An annoying Assie ATCO practice.

[Blip]

This may apply to countries other than Australia as well...

Can someone please explain to me why in this country, ATC must issue a frequency change right at transition altitude (A100) during the climb and at transition level (F110) during descent?

I swear 90% of the time, just as I am about to call to my fellow pilot "Transition" and reach out to change the altimeter subscale, I get "Qantas four fifty three call Melbourne Centre now on one two niner decimal four five. G'day!"

It seems to me that it is by design of the airspace or the procedures that they pass on the frequency change when they do.


Would you please give us the frequency change at some other time? Just 500 ft later will do. Just so that we might set and cross-check the altimeters without interuption!

Setting the correct altimeter subscale is such a criticle thing to get right. I hardly need to explain what might happen if it is not set correctly.

I don't know of another profession where you have to be such a good manager of interuptions. From the moment you step onto the aeroplane to the moment you complete the shutdown checklist you are constantly being distracted from the task at hand. Of course that is the nature of our profession. The issue I raise here is just one example of that. On first look it might seem such a trivial thing, this issue I raise, after-all I have never not landed with the correct QNH set. However that proves nothing and is really not the point. The point is, it is such an important item to get done correctly, you don't EVER want to get it wrong! If an ATC procedure can be identified as being a consistant distraction from this task, I believe the issue needs to be addressed.

It would only take a minor change to the timing of frequency changes to make this issue disappear.

[DirtyPierre]

Blip,

You say this happens regularly. Is it only with Melbourne Centre, or is it also occurring when you talk to Brisbane Centre?

Also, do you really change the altimeter just above F110 on descent? I always thought you set QNH at top of descent, and 1013.2 leaving F110.

I must admit, this is the first time I've heard of such a complaint, and I have a brother and a cousin who fly for Qantas. They've never said anything about this, and believe me, they'd be the first to tell me if there's a problem!

Anyway, I'll keep your suggestion in mind and pass it on to all here in Brissie.

DP

[Blip]

Thanks DirtyPierre.

No. Brisbane do it too.

Regarding the altimetry procedures, I refer to the Jeppesen version of the AIP on page AU-501/502
The diagram says for the climb: "Passing 10,000 ft set 1013.2" For the descent it points to the top of the transition layer (usually F110) and says "Prior to Transition Layer, set local QNH or, if not available, Area QNH"

I think if we were to set QNH at top-of-descent, you would have aircraft on QNH and QNE mixing together in the same airpace. I'm sure that would not be a good thing.

I appreciate you passing this on to others in Brissie. Thankyou very much.:)

[Spodman]

BLAME DICK SMITH:}

NAS changed the base of C airspace, making the change between APP & ENR at that exact inconvient time.

DICK BASHING OVER:}

The way AIP is worded Blip & Filthy Peter could both be correct, though I'm relieved to hear at least one pilot does it the proper way, rather than how it is written:8

I think a better answer would be to move the level at which the transition occurs UP. Maybe even to 18,000FT:D

[Blip]

I would just like to add that during the climb, it's the Departures controller giving us the frequency tranfer instructions at 10,000 ft.

Thanks again.

[Avman]

Jeez Blip, with all due respect, I think you're being a wee bit picky here. Next we'll be having to say, "XYZ123, is this a good time to give you a frequency change?" :D

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

I have to say most of the guys in the Middle East seem to change to local QNH once they have been assigned an altitude, ie, descend 10,000 ft QNH 1009, and bang they switch over to 1009 even if passing through FL200 on descent. I know they do it cos when there is a big discrepancy between Dubai QNH and 1013, trying to verify their altitude on first contact from Dubai APP is nigh on impossible, as they were assigned FL190 so even though through A090 they are already on 1013.

I guess it is not exactly correct but the nature of the beast (last minute hold instructions/ vectors/speed reductions) as they approach the transition altitude, dictates they want everything squared away as early as they can. Maybe we need a proper flow system here rather than some asse pluck from a plonker in Dubai doing a crossword. Another story sorry.

[Scott Voigt]

Can't speak for Aus... But our transition alt. is at FL180 and we do the changing going UP around that area from low altitude to high due to not having to worry about issuing VFR traffic after that altitude. So if you have no IFR traffic to worry about that is where you switch them to high so that they can talk to them and hopefully get higher without having to stop the climb.

regards

Scott

[SM4 Pirate]

Blip, Maaaaateeee; we do it on purpose, this will piss him off.... Geez, fair suck of the sav. For controller amusement etc...

Our transfer points are all based on DME arcs from our termianl areas; an easy suggestion for you is get 1000 foot lower or higher and problem goes away....

At Sydney it's 45 DME, at ML and BN it's 36DME... See the problem....

[Uncommon Sense]

Blip:

An excellent point only because it is a pet of mine too.

I have had it raised by RPT pilots to me, and I am well aware of the issue. Transition checks on climb and descent - many on the other side of the microphone may not realise the checklist incorporates more than just the Qnh/Qne setting.

Put it down to training.

Frankly I don't think Dick Smith has got anything to do with this - however one issue that has already been raised is Airspace design, and one that hasn't is workload management for the ATC.

TAAATS proposes hand offs in most but not all transfers. And due to the APP/ARR boundary, normally around 40NM, it is quite often from a descent point of view around transition altitude - the auto handoff os normally based on 2 minute trajectory either vertical or lateral.

Outbound should not be such an issue depending on the cap of the Departures airspace. Brisbane is FL180, I think SY is FL260 (?), Gold Coast is FL120 to the south and 6000 to the north.

With the high performance of most RPT types these days the handoff is normally proposed on Departure based on vertical trajectory so there is time for the controller to handoff / wait for the acceptance, and then when ready to transfer quickly glance at the Mode C before talking - this is something I personally do as a matter of course and always have - but only because I have been made aware of the problem and have a flying background. It was never mentioned in any training that I can recall (then again a lot of it is distant memories!).

Sometimes if our workload is high (something you can NOT tell from the frequency activity neccessarily) we will get rid of you off frequency as soon as we can - it can be the lesser of two evils as you may end up getting a maintain at your inbound/outbound level if either the proposing/accepting controller gets behind. Remember, most of the time your inbound/outbound assigned levels are just procedural 'paper-stop' caps and we are not planning (and you are not expecting) and intermediate level off - with the price of go-juice these days nobody wants that!

As a matter of technique - and one I pass on to other Approach Controllers who will listen to me (very few) - is to not communicate with the aircraft unless neccessary between 9000 & 11000 feet both up and down. In probably 80% of cases this is achievable.

PM me if you want any more information on our procedures.