Aviation Lawyers.

[ronnie3585]

I am a final year university law student and a PPL student. Im going back to uni next year to do a postgrad and I would be interested in a career in avation law afterwards.
I would like to know what qualifications are necessary to enter this area of law, I am presuming I will need a professional qualification but do I have to do a course in aviation law?
Any other information about job description etc would be greatly appreciated.:ok:

[Re-Heat]

'Flying Lawyer' is your man for those questions.

[BlueEagle]

Not to mention several/many years of relevant experience within those areas of aviation and aviation law that you would like to practise.

[EagleLegal]

Ronnie3585, hi. I'm an aviation lawyer in the City (although one on the verge of canning it and going off to fly, which probably isn't the most sensible thing to do reading some of the other threads on here).

I pretty much engineered it that I got into this field: I had done UAS, PPL etc. but when I graduated in the mid-90s flying jobs were in short supply.

You need to think what you mean by "aviation lawyer". There are three main fields really: finance, regulatory and litigation. I specialize in the first two. No additional qualification is strictly necessary for the finance work: it's really banking with an aeroplane twist. That said, enthusiasm for the area undoubtedly makes it more enjoyable - the hours can pretty horrendous when you're on international deals. The major upside is that most other aircraft finance lawyers you come across are generally good guys - it's a small community so you have to get on. There are other definite upsides like lots of involvement with manufacturers and airlines, with trips around the world to "deliver" aircraft. You'll also be making enough to carry on flying privately, if that's your thing.

Regulatory work is different. An even smaller pool of firms to choos from and I would definitely recommend looking at a Masters in aviation law: it gives you a real boost in knowledge and demonstrates your commitment. I did the course at UCL - absolutely excellent although places like McGill offer even more aviation-intensive Masters courses. But, for me, this is the really interesting work. Acting for airlines, airports, government bodies on everything from setting up an airline, route rights (not so much of that any more), airspace issues. The work ranges from the hugely practical - getting permission for wet leases overnight for an airline with an AOG - to the theoretical (such as advising on airspace issues).

Litigation (pretty much liability work): additional qualifications again not strictly necessary. Just make sure you pick one of the good aviation litigation firms.

That last point worth bearing in mind for all areas: make sure you get into one of the recognised top firms.

Good luck!

[ManfredvonRichthofen]

Hi guys

Sorry to slightly hijack this Ronnie...
EagleLegal - interesting thread for me. I'm a (lapsed due to law course fees) PPL. Did the airline sponsorship schemes etc back in 1999 before i decided to give up on the idea for a multitude of reasons. I still look longingly skyward but try not to think about it now....

Anyway, I've been working in a different field for a few years. Finally decided a couple of yrs ago to take the law plunge and am now doing the second yr of a part time cpe before starting the LPC in September (I'm 30 this year by the way). I have a training contract lined up starting sept 2006. Given my interests, I am keen to get into the aviation side of things. Like you said "enthusiasm for the area undoubtedly makes it more enjoyable". Ok, banking is banking, but I'd rather be financing a 74 than a combined harvester. I'd love to have done an MA in Air/Space law too, but I've already done a 4yr degree, followed by a year's MA, 2 year part time GDL and now onto the 1 yr LPC so.... Every time I come out of my last exam i swear I won't do that to myself again.

I did a placement at Ince & Co a while back, which was great, but not sure if lit. was necessarily for me. Considered Beaumont & Son etc., but in the end decided that something broader would be my best bet. In the end I chose a top 20 firm with strong av. finance team and a top-rated (Chambers places it 2nd tier) reg. bunch, eve though the former head honcho has since moved to chambers. You can probably guess the firm. Begins with a D and is having something of a shocker at the moment... Sometimes I think I should maybe have applied to more places (maybe MC too - you can always trade down), but the truth is I got a good feeling from the firm I chose so I'm actually very happy with it, and I am hoping I'll get a seat in both av. finance and reg. As far as I know there is no aviation lit. going on there, but we'll see. Will I enjoy lit. or transactional more. I think I'm of the opinion that you just can't tell till you've done it.

How have you found the job ? hours shocking I'm sure, but generally enjoyable ?
And how are you getting on with your break over to a flight deck ? How are you going to do/finance it ? I'd be really interested to hear.

Ronnie

Look at the UK section here http://www.chambersandpartners.com/uk/

You can search under "Aviation" which will give you 2 options - regulatory, and insurance (litigation). This will turn up the top rated firms in the area
Off the top of my head for aviation litigation firms to consider (I'd say) are Clyde & Co, Ince & Co, Beaumont & Son, DLA, Barlow Lyde Gilbert
Finance is more what you'd expect. Clifford Chance, other MC firms etc

Hope that helps somewhat

A couple of words of advice from someone probably not qualified to give it.

1) As EagleLegal says, "make sure you get into one of the recognised top firms". This is important. The chances are you will not be at the same firm all your life and the better the name on your CV the more flexibility and mobility you grant yourself.

2) (This may not ring true for a firm such as Beaumont & Son which is a niche aviation firm, but is true for almost all others I'd say). Sure, express your interest in their strong aviation work, BUT DO NOT express an interest ONLY in aviation work. You will get binned immediately. Remember that they want you to be flexible, open minded etc etc. The firm I am going to has a niche area that a lot of people are interested in getting into. Those who banged on mostly about that in their interviews were binned. The correct approach in my mind is to look at what the firm does (read, where it makes its money) and tailor your answers in the interview accordingly. Remember you need to get in. Once you're in, then push for what you want.


I wish you the best of luck, both of you.
Keep us informed of how you are getting on.

Of course you may want to go to the bar, in which case everything on this thread is useless :hmm:

[ronnie3585]

Thanks for the input guys, I appreciate it.
I am seriously considering doing a L.LM in aviation law, so I would be greatful if ye could point me in the direction of L.LM courses offered in the UK or Canada. I scouted through the major universities in the UK and did a google search but I couldnt find
very much.
Also my L.LB is from an Irish university, does anyone know if this will affect my chances of application in the UK?
Thanks:ok:

[Flying Lawyer]

Nothing to add about the solicitors side of the profession. EagleLegal has given you very good advice.

Barristers who do aviation work don't see as wide a variety as specialist solicitors, but we do other non-aviation work. Also, the thought of standing up in court has to appeal. ;)

If you want 'a career in aviation law', then becoming a solicitor will give you a better chance of fulfilling that ambition. If you want to know more about the Bar, feel free to e-mail me.

[ManfredvonRichthofen]

Eagle - sent you a PM. Hope that's ok.


Ronnie
for England try UCL, where eagle went :
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/laws/prospective/graduate/llm/index.shtml?llm_082
for some reason its not available this year, but call them and check.


the other one that eagle mentioned, which I have also been told by one of my current tutors is the daddy of all air law courses, is:
http://www.iasl.mcgill.ca/intro_800.htm
in Canada


I don't think that you'll have a problem having a "foreign" degree at all. They will have plenty foreign students on both courses and will be well used to it. It is, however, worth giving them both a call just to discuss preliminaries.

Good luck

[EagleLegal]

MvR: assuming PM is a private message - no worries, but haven't received anything. Not sure where I'd find it, though!

[EagleLegal]

Eureka. I shall PM back in due course.

Although I should say, publicly (and from a completely unbiased perspective, of course) that I can't fault your choice of firm.

[ManfredvonRichthofen]

He he

I have a funny feeling i may know who you are

Thanks

[EagleLegal]

Guesses on a PM please.

[SpeedBird22]

Hello

I'm a trainee solicitor and also a pilot. I agree entirely with the advice that has already been given but the majority of the firms mentioned will be hard to get into. Each and every year it gets harder and harder to get a job.

I work for a national law firm in greater london and although my firm doesn't do aviation law, I find that the income and stability that this sort of job provides is the perfect to support my very, very, very expensive hobby.

Moral of the story is: aim high - but if you can't get into a firm that does aviation, don't think that is the end of it. Law of any sort id an excellent career and one that will allow you to sustain a healthy amount of flying in your spare time.

BirdSeed22:D

[What to do?]

Hi guys

I completed my two years training contract and decided I really wasn't enjoying it. I'd always had the itch to fly and I'm now training for the commercial licence.

Granted, I never actually worked in aviation law, but corp, prop, IP and media seats were enough to show me that it' wasn't for me.

I would love to know the reason for some of you not becoming pilots since you've clearly got a great interest in it?

Is it the lack of client contact? The worry of boredom? The hours (although I suspect that would prob be a drop for many lawyers!)?

Cheer, and I'd be really interested to hear from you

Later

Sorry, meant cheers there!

[What to do?]

Come on lawyers, give me your reasons, I'm interested!

Cheers

[SpeedBird22]

Well, when you compare a legal career to an aviation career my own humble opinion is that law is simply the easier option (not saying that it is in any way easy in itself...).

It's also a numbers game - compare the £25,000 odd loan that you need to get to be a lawyer with the £60,000 that you need to end up in the RHS of a commercial plane. Plus job security in law is currently extremely good, with salaries to match.

That said..........I'd still rather be flying! Will have to wait until the end of my training contract to see whether I want to jack it in or not - but my inclination is that I'll end up sticking with the law and *hopefully* fly as much as possible in my spare time.

:) BirdSeed22 :)

[ManfredvonRichthofen]

agree with everything speedbird just said re relative difficulty of entering either profession, especially if you are a recent grad.

Can't comment too much on actually working as a lawyer as i haven't done it yet. Don't start till next year. I'm hoping I'll like it - to be honest I'll be at an age where I'll have no choice but to like it.


A couple of reasons for me deciding against commercial flying in the end that haven't yet been mentioned:

I'm essentially, I’m a words guy, not a numbers guy. I think you’re one or the other. You’ll know what I mean. Doesn’t mean I think I haven’t got what it takes (without meaning to sound arrogant), just that I am naturally more suited to something else.

Another thing, which you can pick up from reading this board, is the apparent general deterioration in T&Cs for pilots, but every job has its bad points.
And of course there is the insecurity of the job.

For me I think I have made the right choice.

That said there’s rarely a day that goes by that I don’t think about it. And if I won the lottery tomorrow, I’d be down to Kidlington in a shot and setting up Manfred Airways – the Caribbean Coconut Importers.
GDL exams in 3 weeks so I’d better get off this site….

What to do – keep us informed as to how you are getting on. Good luck.
Speed bird – maybe I’ll meet you in a professional capacity one day. Or maybe in the more salubrious surroundings of an airfield

[SpeedBird22]

Manfred

Thanks and good luck with the GDL's and your training contract.

I'm currently on a blissful weeks holiday away from my desk and the weather had better hold out for Thursday because I'm supposed to be flying!!

:) 22 :)