Purchase of an Aeroplane

[Captain Noodle]

Hello,
I am about to embark on the investigative process of buying my first aeroplane. It will be a Warrior or a 172 or similiar, 1975 ish.

Can anybody help me with the do's and don'ts of investigating the purchase.

Questions I have:

How can I get indicative running costs of the aircraft I plan to buy?

Is there a engineering check/buying survey people recommend?

What age should I be looking at? In my opening I mentioned 1975? But I am not sure, obviously the newer the better, but money is a consideration.

Airframe and Engine hours: What are average totals for the age of the plane I am considering?

That will do for now.
Thanks for any advice given.
Noodle

[Tarnished]

Think you'd be better off posting this on the Private Flying page

Fuel, oil, insurance, hangarage, landing fees, certification fees.

Thought of forming a syndicate/group?

T

[MikeKnight]

There is a chap on the Avweb site who writes a column. He seems to know quite a bit and might be worth checking out.
Here is the URL: "The Savvy Aviator" (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/186596-1.html)

[visibility3miles]

Trade-a-plane is a classic way to look for used planes. It's a U.S. publication, but you can use it to get an idea of what planes are available at what prices. (And they have planes from all over.)

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/index.shtml

It costs money to subscribe, but it is pretty cheap for an online subscription.

Also try this thread:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1379994&highlight=tradeaplane#post1379994

[Boss Raptor]

Get a professional engineer to survey both the aircraft/engine and its' technical (and modification) status...

I bought a 1979 build Warrior some 15 years ago and learned;

1. the factory corrosion treatment particularly internal is rubbish and patchy/non existant - look for corrosion and have the aircraft inhibited/treated properly

2. the wing bolts are almost invariably badly worn - 15 years ago £800 a set to replace

3. check the sealing on the fuel tanks

4. check the electrics and wiring looms

5. interior quality

6. check for installation, newness and warranties if any on the avionics - what I thought were decent (flashy) King Silver Crown kit turned out to be crap most of them failing within 2 years and probably not new when fitted anyway

this is basically a tin can with wings and frankly the build quality in my experience is not as good as many cars - at the end of the day you are looking at a 25-30 year old aircraft and there is inevitably deterioration so look for it

a new paint job and new interior can hide a multitude of faults - the smartest looking aircraft is not necessarily the best as technical quality and status is what counts

dont assume anyone selling an aircraft is anymore honest than a second car salesman and dont assume they necessarily know what they are talking about either

[Genghis the Engineer]

I'd suggest buying (at-least) a day of the time of a Licenced Engineer who is fully familiar with the type, ask them to do a very thorough inspection, and follow them around with a clipboard. Then, ask them for an estimate of what it would cost to fix anything they weren't 100% happy about, or is going to need doing soon.

Not a cheap way of doing it, but worth every penny.

G

[The Original Jetpipe]

Hi Captain Noodle.

Check your PM.

I have to agree with the above posts. Using a Licensed Engineer to do an independent inspection of the aircraft you choose is a good idea. Ensure that it is an "independent" inspection.

Best regards
The Original Jetpipe :ok:

[Chimbu chuckles]

Noodle there are two ways of buying a used aircraft.

1/. Find an aircraft that the owner has spent lots of money upgrading.

2/. Find an aircraft with 'original' interior, paint, windows and a nearly time ex engine or one that is on condition and passed it's recommended TBO (perfectly legal under Schedule 5 mainenance in Australia) and then make it just the way you want it.

Realise that aeroplanes are like boats...easiest thing in the world to buy, hardest thing in the world to sell....in fact a lot harder to sell than boats.

Realise that the asking price is often what the owner wishes it was worth not what it is worth.

Realise any money you spend, or the current owner has spent, is not fully recoverable when you come to sell said aircraft...a new zero time engine probably is, as is a new zero time prop, but radios, interiors, windows and paint jobs etc add maybe 60% of their cost to the value of the aircraft.

Realise that when you buy a 30 yr old aircraft, at a small fraction of the new aircraft cost, you will still be paying new aircraft prices for many/most spare parts. At least you won't be paying for manufacturers liability insurance which is a HUGE % of the cost of a new aircaft.

Realise that if you go route 2/. above the labour costs, unless you can do it yourself, will mean that the final cost is in excess of going route 1/. above....but you do end up with an aeroplane you know intimately. The 60% rule of thumb kicks in when you come to calculating what the aircraft's new worth might be.

Realise that any quote you get from an engineer for money/time spent in rectification will need to be trippled to have any chance of being realistic...I am NOT joking!!! A good rule of thumb would be x 2.5 for the cost and x 3 for the time the aircraft is unavailable to use.

Proper hangarage is money well spent. It will vary slightly from place to place but I pay $200/mth for my aircraft at Redcliffe.

Insurance is easy to get quotes for...do NOT underinsure your aircraft. In fact if you feel that the aircraft is probably a little over insured you've probably got it about right. If you're a member of an Aeroclub that ownes aircraft and has a body of members who own aircraft you will probably find they have a group policy which is REALLY worth looking into. If not find a club that does and join. When you are trying to calculate how much to insure the aircraft for think about it crashing somewhere remote and not being written off in the crash....think about the costs involved in recovering and repairing it. Make sure the insurance is 'agreed value' imho.

Personallly I have gone route 2/. twice. The first time was an unqualified success and the second time I got bit by a nasty corrosion surprise that didn't show up in the pre purchase inspection....and a few yrs later had to replace the spar.

The pre purchase inspection is money VERY, VERY, VERY well spent...get someone you know and trust and spend whatever it takes to ensure you're not surprised after you buy...even if it costs $1000 to decide a certain aeroplane is not for you and then walk away from it that is money extremely well spent!!!! Even if you have to fly that person interstate and put him up overnight do so rather than getting someone you don't know locally.

Probably if this is your first aircraft you might go route 1/., particularly if you're not terribly experienced....you will probably end up selling it and getting something more suited to your needs rather than one that fullfills your ego/dreams....mind you I see that you're talking about a C172 or similar rather than a Bonanza so perhaps that is not an issue. Still one day you may want a C182 and that would be the type of aircraft that you may consider restoring and then owning long term to justify the expence of route 2/.

That's about all off the top of my head.

Chuck.

[MLS-12D]

I agree with all of the advice offered above.

Running costs will vary, but some factors that should be taken into account include: insurance (public liability is relatively cheap, hull and passenger insurance are expensive); monthly storage costs; maintenance (including, but certainly not limited to, the cost of the annual inspection); fuel and oil; appreciation/depreciation; reserves for engine overhaul, prop overhaul, exterior overhaul (cost of repainting), interior overhaul (cost of reupholstering), and instrument overhaul (upgrading, etc.); financing costs (or loss of return on capital, if you pay cash); annual taxes and miscellaneous government fees; annual subscriptions (charts, approach plates, GPS database, etc.). And the list goes on! :)

Here are some weblinks that might be of some help:

(1) Aviation Consumer (http://aviationconsumer.com/) (reports on various aircraft and engine types, etc. Lots of good stuff; although you do have to purchase a paid subscription to access the site, it is probably worth it);

(2) Aircraft Ownership Center (http://www.aeroprice.com/) (I have not personally used the services offered by this site, so I don't know how useful they might be);

(3) "Skyhawk vs. Cherokee" (http://airbum.com/articles/CherokeesVsSkyhawks.html) (a comparison article by Budd Davisson);

(4) "Used Airplanes: buyer, be cynical" (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182682-1.html) (a generally useful discussion of various issues; American perspective, but still generally useful);

(5) "How Much Will it Cost to Fly?" (http://www.avweb.com/news/usedacft/182795-1.html) (extract from How to Buy a Used Aircraft Without Taking a Dive;

(6) "Cheap to Keep" (http://www.avweb.com/news/usedacft/181782-1.html) (there's no such thing as a cheap airplane: a better title would have been "Airplanes that are less ruinously expensive than most");

(7) "Choosing What Aircraft to Buy" (http://www.avweb.com/news/usedacft/182805-1.html) (some good advice here).

Even if your ultimate intention is to have your own airplane, it would be worth considering a partnership / syndicate. That way, you will gain insight into the costs (monetary and otherwise) of aircraft ownership, but you will not have such a large financial exposure and you will have other people with whom to share the various chores. If things go badly, you can sell out at a loss, or even walk away: options that would be prohibitively expensive if you have a 100% interest.

[lock wire]

What do you want it for? You'll probably out grow of a PA28 / C172 real quick.

I have a 1978 C172 which I use for instrument training, although I don't instruct any more so I'll probably put it up for sale. Easy / cheap to maintain; parts are ubiquitous.

I bought a Mooney for going places: now that is a good personal aircraft. 200 miles an hour on 9 gallons an hour with a 1,000 mile range. However it was an older model and the cost of maintenance was mind boggling. I know other owners of the same model who have found the maintenance to be absolutely minimal.

My advice would be to buy the newest aircraft you can afford, and to stay away from anything that has a high time engine.

I forgot the most important bit: a pre-purchase inspection from a REPUTABLE shop is vitally important. I paid for a pre-purchase inspection on the Mooney. It was squeeky clean, aparently. What they failed to notice was that the crank shaft was bent and that the crank case had 4 cracks running right through it.
That was a 20,000 dollar oversight.

[MLS-12D]

You'll probably out grow of a PA28 / C172 real quick.I know that would be true of me. On the other hand, there are many, many private owners of such 'spam cans', and most are very happy with their airplanes. And they are relatively easy to sell, if an owner later wants to 'trade up'.

Generally speaking, I would advise any first-time owner to adhere to the 'KISS principle' and avoid high performance airplanes like Mooneys. Learning how to look after an airplane is difficult enough without worrying about maintenance routines for variable-pitch airscrews, retractable undercarriage, turbocharged engines, etc. If speed is very important, there are simple-but-reasonably-fast airplanes (e.g., the Grumman Cheetah or Tiger (http://www.grumman.net/cgrcc/aa5.html)) that would be a better choice than a Mooney.

P.S. Of course, I just wrote the above for fun, and without naïvely imagining that anyone listens to me. If Captain Noodle decides that he must have a Mooney as a first airplane, he should at least read these articles (http://www.mooneypilots.com/prepurchase_inspections.html) on pre-purchase inspections.

P.P.S. Speaking of pre-purchase inspections, this article (http://edburkhead.home.insightbb.com/Ercoupe/pre-purchase.html) is specifically targeted at Ercoupes, but much of its contents are of general application. Chapter 5 ("Acceptance and Pre-purchase Checks") in Rules & Inspections (1987), ISBN 0-9615196-1-4, is also useful reading.

[Ya Zi]

A good bit of advice from a flight engineer I used to fly with:

"If it floats, flys or f#cks, it's cheaper to rent!"

[Flyboy-F33]

Good post by Chimbu if a little pessamistic about cost and time estimates.

I have to disagree with MLS who infact contradicts himself by saying buy something simple....but he would be bored with it in no time..!

I would advise you to consider something more complex if you feel up to it.....I did, my first aircraft was an Arrow, it saved me lots of time, not having to trade up to it second time around. hen you can go for something even more high performance on the next trade.

My final piece of advise would be not to spend up to the maximum amount of your budget...keep 10% in reserve for the first year 'eventualities' which WILL occur.

GG

[MLS-12D]

I have to disagree with MLS who infact contradicts himself by saying buy something simple....but he would be bored with it in no time..!From Captain Noodle's original post, I infer that at this point he does not have much experience with the responsibilities of aircraft ownership. Personally, I am not in an identical position; so my comment about my own preferences most likely does not apply to his situation.

I believe that most first-time buyers would be best served with simple aircraft. However, like all generalizations, that is subject to exceptions, and I'm glad that your experience with the Arrow has been positive. I also think that an Arrow (especially the non-turbocharged versions) is more suitable for a first-time buyer than most Mooneys would be.

My final piece of advise would be not to spend up to the maximum amount of your budget...keep 10% in reserve for the first year 'eventualities' which WILL occur.Excellent advice. Actually, many people would suggest that a 30% reserve would be even better.

[lock wire]

. . . my first aircraft was an Arrow . . .

I forgot to mention that the Mooney was my first aircraft. I had a newly minted PPL and a grand total of 50 hours. No problems getting checked out and no problems with insurance. 1,400 hours later and I still admire the performance and handling qualities of the Mooney. Although with hindsight I wish I'd bought something with more updated avionics.

[Confabulous]

Although with hindsight I wish I'd bought something with more updated avionics.

To be fair, that's not really an issue any more, because if by 'avionics' you mean GPS, moving maps, etc, just get yourself an iPaq, Bluetooth GPS and Pocket FMS, and a copy of NavStar on a laptop (optional), and presto, all the avionics you ever needed!

(Although if by 'avionics' you mean autopilot, HSI (I'd guess a Mooney has one anyway) and radios, then that'll be a bit more challenging.)

Out of curiousity, what model Mooney is it? What are the maintanence (can never spell that) costs like? I've heard they range from very high to very low, but it'd nice to have more then a rumour to go by! :ok:

Confab

[Monocock]

Interesting thread

In 1999 I was in exactly the same position as you are Capt Noodle. However, I wanted a 172 and nothing else would do. I found one. My approach was to view the aircraft and make sure I was potentially going to buy something that was structurally and mechanically sound but needed cosmetic work. I didn't want to be paying for someone elses chintz and I wanted a blank canvas. My view was that once I had found this I would send in the engineer. Luckily th A/C was half way through a C of A so the engineer could get a really good look through it.

It received the thumbs up and I parted with £27,000 cash.

I spent the money on it where I wanted over the three years that followed. I flew it like there was about to be a ban on flying. I went from 15 hours per year to 200 in a matter of weeks. It was the best plane money could buy in my eyes!

After a while I got bored so I stupidly sold it.

I bought a PA28 and never really learned to love it like I did the 172. I sold it and have never regretted that. It wasn't good at anything like the 172 is. The only thing the PA28 does well is make pilots feel like they are flying something that looks sexier than a 172. Believe me, the 172 is a far superior aircraft.

The Burberry handbag is to the Timberland rucksack what the PA28 is to the 172.

Where the 172 strides off the runway the PA28 stumbles like a fat bird with her knickers around her knees.

I bought another 172 without the amount of pre-purchase effort I had expended on the first. It was ok. Literally, it was ok. I realised that the 6 cylinder Continental it had up front was destined to empty the earths crust of fossil fuel within weeks. Also, the reduced power from the powerplant made it positively feel as though its knicker elastic was about to fail....

After a while I sold it.

My advice is go and buy a Lycoming powered 172 and spend time and money getting it exactly how you want it. Then, after a few years when you are wondering whether you should move to a PA28 go and look closely at a 1984 Ford Escort (entering through the passenger door) and ask yourself, "is this really what I want"?





:cool:

[LowNSlow]

I did something similar to Monocock with my first aircraft, a C150 Aerobat. Scruffy with ancient radios it was a good blank canvas. I had her stripped and sprayed, a top overhaul done on the engine, new radios, nav aids and a leather interior. I'd have her still if 90mph winds hadn't turned her into a heap of scrap ally :{
Get an engineer through recommendation, arrange for him to go over the aeroplanes you see with a fine tooth comb. If the owner doesn't like this approach put your chequebook back in your pocket and walk away no matter how good the machine looks.

I'd agree with keeping a minimum of 20%, preferably 30% of your budget to cover the unforseen snags that always seem to arise in the first few years of ownership.

Regarding the simple / complex debate, try a Reims Rocket. It's a C172 with a VP prop and a 6 cylinder 210 hp Continental. Not as fast as a retractable Arrow but you have 2 doors, excellent field performance, a reasonable cruise, superb load lifting capabilites and you can get a good one for around 40k (pounds that is).