Navigation

[eoincarey]

Hey ppl

I have a small problem when it comes to navigation; im not particularly good at it! Usually i can read from the land to the map fine, but when it comes to making course corrections im useless. I can't seem to find a method that really works for me, (eyeball, fan lines etc) and was wondering if anybodyy had any tips that they knew of. Ive only recently passed my ppl, and got lost on my gft so I always knew that this was something I would have to improve on. Also, are their any decent books out there that may be of some help?

Before somebody starts suggesting I retrain from scratch or something, I am genuinely keen to imporve my nav skills, and any helpful advice would be welcome.

Cheers

etc

[maggioneato]

Don't worry too much. You can't be that bad or you wouldn't have passed. Just plan well, make sure your headings are correct, it will come with practise. I always found a longer route worked out better than a shorter one, more time to settle down. Don't buy a GPS till you have got it right without.
Fly with another more experienced pilot is also an option. It seems to come more naturally to some people, I like you found it difficult.

[foxmoth]

A bit difficult to give hints without knowing exactly what bits you have been taught, but assuming you have been taught properly it is just a matter of practice. As said, plan fully, fly your headings and speeds and use the timing properly and it should generally work out OK, I would also back the recommendation to fly places with more experienced PPLs, not only do you then have someone to help out if needed but it makes things more affordable if you share costs.;)

[dublinpilot]

The two things that I found the biggest help where when I decided to

a) fly mainly straight lines, with as few turning points as possible. That why if you aren't 100% sure that you're at the correct turning point, then it's no big deal, as you can just continue on track, until you find a better land mark.

b) make sure that the few turning points that you're left with, are bloody big towns, or big lakes, or something else, big and obvious from a few miles off track.

Through much of my training, my instructors had me doing flights turning at various little villages, and it got pretty difficult when you're 1/2 way between two idential small villages, and wondering which one you're supposed to be at!

The other thing to do, is if you have a VOR/DME note the bearings and distances on your plan, for your turning points. It helps to confirm that you are where you thinks you are, but doesn't really involve much extra work in flight.

Hope that helps.

dp

[BEagle]

Have you tried using the 'Standard Closing Angle' technique?

So easy - and takes all the mystery out of navigation!

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Choose your weather?

From 2000' on a low vis day then some areas round here are not very easy, consisting of dozens of identical little villages and identical little winding roads and no lakes and no motorways and no railways.

But if you practice at 9000' on a high vis day you can see pretty well the whole of East Anglia! - absolutely no chance whatsoever of getting lost, so you can fly your plan and so long as you don't get more than, say, 30 miles off track, you'll be able to work out exactly what's going on with your navigation.

[fox golf]

Don't know what you're doing but course corrections shouldn't be too difficult. Draw a line 10 degrees off your course from each of your destination points. That will tell you how far off course you are - if you're half way simply double it for your course correction. I wouldn't bother making course corrections of less then 10 degrees so wait until you're far enough off course before making a correction (and make sure you're doing from a point you can positively identify). Draw the direction of the wind on your chart so you can visualise what's going on.
If all else fails don't be ashamed to use IFR techniques ( I Follow Roads ).

[what who me?]

Ive only recently passed my ppl, and got lost on my gftCan we have the name of the examiner please? Seems like a good one to book with next time.

[Aussie Andy]

Fly with another more experienced pilot is also an option. ... or even another bloke who's recently passed PPL and at same level as yourself: you'll find you will be able to help each other progress safely, two heads are better than one, and it's twice the fun! See if you can hook up with a like-minded person through your club. Put a notice on the board for someone to share some day-trips with!

Hope this helps,


Andy :ok:

[IO540]

Get a decent GPS. The best money spent post-PPL.

Also learn how to use VOR/DME - essential as a backup to GPS.

With the above, you should never get lost.

[Aussie Andy]

I agree with IO540.

Andy

[bar shaker]

I'm also with IO540.

A moving map GPS will let you see that your nav decisions were right or wrong. Use it to check your map reading and situation fixes. It will let you learn about reading the ground and the map in a safe way, which will improve your skills and your confidence very quickly.

Getting confident of your nav skills will transform your flying enjoyment.

[Droopystop]

A few hints you might find useful:

If you are not already using one, try a quarter mil chart rather than a half mil.

If you are using small features as way points, find a larger feature nearby and know where your WP is relative to that.

Look for a feature beyond your way point that if you get to, you know you have gone too far.

Following roads, rivers and railways is always a good one, but dont forget to cross reference with your compass. All to easy for a low time PPL to get the wrong motorway around London.

Feature hop. Draw your line and work out features on or close to you route. When flying hop to each, but don't navigate too close, ie if when you get flying you can see your destination, fly to it and don't worry about the features you planned to see in between.

Draw a black line around the shape of towns/woods/lakes that you have picked as features so that you can see at a glance what you expect to see on the land.

If you get a gps, then learn how to use it intimately before you go flying with it.

Good luck

[High Wing Drifter]

Comment One:

To help find an answer to the quesiton of course corrections there is a rule of thumb that I don't use, but I would like to prompt somebody else to describe it properly.

Basically it goes along the lines of (no pun intended): Turn left/right 60 deg and then fly for one minute for every mile you are off track. After that duration turn back on track and get a fix.

That should prompt a respond so somebody please fill the gaps and/or correct it.

Obviously you wouldn't want to do that in anything faster than an Arrow, but for your average PPL I imagine it ends up being a damn sight easier than mental math.

Comment Two:

How about inbound and outbound Fan lines of 10deg. You simply add up the degrees of tack to get your course correction angle. The downside is that you can only correct your course once. The way to get arround this is to make two (or more) shorter legs from one long one and then give each its own set of drift (fan) lines.

Personally I hate drawing lines everywhere so I just stick to doing sums, but each to their own.

[Flik Roll]

Don't go anywhere :E

Practise makes perfect, if you got lost on your skills test, I suggest you shouldn't have been passed. As you were; maybe a few post PPL trips with an instructor?

[BEagle]

Hear, hear!

There's a lot of the blind leading the blind on this thread. If your navigation is so poor, you must fly with an experienced FI!

[High Wing Drifter]

Forget my question, I found the answer. It's called the "Standard Closing Angle" and Beagle meantioned it up above.

Basically you work it out on the ground:

60/(NMs/Min) = SCA. (SO 90kts TAS would be 60/1.5 = 40deg).

Then turn the SCA backtwards track and fly on that angle for 1 min for every mile, then turn back on track. I think I'll give it a go!

[Classic]

Just keep getting airborne, go to different places, learn your own lessons, and all of a sudden, you'll know you can do it!

Most of us have been where you are now.:ok:

[helicopter-redeye]

My 2 1/2d in old money.

1. Now you have the license, plan a post qual training pgm with an instructor, focused on general nav. Tell him/ her what you want and get them to commit to getting you to X standard within Y hours. Discuss this with them, and tell them what you can commit to in terms of personal study and flying time (you'll need to read some of dem book again and learn some stuff). Does not need much but its only a few pounds more than hiring the basic aircraft you are getting lost in ...

2. Team up with a more experienced PPL and fly second (or back) seat with them and see what they do. Pick a good one though ...... (else negative tfr of bad habit)

3. Plan some solo flights that involve navigation that is difficult but not dangerous (ie not around major airfield concentrations). Plan the flight. Draw the lines on the chart. Know your way points. Make sure you always know where you are (without forgetting to 'aviate' and 'communicate' as well. Do it on a nice day (dont want to worry about weather too).

There will come a point where if you always get lost, nobody will hire to you then you are out of the game.

NB do above without getting or using a Skymap or GPS. When you can navigate then your allowed the labour saving devices as a backup.

h-r:8

[bintheredonethat]

Or if you really would like to learn and improve navigational skills you could always try going to a day organised by the Precision Pilots assoc, usually mentioned in Pilot mag calendar.
They teach good techniques and seem to have fun as well.

[Professional Cynic]

I binned my first attempt at my NFT due to poor nav technique and then flew with an instructor, ex RAF who showed me the standard closing angle method and the 1-4-7 and 1-5-6 technique after that I never bothered with the constantly off track technique again and its a lot easier!

GPS etc are all good but are not totally reliable, nothing wrong with map clock compass.

No disrespect but how can you pass if you get lost on a test?

[dublinpilot]

Presumably he wasn't quite where he thought he was, identifed the problem and corrected it, and the examiner was happy with that?

dp

[Professional Cynic]

Fair comment dp but I thought in the original post that he stated that he was'nt very good at track error corrections.

"but when it comes to making course corrections im useless"

Which is probably why he became temporarily unsure of his position no doubt!

Good on him for trying to do something about it but I agree with BEagles post on this one.

PC

[IO540]

GPS etc are all good but are not totally reliable, nothing wrong with map clock compass.

Now try that in France among its mass of restricted/prohibited military airspace, and countless other places where people get exceedingly nervous if they see a blip on the radar in the wrong place.

Your method of navigation isn't even appropriate to the UK and it's mass of low level airspace.

The only thing one can say for it is that within the 45hr PPL it is all there is time to teach, given the junk planes people have to rent they can't rely on anything in the instrument panel to survive the flight (even if it works to start with) and absolutely nobody in flight training wants a more expensive PPL on their price list. They already see a constant year on year drop in students.

You may be an exception and if so that's great, but I usually find that the anti-GPS people do most of their "flying" over a beer or three, and if they have done any significant distance ever it was decades back when the world was a different place.

Today, you need to be 100% sure of your position, and there is no OBE to be had if one c0cks it up.

Radio navigation also just happens to produce a much lower cockpit workload, which makes flying a lot more fun and the pilot is far less likely to join the vast majority of new PPLs that chuck flying in permanently in the first year or two - many of them doing so because they realise (correctly) that the skills they have been taught are really quite inadequate for going anywhere for real. Not that the average school gives a damn; their motivation is taking money off people.

[foxmoth]

But if you practice at 9000' on a high vis day

You mean twice a year!:(

[Professional Cynic]

Woah easy tiger.

I have flown in France and many other places without GPS and managed quite nicely.

I am not anti GPS in any way (got a lovely 296) but quite simply if you are flying VFR you cannot rely on GPS and nav aids all the time. GPS has dropped out a few times for no apparent reason and batteries and power leads have failed, I have been unable to use nav aids due to being in remote places and at low level due to weather (not exactly flying in airways are we?) to avoid some of the airspace you have mentioned. Guess what when everything else failed I looked out of the window picked up my map and set the stopwatch going, and never got lost.

The original post was about navigation and not use of technology I am a huge fan of GPS and use it on a regular basis but you still need to be able to navigate using conventional techniques have you ever had a GPS failure or been unable to use a navaid? It does happen!

Thats exactly why the CAA make us pass a nav test without relying on GPS and navaids!

Technology is a tool but only a tool relies (100%) on technology.

[boomerangben]

Eoin,

I see from another thread that you might be looking to go rotary wing and it would be interesting to hear any differences between nav techniques.

To your main point, as you do more flying, the nav will get easier because you will begin to be more comfortable with the flying and communicating. There are those out there who love the gadgets and would not go with a gps and some form of radio nav kit. I have nothing against that. But I find that there is immense satisfaction to be gained from navigating the old fashioned way successfully.

It is your choice how you choose to navigate, but good airmanship (in my book at least) dictates that you should be able to use a chart and compass to get you home if all else fails.

I hope that your struggle with nav doesn't put you off flying. Believe those that have said we have all been there.

[eoincarey]

Cheers for all the helpful advice guys n girls, much food for thought.
My problem is that i dont get flying nearly as much as id like (study commitments) and so it will take a long time to accrue that sort of experience. I do have a GPS (a really good 296) but my main aim is to hone my basic nav skills first and then use it as a backup.
My radio nav is fine; i can get a position fix fine, and even without it I can usually determine my position on a chart visually (let's just forget about the gft fiasco! i have improved a bit since then).
I suppose it is a case of practice makes perfect, and im quite interested in the idea of building hours with other newly minted ppls.
Anybody sherburn based in the same boat??
Many thanks

ETC