jobs for the boys' if you like. That means a 'Gulf Air' scenario. It will never go back to the good 'ol days. So we will continue to see irrational decisions being made at EVP level to the detriment of the company. It is a lost cause.

So if you are happy to put up with it then good luck to you. Personally I can't wait to be shot of the place. One thing is for sure. Ultimately Emirates will get the standard of pilots they so richly deserve.

[LHR Rain]

Not only was the DECs bad for EK but it was bad long term and short term. The applications slowed way down from pilots that they really wanted and long term they are seeing the resignations starting to gather steam. I know probably not as much in numbers as everyone is saying or hoping but they are happening none the less.

What is the reason for this? Is it the T&C changes or is it the DECs or both. Hard to say but every decision has had an impact of late and it is starting to rear its ugly head. Deep in a lot of pilots hearts at EK they were hoping that the DEC program would fail and that is debateable if it indeed has failed. Long term I would suggest that it has failed because of what I metioned above and that spells trouble for all of us months and years down the road.

No question with what has been writen earlier EK is not going to get the pilots they want. Someone said they will get the pilots they deserve and that is very true. So good luck to all of us and especially the ones that stick around. CVs all over the web, now if I can get my lucky ticket punched

[Quod Boy]

Mensa mate,spot on post.

The DEC programme was flawed from day 1, so long as there were qualified FOs here already from other carriers.

I have no personal problem with the individuals,they took the chance but i agree the standards are at best variable on selection and training.This programme once entered,had to succeed.Some are excellent,some are not.

It was a political move I think,and has done great damage.IMHO of course.I can never remember so many pilots resigning in such a short period of time in my time at EK.Not hat DECs are to blame,the treatment of us all,in Ts and Cs has not helped.

I hope they have a plan to resolve it.QB
:cool:

[nixisfix]

anybody know how many did actually resign, excluding myself?

[LHR Rain]

20 just last week. XXXX XXXXX confirmed it while in MEL. Ask him I am sure that he will tell you but on second thought he is probably so busy now trying to hire the third world pilots that he can't take your call. The ball is starting to roll and gather steam. Look out below!

[Quod Boy]

I think 20 in a week unlikely.

19 as of last week confirmed.

I am happy to be corrected.

Accurate info please,for credibility.

QB:cool:

[tic]

You don't trust or respect your Management. ( I wonder why? ) Understandably any F/O with the requesite time, and being suitable,being passed over for a Command, for a DEC, is unacceptable, and therefore delays the F/O's progression, and gets the people concerned de-motivated. GF has finally learned that lesson. No new hire DEC's, at least for now. Maybe EK is growing too fast, too soon!!!! . Is the bubble going to burst, I wonder?. Like the building boom, it's got to, sometime. Costs are major, and surely it is cheaper for your airline to hire, and train, DEC's, than to train F/O's within the company, bearing in mind the extra aircraft you are constantly getting. We all know the ' goal-post's' change all the time, not to suit you, but to suit the company. In my view, and it's a huge pity, the nitty gritty of our field get shafted,often. Without us however, the planes would be idle, gathering dust, and there's lots of that here.
Lastly, don't run-down GF/QR etc, all the time. They are just as good as you think you are, better, I think, but that's my opinion. Certainly, you've had the opportunity to learn from their mistakes, apart from Etihad, being the baby in the Gulf.Your marketing is second to none, you should be proud of that. Keep Discovering!!!
tic

[ratpoison]

LHR rain,

Keep personal names off the forum, mate. That is the Golden Rule and not to be broken. Use initials or nicknames only.

[bluewater]

Totally agree RP.
Hey LHR as a suggestion, why don't you edit the name out of that post so others viewing will not see the name. Just a thought!

[Cyberbird]

"Its sad Emirates has come to this, just another contract job"


- well. i guess that's unfortuneately and sadly become true by now - those hillarious housing costs for a place in the middle of the desert went up some 50 (fifty !) percent just last year,
whereas that ridicolous payrise of 8% was just peanuts, and - too shorten it:

If they bring in (once again) DEC on the B 777 fleet, they won't have just my resignment letter on their desk next morning!

Sorry, but repeated exhausting "bullits" to Europe with Min-Rest - or MRU- to sleep again Min-Rest during the day whilst the a/c is doozing and boiling on the ramp, furthermore more and more 6 days shuttle trips like: DXB-CMB-SIN or DXB-SIN-MEL-Auckland and retour in one (!) week, you just had it!
Ahh - well, of course just 9 days OFF - spread somewhere in between - Great !@

And not few of those hard working Skippers had been kicked out of their posh villas in return - that definitively boosts the (deteriorating) morale ...

To sum it up: That's NO life anymore! We just had it - you're totally nackered thereafter, and some Captain handed in an ASR thereafter:
"Unfit / Unsafe to fly due to Excessive fatigue!" That's what i call courage! Well done - Thumbs Up - we need more of that backbone-guys!

There will be a big wake-up pretty soon! You bet! There are better jobs coming up soon !
:ok:

[sluggums]

I have seen 8 leaving in June, having done their 3 months notice:ok: