Will BA meet its recruitment target?

[Yarpy]

Interesting statistic fro the IPA Skypointer magazine.

BA require 223 pilots for the fiscal year March 2005 to March 2006.

At present the have 'secured' 80.

1. Why do BA have a problem recruting pilots?

2. What do they need to do to attract more pilots?

[What to do?]

Hi

What is the present time to command? What's wrong with the pension scheme at BA?

Cheers

[concorde001]

Do you think we will see the return of the Trainee Pilot Scheme?

[er82]

BA have a problem recruiting pilots because their own standards are quite strange, and the 'vetting' procedure so stringent. Not saying this because I'm bitter about not being taken on (I've got a job with a company I think is far better for me now). When I went for the day-from-hell, there were 12 applicants there, with 90% being totally suitable for the job. Most had type-ratings on BA aircraft, and those that didn't had enough experience to be able to show they were capable of handling a TR course. I think only 2 got called back.

The interview is not about you as a person at all, it's all about giving them the kind of BS they want to hear. What kind of examples could I give of leadership in the airline environment?? Well I'm 22, have been flying commercially for 20months - what kind of leadership do you think I have?!?!

Lots of my friends and colleagues have all been, and most got rejected. They are all extremely competent, and have great attitudes and personalities. Perhaps just not enough of the 'management' personality that BA want, and perhaps have too much 'I love flying'...

If BA can't recruit enough crew, it's their own fault. They've had hundreds of applicants, and I'd guess maybe 75% were totally suitable.

[Re-Heat]

With regards to future sponsorship: pilots within BA say no, however I think that will ultimately be incorrect as:

1) Although there are no shortage of 200 hr pilots, there is a shortage of qualified pilots, and of people who are capable of stepping onto a jet at 200 hrs and making it without first having hour-built (so they say...)

2) With having to pay for a full integrated themselves, the pool of people willing to do so is diminishing, leaving modular graudates and - perhaps - people less suitable whom integrated schools take on as the pool of keener and more skilled people decrease. BA would need to make a choice whether or not to take modulars at 200 hrs, which I don't think they are prepared to take (snootiness or experience-wise, take your pick). CTC being the exception that proves the rule.

3) The pool of RAF people is far, far smaller than it has ever been in the past, and the competition pays far more than it ever did.


I think there are a lot of keen, capable people who cannot afford to pay for training themselves. The RAF recruits some of those, and others are lost to non-flying jobs at the moment. Some may get in through raising the funding but the risks are too large to bother doing that for many. On the one hand one might say that it is an insufficient commitment to a flying career, so stuff those who are lost - others might say that a certain level-headedness to make that assessment would mean that group make better decisions. A mixture of those would of course be best.

Though the company is not a charity, investment for its own future growth will - in my opinion - be required in the future, if not now, when the Multi-Crew pilot's licence is up and running.


It does strike me as slightly patronising that they require people who will think outside the box, with qualities of being better managers, then patronise them with some of the working practices and pronouncements from management that are experienced. Maybe however they are seeking people with a wider mind who can see why the company operates as it does, and therefore more likely to put up with BS that comes from operating in the bombsite that is Heathrow...


Caveat - I don't of course have any idea what they want not working there.

[flying_lawnmower]

I agree with some things that have been said, however, i would have jumped at the chance to work for them and was so disappointed when falling at the final hurdle... However, i do agree with the arguments that BA are letting good people slip through their fingers... If i had been offered employment, that would have been me for life as i have always wanted to progress onto long-haul... However, another year passes and if another company comes along, well who can turn it down...
Its all very well having to jump through the hoops, but the trouble seems to be that the decisions are black and white, and if any part of your 2 day assesment is covered by a grey area, then thats you for another 12 months...
Thats not to say however that i ma not counting down the days for my next application...
:ok:

[Shagtastic]

Sadly management in many different commercial environments get suckered into thinking the 'bells & whistles' recruitment procedure sold to them by HR consultants is shyte-hot, and they can go away and not have to think about it themselves.. it's taken care of.

Regrettably the highly qualified HR consultant with a string of degrees after their name, which is not a bad thing, only see the value in their commssion.

So you end up with some crap recruitment procedures which are irrelevant to the job..

Not being party to BA's recruitment team I can't put the boot in too hard but didn't they have trouble several years ago with an agency that had them selecting pilots based upon a New York department store manager?

I am told they have a scanning programm that looks at the essay one needs to submit via the web only to pick out and score 'buzz words', grammer & spelling. Never mind what it is you actually have to say, that's irrelevant.

Sounds like the BS factor in the pilot recruitment process is alive and kicking and we are still not looking for aviators to join BA..?

[The Greaser]

I have to agree that some parts of BA's assessment process, especially the micropat tests for direct entry pilots seem a bit strange. However I have been through the system twice now, one many years ago for the Cadet scheme and one more recently for direct entry.

I think the key is the interview, and with it preparation. If you go into it without any thought (as I did first time) you have no chance. They are looking for people who not only want to be pilots, but who only want to work for BA, whether you want to or not, you have to convince them of this. And this takes preparation. To give you some idea, I put in probably 100 hours of work or more for my latest attempt at BA - the result, success.

So if you want it enough, go for it, but don't be half hearted or you may as well not turn up.

Good luck to you all, I hope it is worth the effort.

[er82]

Um, excuse me, I didn't go into it half-hearted. I too spent many hours getting ready for it. I had a list of maybe 100questions that they like to ask, and sat down trying to come up with a suitable answer. Don't forget pretty much every question requires an example of a situation when you've- made a good decidion;bad decision; led a team;had to make a hard decision; etc etc etc.
For someone like myself with what could be classed as little experience in the aviation world (1200hrs) I don't have many examples to draw upon - basically because I've not encountered any such situations. I've not had any emergencies (luckily!), and being a FO I don't get to make decisions - that's down to the Captain.
However, I think the fact that I started my commercial training at 18, and getting my first job at 20, with a first time pass in IR, TR, Line Check's, LPC's, OPC's blah blah blah would be proof enough that I'm dedicated, ambitious etc etc etc.

My point is that they're no doubt turning pilots away because in the interview they couldn't come up with a decent answer about an emergency they've had to deal with. Having had another interview recently, from which I've gained a job, the whole interview was about ME. What kind of person I am, my strengths, weaknesses, hobbies, how my training went. A very nice, relaxed interview - and I'd say giving my new employers a much better idea about what kind of person they're employing.

And yes, the Micropat testing - utter bollox. What that showed them I have no idea.

[deeceethree]

The Greaser

I have to agree with you. The interview was the one item you could do a lot of preparation for. Let's face it, there were/are some good clues in a certain thread on this very website!

I too put in the hours for the interview. I was anxious when it actually came about but I very quickly settled in to enjoying it. I mean that - I thoroughly enjoyed it and could have continued with my interviewing team far longer if they had wanted to. The aptitudes etc were a grind but in the end it payed off - I have also been successful!

[The Greaser]

er82

Perhaps this time not having enough experiences to draw upon was your downfall - this is not your fault, just an unfortunate side effect of being young. If you want BA, keep trying, you will get it.
Best of luck.

[er82]

Very patronising....!!!

No thanks, I've managed to get a job where I'll be much better suited. I'll be a name, not a number!

(Oh, an please don't now start saying maybe it's this attitude that BA saw and hence the reason I didn't get hired.... When I went for my interview I honestly though BA was the way to go and was all I wanted. I just now realise this not to be the case)

[Megaton]

He wasn't trying to be patronising; he was trying to be encouraging and helpful!

[Hot Wings]

As I've said before, the key is preparation. Generally speaking, the RAF guys are the best prepared. There is no excuse not to know the share price, who the new CEO is and who is in the Oneworld Alliance. FWIW, if you want to join LH then at least have some idea of who our longhaul competitors are - and Ryanair isn't one of them! Crucially, spend lots of time brushing-up on your mental arithmetic.

A final tip, just because you are an F/O doesn't mean that you can't make some decisions. Its obvious who comes from a company where the F/Os are in the "gear up, flaps up, shut up" mould. Take the lead when its your sector - get involved in the decision making process when it isn't!

NB. There is no automatic buzzword scanning of your applications.

[guybrush]

Guys, a little bit off topic, but I guess we all need to accept that in life not everything we want we will get. Some of you will be accepted at BA others won't, that it life. Sure it's annoying, but you never know what the future is hiding. We all need to keep that in mind (and that includes you guybrush!).

Cheers:ok:
guybrush

[MrBernoulli]

er82

Did you get a job with Monarch then?

[Cuillin]

When I attended second stage BA some years ago all I saw throughout the interview was the top of the lady pilot interviewers head!

She had given me the preamble that I shouldn't worry if she was writing while the other (HR) lady was asking me questions. She then continued to write while asking her own questions. Her interview technique was atrocious.

I, like most people, have attended a reasonable number of interviews over the years and have been successful in about 75% of them. This was the most poorly run interview I have ever attended.

Perhaps I was just unlucky with the individual who was doing the interviewing. Needless to say I did not get through second stage.

[er82]

Nope. Not Monarch. But I will be on a shiny Airbus!

[MrBernoulli]

er82,

easyJet? First Choice? Oh, go on, be a devil and TELL us!

[er82]

Why the interest?!?!?! I'm reluctant to say - only because I'd rather my future colleagues don't know who I am just yet- I'd like to go with a clean reputation!!!

[MrBernoulli]

er82,

Oh go on. I won't TELL anybody. Trust me. I'm a pilot.

[beauport potato man]

"naughty girl"...........

GB...................

Good memory, or just a good use of 2 mins on the search function.

No secrets in this place eh?

BPM

[Craggenmore]

bpm

a good memory!

:suspect: ;)

[er82]

No, he just has nothing better to do! Mr Gossip as he's otherwise known. And certainly no secrets when you're around as you have a serious case of can't-keep-your-mouth-shut....

Love ya!;)

[behind_the_second_midland]

and being a FO I don't get to make decisions - that's down to the Captain.

I think you have just explained why you didn't get in.

[Bucking Bronco]

All

The reasons why BA is finding it hard to recruit? Well as Lima/Alpha junk says very lengthy time to command (except if you want B737 Gatwick) and a money purchase pension scheme, I know of one person who changed his mind after being given a start date on the B777.

I too also know of top guys who've not made it through the interview process and it's all the more galling when you end up sat next to a complete prat for a few days wondering how they managed to get through when so many good people got rejected.

The ironic thing being that when BA took over BCal, Dan Air and City Flyer that hundreds of boys and girls came through without an interview.

As for...

When I attended second stage BA some years ago all I saw throughout the interview was the top of the lady pilot interviewers head!

This doesn't surprise me - she's probably a result of the BA politically correct campaign whereby minority groups are pushed ahead/given a head start to fill vacancies. Note that Bob Ayling was rewarded by the Queen with some title or other for his services to equal opportunities.

Anyway, back to the TV...

[er82]

b-t-s-m - oh please don't try to assume why i didn't get in. You know nothing about me, how I answered all the anal questions in the interview, or what kind of person I am.

[behind_the_second_midland]

No but if you have the attitude that you can't make a decision as an FO you wouldn't have got near the place.

We tend to like people who are strong willed and won't get pushed around.

The training department, of which I am part of, then proceed to treat FO's as future Captains from day 1, including a P1 rating on their licence.

Also we have no individual restriction on x-wind limits like many(all FO's are 2/3 airplane limits) and unlike many airlines in the UK our FO's can call STOP and touch flight controls such as speedbrakes.

We also encourage real P1US.

So I doubt you would have enjoyed it if you just like being led.

Oh and if you'll forgive my guessing...you didn't get in did you?

[Airbrake]

BTSM.
If you are a BA trainer your above post shows a very poor attitude. The sarcasm in your last sentence says more about you than the rest of your post. I trust your debriefs are more professional than your contribution to this topic.

[Harry Wragg]

B-T-S-M. Lets not forget the empowerment felt when FO's get to fill in the fuel remaining figure in the tech log wow, just like being a real pilot.

Still waiting to make a decision in BA, how many years does it take? I have however touched the speed brake, it felt goooood!

BA recruits people who will fit into the corporate jelly mold. Being a good pilot is NOT a factor. Being interested in aviation and flying is NOT a factor. Being a company clone is VERY much THE factor.

If you want a job in BA you have to fit the very specific mold. Being strong willed is not one of them as you will find your inability to change anything very frustrating. It is, what it has always been, is, and always will be.

BA is not for everyone.Not getting into BA might be the best thing to happen to you.

Harry

[Roobarb]

The new joiner to BA will be able to enjoy the recent incarnation of ‘forced draft’, and exciting little backwater of the rostering agreement where your days off can be changed in an instant with a threatening phone call from current ops to come in or your on a disciplinary!

Perhaps this slightly less vote winning policy has yet to impress the putative DEP who might prefer some of the more traditional terms and conditions offered by other employers such as days off, leave, and time with your family. Funnily enough, ‘I’m sorry, I’m the only one who can look after my children’, or I’m sorry but I’m not in the UK, have yet to be accepted as reasonable excuse to decline forced draft.

I imagine the slightly disappointing guest list is because those prospective new recruits who have done their homework have realised that working for BA is rapidly becoming a profoundly unpleasant experience.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/images/173/roobarb.jpg
It’s not the opposition I’m worried about, it’s my management I can’t beat!

[behind_the_second_midland]

Harry

I'm sorry you have that attitude. I suspect you haven't worked for many other airlines or you would probably appreciate more the way you are treated on the flight deck.

If you have then you will know the reality and are probably just a sulking FO pissed off with the pay deal and probable increase in time to command

That is understandable.

However try to remember you enjoy the best Ts+Cs of any UK FO and for equivalent experience (time in) the best pay.

Airbrake, I'm touched by your feedback. Thanks. I'll make sure my debriefs would be up to a standard which I am sure you would approve.

As for the sarcasm, harsh but true I would say.

[er82]

B-T-S-M

Hang on, I don't have the ATTITUDE that I can't make decisions. What I was saying is that BA asked for SPECIFIC examples of a situation when I had made a whatever (good/bad) decision. My basic response on here was because I couldn't really see the point in going into great detail (hey, I didn't really think anyone would pick up on my answer and try to tell me why I didn't get in). However, if you'd like me to explain - I don't get to make decisions in such a situation that would be worthy of telling my potential new employers about. How about this "Well, I get to decide what fuel I want on the sectors I'm flying" WOW!!!!!!!! Bet they haven't heard that before. Or "Well we had bad weather one day, and had to divert. My company specifies alternates, but I told the Capt it was my decision to go there, I'd fly it, and he could get the weather". Wow. Or maybe not so... Get my point???
I do get to make decisions, and am encouraged to do so by the Capts I fly with. My whole point was that due to a relative lack of flying experience (I'm 22) I didn't have many decent answers to their questions, which as far as I'm concerned had little to do with me as a person. So what if someone else has had an emergency where they made a great decision because the Capt had become incapacitated?!?!? Does that automatically make them a better person for the job? I was being interviewed for a FIRST OFFICER position - a position where you do know how to fly, blah blah blah, but can be moulded and TAUGHT along the way. Surely those questions would be far better suited to a direct entry capt, who most likely has got some stories to tell.
Oh, and would it have been better for me to LIE and come up with some corker examples???

>>Also we have no individual restriction on x-wind limits like many(all FO's are 2/3 airplane limits) and unlike many airlines in the UK our FO's can call STOP and touch flight controls such as speedbrakes<<

Umm, we have the same crosswind limits after 100hrs, and FO's being allowed to touch the flight controls?! Surely not!! If I was going to join a company where they thought they were special because they allowed a fully trained FO to touch a flying control, I'd definitely be going to the wrong place!

[behind_the_second_midland]

82

Well don't go to Britannia then as last time I heard they weren't allowed to touch the speedbrakes. Maybe someone can comment?

Also many airlines do not allow FO's to call stop and sign their licence P2.

As for your interview, If I interviewed a serving airline FO and they couldn't enlighten me with a decision making process that they had gone through, or were forced to make, which had an impact on the operation, I probably wouldn't give them the job either.

However did you explain that your limited experience made the question difficult, but then proceed to expand on other situations in life where a similar decision process was required?

As for lying, no, but you do have to sell yourself.

All that said if you are a female with long legs and two other assets, who cares?:8

Good luck wherever you have ended up

[er82]

Yes I did. Please don't think I sat there going - ummmmmm, sorry can' think of anything. I'd gone into it well-planned, and because I knew I had limited experience in flying I had plenty of other suitable alternative situations.....

As for going through the decision-making process - yup. Done it many times...and told them about such times....

And two ticks in the boxes for long legs and other assets. Obviously not good enough assets - although I think they're a decent handful!!! (Thinking back, I was interviewed by two women.......)

[JW411]

Is it really true that BA only allow their F/Os to land in 2/3rds of the aircraft crosswind (demonstrated) limit?

If true, you obviously don't have much faith in them!

Our F/Os have no such get-out clause and have to be able to hack the full 35 knots across.

Furthermore, I have been a TRI/TRE for donkey's years and have NEVER signed a F/O's license as P2. I can't believe this happens.

[behind_the_second_midland]

82

In that case I look forward to meeting you;)

and of course will female recruiters you may have had just a few too many assets.

The girl from BACX that has just got in was obviously interviewed by blokes!

[Harry Wragg]

Dear Hoppy

I apologise if my view of BA is as stated, but these are the facts as I see them. I cannot comment on everyones experience of BA, only my own. Since you have no idea about my background and experiences then you cannot really comment on my viewpoint.

Generalisations are "generally" dangerous so I try to avoid them. However BA recruits people who are interested in working for BA and BA alone. They have to be a blank canvas(much like Tim in The Apprentice) in order that they may be suitably programmed. BA requires people who will fit in, they do not need to interested in their area of expertise. For that reason many of the managers within BA have little or no expertise of their area of concern as BA is of the opinion that a manager is "a manager" and can be slotted in anywhere within the organisation.

Also, pilots are selected for their ability to be BA people rather than pilots. TEP's do indeed come from a variety of backgrounds but it is their interest in BA that is important not whether they are interested in flying. Remember BA can teach anyone to fly (this opinion is not mine but that of the BA training dept).

From my experiences elsewhere I can confirm that other companies seem to recruit people that are interested in flying first and foremost and therefore do not care how they get a job, as long as its a flying job. BA's pilots consist of a large portion of people who consider the "lifestyle" that BA offers to be of prime importance.

The money is alright, especially if you are inexperienced. But moving from any other company with experience and you are liable to be less well off.

ER82, I don't know where you went wrong but my guess is that you were not deemed to be a BA person. That may be a good thing as it will allow you the opportunity to work for a company where you are better suited. Please do not fixate on BA as the be all and end all.

Some people view it as the best company to work for in aviation, that viewpoint depends on your goals and interests.

Please don't believe the hype, a lot of people do, and they don't like it when its pointed out that the emperor has no clothes.

Harry

[MAX]

Sorry mate but us Britts boys/gals certainly DO touch the speedbrake. There is a crosswind limit on S/O's but not F/O's. Although I more than happy to hand over in a 40knot crosswind. Im not too proud to admit.

All F/O's from ALL companies should be prepared to say STOP. How can you be sure the captain didnt becomae incapacitated at the start of the roll?

The BA selection isnt that hard. If you dont have flying examples use something from other aspects of your life. I personally turned BA down as us Britannia mob still have a final salary pension(even for new joiners), RAPID command due to expansion and ,oh yes, we get to touch the speedbrake.

MAX:cool:

[beauport potato man]

nice reply MAX.......

sensible thoughts from someone who has been through the BA mill and seen better sense.

You keeping well?

BPM

[kishna]

All F/O's from ALL companies should be prepared to say STOP.

Not in our company. F/O's are only to identify a failure or malfunction then bring it to the attention of the captain who in turn makes the decision to stop.

But that's another story...

[MAX]

Kishna, What happens if the captain doesnt reply or is dead? My point is while it may not be you company SOP you certainly should be prepared to take action.

BPM, mate I am very well. Creature of leisure the last 2 months, which needs explaining. Beers soon.:ok:

MAX:cool:

[Danny]

Many many moons ago, when I was still wet behind the ears, and just a year or so's experience on turboprops and didn't really understand what working for BA was really like, I applied to them. I think it was when they started DEP recruitment after a rather long hiatus, '94 or '95?!?!

Took me several attempts to fill in the application form as my hand writing is atrocious (should have been a doctor) and my feeble attempt to remove the staples and feed it through my dot matrix printer (ah, those were the days) in order to make my responses legible, disastrously resulted in a chewed up, mangled mass of pre-pulped, heavy bond confetti. :{ After begging and scrounging around I managed to procure another application form and I and tortuously hand wrote all the little essays in the manner an ancient scribe would have done were he producing an important manuscript.

There was I, keen but slightly more mature as I'd started late in my career as a professional pilot believing that my chances would not be helped because my hours were not commensurate with my age, anxiously waiting for the reply. Obviously I was disappointed when I read in the reply that I had not passed the first hurdle and would not be invited for an interview. There was a glimmer of hope as they told me I could re-apply after 12 months had elapsed but I respectfully declined their offer.

Several years later, after I had progressed from turboprops onto shiny Boeing twins and through contacts developed through my association with PPRuNe, I learnt the real reason I never made it to a BA interview. Apparently, the company BA employed to vet the initial applications used some kind of 'matrix' to scan the application form. Based on the initial information such as age, height, weight, hair colour, post code etc. etc., they thus 'filtered' out those who were deemed unworthy of consideration by BA. If you passed this initial vetting you were then considered for invitation to interview.

After pressing my 'contact' for more details it eventually transpired that I wasn't invited for interview, not because of the illegibility of my hand writing, not even the spurious but lovingly crafted essays about my exploits where I shone through with tough decisions that reflected leadership and true management potential. No, none of those things even made it for consideration. The reason I was not invited for an interview was........... my height to weight ratio fell outside the 'matrix'! :eek:

So, if you've applied to BA but not even made it to interview consider the fact that it may be because you aren't the right shape! :O If you did make it to the interview and then got no further, there is a possibility that you may be built to the right proportions but still be the wrong 'shape'! :bored:

In other words, BA don't like fat blokes! Mind you, I now fly the B744 for Britains Flag Carrier and I'm told that on this fleet we are also known as potential 'sumo wrestlers'! :} It must be all those sandwiches, Upper Class meals and laying around on the beach. ;) Never fear, there is life beyond BA. :ok:

[Craggenmore]

Interestingly enough, Logan Air (BA Franchise) ask you for your Weight and Height on their application form.....

maybe it's time to start :yuk: after meal times!



:confused:

[maxy101]

Danny Perhaps you should have applied as CC. They obviously use a different height/weight matrix judging by some of our staff