L1011 MCC Bournemouth

[Just another student]

Is anybody familiar with the Tristar MCC at Bournemouth? Would anyone recommend the course. I could see it being an exciting challenge and would be my hearts choice.However my brain is telling me 737 or A320.

Any thoughts?

Thanks as always

JAS

[scroggs]

MCC is about CRM training in a fligght deck environment. It has nothing to do with the type represented by the simulator the course uses. Frankly, you could do it on two chairs with MS Flight Sim running in front of you. Don't get hung up on what simulator you may or may not do it on.

Scroggs

[Just another student]

Scroggs, would you make the choice based on the cost of the course then? I've not really looked into the subject in depth yet, it would seem from what I have read, you practice emergency procedures etc working in a team. Is it purely designed to help you the individual work as part of a cockpit and crew unit?

From what I have read in past posts, people seem to advise to go in a sim that may help you later on so to speak.That's the main reason I asked the question. The L1011 comes in at around 2300 GBP, where as others can be as much as 3500 (757, A320 etc)

If I could do it with FS2004, I may aswell stay in my bed room lol :p

Cheers

[Canada Goose]

I know 2 guys who went there about a month ago and they both highly recommended it !! The L1011 is a full motion sim and the chap who teaches is apparently very good and very experienced !!
Hope it helps ........... if/when I do my MCC I will probably go there. One thing they did say was it's easier to do if you've linked up with someone in advance, otherwise you have to wait til there's another person who is on there own !!

CG.

[Just another student]

Thanks CG, people do seem to speak highly of the course.

Just a simple matter of passing a CPL, MEP and IR check ride first :)

[Snigs]

I did mine there, albeit a long time ago (late 2001). I'd recommend the sim, it's full motion and hence is a good laugh and very educational!

Scroggs, you could do it on two chairs with MS Flight Sim running in front of you. You know that's not true! How would you do the emergency decompression drill, or pilot incapacitation, of for that matter the RTO with all the bells going off for an engine fire with MS Flight Sim????

I agree that is doesn't matter which sim but I feel that it should be done in an authentic full motion sim, which MS FS isn't!

[Hufty]

I went there in early 2003 and had a great time. It would be useful to do it on an EFIS equipped aircraft, but the big jet handling experience you get is really helpful when it comes to a sim ride. You get the CRM experience whatever sim you do it on, but I found it helpful to get used to the inertia of such a big "aeroplane".

When I was there BCFT (I think) used that sim as did another crowd MCT. I used MCT and they were very good indeed.

Hufty.

[ATP_Al]

It doesn't matter what sim you do it on, but if you can fly an FNPT2 for £2000 or a Tristar for £2400 take the Tristar just for the experience!

I did mine with BCFT in February and loved it - the course covers a lot more than the basic syllabus and I learned quite a bit about jet handling during the week.

Al

[Just another student]

I would love to experience the Tristar sim and it does seem to be one of the better priced courses. I have not heard or read (so far) a bad word said about the course.

Cheers

JAS

[Irish Steve]

You know that's not true! How would you do the emergency decompression drill, or pilot incapacitation, of for that matter the RTO with all the bells going off for an engine fire with MS Flight Sim????

Most of that is type specific, so you'll end up doing it in the sim anyway.

A long time ago, not long after Kegworth, Aer Lingus needed to get a group of cadets through an MCC course, and at that time, they were new CPL's with very little ME time, let alone jet time.

For operational reasons, they decided that the best way to do this training was with a specialised FS4 (that tells you how long ago it was) based dual control system, using specialised scenarios that developed the MCC aspects of the training.

It worked.

It wasn't a motion sim, it wasn't even an enclosed cockpit, and there were other limitations, but it worked.

The important aspect wasn't that it bounced hard if the landing wasn't right, it was that they could correctly develop the interpersonal skills needed between the crew members in an aviation related environment, which FS4 was able to provide.

[spitfire747]

I did the MCC there with BCFT last week and it was the best 20 hours i think i have done. The Tristar is an excellent sim and although not EFIS equipped, is more like the sort of sim you will be using for a sim ride in the future, so from that point of view the handling is very helpful.

I had an amazing time and the value of the course in relation to working together as a team is very very good. well worth the extra pounds in my opinion.. reward yourself at the end of the CPL/IR training.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/michael.thompson23/trista/MCC-p0001.JPG

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/michael.thompson23/trista/MCC-p0005.JPG

[Just another student]

Spitfire 747 check your pm's please

JAS

[GuinnessQueen]

Yep, I couldn't agree more with Spitfire747, a great course, very valuable in how to operate as a team and good fun flying the jet hands on by the end of the course.

I'm happy to recommend the course to anyone. Originally I was just going to settle for the cheapest option I could find, but with hindsight, well worth the £400 more.

Of course Spit, you could mention how wonderful the course was made by the person sitting next to you (excusing my frequent 'blonde monemet's)!

Cheers

GQ

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

Nice pictures Spit.

Scroggs, I don't think sitting on two chairs in front of MS flight sim would be quite as much fun as completing the course in a full motion jet simulator. I can share the enthusiasm these guys have for wanting to do their MCC's in decent simulators.

[Send Clowns]

You didn't come and say hi, Spit!

[spitfire747]

guiness queen.... never knew you liked the black stuff ...yes of course the whole experience is made all the better by having a good partner who you can work well with and mine was ace :ok: ... i don't know about any blonde moments but i do know how good it felt on the final day when we flew it from london heathrow to prestwick, turnaround and back to heathrow, all by ourselves, even seating the cabin crew for moderate turbulence at FL330... with the only words from the instructor were radar headings to steer on departures.

have to agree with Cat3C, doing this course infront of an mssim on milk crates would not have te same impact, sure you woul learn the same things and probably work together just as well, but the sheer "wow" factor is missing..

send clowns.. i did say hi, i think, i asked you for a job ! unless i have you confused with somone else

now i must get on with my cv's can't wait to do this airline flying for a full time job !

enjoy

[Addy]

I did the MCC with EPTA on the Tristar, and I think it's the best thing I've had so far! If you are a competent pilot you'll get out of there with a lot of confidence, the guys teaching (especially Cpt. Smith :ok: He's also the guy that has loads of experience on the Tristar as someone said, so he knows exactly how to work the thing) are top blokes and they'll sort you out with multi crew cooperation in no time (if you do put some effort in yourself that is)

We had a group of 4 guys that were all pretty experienced and who knew how to fly, so we didn't really come across any problems. Just do it I'd say, you won't regret it!
(plus like you said, it's pretty cheap compared to others who use the 73 sim, but hey MCC is MCC, you're not doing a type rating, you won't learn how to use EFIS or whatever, you just get a first impression to big jet handling.)

good luck

[Just another student]

Thanks for all the responses. I've just got the small matter of a CPL/IR to contend with before hand :uhoh:

Cheers

JAS

[scroggs]

I think a few people have hit the knub of the matter without really understanding it! The point is that it's the quality of the instruction that's the most important factor. It is quite irrelevant what tool the FTO uses for the student to imitate airline-style procedures. It may make you feel more motivated to be in a genuine airliner simulator, but it is actually irrelevant to the content of the course.

As for learning handling skills that you can take on to your first airline job, I'm sorry, but you're deluding yourselves! Other than getting a loose idea of what is involved flying a big jet, you will learn relatively little about the specific type. That's what your type-rating course is for (whether you or an airline pays for it...). I repeat, don't get hung up on the device the school uses. An FNTP2 is quite adequate. There's a perfectly reasonable argument that says that a complex, unfamiliar flight deck is a distraction from the crew co-operation training you are supposed to be receiving.

That said, I have nothing against people doing MCC training in a 'proper' simulator other than the fact that you're paying a lot of money to use a tool that is way too sophisticated for the task at hand. It's your dosh! And remember, MCC was supposed to be part of the airline type-rating course...

Scroggs

[avrodamo]

Did my MCC there about 4 weeks ago. It was superb. Every bit as good as you would expect, and if you knuckle down do as your told, and then apply that in the Sim it will go great. A bit of work after class learning your SOPs will help you out no end

[Just another student]

Again thanks for all the invaluable advice.

JAS

[JB007]

Did my MCC at BCFT on the L1011 - a bloody good laugh, lots of fun and the instructor had us in stiches...not exactly a PC chap!!!!!

Handling skills and jet experience???? - Forget it. It's nothing more than a VERY VERY VERY brief introduction to life working in a multi-crew environment....end of story!

When you get to do the real thing, all will become clear.....!!!!

[Send Clowns]

As I work for one of the companies in question (and my colleague won't be able to get in the sim with the big head he's going to get from these comments!) I am reluctant to step in, but I feel as someone who chose to use a jet simulator for my own MCC I must correct a misconception Scroggs seems to be under.

For the majority of people who take an MCC the next trip they have on a jet simulator will not be on company training. For most it will be a simulator check ride to get a job! Therefore the handling skills one learns in a decent simulator, while being as restricted as Scroggs says, are valuable in that they are better than nothing. I certainly have had a massive confidence boost, knowing I an actually land a wide-bodied jet, assymetric, hand flying from raw data!

I agree entirely that the intention was that this be part of type-rating training, unfortunately the legislation was not worded that way, and the situation that has developed is inevitable. It is not, however, the fault of the schools, but is a combination of recently-graduated pilots' one-up-manship and airlines paring things to a minimum of cost.

[scroggs]

The point of being placed in an unfamiliar simulator in your job interview is that your basic flying skills and your ability to absorb new information can be assessed. There is nothing wrong with having a bit of practise beforehand if you can afford it, though I would guess that the airline might disagree! However, we are talking about the relevance of an airliner simulator - and its associated costs - to MCC.

MCC is not a period of instruction in how to fly an airliner. It is a period of instruction in how to work together with someone you don't know in relatively high-stress situations, using basic (but representative) Standard Operating Procedures. To achieve this, it is helpful to have a believable environment, but it is not necessary for that to be representative of any particular type of aeroplane. A generic simulator (such as the FNPT2) is quite adequate, and considerably cheaper to run. This should be reflected in the costs of the course.

As I said earlier, the most important element of the MCC course is the quality of instruction, and I'm delighted to hear that BCFT's MCC is well regarded by those who have used it. However, that is quite independent of the device the instruction is given in. Do not choose your MCC provider on the basis of the simulator they offer.

If you wish to experience an airliner simulator with the intent of getting some practise prior to an airline assessment, I would suggest that you approach that as a separate issue.

Scroggs

[Send Clowns]

I agree that this is rather something of an aside to the issue at discussion. The type of simulator is irrelevant to the gain in crew co-operation from the course. The benefit I have felt is purely in confidence, for job search, and nothing to do with the original purpose, which is of course flight safety and the most important benefit of the MCC!

[Nimrod615]

Just about to head over to "Trijet 100 heavy" now for my last MCC trip.

VERY VERY GOOD. Ground school was fun, sim is great and yes the instructor is a pretty decent guy too...cheers Tony.

Highly recommended..well done BCFT!

[Just another student]

I think I will go ahead with Bournemouth eventually. It is clear that the course must be well constructed and the tuition good. Although how much you can actually teach about working with others I guess is difficult to judge. Surly a lot of the skills should be naturally present in a Pilot? Or am I being daft?

[Send Clowns]

You have learnt the first lesson: look deep within yourself :p

On a more serious note, having done it I can see why it was instituted. You do learn a lot about the issue of co-operation, starting with how much we assume abot co-operation and teamwork that is not the case, followed by how others have screwed up in the past, a large section of the groundschool.

[european champion]

What is the standars in order to get the MCC certificate?Do most people manage to get it after the 20 hours of simulator or is it common for some people to be required to do some additional training?

[carbonfibre]

I have to agree with all the posts, I completed my MCC at BCFT with Tony and had a hoot, but most of all I learned a lot, ok the for's and against the sim is a personal choice but having to do it again I would do it in that sim providing the instruction was as good. The difference at the time to a generic FNPT11 was £300 so for me it was a no brainer and proved to be a good choice.

The one thing that this Sim did for you was to improve your team working skills at a higher or should I say smoother rate due to the sheer speed and rates of the sim as opposed to the generic prop otherwise no added complexities were above what you see in a generic sim.

You did get to complete some hand flying which was good, the LOFT route was excellent as was the Missed approach in LHR and divert to Gatwick, the de-compression part was very realistic as were the windshear programs that were added. it all happens quickly and a very serious course but what fun.

:ok:

[moggiee]

What is the standars in order to get the MCC certificate?Do most people manage to get it after the 20 hours of simulator or is it common for some people to be required to do some additional training?
There is no test - but it is not an attendance course. The FTO can withold the certificate if they feel that you have not put enough effort into it - but really you get out of it what you put into it.

In my experience, most people take 12-16 hours to really beigin to get "into the groove" when it comes to the SOP. By the end of 20 hours, the difference in the trainees is remarkable - they have covered so much ground and learnt so much that they are transformed.

But you have to work to get the best out of it.

[BillieBob]

The FTO can withold the certificate if they feel that you have not put enough effort into it An interesting point of view, and one not shared by the UK CAA, according to our Training Inspector.

[herbaceous]

I heard a rumouor that there will be a 737NG sim in Bristol which may be running a MCC course for the mid £2k range. Would be a more up to date aircraft type for interviews etc, I think the extra few hundred quid would be worth it at a interview, my thoughts anyway. Check them out www.flightexperience.co.uk (http://www.flightexperience.co.uk)

[utva]

Hi all,

Just wanted to say a few words about the MCC course which I completed last week in Bournemouth.

The course lasts 8 days three of which are ground school and the rest in the TriJet 100 simulator. I booked the course through BCFT. The ground school was at the BCFT premises and the rest at European Aviation.

Have to say that European Aviation set-up was excellent. There is a class-room with with full size cockpit schematics where you can sit as long as you want and practice the procedures before and after the sim sessions. The sim sessions were also excellent. The guy who runs the course, Tony, was very helpful and has bags of experience as an air line captain. I think he now runs the course only through European Aviation http://www.euroav.com/ and thaey actually own the simulators.

Best regards and I hope you enjoy it if you choose to go there for your MCC!!
MT

[moggiee]

An interesting point of view, and one not shared by the UK CAA, according to our Training Inspector.
Then he ought to check his own paperwork! The certificate is dependent upon "satisfactory" completion of the course and an FTO is at liberty to withold the certificate if they feel that has not been achieved. I had to threaten it once - got the student in question to pull his finger out.
As for personal recommendations, the trouble is that most people only ever do one MCC course and thus think that the one they did is the best! It's natural, we all do it.

[carbonfibre]

I completed the MCC on the Tristar it was fantastic, that said the experience of full motion and the instructor giving us some extra raw data flying made it worth while.

All said and done its about working as a crew, so if the course is done correctly is does not matter what you have done it on, you will improve along the way while you are sweating as though you were doing circuits for the first time again

But its fun

:ok:

[Dougle Mcguire]

For once will you please please accept other peoples views. Just because you are a moderator doesn't always make you right. Any jet-sim time, be it flying or sitting in the back observing in invaluable to any student. Any piece of info that someone can take with them, be it big or small is still a bonus. I personally would rather take a sim-ride after spending some time in a full motion sim as opposed to stepping off a Duchess or Seminole and not having the experience of something bigger.

[Gullyone]

Just to put in my 10 pence worth.
If you just want an MCC certificate do it as cheap as possible. However if you intend to go down the airline assesment route spend your money on a decent course with a sim that puts you at ease when you are confronted with a 737/757 type for your assesment. The airlines dont mind you having practised on a decent simulator as they would expect an enhanced performance., however it makes you feel more confident so that the whole thing is not such a big surprise.
I speak as a 20000+ plot who is now an MCC instructor.

[scroggs]

For once will you please please accept other peoples views. Just because you are a moderator doesn't always make you right. Any jet-sim time, be it flying or sitting in the back observing in invaluable to any student. Any piece of info that someone can take with them, be it big or small is still a bonus. I personally would rather take a sim-ride after spending some time in a full motion sim as opposed to stepping off a Duchess or Seminole and not having the experience of something bigger.

I assume you refer to the post I made in this thread on 22nd April 2005?

Let me share with you a couple of facts. I am an airline captain with over 13,000 flying hours. I have been in the professional aviation business since February 1977. I have been involved in recruiting and training for a considerable proportion of that time. I therefore have a reasonable amount of knowledge and experience with which to inform my opinions.

Perhaps you would care to point out exactly what in that post is incorrect, and what experience you have to justify the assertion that I am wrong?

Scroggs

[LRdriver II]

There is no test - but it is not an attendance course. The FTO can withold the certificate if they feel that you have not put enough effort into it - but really you get out of it what you put into it.
In my experience, most people take 12-16 hours to really beigin to get "into the groove" when it comes to the SOP. By the end of 20 hours, the difference in the trainees is remarkable - they have covered so much ground and learnt so much that they are transformed.
But you have to work to get the best out of it.

A guy I know, did his MCC somewhere in Germany. They did a checkride at the end of it.

[PPRuNeUser0215]

The MCC is a box ticking exercice, nothing more... I did it on the cheap, in a fixed based FNPTII. Worked fine, save myself some money (the instructor was able to renew my IR on it so that was a double whammy)) and ended up flying Medium and Heavy jets.
It really doesn't matter what you do it on and certainly in the UK, you can't fail it because it is not a test.
Now unless you have an interview/sim ride coming shortly after your MCC, I would say the benefit of practising in a full motion sim beforehand is probably limited. It is not to say that once you have an a sim ride coming, you shouldn't try to book yourself a sim session somewhere.
The first time I did on a 125. Worked fine.
The second time I bought FS (the latest whatever it is) and it worked fine too (as it was basic scanning the "needles" an expensive sim wouldn't have made the slightest difference).
I think guys that the situation you are in requires you to keep your IR running, your medical up to date and some hours coming in your logbook.
Depending on how long you will be in the job market for, this can be all very expensive so saving 500 pounds now, might come handy later.
I/R renewal 300 pounds perhaps. Medical 100 quids=> That 's you current for 12 months. Not bad when in the application form they ask. Are you current ? and you can tick the Yes box.

Sure the idea of handling a Tristar sounds appealing but you should concentrate on a getting a job first. Being out of currency renders your licence invalid, regarless of an MCC done on whatever.

[moggiee]

A guy I know, did his MCC somewhere in Germany. They did a checkride at the end of it.
As long as it's not a pass/fail checkride then that would be OK - if the customer agreed.

However, there should be no assessment, grading or testing on an MCC course - even though a caerificate may be withheld. You have to "satisfactorily complete" and MCC course to be awarded a certificate - but how anyone can judge "satisfactory" with no test/grading/assessment.

[Dougle Mcguire]

Again you are correct and not willing to listen to anyone elses opinion. Please dont waste anymore of your or my time by replying. Thank you.

[Mercenary Pilot]

Dougle Mcguire,

Scroggs is only voicing his (well informed) opinion on this matter.

When you have spent some time in this industry you will learn that an MCC course can only lay down some basic principles that have very little to do with actually flying aircraft. In fact MCC principles developed by the aviation industry are being applied to other areas such as "A&E" units in hospitals.

If the Tristar sim is only £400 more than an FNPTII generic sim then by all means go for the experience of a simulated L1011 operation but don’t think that the simulator has anything to do with the course. It all depends on the structure and the instructor.

Doing an MCC on a "heavy" won’t really help at all for a sim check because:

A/ They will expect a slightly higher standard from you (Or so I have been told from 2 "recruitment panel" Pilots from very large airlines)

and

B/ You shouldn’t be doing that much hand flying anyway.

[Gullyone]

All the sim assesments I have heard of are manualy flown raw data procedures (except maybe wizzair), one reason being that they could not teach autoflight procedures in the time available. It is true that a higher standard maybe expected of the more experienced pilot, but to jump into a jet sim without any previous is a little daunting.

[Mercenary Pilot]

As Scroggs said in an earlier post, the Airlines are looking at how well you cope with a new environment and how quickly you adapt and improve.

I was told (again by one of the recruitment pilots I mentioned earlier) that they don’t expect their potential new hires (fresh fATPL's) to have done any jet sim time. If they have then the airline will want to know, it will look very bad if a potential recruit say they haven’t when the instructor can easily tell that they have.

B/ You shouldn’t be doing that much hand flying anyway.If it wasn't clear, I meant you shouldn't be doing much hand flying on the MCC. Sim assessments on the other hand will probably be flown full raw data.

Cheers

MP
:ok:

[scroggs]

Again you are correct and not willing to listen to anyone elses opinion. Please dont waste anymore of your or my time by replying. Thank you.

No, Dougle, it is you who is not listening. I have asked you to point out what was wrong with my post of a year and a half ago. You have chosen both to ignore the question and to ignore my experience, which backs all of the opinions I state here. I have no problem with being wrong, but I do expect those who challenge my views to state what exactly they are challenging, what the alternative point of view is, and what evidence and experience they have to challenge me with. You have singularly failed to provide any of these.

If you don't like what I say, I can live with that. I'm not here to be popular; I am here to see that wannabes are told the truth about commercial aviation and how to get into it. I will not allow myths to be perpetrated that can seriously affect a wannabe's wealth to no purpose.

Scroggs