Flybe Purchase EMB195 (merged)

[Flying Fiona]

Yes Flybe are at it again!

Looks like JF is about to sign for 15 195's. All has been agreed in principle and it's down to the nitty gritty.

I can tell you that the reason behind the selection of such a bizzare choice of aircraft. It simply boils down to salary.

Jim French has been quoted as saying that he wants to keep down salarys to pilots and by introducing equipment that nobody else operates will do just that.

I think the selection of this type will bite back very hard indeed.

Good luck Flybe

[Rooster_mk1]

Hey Fiona,

I don't mean to be cheeky but do you have a source or is this a bit of insider knowledge?

Cheers
R.:ok:

[Flying Fiona]

It's from the inside.

[er82]

We've heard it all before. Will believe it when we see it.

[RadAlt]

FF, mistress of winder-uppers!:rolleyes:

[flybe.com]

Flying Fiona - Sorry but that's utter tosh, and has caused me to doubt anything "from the inside" you may come up with in the future. Jim has never been quoted making any such comments about pilots salaries.

[willywick]

FF,

I would be very cautious of what exactly you post on a public discussion board. Negotiations between flybe and aircraft manufacturers are supposed to be confidential! Please refer to your duly signed contract. We are monitoring your posts closely as you appear to have the objective of hindering to the airline's development and strategy.

[MOR]

We are monitoring your posts closely

Golly! Now I AM scared! Watch out Fiona, the flybe Flying Squad are onto you... expect to get your front door bashed down at 3am...

Such nonsense from alleged "professionals"...

[HZ123]

If this is the case EMB must be giving the aircrafts away. At best the 190 is untested and the few flying in the EU can provide little info on long term suitablity / reliability and robustness. I find it strange that your company would opt for this plane without seeing a lot more in the service of others. The success of its bedfellows 135/145 is mainly to do with cheap purchase at the outset, most Uk operators had a lot of teething troubles with the first batch which has taken some 5 years to sort out.

[Wycombe]

not tried & tested, few operators in Europe....sounds like similar circumstances to the introduction of the Q400!

[Flying Fiona]

Dicky Dick!

I think not. You are full of your name sake!! Ha Ha!!

Its a Rumour network. I'm only repeating a leak from the management and there aint nothing wrong in that.

There is a mole in every company and Flybe are no different. Get some info from yours so I can monitor your posts. Ha!!!!!

[Maude Charlee]

Bombardier must be a bit miffed they went for the Jungle Jet - alegedly.

I am a mole and I live in a hole. :D

[terrier21]

Moles and Rumour merchants alike leaks from the inside, any news about expansion at Brs?

[Smokie]

There is one sorry excuse for "management" that I have had first hand experience of with his indiscretions, leaks, and down right blabber mouthing.
The best way to deal with these types is to feed them plausible misinformation, then sit back and watch them wipe the egg of their weasley faces.

Works for me.:ok:

[Dutchie]

Pilot salary is such a minimal expense compared to operating cost and purchasing that I can only think that French sees the reason mentioned in the initial post as a bonus, not a primary reason to decide. :8 (if they decide that is

[Trislander]

The Embraer website reports that E-195 performance at sea level, ISA and range limited to 500NM requires 1,600m of runway. That's fine for the GCI-LGW run but what about SOU-AGP, etc? Any hotter or further than this means going via BOH on a regular basis. I'm guessing these figures are given with rated T/O thrust and not flex too?

Max range fuel (1800NM) requires 2,200m.

:confused:

[Smokie]

Flex thrust uses more fuel.;)

[flybe.com]

Dutchie - That's exactly right, and the reason why Jim would never make such a comment about salaries.

[Hudson Bay]

I think you will find that the cost of salaries is one of the most expensive part of any business. In Aviation the biggest expense is fuel and next lies the cost of Pilot wages.

If you remember the 737 had performance problems in its early days. They were eventually sorted out. There is no reason the 195 can't have better lifting devices fitted or engines uprated. Airline requirements can be met if needed.

The guys at Flybe will know very shortly what Aircraft they are getting. In the meantime keep speculating and let the free-moles fly!!

[notac]

Can you honestly see flybe placing a firm order for any new aircraft type, or any aircraft manufacturer taking them seriously, when the company is very publicly up for sale and the current owners are trying their hardest to offload their responsibilities.

If I was a manufacturer and JF came to me saying he would like to buy 15 new aircraft, but before we take ownership of said aircraft we are selling the company and we have no idea what the wishes of the future owners are, I would not take them seriously.

Sounds to me it is more propaganda from Exeter to keep the troops sweet and any announcement will be pure wishful thinking.

[Trislander]

Have been told Embraer have developed a high-lift device option for the EMB-195 to get around the performance issues at the smaller strips. I must say that having looked around the -190 and -170 at EGLF last July they are lovely a/c and a lot of thinking has gone on in terms of the design both inside and out.

[MOR]

notac is quite right. In addition, I don't believe for a minute that flybe has enough moolah in the bank to be able to make the necessary financial guarantees (unless Embraer are as desperate as Bombardier were).

[er82]

Seems that's why they didn't go for Airbus or Boeing - because they both wanted a deposit straight up!!!! Silly people should realise Flybe don't give out money - not even to employees!!

[MOR]

Only because they don't have any... shows you how profitable those Q400's really are...

[beauport potato man]

MOR and notac,

you are quite right in assuming flybe itself - the airline - doesn't have the "moolah" to purchase new a/c, but then how do you think they got around this issue with the $800+ bombardier order?

I don't think even a "desparate" company like Bombardier would make that much of a financial risk.

Also you are looking at the airline alone. The engineering company makes good profits, Walker Aviation and especially the AIRCRAFT LEASING arm also turns in healthy profits.

The family may want to ditch the airline but do you know for sure that these arms of the business will go also?

The company is private and family run and makes alot of money for Rosedale Investments. Sounds sensible to me to only show modest profits in the UK whilst the bulk of the money channels itself to JER.

I bet the aircraft leasing company has the "moolah" to acquire any new a/c - if it should want to.

BPM

[MOR]

Nah... they had major issues finding the money for the RJX order, and the leasing arm didn't help them then. Why? Because the leasing arm is not swimming in money. It is an urban myth that the leasing arm makes a lot of money. In reality, the leasing arm is simply a financial device to manage that side of the business. It often varies the lease payments, and has done so to keep the company afloat.

The engineering arm doesn't make a loss, but neither does it make mega-millions, and where do you think the money for the hangar came from?

The company is private and family run and makes alot of money for Rosedale Investments.

Nonsense. The shareholders have had to spend many millions propping the company up over the last few years - that has yet to be repaid in full - the expected pay-day being the sale of the company.

how do you think they got around this issue with the $800+ bombardier order?

Very simple. The Q400 was a dead duck without the flybe order - we were essentially a "re-launch" customer. They took a major risk on us, because we were taking a major risk on an aircraft that, at the time, was a real problem child. It was either go with flybe - the only customer in sight - or close the line and cut up the jigs. Makes it all the more amusing when you consider all the hype surrounding the entry of the Q400 into service for flybe. My well-placed spies tell me that JF was less than impressed with the aircraft when the first one arrived. He thought it was going to be quiet, smooth, and give consistent smooth landings. How wrong can you be...

So the simple answer is, Bombardier had no choice, and neither did flybe.

Now you seem to imply that you are in the know. Here's a question for you - do you know what flybe had to sell in order to find the guarantees for the RJX order? And do they still have anything of value left to sell?

The answer to the last is NO, and the other companies aren't that cash-rich either. If they were, they could place the order for the new jets tommorrow morning. Ain't going to happen, of course. By all means quote some figures if you think differently.

More to the point, the shareholders would be unlikely to sell the company (or group of companies) if they thought that the whole thing was going to be profitable with no further input. The reality is that the company needs lots of money to move on. If they truly were committed to going with a new jet - and remember, they have been saying this for over three years now - they could easily have committed after a short evaluation period. There is little to choose between the Airbus or Boeing families in terms of operational ability, the wildcard is of course Embraer - but it doesn't take three years. The issue is money (or lack of it).

Also, why do you think we have never gone public, as has been suggested so many times? Simply because the company/shareholders know that it would be a disaster, as the City simply doesn't have the confidence in the company that it would need for the float to be successful.

The reality is that Boeing and Airbus will be keen to sell to us but will want guarantees that we can't give. Embraer might be more more flexible, but probably not, and their product is far from proven. They are, however, the most likely at this point for the reasons above.

It would be nice to see an order soon, but don't hold your breath.

JF has done a bang-up job, no doubt about that, but you can only do so much with very limited resources.

[Oshkosh George]

how do you think they got around this issue with the $800+ bombardier order?

Well,considering they are all leased,where did you get this gem?

[beauport potato man]

you still need financial guarantees whether a/c are leased or bought

[MOR]

Hardly. If the aircraft is leased, it is a simple matter for the lessor take the aircraft back. Different to building aircraft specifically for a client, where if the client reneges, the manufacturer can be in very deep do-dos.

Also, with a lease you are not dealing with a manufacturer, you are dealing with a leasing company, and it does make a difference.

[beauport potato man]

so as i said - you still need financial guarantees on a lease.

Never said how much - just said you do.

[acro]

Flybe.com, I can assure you that this has been said in the past! Therefore, I and about 50 other pilots left since November last year. Willywick is whistling the right flybe management tone, he might be one of these top class managers. As in the past, this might be just another attempt to provide people from leaving. I heard numbers above 60 (pilots only)who left since November last year.

[ProfJackRabbit]

FlyBe EMB195s ain't gonna happen anytime soon.

[flybe.com]

acro - I have no doubt at all that it has been said, but it wouldn't have come from Jim.

[Flying Fiona]

Spoke with the Engineers at BHX today and they have course dates for the 195. Deliveries are being planned for July 2006. An official announcement will be made at the next O/C meeting on 7 and 8 June.

[Nil further]

Fiona

You believe the BHX engineers!!!!!!!! im gonna die laughing !

What is the proposed pay scale for this big jet ?

NF

[beauport potato man]

Nil Further....

Big Jet??

I think this rumour is fast becoming fact now. MOR and his sceptics will have you believe otherwise but we'll have to read him eating his words next month on this forum.....

The a/c is brand new and so we're probably getting a fantastic deal on it...

It's ANOTHER dead type rating so fewer pilots can wander off too other companies as would have happened with Boeing/Airbus...

There's no salary comparator in the UK so the pilot wage is safe (at it's present hideously low scale)...

It also represents the only (and maybe not the best) 100-120 seat jet in the market at this time...

Here's looking to the fututre.....

And before you all bite me about why i should care? - I'm in Jersey so we probably won't get one anyway, so i'll have to prostitute myself to another loco for the cost of a type rating to further my career.

Wicked.


BPM

[Hudson Bay]

Rumours are coming from Brazil that it is indeed the 195. More money men are in Exeter today. I guess the official announcement will be tomorrow. (Standard reporting policy for Flybe)

By standard reporting policy I mean Weekend reporting.

[MOR]

Silly boy. I'm not a sceptic - I said that if any new jet happened, it would probably be an Embraer because the deal would not involve the same level of financial commitment. If an announcement is made regarding the Embraer, it really just reinforces my point that we can't find the dosh to make the promises that Boeing or Airbus require. And please don't try and tell me flybe prefer the Embraer - they'll take it because it is all they can afford, and then talk it up just like they did with the Q400...

It also represents the only (and maybe not the best) 100-120 seat jet in the market at this time...

Apart from that "other" 120-seat jet... the AVRO RJ/146...;)

[er82]

Totally typical..... should we really have xepected anything else form the management?!?!?!

Unfortunately there will be lots of people who will be quite happy to be re-bonded onto this pretty useless type.....

[ATIS]

From past experiences the official word never came from Exeter, it was either from the caterers or cleaners.

It was the caterers who told me that my base was closing, not Exeter.

That was the last straw, I bailed quicktime.

BPM surely Jersey will be in the running for the new jet (performance withstanding). JER-LGW is one of their flagship routes.

Surely even the jelly baby brained folk of Exeter won't compete with BA737's with a "Super Dash".

And unfortunately you can't blame the management for thinking that with an Airbus/Boeing fleet, people will start to leg it as soon as their bond has expired cos the majority will.

I hope things work out for the best for you guys. I always had a good laugh when I was there.

[Smokie]

I can assure you that with over 90 Pilots having recently left and/or handed in their notice, there aint no more laughing going on.

Emb 195's is just goin to make matters worse.

BA are actively recruiting with sensible prerequisits at last and the flood gates are only just opening. All the bright keen young Tyros will be off like a shot and who can blame them.

The first has already handed in his notice to start with BA and doesn't seem to give 2 hoots about taking his Q400/146 bond with him. This is merely a formality to him, as he will be on considerably more than his current salary, at BA anyway, so any Flybe Bond is pretty irrelevant.

[akerosid]

Just saw a report (Interactive Investor, via Airliners.net news) that negotiations are under way for the Walker Group stake to be sold to 3i.

Apparently, the plan is to sell this stake (which apparently values the co. at £120m) ahead of a stock market floatation sometime next year.

No confirmation yet on the 195s?

[Flying Fiona]

OPS DIRECTOR LISTEN UP.

YOU HAVE JUST TRAINED UP A 146 F/O. HE COMPLETED HIS FINAL LINE CHECK LAST WEEK AND RESIGNED THIS WEEK.

HE WILL PAY YOUR £13,000 BOND BACK BUT DO YOU THINK HE IS BOTHERED??

WHAT WILL YOU DO NOW? TRAIN ANOTHER F/O??

SORT IT OUT.

THIS IS JUST ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF WHAT IS HAPPENING ON A DAY TO DAY BASIS.

DON'T DESTROY THE COMPANY I HAVE HELPED TO BUILD.

IF YOU DON'T CARE ANYMORE. BLOODY WELL LEAVE. I AM SICK OF WATCHING YOU WALTZ AROUND WITHOUT A CARE IN THE WORLD.

YOU MIGHT BE NEARING THE END OF YOUR LIFE BUT I'M NOT AND I CARE FOR FLYBE UNLIKE YOU.

[Fried_Chicken]

no mention of Embraer here...

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=8679067

Fried Chicken

[notac]

No other news agency is quoting a manufacturer so I suggest Reuters are making an un educated guess. My money is still on Embraer.

[Nakata77]

same here

it would be a wise move. Not only because they will be able to take advantage of huge discounts - embraer need to shift more of the ERJ19X.

But it also fits with Flybe's alleged unique model of 'regional' low cost flights rather than the longer mid-range Europe-wide low cost routes.

[akerosid]

Looks like it's going to be the Embraer 195. Four abreast (and hopefully BE will stick to that!) and by all accounts, a pleasant flying experience ...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Flybe agrees 550 million pound Embraer plane deal -source
06/06/2005 00:47


LONDON (Reuters) - Regional airline Flybe has agreed to buy up to $1 billion (550 million pounds) in new planes from Brazil’s Embraer as part of a fleet replacement programme, a source said on Sunday.

Flybe and Embraer were scheduled to announce details of the order, which will have a value of up to around $1 billion, including options, early Monday, the industry source said.

[kuningan]

BBC Radio 4 'Today' confirm at 07.20 this morning - Jim French arguing that the Embraer has the right number of seats (115) vs Boeing/Airbus (150) for the routes the airline operates and has 20% lower fuel burn/seat mile than current aircraft. Didn't say where the £££ coming from tho.....

Peter
Fogbound....in Guernsey

[jamesbrownontheroad]

I'm encouraged that FlyBe is sticking to it's business plan, and staying 'under the radar' of Ryanair, Easyjet et. al....

*j*

[kuningan]

'J'

Agree - IF Flybe is to survive it will have to be different from Easy/Ryan - Reuters news story with more details here (http://tinyurl.com/9bch7)

Peter

Interesting...Reuters says flybe is launch customer, but the Embraer site (http://tinyurl.com/dknfh) lists Crossair as having 15 definite orders. Also looks like flybe with 118 pax will have 31" pitch vs 108 @32.....Also will take off field length of between 7340 ft (MTOW) and 5170 ft (500 nm) let the thing out of Guernsey....or are we now on props for the duration....?

[Fried_Chicken]

I believe that Swiss (previously known as Crossair) have delayed their order (along with the Emb170s they had on order)

FC

[bmibaby.com]

Crossair ordered the aircraft prior to the reorganisation of the company as Swiss, and as with their other EMB-170/190 family aircraft, they have constantly had to delay these orders, as they do not have the funds in place to put in a new fleet type. This may change in the future.

I'm sure that Jet Airways of India is now considered the launch customer for the ERJ-175, after Swiss bailed on that product too. Perhaps the same thing has happened to flybe.

The EMB-190 family aircraft have attracted JetBlue as a very high-profile LCC and if the aircraft is as comfortable & airline-friendly as the E170s, I'm confident it'll be an excellent type for flybe.

[TCAS FAN]

According to the Embraer website, its official, an order for 14 ERJ 195s with options on 12 more. Must have been a very good deal, but will it work out of SOU to AGP/MJV/ALC?

[fokker]

So it's not all doom and gloom then: Flybe has announced orders for 14 Emb 195s with 12 options. 950 million bucks' worth.

easyRyanJet eat my shorts!!

[Daza]

BHX is to get a big boost in June there will be a press announcement at the end of the month that will see BHX and Flybe increasing there passengers from 2 to 3.5 million pa. Article in the Birmingham Post today
Daza

[ATIS]

Excellent for Flybe. However I'm sure that theres doom and gloom felt by the pilots who were hoping for Airbus/Boeing so that they could leg it at a later stage.

Cheer up guys, I'm sure its a vast improvement on the 146

[cmcloughlin]

Wow, that is supurb!

Are they retiring some of the 146s because of this?

I heard somewhere that they had a 733 in service, as they needed an increase in capacity, I guess this is going to fill the gap:confused:

Something different than 73s or A32*s buzzing around. Anyone have an idea on the routes they will serve?

Also, just to say hi, as I am new around here :8 :ouch:

[Biggles Flies Undone]

A couple of extracts from today's Dow Jones newswire:

Flybe will take delivery of its first 195 in Autumn 2006. These planes will initially be deployed at Flybe's major bases in Birmingham, Southampton, Belfast, Exeter, Jersey, Guernsey, Edinburgh and Glasgow. The delivery of these firm orders will mean that Flybe will have a total fleet size of between 59 firm and 91 including options aircraft by 2009.

"The 195 will replace our 146 BAe fleet, and bring cost and service efficiencies. It completes our fleet rationalisation strategy commenced in 2003 and will give us the youngest fleet in the airline sector. "It also means that the business has addressed the strategic question of how to replace the 146 and provide a 10 year platform for profitable growth," French said. "We chose the 195 not only for its operational and cost advantage but also for its outstanding environmental performance.

[Dirty Mach]

The Embraer doesn't actually represent an increase in seat capacitysince it has the same number of seats as the 146 - 300 series. It will be interesting getting in and out of (and parking it) at Southampton. and yes, it is a bit disappointing not to be getting a useful type rating. I'm not sure that you can improve on the 146, the most succesful British airliner (with the world's most forgiving undercarriage!), but it will be cool to get some whizzy gadgetry to play with in the flight deck! :p

[Dash-7 lover]

Well done Flybe...... Great news - nice looking aircraft as well!

[MarkD]

Did Bombardier offer CRJ-900? As flybe is a Q400 customer I would think they would be hoping for the business. Unfortunately the C110/130 is too far in the distance for this order, if they ever find an engine for it that is.

[jfriday]

This is an interesting article with regards to Flybe at SOU. It states that they are to base 5 195s at SOU.

http://www.theecho.co.uk/hampshire/southampton/news/SOTON_NEWS_BUSI0.html

[johnwalton]

From Flybe press release (http://www4.flybe.com/news/0506/06.htm) :

Flybe, one of the top five European low cost airlines, today confirmed a US $950million order to purchase up to 26 Embraer 195 aircraft (14 firm / 12 options). As a result Flybe will become the global launch customer for this member of the Embraer 170/195 family, and comes hard on the heels of Flybe’s 2004 announcement of the $1billion purchase of up to 61 Q400’s (41 firm / 20 options).

[Stan Sted]

Are they still waiting for operational approval for London City Airport?

[CentreFix25]

It's great looking back at some of the earlier posts. FF must be quite smug while some others who think they are in the know obviously aren't.

[cmcloughlin]

Ah, I was right:D

Anyway, it will be interesting to see around! Will Manx be getting any of their 143s as they were looking for some I think, not sure though:suspect:

[Guern]

Didn't think they would fit in/out of Guernsey are they going to operate with reduced loads?

[LTNman]

Flying Fiona wrote
Looks like JF is about to sign for 15 195's.

flybe.com replied Flying Fiona - Sorry but that's utter tosh, and has caused me to doubt anything "from the inside" you may come up with in the future

Flying Fiona stated
Spoke with the Engineers at BHX today and they have course dates for the 195. Deliveries are being planned for July 2006. An official announcement will be made at the next O/C meeting on 7 and 8 June.

but Nil further replied You believe the BHX engineers!!!!!!!! im gonna die laughing !

Looks like some people need to eat some humble pie. Well done Flying Fiona:ok:

[Devonair]

This is how the news was reported in Flybe's home town:
http://www.thisisexeter.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=137208&command=displayContent&sourceNode=137013&home=yes&contentPK=12584341&localNewsNodeId=137002

1.2 million passengers through Exeter from Flybe.

[Trislander]

Good move by us IMHO. TCAS Fan, I'm sure flybe. would have looked into perfomance for these routes before commiting so much cash!! I've heard anyhow that the engines to be fitted to our a/c are uprated versions of those normally equipped on the 195 that GE have been testing.

How exciting!!! :D :D :D The new livery in the flybe promo pics looks cool too, it looks as though they are finally doing away with the British European branding as in the current logo. :8

Tri :ok:

[Trislander]

Hey Dirty Mach,

SOU can accomodate 757's on it's stands so i doubt the 195 will have any parking probs. Sorry to be pedantic but the 195 will hold 6 more pax than our 146-300's which carry a max of 112!! :8

118 pax 4 abreast-that's 30 rows, 10 more than the Q400/146-300!

Tri :ok:

[jabird]

Well "leaked" FF.

I always thought this would make more sense than going for the 150 seat market. Looks like my comment in Feb (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=162762) was still "out" by 5.

Are there any bookies taking bets on these things, you would have cleaned up!

[Smokie]

Hmmmmm...... Literally a Breath of FRESH Air !:ok:

[Trislander]

Smokie,

You mean 'A Breath Of Fresh Airline Thinking' or 'Plane Common Sense'! ;)

[Pies]

I think "Doom an Gloom" is a little harsh. Just a little bit miffed about not getting Airbus/ Boeing! :{ However, the Emb195 is .82, not to sure about service ceiling, and does look like a nice aircraft, so hopefully see you boys high above the clouds for once, instead of bouncing through the tops!!

:cool:

[satis 5]

dirty mach - 118 pax is 20 more than the 146-200.
not all the 146 in service are 300s.

i think its the right aircraft for us.
were getting head up displays!? cat3 operations?
18mins to 350 FL cant be bad.

www.embraer.com/english/content/aeronaves/aviacao_comercial/erj190200/default.asp

a nice expansion of capacity i think,
from the following available seats:
bhx 2.1million
bhd 1.95 million
sou 2.2
and all the other bases too. (whose capacities werent listed, sorry)

that'll not do some of our competitors? any favours.
at a particular base,
we already have 400 more seats than them, whilst having less staff.
(and undoubtidly more lean, pay+ conditions)

this'll take us closer to 500 more seats (now theres a clue)
that is if we havent taken the place over, lock stock +two smoking order books.

[satis 5]

sou to go from 1.5m to 3million (mike R)?
think they're going to need more than 1 extra jet there,
even if they all are 195's eventualy.

going to double the night stoppers of both types?

[Smokie]

Trilander, I mean "Exactly" what I said in the last post.;)

[MarkD]

Didn't realise you could pack so many into a 195. It will be interesting if the rumoured A318 LCY certification goes ahead and E195 doesn't!

[overcast]

I wonder, that as FlyBe mention Guernsey will be getting 195s, does this mean that they know that the runway will be extended.

4800 feet seems a bit short for the 195.

[Flightrider]

There is one slightly odd thing about this. The firm orders for the 195 are 14 in number, which is exactly the same as the quantity of 146s in service at the moment (six -200s and eight -300s). However, JF is quoted as saying elsewhere that the first 195s will replace the 737-300s on lease. If this is the case, and there are three of those in service, that means that they need 17 jets to replace all of the existing fleet on a one-for-one basis. Does this mean replacement of jets with Q400s on some routes and anyone any idea of likely candidates?

[jamesbrownontheroad]

Since I've not been at BHD early enough in the morning lately (and because the cynical money grabbing gits upstairs have more or less obliterated the view from the departure lounge with a massive duty free shop... I thought BFS were the only ones who'd stoop that low :hmm: ) I've not been able to count BE's fleet that's based there - how many Q400 and 146 are based at BHD, and what routes do the 146 currently operate?

The capabilities of a Q400 and 195 fleet suggest that there could be some changing of aircraft types on different routes, and since JF has said 'some' will be based at BHD, it'd be interesting to know where they'll be flying to...

*j*

[Konkordski]

Are they still waiting for operational approval for London City Airport?


Think you're missing a key point. Flybe pulled out of LCY six months ago and isn't planning to go back. So it doesn't need the 195 to have LCY certification.

[tilewood]

Does anyone know what the 195's runway requirements are?

If Flybe are able to operate it commercially out of Guernsey,
then Southend's runway should be OK, if as rumoured the
airline is looking to Southend for it's South East base.

[Stan Sted]

Sorry Konkordski

Should have made my post clearer and asked: Has the E195 obtained operational approval for LCY? No doubt other airlines are interested because one of the aircraft was recently at City for certification purposes.

[beauport potato man]

flightrider,

according to my APS Mass and Index sheet dated 3rd June 2005 we have 15 B146s.

200's AJ, AK, AS, AV, AW, AX, AY.

300's AM, BA, BB, BC, BD, BE, BF, BG.

I agree that that still does leave a disparity in the figures though.

BPM

and whilst i'm here..........

where are the negative and pedantic views of notac and MOR who said that this order was "propaganda" "never gonna happen" "pie in the sky".............

Need i go on?

You look pretty stu-pid now guys.

But i'm sure you've got a smart ass comment to come back at me with!

BPM

[EGAC_Ramper]

With regards to FlyBE at BHD from memory when I left there in February was

2 BAe 146's
5 Dash-8 Q400's

The 146's operated the BHX and LGW rotations.


Regards :ok:

P.S. Don't know if more have been based since LPL,ABZ and NWH routes started.

[skywaytoheaven]

Does anyone know what engines it has? They look smaller than CFM56/IAE's.

[Smokie]

It is powered by 2 x GE CF34 - 10E 's:ok:

[Oshkosh George]

So will they also be looking for similar sized replacements for the leased 733s,or are they not filling these aircraft?

[aeulad]

They are filling the 733s very well. Yesterdays pax figures for all flights out of BHX on the 733 were over 110. Pax figures from EXT were 148 both ways on the ALC, a little less on the AGP and the BES had about 60 o/b and 90 i/b.

Regards

Mike

[FE Hoppy]

170 was at LCY not 195.
190 is not certified yet so nobody has runway requirements. If you want an Idea check th EMB website.
Single Type rating for 170/175/190/195
cf34-10e various subtypes max 18500lbf possibility of growth as required.

[parttimer]

may create probs at sou as 195's can only park on stands 1-4 (out of 13) as tail is too high for other stands as proximity to runway. This will no doubt piss off other airlines as 1-4 are most convenient for boarding/disembarking etc.... hmmmm...

[TCAS FAN]

Trislander, on the subject of being pedantic, not all Stands at SOU can accomodate B757s, which actually take up 1.5 Stands when parked.

Firstly only that part of the apron between the mini Stand 1 (after BAA built a giant portakabin next to the original Stand) and Stand 5 can take the weight.

Secondly, due to the tail fin height of a B757 (and B737/A320) they cannot park on Stand 5.

Stands 6-12 cannot be used. Due to the proximity of these Stands to the runway, a current height restriction of around 9.5 metres applies to Stands 6-12, fine for a 146, but not a lot else. Above this height an aircraft is an obstacle to the runway and could affect the runway operation.

The Stand 6-12 height issue could have been resolved during the planning of the new multi-storey car park, insetting its eastern edge to allow for enlargement of the Stands. However the airport's senior management at the time decreed that it should go in its current position, against the advice of their qualified subordinate staff. Furhtermore when the car park was completed it posed a security threat, overlooking Stands 6-12. This resulted in further considerable expense, to BAA, to install a high security fence around the upper level.

If I were a BAA shareholder I'd want those responsible bringing to book, but unfortunately as with many large companies when you reach a certain level of management, such cock-ups are glossed over.

Bottom line is, where are the ERJ 195s going to park when Stands 2,3,4 are taken up with B737s/A320s and the odd B757? With the tail fin height of 10.52 metres, can the 195 be squeezed onto Stands 6-12, or will the car park win!

[Few Cloudy]

From where - the manufacturer or a downsizing airline?

[Daza]

Local news reports Flybe plan to open 30 destinations with there new aircraft any bets where to?
Daza

[FlyboyUK]

Seems Embraer haven't yet updated their orderbook! :E

Embraer 195 Orders (http://www.embraer.com/english/content/aeronaves/aviacao_comercial/erj190200/back_log/)

[Trislander]

Sorry Smokie, I completely missed your point in your previous post but I now understand what you mean! <Cough!>

Tri :ok:

[Trislander]

Hey BPM, how's it goin mate.

G-JEAV has now left our fleet to sit in the corner of an airfield somewhere looking sorry for itself. No more ghost stories to scare the new recruits with then!

Tri :ok:

[Maude Charlee]

Well, as somebody bobbing around in the hold pool for the Q400, this is pleasant news indeed. Looking forward very much to the Dash already, and beginning to drool very slightly at the thought of playing with the Embraer sometime down the line too. Interesting a/c, and with a common rating across the family, perhaps the possibility of some globe trotting too. Anyone in NZ buying yet? :D

[beauport potato man]

Hey tri!

has AV left AGAIN????!!!! was only brought back last week.

Can they not make up their minds??

BPM

[Guern]

Bit odd that Flybe mentioned Guernsey yesterday in press release but today they are quoted in the Guernsey Press as stating won't be able to use them here because of runway length but the fact it is slippy in the wet!

Looks like we are to be banished to the Q400 then!

[hapzim]

Only Q400's, that will be a shot in the eye for all those Aurigny bashers who praise the jet operation as the only wayto get to LGW.:ouch:

[Guern]

To be honest it doesn't bother me too much as I tend to pick which ever is cheaper Aurigny or Flybe for the particular route/dates I am flying. I know that some people are fussy and prefer the jet, when it is a short hop to LGW I couldn't give a monkey's!

I guess if Flybe go over to just the Q400 when the 146's are phased out here then they may lose a unique selling point on the LGW route.

[Riker]

Has anyone here actually flown on a E170 yet? I visited the States not long ago and actually flew on a United Express E170 (Chataqua) out of Chicago and it was a great experience. Great takeoff speed and very rapid ascent.

I visited the flight deck on the way out and took a long look. I was very impressed - wide, and of course, super automated. I asked the FO how he liked the aircraft. He was a furloughed United FO who previously flew the A319/A320. His response was interesting - he said that if he was paid "mainline United wages" he would elect to fly the E170 into retirement - he liked it a lot more than the Airbus. It performs well and the front office is very spacious (and nice Primus Epic system).

My guess is that flying an Airbus or a 737NG after flying the E195 will be disappointing. I was extremely impressed and I would suggest you hitch a ride on an E170 (I think LOT is flying them - if you are flying to Poland...) if you can for a preview.

[MarkD]

Riker

The A320 is a 20 year old design these days! I imagine the A320NG might have some refinements whenever it appears.

[MOR]

BPM

Simce you obviously have trouble reading, let me quote you what I posted back on page 2 or 3 of this thread:

I said that if any new jet happened, it would probably be an Embraer because the deal would not involve the same level of financial commitment. If an announcement is made regarding the Embraer, it really just reinforces my point that we can't find the dosh to make the promises that Boeing or Airbus require. And please don't try and tell me flybe prefer the Embraer - they'll take it because it is all they can afford, and then talk it up just like they did with the Q400...

So... if any new jet happened... not that it wouldn't...it would probably be an Embraer... hmm seems I was right... they'll take it because it is all they can afford, and then talk it up just like they did with the Q400... which is what will now happen.

No, I'm pretty happy with what I said. Notac?

[bay17-20]

Trilander / BPM - just to let you know AV is alive and well earning a living for Flybe at BHX.

[mutt]

Buying airplanes is like playing poker, you dont want the manufacturer to know that you are too interested until you have sucked every last concession out of them. FF may have just cost her company a lot of money :(

Mutt.

[Konkordski]

Has anyone here actually flown on a E170 yet?


Yes - the Embraer demonstrator at Dubai '03.

[Trislander]

Bay 17-20 and BPM,

Soz, I heard that AV was no more, but if it has re-joined the fleet once before I guess it could happen again! The haunted one, or so thay say... oooh! :ooh:

Tri :ok:

[notac]

Well BPM as you asked here is the negative aspect;

There is not going to be a 150 seater aircraft therefore we have been strung another bull**** line by the company, so those not leaving in the hope of a useful type rating are now very pissed off.

Instead we are to receive yet another new aircraft type that no one in the UK has any experience on, and we all know what happened in the same situation with the Dash!

Several more years of chaos and tech aircraft to look forward to. Now what about that roster stability!!

That aside it should be a fun aircraft to fly just not the one I wanted to operate.

[perky35]

Not bad! as long as there more comfortable than ERJ 135/145s!

Anyone seen any artist impressions or fake pics of what these Embrears will look like???

As a reply to DAZA, "where will the new destinations be?"

I cant name 30 of them but Flybe have been asking people on the Leeds Bradford Airport website where in France would they like to go. With a list of choices including places like Paris, Toulouse, Chambrey, (the one down south beginning with M which i cant spell lol)
and a few others. so a couple of new destinations from LBA.

I would also assume that they would go to the popular destinations that other LCCs go to.

How far can a EMB 195 go?? whats the furthest destination possible from say London??

[Smokie]

Probably most places around the Lavant.
See nobody believed me when I posted a while back on a previous topic, ref routes from SOU.
Although it will probably need a tech stop from SOU to do that one though.;)

[FE Hoppy]

Has anyone here actually flown on a E170 yet?

Yes and I've (ground)instructed almost all the pilots qualified on type so far.

The 195 is probably the best looking jet I've seen and for an ex L1011 fe thats not easy to say.
It is future designed and the primus epic system is the dogs danglies.
There are one or two small software issues but by the time you flybe chaps get hold of the 195 it will be rather more mature. Dual HGS anyone?
Start reading up on the whole RNP concept for navigation as the aircraft is just waiting for everyone else to catch up.

no you can't get a copy of the manuals from me.
no I can't give you anymore perf info.
Yes I look forward to meeting a few of you over the next couple of years.

[Torycanyon]

Hoppy,
What about the Air Conditioning System on this Aircraft?
Is it Engine Bleed Free and run from an independant Compressor or does it still originate from the Engine Bleeds?

Could be an important move if the former, as the the 146 that it is replacing is none to cleaver to say the least.

[MOR]

What is it that doesn't work on the damn thing ?

Pretty much everything... :p

It's built to a price... so stuff breaks. A lot.

notac has a good point. All those who hung around on the oft-stated promise that we would be getting a 150-seat jet will be fairly annoyed. It makes a mockery of the stated reason to bring the 737s on board too, on the basis that we were "evaluating" them. Were we bollocks. Nice piece of misdirection.

What this really means is that flybe will always be a niche player, with niche aircraft. Definitely a bad career move.

[flying scotsman]

went to the emb factory a few years ago and flew the flight test sim they had then. it was pretty nice but I didn't like the inverted v control column. avionics were always going to be a step ahead. ( the scrapped dornier jet projects were the best i've ever seen avionics wise. at the time they said they were expecting difficulties certifying some of the stuff as it was so furturistic.)

performance in reality will be alot less than the brochure figures if you factor in real winds, fuel loads and operating conditions but it will be a very very nice aircraft.

as for the 320 or the 73ng a let down after flying it?? probably nicer than the 73 (which is a tractor) but the airbus still gets my vote out of the three.

strangely enough the control loading was similar to the 146 - so nice and solid. should be nice to hand fly and certainly quieter. the fly b chaps will love it. hope you all have a great time on it.

FS

[Maude Charlee]

Airliner World had a flight test review back in May 2005 if anybody was interested. Pretty complimentary article, but only if you believe the mag is totally impartial in these matters.

[Trislander]

How's that a bad career move if they have already proven that they're business model works?

Why don't you guys stop moaning and think positively about the chance to fly the new aircraft, if you love flying enough surely the type doesn't matter that much.

There may be teething problems or there might not but right now it's too early to tell so stop bringing down the already low morale we have in the company and let's try to boost it.

Please tell me (and no doubt you will) if I am missing something here.

[ATIS]

Wasn't so long ago at my exit interview that they dangled the boeing flavoured carrot under my nose. Saying as they were happy with the current trials going on boeings were a sure thing in the not so distance future.

Fortunately I wasn't hungry at the time so I didn't take a bite and left. I had heard too much BS at my time there.

[Flightrider]

MOR / notac, I understand your anger but do recognise that things do change over time.

There could be any number of reasons why the 737 trial was right at the time but perhaps isn't the right method for the long-term future. It could be that the markets (particularly at BHX) into which Flybe entered are too competitive and yields are too low to make any money. It could be that any new potential owner of Flybe doesn't like the idea of playing the easyJets and Ryanairs at their own game with 737-size aircraft, and instead wants the company to focus on regional routes with regional aircraft.

Just because things have changed from then to now doesn't necessarily mean that someone was lying in the first place! At the end of the day, the company's primary objective is not to provide its pilots with a nice type rating. I presume its priorities are much like any other airline - operate safely and make a profit. If you can get a 737 or A320 type rating into the bargain, then good for you. If not, venting your spleen on here isn't going to change that either.

[fmgc]

Wouldn't it make more sense for them to go for the Canadair RJ's seeing as they have a load of type rated guys from when they used to operate them?

[CaptAirProx]

FlightRider and Trislander, at bloody last someone with some sense! I totally agree. In the famous words of the late George Dunn - "This ain't a flying club"

Do these people really think that any other airline is going to tell us bitching and moaning synics called pilots their every projected move before its happened. Get real guys.

[girt big un]

Notac

Why do you think that any airline executive considers you the pilot, soley in making his or her business decision. If you want to fly another type or expect your airline to get you a rating on the type of your choice then you can get out and find another job you should think again. If you are a young man you could be partially excused but if you have 4 bars on your shirt you are very sad.

What is it about you guys, you work for a good company, you get paid on time so why dont you just fly and shut up about your needs for YOUR future.

OR alternatly find someone to back you and start your own airline so that you can practice your well refined ideas thought up during the time you guys sit on the flight deck doing bu---er all and you will quickly find out it aint easy.

[Smokie]

Probably find that it is classified as a different Type Rating.
Stand to be corrected though.

Anyone with more Info?

[MOR]

Trislander

How's that a bad career move if they have already proven that they're business model works?

It has nothing to do with business models, it has to do with your marketability as a pilot, should you want to move on at some point. If, for example, you base closes and you choose to move on rather than change your place of residence, you are going to find how many openings for an EMB-rated pilot? Virtually none. So now you will probably have to go and buy a 737/A320 type rating to become employable. That's why I used the word "career".

Flightrider

There could be any number of reasons why the 737 trial was right at the time but perhaps isn't the right method for the long-term future.

But there aren't. All the research that showed a 150-seat aircraft as the best choice, is still valid. There are many reasons why the Embraer is a bad choice, and only one reason that it is a good choice - the price.

By the way, I'm not angry at all. I've always liked flybe as a company, despite some severe provocation over the years, and I have a lot of respect for JF. But I'm not blind, and I do have some well-placed "sources". It is absolutely obvious that flybe wanted the bigger aircraft, but simply cannot pay for them at the moment. The Embraer is like the Q400, a new aircraft that the manufacturer is desperate to establish a market for. Deals will be done with early customers, and that is why these aircraft are coming our way.

I'm sure it will be well equipped and nice to fly, but it will never be a good career move for those that actually have ambition beyond flybe.

girt big un

What is it about you guys, you work for a good company, you get paid on time so why dont you just fly and shut up about your needs for YOUR future.

Spoken like a true company man... :rolleyes:

The reason that some consider their needs and their future, is because they know that the company won't (and can't). Much as I like some aspects of flybe, they have a terrible record of displacing people at short notice, closing bases at the drop of a hat, and generally screwing people around. You have to look after yourself.

The bottom line is that I do have needs, and I do care about my future, and I have to act to protect that. If you want to end your career poling a Q400, then good for you. Most of us want a little more from our careers, and it is becoming increasingly clear that the company will never be able to satisfy that need. The carrot of a 737 rating was a potential career progression path, and the semi-carrot that was the "narrow body jet" payscale was another - the implication being that a wide-body jet was coming.

Having heard JF say many, many times that the company needed a 150-seat jet to move the business on, I am convinced that the Embraer was not the first choice - but the only choice left to them. The market has not changed in a way that would make the Embraer a good choice - if anything, it has moved the other way. The other LoCos recognise that the 150 seat aircraft is the smallest practical proposition for that business model - it has nothing to do with fuel burn either. We will have to carry several extra crews for the same pax numbers, for example. There are other costs - more landing fees per pax, more engineering per pax, and so on.

[er82]

>>you guys sit on the flight deck doing bu---er all<<

what a pathetic comment.....

There are a number of pretty obvious reasons why they didn't go for Boeing or Airbus.
1) they'd have to put down a deposit, and they haven't got any cash
2) with a non-common a/c, they can continue to pay crappy wages because there are no other operators to compare with.

To all you guys who are staying - watch out for the bond they'll be throwing at you - it'll probably go up to about £15000.

[excrab]

Er 82

Amazing isn't it - three years ago you would probably have gone anywhere and flown anything for a first job, and a dash 300 at British European based on your own rock must have seemed like manna from heaven.

15k bond - so what. If you don't leave you don't pay, so the only ones who it effects are the ones who want flybe to pay for a type rating so they can sod off and leave the company in the lurch (and their ex colleagues who will sufferfrom even more roster turbulence whilst replacement crews are hired). Hence the bond in the first place.

That said, best of luck with your new employer - presumably no bond, no roster changes, nothing but really green grass.

(And from my side at least a shame we never got to fly together)

[MarkD]

fmgc - thought that myself until I saw max pax of an 195 and remembered there ain't no CRJ that holds that many, and won't be unless BBD gets its act together on the C110/130.

[er82]

Yeah, totally true, when I started it was the perfect job. But, like pretty much everyone else who has already gone, it was the disruption and night-stopping, and not too good pay that's made me leave. Why stay for a command on the Dash when I can get RHS earning pretty much the same? And it'll be on a jet. Not much competition really between the two - although quite obviously that's a personal choice.

To be honest, I didn't expect to be leaving FlyBE within 3 yrs, so wasn't at all expecting them to pay for my type-rating and then sod off. I'll be £300 a month worse of till it's all paid off. My problem, no-one elses. But to be fair, it's a bit harsh saying I'm leaving the company and ex-colleagues in the lurch. The way it's worked out, I've given 4 months notice. Plenty of time to hire someone new. The reason why there are lack of crews at the moment is because of FlyBE's lack of foresight. Was it not only last November we were all being offered part-time, because according to him that knows all, we were overcrewed?!?!
To go from being in that situation to the one we are in know - had it happened in any other company, there would have been some sacking going on!!

With these extra 40 odd Dash's coming our way, it turns out we need to be training 10 pilots a month. No doubt these will all be newbies with 250hrs (I'm not knocking it, because I once was one), and the company will very soon have an experience level that is so low some would start to question it.
As it happens, it's inlikely this 10-a-month will ever be met, and more flights will be cancelled because of lack of crew, much like they are being this weekend.

There are a few guys in this company I've not flown with, but unfortunately haven't had the chance. I'm just afraid I don't know who you are, but you're probably one of them......

Oh, and just for chuckles.... the new hangar in EXT...... the 195 won't fit in it!

[jarjam]

er82,
You've only been in the company a month longer than me so that still puts you in the newbie catagory in my opinion anyway.
Were all newbies until we have a green book of our own.
Why Why Why do people continue to slag of flybe and the pay, as excrab said, the thought of flying a D-8-300 a couple of years ago would of had you wetting your pants. We all new what the deal was when we joined and I for one still love my job, I've just bought a house next to the sea have money in the bank and have a command in the pipe-line soon.
Some people dont know how lucky they are, think of the guys working for companys like Emerald flying HS748's round all night for £14000. they are the hard up ones not us. Keep it in perspective.:cool: :D

[er82]

I guess i'm an easy target on here, because everyone knows who I am. Think of the 90 odd that have left. Were they all wrong to go? Were all their personal opinions and choices wrong?
I guess it's what you want from flying that will make up your mind whether you stay or go. You might be happy with a command on the Dash, and a house by the sea. I'd like to get on a jet, and earn some decent money.
It comes to something when a company won't even offer a decent disruption pay - says great things about how they think they'll be managing such disruption in the future!

As for going on about me wetting my pants when I got offered this job however long ago it was. Well, everyone has to start somewhere, and getting your foot on the ladder is the biggest hurdle. Whether you stay on that ladder or transfer to one which will take you much higher - personal choice. And yes, I was very grateful and always will be to FlyBe for giving me that chance, but it certainly doesn't mean I'm indebted to them forever.
I might have a groan on here, or flyingbe, but I've never been late for work, have accepted all kinds of crap roster changes, and
have spent many many nights away from home. I think I've done my service.

Good Luck to you getting your command. Hope FlyBE treats you well.

:hmm:

[devon_guy]

Any idea what the new routes from EXT will be??

[tilewood]

Has anyone in the FlyBe rumour loop heard anything about
possible new routes out of Southend for 2006?

Belfast, EDI and GLA in addition to the existing JER have
been mentioned, but with the Q400.

[satis 5]

looking at the specs available on various web sites and comparing it to embraers site,

it would appear that with the 195's 118 capacity,
it is roughly 25 seats under the boeing and airbus models,
but 9-11t less basic weight.
not sure of the fuel figures, but theres got to be good economy there.

[CaptAirProx]

er82, some sound comments made. But remember this, when you do find the job thats perfect for you, please tell us all. I can predict that in your search far and wide you will come to the conclusion that more often than not, you will never catch your dream in its entirety. Having worked for 5 airlines, I can see they all have their pros and cons, some you like more than others. It is just funny watching all the newbies gayly thinking that they have found their dream by moving on. Yes they maybe better off financially etc etc. But will quite often come to the conclusion that although hey are happy with their lot, good old Flybe was a bloody good outfit with some great pros as well as some not so great cons.

Its all swings and roundabouts. Good luck to those that have left, are leaving and propose to leave. Now leave the stayers to make it an airline of our choice!

[spagiola]

I heard that AV was no more, but if it has re-joined the fleet once before I guess it could happen again! The haunted one, or so thay say...

I'm curious. What makes G-JEAV haunted?

[jarjam]

Your right er82, maybe some people are happy to work for flybe for ever, i'm not sure if i'm one of those people yet but i have til my bond is paid off to make up my mind.
I do feel that a lot of people leave because they feel so hard done by and also because they hear stories from friends about how they get paid millions each year and only have to work 6 days a month. Something I thought about rescently was that if i dont get to fly a 757/767/A321/A330 til i'm 30 that still gives me 25 years to be bored half to tears flying 4.5 hour sectors down to Larnaca in the middle of the night, I have to say the thought was slightly depressing.
I think that the kind of flying we do at flybe is probably the most fun you are ever going to have in an airliner for example at Monarch when the A/P goes in at 400' which is company SOP I was recently informed by one of their captains.
I dont begrudge any one who wants to progress their career but if the salary is the driving force behind your ambitions maybe a career in IT or property developing would have been more suitable. In airlines like flybe people will come and go a lot of the problems are self perpetuating (Roster Turbulence) it would be nice to see somebody posting an appreciative comment for flybe helping them get that shiney Jet job.:ok: :cool:

[er82]

Ok. Thanks very much FlyBE. You gave me a job when no-one else was recruiting; have allowed me to do lots of hand-flying on a pretty good a/c; have allowed me to build up my hours (although at a relatively slow pace compared to fellow colleagues in the UK) - which has allowed me to get my nice new jet job; and most of all have allowed me to work with a great bunch of people over the past two years.

There are many I will miss, the odd one or two I hope never to see again, but it's pretty much been great. I'm just ready to move on.

CaptAirProx - the grass is always greener. I may never be happy - I'm a hard woman to please! (Although not in some areas!)

jarjam - I'm making the move now because I don't intend on working until retirement age!

[excrab]

Er82

Sorry, never intended to start an Er bashing session. The comment about bonds wasn't aimed at you and your dash 8 bond, but at anyone who says they would undertake an embraer (or anything else) course but not want to be bonded - the only reason for that is if you intend to leave in less than three years. I don't know how much the embraer bond will be, but based on the cost of sim slots, hotels, air fares, and of course the salaries of the trainers and the trainees I think the dash bond is probably a reasonable reflection of the cost to the company, so probably the embraer bond will be similarily fair (or at least as fair as any bond can be)

[er82]

Don't worry - I'm used to it! Something I should probably expect because I'm not afraid to stick my neck out and make comments on here! And even though everyone knows who I am now, I still continue!

I can see your point, but there aren't really any other operators who might tempt a FlyBE pilot away with an Embraer TR. Would you expect to see all the trainers bonded as well? Might be a bit of cheek if they've been with the company 10 yrs. Yes, if that's the case they probably wouldn't leave anyway so having a bond wouldn't be a problem. In that case though, wouldn't it be better to have a 'hand-shake' bond?

I'm still at a loss as to working out who you lot are. Seems I'm known far and wide now - especially after someone decided to name me over the airwaves last week!

[easyswimmer]

I left fybe in October. It was the best thing on offer to start my career and im very grateful to dear old George for getting me started. It was good while it lasted but I was gaining nothing by staying as I trundeled toward 1000 hours in the rhs of the mighty dash. My opinion of flybe after leaving it behind many months ago is this... if anyone is interested.

I believe the training to be poor to very poor. It was improving after the departure of our antipodian friend, but compared to the airline im with now the training and discipline on the line at flybe was poor. Local ways of doing things, poor roster stability, poor pay, nightstops, poor crew food, low hours, non communication from management, poor balpa reprisentation...

I found that Flybe is full of unprofessional characters, both on the ground and in the air. I hear MRS JS got fed up with some 200hr guys asking when there course start date was that she hoofed them out the pool. How does she have the right to do that? She wasted money interviewwing them in the first place. Whats skills and training can she bring to pilot recruitment? What exactly does DD do? I arrived at an opc, to be told by my sim trainer that it wasnt a big deal - only a company check. the session started 20 mins late and finished 15 mins early. We had a 25 min brief, the examiner was mainly talking about PC's to the skipper i was with. i revalidated my CATII into LGW without plates, cos we didnt have any. I STILL, yes STILL get sent Notacs. im hoping for a xmas bonus and a card. (got the card last year anyway)

I walked onto the flight deck of a Q400 in SOU. The flightdeck had a combined age of 42 years between them, and under 3000 hours TT between them - responsible for 82 beating hearts! They were opperating SOU-GCI, 120 sectors a month...the same route. That same skipper on another occasion told me to put 1200kgs down for a fuel check at ortac. It's always the same he said. Except for the day you have a fuel leak - but anyway. I flew with a skipper to bergamo. our combined total time was 3,500 hours - over the alps in winter, at night at FL250. Neither of us had flown in that sort of terrain before and the company brief was pretty inadequate. The thinking at flybe is I have 2000 hours where is my command?

I am so pleased I left when I did, becasue had I stayed longer I am sure I would have found the transition to a "proper" airline much much harder, perhaps impossible. I hope luck stays with the airline because their consideration toward safety and training really troubles me.

Good luck er82, the grass is greener.

Ps just a few thoughts, cant be bothered to back them up or respond to allegations of anti-flybeism and i know it is reasonably inarticulate. Take it or leave it. G'night.

[Smokie]

Right, lets get this perfectly straight.

Bonding for an intial Type rating is not illegal. You can be bonded for whatevever Cost is involved and X amount of years.
This is perfectly reasonable, as the company have to recupe some of their initial training costs.

To be continuously Re Bonded, as some I have known to have been in the past, SD-360, Dash 8-300 and then the BAE 146, because a company decides that this is the way they are going to operate is ILLEGAL. END OF STORY!

You cannot keep bonding people just because it suits the company to do so.

In employment law this is prejudicial to normal advancement and carrer progression. Which is Illegal. Everyone must have been given equally the same and or similar opportunities. So those for example who have been in the company for say less than 10 years and are bonded on subsequent types, should be afforded the same courtesy, as those who have say been in the company for 10 years or more and not been bonded.

If you found that you have been unfaily treated and then take this to court, the court would definititely stand in your favour.

Do Not Ever Sign a Second or, god forbid, a Third or Fourth bond.:ok:

[Nil further]

easyswimmer

thank god , another voice of sanity .i have been making those points for a while now and was shot down in flames .

An accident waiting to happen is how i would describe it , makes me shudder to think of some of the monkeys there flying over the alps at FL250 in a Q400 , whats the single engine driftdown height for that a/c ?

You will note your "antipodean friend" (if its the same guy) got his dues when he tried to make it in the real world . He ws told in no un-certain terms that he was un-suitable for command and would not be considered for several years , he spat the dummy and is now in South Africa i believe .


Regards

NF

p.s. never mind a total experience of 3000 hours , i once flew in a flybe dash that had two RTO in row . The combined experience of the crew . . . . . . 2000 h.

p.p.s i am not implying that the experience level of the crew was anything to do with the RTO's , i believe there was some issue with props on the dash at that time .


p.p.p.s flybe are not alone , rumour heard the other day that someone is getting a Saab command at loganair with less than 2000 total.

[MOR]

I think he is probably talking about the Kiwi chap who was head of training or something, on the turboprop fleet.

He was real old-school, felt that the best way to check a guy was to tell him before the check that he was useless and would probably fail, and then load him up during the check until the poor guy spat the dummy and became a quivering mass of jelly.

I did a check with him once and he was fine. The guy after me got chopped, for no reason that I could see - and this was on the aircraft so I saw the whole thing (we used to check two at once).

Nobody misses him.

[CaptAirProx]

Nil,

If you were not implying that the experience of the crew (2000h) was not part of the RTO then why mention it??

Anyhow, to answer your question about driftdown, generally and for CAA calcs, the worst case Driftdown I think, at ISA +15c conditions is 18,000ft. This has never been its issue since I have flown the Zurich- Odina run. It is more to do with the lack of drop down oxygen and the requirement to be at 14,000ft within 4 minutes. This rather puts a limit on which parts of the alps you can traverse.

[mysecretsmile]

tilewood - reference your enquiry about Flybe starting services
from Southend.

I had heard from a senior manager at Flybe that there are plans in the pipeline and watch this space for Southend. No specific start dates were quoted except an announcement would come before Christmas.

[excrab]

Further to the reply from Capt. Airprox, the routing across the alps was looked at very carefully by the then fleet manager. As mentioned, the main problem was the requirement to reach 14000ft within 4 minutes of a decompression occuring, which thus restricts which areas of the Alps the aircraft could operate over.

Easy swimmer should be aware of this, as the information was published in a notac (14/03 to jog his memory) which was available to all crews and later included in part C of the ops manual. This included all the data relating to limiting high ground enroute between RIPUS and ODINA south bound and ABESI and ELMUR north bound. Prior to the route starting on the Q400 this information was submitted to both the UK CAA and also to the Italian Aviation Authorities, both of whom wanted to see that the route could operate safely, and both of these bodies approved the operation.

On these grounds, to suggest that the operation of the Q400 over the Alps by Flybe was unsafe is grossly misleading. If Easyswimmer wasn't happy with the situation when he operated it he should have discussed it with the Captain. If the Captain wasn't happy with it then he should have queried it when his roster came out, and should also never have signed the area competency certificate on his previous line check as that is a statement that he, not the company, considers himself competent to operate to all airfields (and along the routes to them) other than cat C airfields which are seperately trained for.

Regarding crew qualification, whilst the question at 2000 hours may well be "where is my command", just asking doesn't mean that you will get it. There are many with more hours than that who have failed command assessments, because it has to be said that to have the required skills and the correct mental attitude for command at that stage is quite rare. The company requirements for command are 2500 hours, which may be reduced to 2000 at the discretion of the Flight ops director, but the number of dispensations that may be granted is limited, I have been told, by the airlines insurers to 7% of the captains ie if you have 100 dash captains 7 of them may have less than 2500 hours. As a newly promoted captain cannot fly with an F/O with less than 100 hours on type the minimum number of hours on the flight deck should never be able to be less than about 2300 so it is hard to see how the 2000 total nil mentioned slipped through the net.

This is generally fairly standard for UK turboprop operators, as nil mentioned Loganair seem to be using slightly lower hours for command. To put this into perspective,in March one UK 737 operator (not flybe or easjet) was promoting Captains with 2700hrs TT. With generally longer sectors this could well give less exposure to the critical phases of the flight (take-off,approach and landing) than would be experienced by a 2000 hour pilot on a regional turboprop.

Finally regarding easyswimmers attack on the training department (I believe capt airprox is a fellow member), I would assume from his or her post that they joined the company in about 2001/02, at which time the dash training left something to be desired. Since then we have doubled the number of TREs and TRIs, trained many more line trainers, added extra sim slots to the initial course and as mentioned the most important one, got rid of JT. Of Easyswimmers list of why training was "poor to very poor" the only training related issue was the local ways of doing things, and that issue is currently being addressed.

[tilewood]

mysecretsmile


Thanks for the info. There are all sorts of rumours
this end.

I shall watch this space.

Regards

[easyswimmer]

Excrab - I don't like your tone old chap. I put forward a non-confrontational post and you reply sarcastiacally and aggressively. Are you like that with your training hat on?

The feeling without exception of those I flew with was that going over the alps at FL250 in a dash in winter was far from ideal. It concerns me that you have to actually say that the route was considered carefully. Of course it was legal and approved, but there was clearly a communication problem, because crews felt uncomfortable. That is not their fault; they are going on the briefing and info provided by the airline to the crews. Do bear in mind the crews were often doing the same cross channel sectors, then occasionally thrown into a longer flight in foreign airspace over the Alps. I don't recall doing any driftdowns in the sim by way of aiding my ability and competence. I recall Notac 14/03 with fond memories. We had it's contents deciphered on a post-it note and stuck it on the glare shield - along with the noise abatement departure out of bergamo which was as equally complex.

I agree, that to say that flying that route was unsafe would be misleading - but I didn't say it. I said the brief was inadequate which left crew with an uneasy feeling. (no pun intended). You typify the training ethos at flybe - listen to yourself!.. Should have read the notac, shouldn't have signed the line check form, should have told the skipper, shouldn't have accepted the duty on roster issue....blah blah... It doesn't seem to worry you that there was a problem - just a tirade of reasons why we should have no reason to be concerned.

With reference to your command selection procedure - Perhaps you could explain why at least one skipper I can remember was sent on a Pre-command course after I had flown with him in the LHS for at least 4 months? He happened to be a top operator, but still...

I am pleased to hear that the training has improved. In September 2003 it was still poor to very poor. - I didn't attack your training department - I commented on my experience of it. If I wanted to attack it, I would have said it was shi*te, but it wasn't. In 2001 as you say, there were a few good guys doing the best they could to get the lads through and there were some other pedantic bully boy trainers who took no consideration as to the new guys background, age or ability and gave them a really rough time - and what did it achieve?

My understanding was JT retired, but if you got rid of him - so be it. I quite liked the bloke myself, just not his way of doing things which was a, little dated. Something about competent but lacking initiative was his crm course in a nutshell

The other thing I forgot to mention on my original post was that in the sim you couldn't bug minima. I guess that has changed now you have speed tapes but that always gave me a chuckle. "Sorry old chap - you bust your minima"
"bugg*er me so I did... the post-it note must have fallen off again. Can I have another go?"
"Absolutely it's only an OPC".

[MarkD]

well as for the q, flybe just went in for more of 'em:

http://www.bombardier.com/en/3_0/pressrelease.jsp?group=3_0&lan=en&action=view&mode=list&id=2865&sCateg=3_0

[excrab]

Easy swimmer,

I'm afraid I'm not going to apologise for my tone, old chap. If the comment that the training "is poor to very poor" is not an attack on our training department I don't know what would be. Did you fly with all the line trainers? probably not. Were you tested by all the TREs and trained by all the TRIs, again probably not. So the most you can possibly say is that your own training and the recurrent training/testing was poor, or even very poor. It doesn't neccessarily mean that all Flybe training is the same.

I will apologise for appearing to suggest that you said the operation across the Alps was unsafe. That was nil furthers comment and I should not have included your name in the same paragraph.

Regarding the brief for ops over the Alps, I have it in front of me now and it seems reasonably understandable to me - the noise abatement bit "a type three climb(160kts) should be flown via the ORI SID (ABESI transition) until it is clear that FL210 or above can be achieved by ABESI etc etc" seems perfectly understandable. The SID was on the AERAD chart and was a turn onto a southerley track away from the hills until passing FL120 if memory serves me rightly - this was nothing to do with FLybe, it was a published procedure. It would have been improved if the diagram had been better, so as a result everyone who I personally line trained on the route was given a full brief with the route structure plotted on an ONC chart so they would know exactly what was involved.

The advice not to sign the area competency certificate for a skipper is actually very good advice if crewing refuse to cooperate. This happened to one guy whose command line trainingI was doing who was rostered for this route as his first ever command sector after training. I advised him not to sign the certificate, gave him a "very good" grading on the training report and ended up having a massive row about it with GD the next day, but at least he got some more experience on thhe aircraft before crossing the Alps - and he wasn't at minimum hours and had crossed the alps many times as a jet F/O.

The answer to your question about the pre command course is that I don't know. I was talking about the command assessment procedure as it is now - not as it was when the course was just being introduced and there was a backlog. The command course, as far as I know is primarily administration, how the company works etc and not to be confused with anything about flying the aircraft. as far as I know it is now done prior to operating in the LHS.

Regarding the busting of minimas on an OPC - where is the problem with a repeat of it under the circumstances you described? A candidate on an OPC is alllowed a repeat of any item at the examiners discretion (and if everything else on the approach had been satisfactorily and he knew why he had done it wrong then that would be classed as such). If he gets it wrong again and / or need to be rebriefed that is then a second attempt and he is allowed that as well, only if he gets that wrong does it become a fail. Those aren't flybes rules, they are straight from the CAA standards document 24, except that flybe apply them to OPCs as well as LPC/LST. However there is a serious issue with the OPC you experienced in your initial post as the sim time should be utilised for training and if there is spare time and everything is finished then It should be used for individual crew members to practise anything they were intersted in (not aerobatics or flying under tower bridge) perhaps drift downs...., and the briefing should be far longer than 25minutes. Nowdays we get 2 hours for all sim training and testing.

However, an OPC is just an OPC, with no CAA involvement and any brief that can help to put the candidate at ease will help, Which I assume the "don't worry this is only an OPC" statement was supposed to achieve. Would you prefer the examiner to say "right you 'orrible little man 1 knot to slow and your chopped..."

Finally, I liked JT as well, he was asked to leave because he wasn't doing his job properly - hence since you left we have a new training manger and deputy, plus all the extra staff and changes I mentioned in my first post. Yes, training when I joined the company was dire, a chopping mentality like something from the Royal New Zealand Airforce in the fifties, upon which it was based. That is what you, easyswimmer, and possibly nil further if he flew the F27 experienced on joining. However, since JT left a lot of people who actually care about training have worked very hard to try to change that, and seeing comments such as yours are not much reward for those efforts. So please, by all means tell people what it was like, but don't describe it so in the present tense as in your original post.

[easyswimmer]

Yes of course i didn't fly with all the trainers, and I said there were some good guys - but overall my opinion is that flybe's training is poor to very poor, becasue of the resources given to it. Surely the best attitude toward training is that the airline strives to give the best, highest level of training reasonably possible - that everything was done to ensure a safe opperation. If it went wrong on the day, then nothing more could reasonably been done to avoid the outcome. Can you say you believe that is the case throughout the training department at flybe?

You may give extra helpful instruction -that is to be appluaded, but it ain't the standard for the airline. Not all the line trainers are giving the same level of training.

Not being able to bug mimima is a shambles. It is unprofessional to accept that a pilot may have another go if they cock it up becasue they didn't have the altitude in the scan that we are all trained to use. Give the bloke/glokess a fair crack and give them everything to help them not bust minima - cos for real you may only do it once. It may be legal to have another go, but it harldy makes you feel very good having to repeat things.

Are there any other flybe troops new or old with me on this?

I can see we won't agree on this, and you are naturally going to defend your position as a trainer. Sadly my opinion has been reafirmed by your comments that the airline is legal, but not professional.

[MOR]

There is no doubt that when the Dash was first introduced, there were two complete clowns in the training department, whose adversarial approach to training was well known. It was no surprise when they were both removed from those training positions (by promotion to the 146 in one case, not sure about the other). At the time, it was the most unprofessional training environment I have ever seen. maybe it is better now, it couldn't have been much worse. A few of us were offered Q400 positions, I for one turned it down as I refused to fly with those turkeys.

I well remember the discussions in the crew room about the Alps drift-down problem. To me, the real issue was that nobody had even considered it until a few of the crews started to wonder out loud "what would happen if..." Why the Fleet Management and Performance department never thought about it is beyond me.

And BTW, doing drift-downs in the sim has to be the biggest waste of time there is. At least flying under Tower Bridge would have some training value, practising a driftdown has none.

Mind you, the jet fleet wasn't much better. After our first season into Innsbruck, it became obvious that we needed a re-write of the brief as it didn't contain nearly enough information, and had some serious errors. Sure enough, next season rolls around and where is the brief? Not ready, of course. Just as well the weather was nice for the first few weeks. That one was down to the FM... thank god he's gone now.

As far as training is concerned, it was always pretty good on the jet fleet. Most of the trainers are top-notch people, there is no artificial stress, and the job gets done with the minimum of fuss. The Chief trainer on the jet is superb.

On the turboprop it has always been different. With JT in charge, and the midget from Leeds later, chopping was the order of the day. All trainees were subject to completely unnecessary stress. We used to get them for line training, so wound up they could barely fly. It took the first two or three line flights to calm them down enough to teach them anything.

And line training... when I became a line trainer on the F27, my "training" consisted of a phone call - "hey, ya wanna be a line trainer...??" followed by a two-hour session in the crew room with a TRE. That was it! You're a line trainer now son, off you go...

Still a great company though!

[er82]

Well I'm bound to get a few kick-backs from this, because I've already done this one to death on the staff website, but I'll throw in my opinion for chuckles.....

Training when I joined was a bit messy. Took forever to get anything done. We were shipped to Toronto for the initial TR, where we didn't get any of the SOP's, flows etc - which were hammered to death by JT back in EXT. All passed the initial though, but from then, we had various single days here and there covering performance etc in EXT. Base training was about 3 weeks later, and line training a couple of days after that. All a bit spaced out, but not too bad.

Since then, I've flown with various line trainers and have found them all to be fair and consistent. There are still various niggles that they don't all agree on - mainly because no set procedure has been set in stone, so there are different interpretations as to how something should be done. Can be confusing at times.

As far as the 1200 fuek check at Ortac - happened as recently as the end of last year to me I'm afraid!

The most recent thing that's really 'annoyed' me, is a bit of a shambles about training for the speed tapes. First of all you have to do ground training (covered on the ART course which most people sleep through with terrific hangovers impeding any chance of taking anything in!!), and training in the sim. Then you don't have to do sim training, but you have to cover VFR and IFR manouevres on the a/c. Then you can cover the ground school bit in a brief with a Line Trainer, and carry out the in-flight training on revenue flights.
Some trainers insist on training being done in the sim, others don't. The groundschool is bare minimum, and learning on-the-go with pax down the back is, as far as I'm concerned, a joke....

Picture this.... groundschool covered 10months ago.... no sim training..... pre-flight brief of about 10mins (which to be fair covered most of it)..........out to a/c and have approx 5 mins to have a look and play with the new buttons..... RVR 175m.... classed as sufficient training so off we went.

Funny that the day before, another F/O with the same lack of training had got off the a/c when he found it had speed tapes, and they got someone else in to cover.
The day I'm there.... no-one on standby anywhere, so it's deemed legal. Had I chosen not to fly because I didn't think I'd had sufficient training, it was, and I quote from the training manager, "a problem that would be dealt with"..... i.e. come for tea and biscuits because you refused to fly....

I'll sit back now and wait for the insults!:uhoh:

[jarjam]

I agree about the speed tapes mess up, we all new the speed tapes were coming so presumeably the folks down in exeter must have aswell. At our base we had two A/C with new symbology, they arrived on the day before a load of new pilots started line training, I believe that some captains refused to train on the affected A/C but I also heard that some captains continued line training and incorporated the difference training into the first day of line training which sounds less than ideal.
I however have played with the new symbology twice in the sim and this was included in my training report's to say I have been "TRAINED".
I noticed that my duties were being changed more than normal so I called ops to check and they had been altering my roster as they were unaware I could operate.
A bit of a com's breakdown between Admin and ops it seems.
:O :\

[excrab]

Er82,

You may get insults, but certainly not from me.

The speed tapes introduction has been handled somewhat shambolically and caused some problems. These have quickly been addressed and as all initial courses now have 5 of the 8 days using the tapes, plus all OPCs and LPCs to be done using them those problems should shortly be solved, unfortunately not before you leave. This also resolves the issue of not being able to bug minimas in the simulator.

As for the veiled threat of tea and biscuits that could just be an interpretation (I don't say it is as I wasn't there), but having spent a not inconsiderable time working with the dash 8 training manager in the past I would be very surprised as that isn't the way he normally operates. Certainly, other F/Os who aren't qualified on the tapes have been rostered specifically with line trainers since your incident, possibly as a result of it. And before anyone else says it training shouldn't have been given on the a/c, however the shortage of sim availability in ARN at the moment meant this was the only practical solution.

Obviously this in the long run is not acceptable, and as easyswimmer says the airline should strive to give the best possible training it can. Again the lack of resources issue is slowly being solved and it is fairly common knowledge within the company that the directors have approved the procurement of our own Q400 simulators in the UK which should solve many of these issues. I hesitate to draw comparison, but no doubt in it's growth from two 737s on Air Foyles AOC to what it is today there must have been times when easyjets training department suffered hickups, and I fail to comprehend why easyswimmer is unable to recognise the fact that with Flybe currently undergoing massive change and expansion there may also be ongoing changes in the training department since he left, thus making some of his information a little out of date.

[er82]

Heard this the other day.....

With the delivery of the new Dash's taking place over the next however many years, if NO-ONE leaves the company, we need to take on 10 pilots per month.....

I'm afraid to say that the training manager did say that to me. I'd found out the day before that I was on an a/c with speed tapes. Phoned crewing to tell them I wouldn't be happy because I hadn't had sufficient training. They seemed happy enough and said they'd get it covered. 5 mins later I get a call from the TM who seemed pi**ed off with me and blarbed a load of 'it's legal' at me.

OPS were actually phoning all crew a while back to try and update their records as to who had done the training and who hadn't. So much for our 'amazing' AIMS system!!

[excrab]

Er82 - I stand corrected. My apologies for doubting you.

[easyswimmer]

Excrab, you are correct, I do not know what is going on in the training department now and at no point have I claimed to. I only have my experience of it up until October last year to call upon, and it is that experience to which I refer.

I will stop here cos It wasn't meant to be a slagging of the company. It was my experience of flybe when I was there, and how I view it now i have left Simple as that.

[Artificial Horizon]

Interesting topic, having just completed my training with my first post flybe airline, I thought that I would add my two pence worth.

When I joined flybe the training department was in a bit of a mess and it was very much a case of feeling stuck in an internal argument between disgruntled trainers and management. It improved over time but I felt was starting to slip a little again just before I left. The training at my new airline is far more organised and professional than at flybe but I don't think it is any better, some of the trainers at flybe were excellent, some weren't! The more that I progress in my airline career the more that I can see that every airline has it good points and bad points. Overall flybe was a good fun airline to work for and provided me with that very valuble start in the industry and for that I will always be thankful. Flybe did not however provide me with the career prospects and financial reward that my new airline can provide so the decision to leave was not hard.

[flybe.com]

With regard to the large number of pilots leaving flybe, the next move by MW is not to improve the general Terms & Conditions, instead he wants to increase the notice period to 6 months!!!

[er82]

And, apparently, after a 'trial' which consisted of us giving up 3 days leave to allow 6on 3off, it seems the CC aren't being given the chance to vote, and have been told they will now lose 8leave days (which are effectively bank holidays in lieu).......

Don't know how the voting will go for the flight deck - if they get the chance to vote.......

[easyswimmer]

I don't know too much about this, but between easy and the caa it has been scientifically proven that 6on3off is a fatiguing roster pattern. When we had the chance to vote 5/2/5/4 the feeling seemed to be that we couldn't go back to 6/3 becasue of the findings of the study.

Hard to see how the caa would allow flybe a 6/3 roster after that.

5/2/5/4 is just fantastic.

[orangetree]

6/3 was not scientifically proven to be fatiguing..it was the way Easy chose to deliver it that was (apparently). All the PR claptrap from the orange hut about 6/3 being doomed was very 'carefully' worded. Funnily enough the way Easy chose to deliver 5254 is even more fatiguing. 6/3 is a fine plan if rostered sensibly. I hope the flybe guys get it without much sacrifice but a couple of years down the line don't let a bunch of Union muppets railroad you down the 5254 road..it ain't funny.

[Smokie]

Instead of 5254, what about 5353 or even 4444?

[gator bait]

I hear that the guys hired on the 7on - 7off remote roster are getting as equally shafted as the rest of us. I have also heard that some of the over 60`s are on the verge of qutting Flybe already! Can this be true?:cool: