En-Route Holding (Merged)

[5milesbaby]

A thread for both ATC and pilots alike.

Over the last few days there have been several occasions where en-route holding for both Heathrow and Gatwick has taken place.

The questions I have is for the pilots flying into the TMA from the south via Akiki(UN867)/Gibso(UR8/H51).

For pilots, how much time do you need to enter the details into the FMS for a hold that isn't on the flightplan ie. at POMPI or BEWLI? The latter affects those via AKIKI that have a task to enter 4 more RP's to get into the hold as the traffic via GIBSO have BEWLI already entered. Does the FMS have potential holds already entered to just hit "enter" or is it a full input required? Its helpful to know this so if a last minute call is made to hold out then vectors will be initiated to bend you in for the correct entry giving you time to get the FMS set up adequately.

Also for the pilots, does it annoy you once we get you to enter an unusual hold (ie. off-route) and then cancel it just as you get there? It seems to be "Murphy's Law" that we always do this!

For the TC controllers, how much notice do you get yourselves that you don't have enough room at the inner stacks? I try as planner to look ahead and maybe give a call to initiate checking if I think its needed or we have a bunch on its way, but over the last few days some of the calls from yourselves have been a little on the late side limiting the options on en-route holding severely, especially for those that need to hold at fixes "off-route". We try to predict the situation but sometimes we just don't get the full picture, any ideas on how we can improve this?

Finally for the TC controllers, when you bring on the next inbound, how do you expect us to do this? Do you expect an immediate manouvre to get the a/c continued, or as the a/c has the EAT, do you not mind how much time we take to pull the a/c off and on into the TMA? Sometimes for us keeping it spinning can help out against the outbounds/other inbounds but I wondered if this compromised what plans the Co-ordinator had made?

I've copied this to the Questions forum just open it out into the Pilot 'massive' also.

[5milesbaby]

A thread for both ATC and pilots alike.

Over the last few days there have been several occasions where en-route holding for both Heathrow and Gatwick has taken place.

The questions I have is for the pilots flying into the TMA from the south via Akiki(UN867)/Gibso(UR8/H51).

For pilots, how much time do you need to enter the details into the FMS for a hold that isn't on the flightplan ie. at POMPI or BEWLI? The latter affects those via AKIKI that have a task to enter 4 more RP's to get into the hold as the traffic via GIBSO have BEWLI already entered. Does the FMS have potential holds already entered to just hit "enter" or is it a full input required? Its helpful to know this so if a last minute call is made to hold out then vectors will be initiated to bend you in for the correct entry giving you time to get the FMS set up adequately.

Also for the pilots, does it annoy you once we get you to enter an unusual hold (ie. off-route) and then cancel it just as you get there? It seems to be "Murphy's Law" that we always do this!

For the TC controllers, how much notice do you get yourselves that you don't have enough room at the inner stacks? I try as planner to look ahead and maybe give a call to initiate checking if I think its needed or we have a bunch on its way, but over the last few days some of the calls from yourselves have been a little on the late side limiting the options on en-route holding severely, especially for those that need to hold at fixes "off-route". We try to predict the situation but sometimes we just don't get the full picture, any ideas on how we can improve this?

Finally for the TC controllers, when you bring on the next inbound, how do you expect us to do this? Do you expect an immediate manouvre to get the a/c continued, or as the a/c has the EAT, do you not mind how much time we take to pull the a/c off and on into the TMA? Sometimes for us keeping it spinning can help out against the outbounds/other inbounds but I wondered if this compromised what plans the Co-ordinator had made?

I've copied this to the Questions forum just open it out into the Pilot 'massive' also.

[BOAC]

"For pilots, how much time do you need to enter the details into the FMS for a hold that isn't on the flightplan "

- 5miles - for any en-route hold, as much notice as possible please. We can (737) hold 'at present position' almost instantly, but if an arcane entry procedure/route is specified, we need a minute or so to enter it into the FMC, more-so when the points are RNAV waypoints rather than VOR specified. Even an 'unusual' hold on the arrival can cause a flurry, and when, as has happened in the London arrivals in my experience, the hold given is not on the chart/route we are using for the cleared arrival, there will be some frantic paper shuffling too! Don't forget that all changes to the FMC/Nav plan should ideally be 'run past' and accepted by the other crew. Any advance warning you can get from TC or from what you can see in the inner stack levels will help - eg 'expect to hold at Pompi', and if the hold is non-STAR based, some guidnace on how YOU want us to get there is useful, rather than our having to guess and finding out we are wrong!

"Also for the pilots, does it annoy you once we get you to enter an unusual hold (ie. off-route) and then cancel it just as you get there? It seems to be "Murphy's Law" that we always do this!"

- yes, but we are all big boys and girls and can live with it:D. Preparing for such an event will have caused quite a lot of acivity in terms of setting-up the hold, reviewing fuel/div options etc, talking to cabin/company/pax as appropriate, but it is always (normally) good news when it gets cancelled.

[TopBunk]

5mb

In modern a/c the FMS/FMGC database knows all waypoints and usually the published hold axis and direction.

Therefore, if you send us to somewhere off route (eg re-route us into LHR via BIG rather than LAM to balance the stacks) it only a matter of entering the new route - say 10 seconds or so.

To then have to hold somewhere short of the inner hold point (which into LHR I normally pre-programme!) it is just again of entering or selecting the waypoint, and selecting the database hold/modifying as needed for time outbound and getting colleague to crosscheck, of course!

Given 30 seconds notice of the hold it shouldn't be a problem, if you subsequently cancel the hold before the turn starts, again no problem, just select heading mode and then reprogramme the box.

HTH

[Northerner]

Hiya,

How long is a piece of string!!!!

When do I ask you to hold out?
Well, I try to guess what approach are doing with holds, numbers in the stacks etc, then I try to work out an order for the traffic from all different directions then I count to find out where it stops working. A good controller/co-ordinator should be doing that asap, but of course Murphy's Law says that you will be busy doing other things. Especially for the co-ordinator, who might be trying to keep on top of SE too, and to be honest, I suppose we are sometimes our worst enemies by not splitting either sectors or co-ordinator.

When we ask you to bring it on, we usually like it as soon as possible, because we are usually trying to keep the sequence happening. For instance, we will rarely hold Gatwick inbound that come through Midlands because it causes no end of trouble, and the holds are miles and miles away. We will vector and use GWC if necessary. But we try at all times to be fair to the planes and keep them in order. But we accept that it will cause issues for you too, and that you have to work out how to achieve what we ask, and to be honest, most co-ordinators would take this into account when we ask for the traffic to come on. Because we have to fit more than one stream of traffic together, the sooner the better.

I'll be interested in the Pilot responses to the holding out, and anyone else's views.

I will consider ways we can all get the full picture, however Liaison visits would definitely help, as I'm sure there are things we at TC could learn to help you guys too.

Cheers, and well done for asking.
N

"Keep smiling, it makes people wonder what you're up to..."

[Northerner]

Copied from ATC issues.....

Hiya,

How long is a piece of string!!!!

When do I ask you to hold out?
Well, I try to guess what approach are doing with holds, numbers in the stacks etc, then I try to work out an order for the traffic from all different directions then I count to find out where it stops working. A good controller/co-ordinator should be doing that asap, but of course Murphy's Law says that you will be busy doing other things. Especially for the co-ordinator, who might be trying to keep on top of SE too, and to be honest, I suppose we are sometimes our worst enemies by not splitting either sectors or co-ordinator.

When we ask you to bring it on, we usually like it as soon as possible, because we are usually trying to keep the sequence happening. For instance, we will rarely hold Gatwick inbound that come through Midlands because it causes no end of trouble, and the holds are miles and miles away. We will vector and use GWC if necessary. But we try at all times to be fair to the planes and keep them in order. But we accept that it will cause issues for you too, and that you have to work out how to achieve what we ask, and to be honest, most co-ordinators would take this into account when we ask for the traffic to come on. Because we have to fit more than one stream of traffic together, the sooner the better.

I'll be interested in the Pilot responses to the holding out, and anyone else's views.

I will consider ways we can all get the full picture, however Liaison visits would definitely help, as I'm sure there are things we at TC could learn to help you guys too.

Cheers, and well done for asking.
N

"Keep smiling, it makes people wonder what you're up to..."

[juliet]

dead simple to sort a hold out with the fms. takes 3 button presses for either a present postion hold or a hold on a waypoint that is already in the fms. if you want us to hold at a named point not in our route then its 3 presses again after you have entered the name of the point, ie type in LAM then enter the hold. if its a completely random point its no harder, ie LAM 300 radial at 10nm goes in as LAM/300/10. confirm that point then do your 3 button presses. what im getting at is its very simple and can be done in literally about 10 secs. best of all it gives us something different to play around with rather than sitting there marvelling at the autopilot:D

[Piltdown Man]

I'd like to be told (because of a Honeywell FMS) a minute or so before the previous waypoint because I can't mess about with the active waypoint. There are simple work-arounds, but I'm lazy!

[30W]

5Miles,

Really shouldn't take too long, as long as the holding out fix is within the current FMS route 'legs'. It helps significantly, if when instructed to hold out, you state the holding axis and turn direction when you give the initial instruction. You're validated on the airspace and know it backwards, we don't........

Northerner,

I must admit, I find TC sectors cross-coupled on FAR too many occasions. For me TC Midlands is a prime example, often even when busy. I know you're damn good at your work (I mean that), but what might give geta cause for pride in such a high workload and RT load really doesn't necessarily mean giving the best level of service. Please split the sectors earlier!!

As far as LACC is concerned, far to many times I find 25/26 crosscoupled when really it should be split. Again, please split it!!

30W

[Northerner]

30W,

point taken.

We try.

Just occasionally we don't have the staff, or have asked for the split and they are trying to find someone meaning it doesn't happen when it should.

And occasionally we get caught by surprise too.

However, as I said, point taken, and thanks for the compliment.

Cheers,
N

"Keep smiling, it makes people wonder what you're up to..."

[Giles Wembley-Hogg]

5milesbaby

I actually had to fly the scenario you are describing last year. I was coming in via AKIKI, so the route was ammended to KATHY-ELDER-OLGUD-TARAN-BEWLI.

Although in general holding anywhere is not a problem (as some people have pointed out on the other thread), arrivals via this route are faced with some extra difficulties. Firstly, there is no defined STAR this way, so we have to type in the waypoints individually as you rightly point out. Secondly, we are not familiar with the waypoints as we don't normally fly to them so OLGUD (in particular) proved a bit of a pain to get into the FMS as it took a while to translate the spoken word into a correctly spelt word. It would have been quicker if OLGUD had a real/more obviously derived name eg. HAZEL.

In themselves these problems are not too serious, but combined with instructions to slow down and stop descent and EATs being issued etc, things did start to get a bit busy. A rough guide to the key presses required:
O L G U D (line 1L) (EXEC)... T A R A N (line 2L) (EXEC)... B E W L I (line 3L) (EXEC) (HOLD) (line 3L) 0 8 5 L (EXEC). I suspect that there would then follow a discussion as to whether it was a 1.5 min hold at BEWLI or not. Don't forget our keyboard is not qwerty either!

To solve the problem completely, someone from Ops could assign a STAR designator to the route then you could save some RT and we would have the waypoints in the FMS, and in the short term an initial heading whilst we find some of these places would be great or even direct BEWLI (FMS equipped aircraft should stay within the protected holding area regardless of entry procedure).

Interestingly, these problems are not shared by CLN or DTY (or whatever number they are now) because the en-route holding occurs at places on the STARS. TopBunk's comment about the FMS knowing the published hold axis and direction doesn't apply to our 757/767s as it always defaults to RH holds and uses the course you are flying into the fix as the holding axis unless we change it.

... and I'm sure you issued an Onward Clearance Time didn't you??????!!!!! (MATS 1 Sec4 Ch2 P6). (I'm only teasing, but when we are given an EAT whilst we are holding en-route there is often a query as to whether this is from the inner hold or the present hold).

G W-H

[5milesbaby]

Thanks Giles and everyone else, hopefully the two threads will soon be merged so all responses can be seen together.

For future purposes, we are trying to get a hold established on route for the UN867 traffic via AKIKI about 15 miles before KATHY, but it will be used depending on the danger area activity we have under that route. We are also looking into ammending the STARs from the south so that when we need you via ORIST the appropriate routing will be given by Brest Control in the form of a STAR so again the finger tapping into the FMS will be cut out.

At Swanwick when we move you over to BEWLI we have to enter a Bewli Diversion to get the correct indications from the computer and electronic details to the relevent sectors, if we could say to yourselves BEWLI DIVERSION TO HOLD and have that procedure published then I can see how much time that could save and know that you have the full procedure entered. Indirect entries into BEWLI aren't good for us so a routing via TARAN is needed just so we know exactly when you are going to turn and can put you on headings appropriate to this against the departures routing out via GIBSO or get inbounds to other airfields that are not going to hold through your level.

Finally, ironically I was giving OCTs!!!! There always has to be a first, I was demonstrating to a student at the time :ok:

Keep the replies coming, everything so far will be taken to the working group and hopefully we'll get en-route holding "slightly" less complex.

5mb

[Giles Wembley-Hogg]

5milesbaby

I think that the new "OCK 1G"(?) arrival should reflect your input into it and include the waypoints PRUNE and FIVER (in your honour), unless of course you are an ATCO with a name that lends itself to waypoints...

This suggestion isn't entirely frivolous. Giving this route a STAR designator means that it will appear in the FMS in an easily recognisable form. Things like the RNAV transitions into Frankfurt and the Riviera arrival for Nice have strange titles that are not easy to find in the FMS unless you've been there before. By definition your new route will not be used very often, so it should have a name that will be easy to find, hence OCK 1G.

The waypoint names I chose are real words, so getting the spelling when the route is suddenly changed should be easy.

Only my thoughts. I am sure someone will be able to poke holes in them, but I think that they are worth considering, after all we need to cater for the average pilot, and I am particularly average!

All the best

G W-H

[250 kts]

How about DRINK-ADIET-PEPSI???? Now we are a commercial organisation we could start to have sponsored inbound routes that nobody would ever forget.;) ;)

[VectorLine]

or, probably best issued in a Scottish accent.....
STIKM - INTAE - BEWLI
:ok: