Flybe type rating problems

[African Drunk]

Hearing rumors that flybe recruitment from cabair was not that successful. As I understand it a course in canada had a large pass problem and senior flybe staff had to fly out for armtwisting to get them through. Can anyone give me some more info.

Particually intertested since Don was complaining of the training risk of older pilots. I believe he said recently " If I am really busy I sort the CV's into under 28 and over 28".

[v1rotate]

Heard last week from a Dash 8 F/O that FlyBE were very short of pilots and were taking pilots straight out of the flight schools with NO sim check and putting them straight onto the course.

The result was that a lot of them had problems on the type rating course.

I can't see why DD would dismiss older pilots. Just doesn't make any sense as some of those have Turbo Prop experience.

[African Drunk]

He was at a talk when he said that. My friends that attended were amused that for an HR bod he obviously hadn't heard of age discrimination legislation. He also refused to comment on the facts and figures for older pilots. All he would say was they once had a 40 year old pilot who failed a type rating.

[Tallbloke]

To be fair to Don Darby, when I heard him at a seminar (Aeros beginning of May) he mentioned the case of a highly experienced guy (57 I think) who could not hack a particular type conversion course, however he also said that he had recently recruited a 63 year old (presumabaly rated on type). He raised the example of the guy who could not hack it in order to show that it is possible that older people can fail courses. (This example was offered at a time when Don Darby was being badgered by one of us crumblies, which I thought was quite rude. Guy turns up in his own time to give seminar, gets heckled. hmmm.)
However this is completely different from low hours older candidates. Reading other threads it would appear FlyBe have recruited a few older modular guys just recently. I would have thought the situation is more complicated than it appears if a whole course is having problems.
Personally I think that the young people are not my competition, it is all the other people of a similar age / experience to myself who are the competition...

[gijoe]

Tallbloke,

I was also at said talk and thought that DD gave a good talk.

The heckler was out of order. I was later informed that he is already in a position of responsibility within the industry and even undertakes training at Aeros. He was out of order, not constructive...and that's when I left.

He should know better. What a big man he is....

I've had it from someone else that recruitment to such positions depends on the HR guy at the time. There are no rules. The line captain that I was talking with said he valued life experience in the RHS over 'straight out of the can' every time.

G

[excrab]

African drunk,

To be fair to both those on the course in question, and to cabair, there was a mix of students, some modular, some integrated, some with instructing experience and from a variety of training schools. I understand from talking to some of them that only one failed to pass the test first time, but some additional sim time was given to most of the trainees prior to their LST, after which they all achieved first time passes aside from the one mentioned who past at the second attempt.

Two flybe TREs had to go out to Canada as FSI who were doing some of the training have no suitably qualified examiners. One of them was the dash 8 training manager so I guess that could be defined as "senior flybe staff"- but that was purely a coincidence as it was all rostered a month before. Not sure what sort of "arm twisting" could be applied, my understanding is that there are tolerances and test standards laid down by the CAA for multi-crew LSTs just as for single crew, and you either achieve the standard or you don't.

As for the age thing I believe that the 63 year old was recruited as a direct entry captain, but recent recruits have included modular students in their early 40s on first type rating courses, and many over the age of 28. There have been no significant failures that I know of, although I admit I don't get to talk to the training staff on a regular basis so I could have missed some.

[African Drunk]

excrab thanks for the info. Suspected the rumor was overblown, was told by friend who was told by friend etc.

[Say again s l o w l y]

The 63 year old was recruited as a direct entry Capt. but did not have a type rating on the DHC 8

[Maude Charlee]

Dunno about this discrimination against the crumblies. They have offered places on courses to at least 4 guys I know in their mid-thirties so far this year. OK, so they are all from the best training school in the world (mwaaah, ha ha ha, guffaw, cough, cough, splutter, ahem, er, yeah right). All low hours, mix of integrated and modular. Doesn't seem to suggest any adverse mindset towards the older guys, or are we talking zimmer frame old?

[Tallbloke]

I agree with MC, FlyBe would appear to be one of the very few glimmers of hope for us crumblies.

[VTOL]

I'm worried that post 28 I'm considered a crumbly... :D Must've just snuck in under the bar.

[Whispering Giant]

VTOL - well if your a crumbly at 28 - That makes me a pensioner then at 32 !!!.:ugh: :ugh:


I'll just get back in my zimmer frame........

[Jinkster]

One good aspect of crumblies is that they are unlikely to leave the company is a few years time to go to Monarch or whoever...

I understand flyBE dont like being used as a 'training' airline!

[High Wing Drifter]

One good aspect of crumblies is that they are unlikely to leave the company is a few years time to go to Monarch or whoever...
Hmmm. I'm not sure about that one. If an older prospect can get a job at 250hrs then theoretically they will find it easier to move to the likes of Monarch three years later with 2000+hrs and an ATPL.

I understand flyBE dont like being used as a 'training' airline!
They do pay decent enough money to consider the long haul with them. However, I do wonder though, with a few thou' under one's belt and waiting on the hold, who would not be thinking of updating their CV as another propless shiney thing squeaks onto the black stuff in front of you?

[African Drunk]

I believe one argument put to DD was that older guys are more likely to hang in for the long haul. He did however say that If he was really busy he sort the CV's into under 28 and over 28.

It would be interesting to know the figures. From personal experience I know 5 over 30's who have joined in the last 5 years and all are still there. The 6 young guys known to me have left or are in the process. Does the high turnover relate to the fact that flybe have recruited a large proportion of younger intergrated pilots who ( in most cases ) see themselves destined for big shiny jets?

I have no particular axe to grind as I am 30 but with reasonable experience.

[er82]

High Wing Drifter - did you miss out a vital word in one of your statements?!?!?
>>They do pay decent enough money to consider the long haul with them<<
Don't you mean they DON'T pay enough to consider the long haul?!?!?!?! That's why so many young'uns are leaving. Why stay at an airline that has no roster stability, little in the way of crew welfare, and pays about £15000 less than most of the other operators...... And the other operators have the added bonus of a shiny jet! FlyBE always have been one of the lowest payers, and still are.

And as far as 'crumblies' being better to employ because they'll stick around - lots of those who have recently left were Dash Captains (mostly 'crumblies') because they were so fed up off constantly having the pi** taken when it came to their roster and lifestyle..... It's not all about the 'big jets'.

Don't know anything about this recent course that had 'problems' - I've known of guys who did have a sim check before being employed who also had problems.... And no, you can't 'armitwist' to get anyone through.

[80ktsboth]

I've heard rumours about the courses that failed. I've heard that it was an internal problem and not really to do with the new guys/galls inexperience or inabilities.

As i understand it there was a disagreement between two training captains who chopped each other's students. Very unprofessional if that's the case. If no-one can stick to the training guidelines then that makes life very difficult for the newbies.....welcome to Flybe!!

I also heard that this little exercise cost the company £1m as these pilots were already rostered to be flying on the line.

To echo er82's sentiments the pay is rubbish as is the roster stability etc. but as a first job you could do a lot worse. If you decide you don't like it you can leave, as many of my colleagues are doing. Other airlines seem to look at experience at Flybe as a good thing.

As for discriminating against older pilots i'm sure that does happen. When i attended a lecture 3 years ago he was saying the same thing. Older pilots do get through the "system" (!) and the First Officer's among them seem to stay. The Captain's who have worked at other airlines soon regret joining Flybe and leave.

I believe the one's who have made it through have either had recommendations from people within Flybe or just been incredibly persistant.

DD is a character. Here's an urban legend i heard about him......

DD and the late great George Dunn were sitting at a desk in an office in Exeter. Across the table from them was a pilot waiting patiently for the interview to begin.
DD starts the precedings....."So xxxxx why do you want to join Flybe?"

George leans over and whispers....."Don,.... this is an exit interview"!!!!:ok:

[er82]

Brilliant!! Hadn't heard that myself but can well imagine it happening!

If the guys/gals aren't going to be on the line as planned it looks like I'll lose some of my 12 days of standby this month! This place was going to be home to newbies for the next month, leaving me free to run around and cause much more havoc before I leave!

[flybe.com]

As i understand it there was a disagreement between two training captains who chopped each other's students.

Absolutely 100% wrong.

[High Wing Drifter]

Don't you mean they DON'T pay enough to consider the long haul?!?!?!?! That's why so many young'uns are leaving. Why stay at an airline that has no roster stability
Well OK, I have to take your word for it. All my pay knowledge is via PPJN and it looks decent enough to hit the comfort zone.

Frankly, from what I read roster stability is like the mythical crock of gold at the end of the Rainbow :\

[er82]

Ah ok. Well you've probably seen the starting salary for the jet then, not the Dash. That's a whole different story!!

[80ktsboth]

Flybe.com.......fair enough, as i said that's what i'd heard. Glad to hear that isn't the case....so what is?

[liketofly]

Good afternoon all.
I've got a question, a bit off topic.... January this year we've passed the selection round at Flybe. Since then, we were only told that we passed, and that there where problems with the timetable of the Bae146 sim. Does anyone know if that problem is still relevant or if Flybe already found another way to finish the gradings? And how about the Dash8 TQ? Is there still a lack of training capabilities?

Cheers

[flybe.com]

80ktsboth - Recruiting process was a shambles, 2 admin staff and 2 pilots were despatched to carry out interviews, with the pilots doing one batch and the admin'ers the other - durrrr! No sim ride second stage to filter the wheat from the chaff, and some of the successful candidates simply failed to meet the required standard during training.

[Maude Charlee]

There was definitely a sim ride second stage, but not everybody who was interviewed had to sit the check. They are however in the minority as most candidates have sat the sim, or are still waiting for dates. I'm presuming that is what you meant. ;)

[African Drunk]

I spoke to a few people this weekend and they agree with flybe.com that quite a few did not do sim rides.

[er82]

liketofly - about 10 people were taken straight onto the 146. This is a TEMPORARY measure and they will go onto the Dash when more senior crews can be released.

Sim slots for the Dash are few and far between - which is where some of the problems have been with this course that needed extra sim time. Apparently due to extreme lack of communication (why doesn't that surprise anyone in this company?!), they were stuck with no trainers and what sime slots they did have (where they were supposed to do LST) went unused.

As a little side-track, I'm sure most will find this interesting - spoke to one of the 'special 10' who went straight onto the jet. He's under the impression he won't ever go onto the Dash - and I quote "I've been in this company 2 months and already don't believe a word they say. I won't go onto the Dash ever".....

[liketofly]

er 82,

Thanks for your reaction... When I'm reading your reaction I understand that things are not that well organized within Flybe. Do you also know something about an unofficial holding pool? We were told that at this moment they didn't have free positions. But if we made the selection and grading, we should be placed in a kind of pool. Do you know if there even is a pool, and if so, how many pilots are in there and how long are they waiting already?

Cheers

[Maude Charlee]

Last heard 15 in the pool and no starts available for at least a couple of months.

[liketofly]

Does any one of you know if the TQ training for Dash8 is still continuiing during the summer season? Or is it, like as many airlines, that the only thing they're thinking about is flying instead of getting the cockpit seats filled?

Still nothing heard of any progress since I passed the interview...

Is flybe always this lazy to his employees?

With friendly regards

[CaptAirProx]

er82....

Your quote of one of the "ten" you spoke to, I hope you welcomed him to the world of aviation. Do you both really think that flybe is the only airline that never tells its staff until it has happened. When these new guys disappear off to other employers and get the whole "romance" of the job out the system, they will realise that aviation is the same on every level.

[liketofly]

Hi there,

A week or 2 ago I heard 2 people from a Dutch flight school started the TQ on the Dash8. Is it true that the unofficial holding pool is already empty? I am still waiting to start my TQ, but these 2 guys where having their application the same day as I did. Is there someone who knows how the holding pool situation is actually, and if the sim-slot issue is already come to and end?

Regards