BALPA vs TGWU

[Capt PPRuNe]

Apologies but I accidentally deleted the thread about BALPA vs TGWU. I was trying to delete a one liner insult by someone and clicked on the wrong button.

Please feel free to restart the thread and comments here. Any immature people need not bother posting their childish insults just because they don't like the comments of other they don't agree with.

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Capt PPRuNe
aka Danny Fyne
The Professional Pilots RUmour NEtwork

[DouglasDigby]

Saved a fair chunk of cash changing from BALPA to T&GWU. Well worth looking at, especially for legal cover, etc. Costs about GBP2 per week for T&GWU, & quite a few UK aviation people are getting themselves represented through T&G, both flightcrew and cabin crew.

[wobble-head]

well I posted the original so I say again...

I heard a rumour that a pilot has left Balpa and joined the Transport and General Workers Union. They only charge 5 quid a month and provide a similar degree of legal protection which appears the main reason people join Balpa.

Now that Delta pilots have achieved a 23% pay raise and Balpa are currently in talks with my firm for 6% are they value for money?

I don't know the details of DanAir but I've worked with pilots who felt they weren't very well served.

Is there anybody who has joined the TGWU or would any Balpa reps care to demonstrate their negotiating skills and argue thier cause?

[Reimers]

Well, as posted before, VC in Germany is currently asking for approx. 35%. This is not because they are completely mad, but they are a pilots only union and do not need to worry about other workers. During the 20 years that VC negociated along with larger unions for all kinds of staff there was a tendency to level the pay differences between pilots and ground staff and pilots have realized they were not that happy with getting a little less every time after all.
Now times have changed and one principal aspect in Germany is that all organized pilots are in the VC and no place else. If you don't like what BALPA is negaciating my guess is that you should rather try to take a more active role in BALPA and try to change them from within.
Well, we all will know more when on the afternoon of May 3rd, 2001, voting on str-ike has come to an end.
I sure hope that if VC is successfull, many other pilot unions will follow suit.

[HectorPascal]

BALPA - £55 per month / 6000 members
TGWU - £7 per month / 1,200,000 members
so who has the clout?

[Nearly Nigel]

There are 130 BALPA members at CityFlyer who won recognition only last October. They are currently watching the 'integration' negotiations very carefully.

I don't want to put BALPA down yet as it ain't over 'till the fat lady sings.. but existing service/seniority within CFE is not being recoginsed under the offer currently on the table.

I reckon BALPA may need to fight a bit harder for the rights of the CFE pilots if they want to keep their 130 members this time next year.

Oh! I forgot, there's a conflict of interest with the 3200 Nigels. Are they more important or just richer?

I wonder what the rest of the industry thinks.

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Disappears up the seniority list....

[standby1]

No.... they just know how to get organised, stand together and not be divided

[tired]

Nearly Nige - you hit it on the head. If you don't work for Big Airways and they decide to take over/merge/ absorb/ buy out your mob, it doesn't take rocket science to work out whose side BALPA will fight in the seniority list negotiations.

[Secret Squirrel]

Standby1

Interesting viewpoint; Would that be the sort of 'organisation, standing together and undivided' principle employed by Mainline over EOG which cost EOG 9 years to achieve equal rates of pay? The "I'm alright, Jack" principle!

The IPA are probably watching our plight very carefully too. Although they are not a Union as such, due to recent developements and Balpa's mishandling of this 'merger', they are beginning to see that there is some mileage in it. The best thing about the IPA, as opposed to Balpa, is that if you get into trouble, they will represent you regardless of your plight; innocent until proven.... which is something you cannot say about Balpa.

Once this all goes through I know where my subs are going!

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Very funny, Scotty. Now beam up my clothes!

[next in line]

Wobble-head/Beak,

Your comments typify exactly what is wrong with so many pilots in GB - ie, "What can I get out of my Trade Union membership?" rather that what you might be prepared to put in to it.

The only Trade Union which has negotiating rights for its pilots is Balpa. It has been doing so for 30 years of my career and it has done its best given the circumstances. I am very proud to be a member. I give my reps my opinions - I have lots of them! - and I give them my full support.

If your company does not have a recognised council, then if you staill have any doubts, why don't you e mail the Chairman of Balpa and ask him to explain.

PS A number of ex Dan pilots have just rejoined Balpa so Balpa must be doing something right!

[wobble-head]

Next in line

What do you mean "Balpa does its best under the circumstances". I'm sorry but if you compare their attitude with that of our American cousins then they have as much spine as a jelly fish.

They allowed EOG, Atlas Cargo, ask Virgin Atlantic if they are satisfied with negotiations so far. Ask BA DEP if they feel the reps have any interest for them.

[slj]

Hector Pascal

You are right about power in numbers.

However, pilots, airline staff will only get the "power" support if there are enough of them in TGWU for that union to provide the level of support (and information) you need.

TTGWU may look at the relatively few members and their contributions against the total cost of representing those members.

It is a difficult one to call but perhaps the advice to put into and lobby your specialised union is good advice.

Just a few thoughts on the matter.

[next in line]

Wobble-head,

<<They allowed EOG, Atlas Cargo, >>

Who exactly is 'they'?

In the first case, BA wanted to set up a totally separate company without any access to/from BA Mainline. IMO, if this had occurred, then EOG would have been vying with CFE to see who would have had the worst T&Cs in the UK! However, Balpa - in this case 'they' are the BA section - argued successfully that it should be a part of BA proper. Were 'they' wrong? Should 'they' have agreed with BA that EOG should have become a separate company? Would ex Dan pilots have preferred that?

It has taken this BA section of Balpa some time to improve the T&Cs at EOG, including the introduction of FHR (a pay rise of about £7k for Captains which, btw, is what CFE captains will get if they approve the proposals to join the BA Master Seniority List) and there is still more to do.

In the case of Atlas, what do you propose?

[heretic]

Could someone explain what FHR is about?

[snooky]

I think that BALPA are the only real hope for all UK pilots. Dividing up into factions in other unions would only be making life easier for airline managers.
I was very disappointed to read in the editorial of the latest Log that we should be grateful as airline pilots to be (generally) so well paid. Compared to other professions and pilots elsewhere we are definately not well paid, and what hope is there that we ever will be if our union publishes such views in the editorial of their journal?

[Boeingman]

US ALPA I believe have around 350 full time staff of which 80 odd have legal qualifications.

Subs are 1.9% of salary ( Correct me if I'm wrong )

[OrsonCart]

It would appear that my original reply has been deleted. Trade unions are founded on the principle of maintaining and enhancing terms and conditions, but not necessarily professional issues. The T & GWU has vast experience negotiating pay and pay related benefits, perhaps their only failing it could be argued could be their lack of experience dealing with pilots.

Many of the airlines or handling companies in the UK will have T & G members within the ground based operation, so that union will have plenty of experience dealing with the styles of management associated with the airlines/airline support services.

What you need to be careful of is that Pilots pay rises are not interlinked with other employees, as this would certainly hold back wage increase settlements.

As I commented on in my previous deleted post. Trade unionism has massive tangible benefits. The work that IPMS (The NATS ATCO trade union) put into PPP and the resulting outcome must not be overlooked. The work that the ATCO’s specialist body GATCO puts in to maintain and enhancing the ATCO profession works in harmony with the endeavours of IPMS to maintain and enhance members terms and conditions.

[wobble-head]

Next in Line,

By "they" I am refering to Balpa.

Regarding EOG: No doubt BA management would have wanted to start that operation at minimal cost and their opening gambit would have been to propose a separate company. However do you realy consider it a victory to have colleauges on different T&Cs from the word go? I'm sure those reps have worked hard to improve conditions at EOG but I feel that Balpa should have led and co-ordinated resistance to those proposals in the first place.

Regarding Atlas: if our national airline has a requirement for cargo aircraft then why is it not investing in its own fleet. Atlas is a US company that primarily employs pilots with pensions from other employers (I read that in the log). As I understand it the DTI gave BA temporary permission to use a non-EU carrier, what does Balpa propose? I would come up with a proposal if the Union was paying me %1.

I am relatively new to the industry and joined Balpa primarily because I believe in the principal of Trade Unionism. I wholeheartedly agree with you that a union is only as strong as its members. However it is up to the leadership of that Union to dare I say it LEAD.

At present in the US Comair, a regional owned by Delta, are entering their second month on strike. I was on the flight deck of a Delta aircraft and they were discussing the possibility of a strike fund for their colleagues. I wondered at the time if a BA Captain would be happy to do the same for a CityFlyer colleague.

Comair may go down but would that be such a tragedy when they have a $1 billion turnover and their pilots average $30k?

Going back to my original point, compared to the attitude and ability of ALPA to defend, maintain and fight for its members pay and conditions do you think Balpa is value for money?

SLJ

I agree that it would be preferable to be in a specialised union and Balpa provide a great deal of information and guidance on professional issues. However I still feel they fall short of the mark when it comes to defending pilots interests.

[HalesAndPace]

Surely also depends on size of company, and most importantly, stance of the management. Isn't it 50% membership of TGWU to gain statutory recognition under UK law?

[next in line]

Wobble-head,

<<By "they" I am refering to Balpa. >>

I realised this but which particular part of balpa? The CCs are very independent and do not like other CCs interferring in their business. For example, the BY CC would think it was nothing to do with anybody else if the Airtours CC passed comment on BY's operations outside the UK. No CC wants to be told what to do by Head Office!

In relation to Atlas, exactly what should 'Balpa' have done? should all the CCs have gone on strike? Do you believe this to be legal?

As far as I am aware, Balpa's efforts at Government and European level have resulted in Atlas being forced to set up an operation in the UK (Global supply Services - controlled by Atlas of course but...) using UK registered a/c and UK registered pilots - ie, jobs for UK pilots, raather than US pilots.

Internally within balpa, the BA section is determined to make sure that the 2 Atlas a/c wet leased to BA will be crewed by BA pilots whilst others believe that these jobs should go to non BA pilots. What do you think?

[wobble-head]

Next in line

I don't pretend to know the full structure of Balpa. I don't believe that every company should go on strike over every difference they have with management.

we could discuss the finer points ad infinitum I just have to ask you again, when compared to their American counterparts how do you think Balpa compare?

[PaulDeGearup]

One of the biggest problems which BALPA, CCs and members, has to address is the "Im all right Jack" syndrome.

So long as there is no co-ordinated effort the union can never be strong: if BA don,t support Airtours members and bmi don,t support BY members etc what chance do we have ? The only prospect of maintaing a reasonable set of T & Cs throughout the industry is with unity. If you aren,t a BALPA member join now. Unless we stick together the cracks can be prosed apart and pilots seriously disadvantaged.

Ive seen the difference a change in personalities can make within a CC: dishounourablle individuals who sold the mates down the river to feather their own nests were replaced by people of integrity, but it takes time to undo the harm that was done.

[next in line]

Wobble-head,

I am sorry, but I have no personal experience of Alpa. What I do know is that despite sharing a common language (!), conditions in our two countries are quite different.

In the US, contracts between Unions and the Airlines are legally enforceable; in the UK, they are 'binding in honour' only.

In the US, pilots are willing to take industrial action; in the UK, they are not so willing but may do when they feel so hacked off. The strength of any Union is determined by its members, not by the full time staff. More pilots like you (you appear to be willing to 'get involved') are needed - perhaps you might be willing to get involved in your own company and attempt to change things?

[wobble-head]

Next in line

I agree that one should be prepared to get involved. I also agree that we do have a culture of I'm all right jack as as mentioned by "pauldegearup".

It's important that Balpa realise that there is an alternative to them and they may have to compete for membership.

Thanks to all those who responded

[Wino]

Balpa is a pilots union. Like it or hate it, its is a union of pilots and smart pilots will be represented by pilots

In the United States we have a spectacular example of what happens to skilled labor that gets represented by unskilled labor. That example is the a&p mechanics that work on the aircraft.

In the US they thought they would get stronger if they bonded with the ramp and bag smashers. "They said look at the numbers", we will have the power. Well by and large the bag smashers are now way overpaid and the mechanics are GROSSLY underpaid. The highest paid A&Ps would be the northwest mechanics under the contract that has yet to be paid, and we are still talking about 30 dollars an hour for the most senior mechanics.

Auto mechanics make more than that and they don't need an expensive a&p License.

If you pilots throw your skilled labor in with the unskilled labor, unskilled will be most grateful, and you will lose. That is why now you are starting to see independant aircraft mechanics unions in the US.

US pilots represented by the TEAMSTERS have never done will. That is why the UPS pilots left Teamseters and formed the IPA to represent them. 30 million members with nothing in common except for whom they pay dues to provides NO strength at all.


Good luck
Wino

[CredeSigno]

Like all unions, compared to 10-15 years ago Balpa don't have anything like the clout they used to have but are afraid to admit it.

Like other unions they have to justify their inactivity and lack of media spotlight somehow!

[Waltertight]

If you are looking for options other than BALPA try IPMS. Thousands of ATCO's can't all be that wrong shurely?????

[OrsonCart]

This skill needs to be represented by a union fit to throw the muck and not within the pockets of the management. Utopia?

As I stated earlier, pilots within the T & G need to distance themselves from a company wide pay deal, but focus on targeting a pay and benefits package that targets the key workforce, in this case the pilots.

I have no experience dealing with BALPA. I have plenty of stories and tales linking civil aviation workers with private sector management. The two do not seem to gel especially as those doing the negotiating for the employer earn less than those that are negotiating a wage rise! Jealousy always gets the better of management. Pity as they are only employed because of the success of their workforce!

Find a representative body that will shout against poor deals for staff vocally and very forcibly. Hopefully for you ‘flyers’ BALPA strongly represents you conclusively?

[actjag]

The BIG problem at the moment is that, we as, pilots are our own worst enemies. Look after number one and sod the rest! That type of attitude isn't going to get us the required payrises, or recognition we deserve!

Until such time, as Pauldegearup says, that we as pilots stick together we are wasting our time and money!

Just because we love the job we do, doesn't mean we should bend over and spread our legs for the management!

[Arkroyal]

Wino,

Nice to agree with you for a change. Absolutely. TGWU might be cheap, but if BALPA is weakened by an exodus to a union which has no concept of aviation then we are doomed.

You get what you pay for.

Might as well take your shiny new Porsche to The Arches and let Phil Mitchell service it!

[zzz]

Well said snooky, what chance do we have at the negotiating table when the BALPA log editorial is saying we get loads of time off and get paid plenty of money! Having read the article it doesn't give me much confidence about any forthcoming pay negotiations. Are BALPA really in touch with their members feelings?

cheers zzz