Club Membership Fees & the end of Glasgow Flying Club ? (Merged)

[slips84]

Am I liable for the actions of others?


Roll up, Roll up……the Circus is coming back to town. Or more accurately our Flying Clubs’ Annual General Meeting is just around the corner!

Historically, the club has found this event an ideal forum to existing members (who contribute obscene amounts to the organisation in the form of membership fees) to have their valuable input ridiculed and ignored – last years fairytale accounting was only slightly overshadowed by the previous years Chairman bursting into tears!

This years’ event is looking to be a thriller with the Club reduced to only 4 aircraft a third of last years fleet “missing presumed lost”.

Part of the reason for this will centre on the apparent disappearance of one of the Clubs members – whose membership was “terminated” without reason being given. This former member was not for giving away too much, but from what he did confirm there are 2 potentially serious situations as below:-

1 The Club is structured in a way that the Committee have full rights to terminate any membership without reason or explanation – their constitution! The member concerned has sought legal advice and I understand there is nothing he can do about it. THIS MEANS THAT ANY MEMBER OF THIS FLYING CLUB CAN AT ANY POINT BE THROWN OUT WITHOUT REASON.
2 This member also has a business which provided an aircraft to be used at the flying club. He would not comment on this apart from the fact the matter was unresolved and the Club would not discuss the matter. THIS WOULD SUGGEST THE CLUB IS IN FOR A REPEAT OF SEVERAL YEARS AGO WHICH COST THE MEMBERS TENS OF THOUSANDS OF POUNDS.

Is the structure of this club unique or should all club members (not just of flying clubs) seek clarification of terms of refund should ‘their face not fit’ to those empowered?

If I continue my membership is there a way I ensure I am not liable in the event of the club being sued for a situation I was not aware of or involved with

[Sensible]

Surely the way forward is to muster up support and get yourself elected onto the commitee - that way you can have some input into the running of the club. Similarly, members of the commitee who are not pulling the right way can be deselected.

I don't believe that members of a club can be liable for debts, acts or omissions of a club commitee. The same cannot be said of the chairman and directors of the club, but read the rules and constitution which should be available upon request.

[DubTrub]

Your club is probably "limited by guarantee" and the extent of your financial liability will usually be expressed in the Club's rules...commonly "5 shillings" or the modern equivalent.

If you are unhappy about the management, get on the comittee yourself and do something about it.

[slips84]

I have my reservations about trying to get onto the Committee.
I was unaware of this members eviction from the Club until last week - his membership was actually stopped almost 9 months ago!!!
I have spoke to another member who was aware of this and wrote to the club for an explanation - no reply was forthcoming.
While I do not know of other issues, the 'mushroom' running of the club (kept in the dark and fed a lot of sh..) could mean there are other potential issues waiting to be discovered.By joining the Committee which may be about to be sued would I not be opening the door to make myself liable?

[Mike Cross]

First step is to establish what the legal status of the club is.

If it is a limited company it will be registered at Companies House (http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk/).

Next step is to find out whether you are a shareholder of the club or simply a customer. If you have an AGM coming up it sounds as though you are a shareholder.

Assuming you are a shareholder the next part is to get a copy of the Memorandum and Articles of Association. You can get this from the Company Secretary or from Companies House. It will set out the objectives of the company and what it is permitted to do. It will probably permit the Directors to make up rules so you'll want a copy of them too.

It is probably a Company Limited by Guarantee. In a normal Limited Company the shareholders buy shares. If the company goes bust their loss is limited to the amount they paid for their shares. In a Company Limited by Guarantee you don't buy shares but you guarantee to stump up the money if the company fails. Your liability is limited to the amount of the guarantee (normally a very small amount).

It is up to the shareholders to decide what they want to do about the situation (that's what the AGM is for). If you all sit on your hands nothing will change.

Mike

[wbryce]

This flying club wouldn't happen to be based at a BAA airport? :E

If so, I started my training on the said aircraft and completed my training on the said aircraft after it moved away from the club in question.

The members and instructors where great, atmosphere was good, but it seemed the whole atmosphere was constantly shadowed by club politics.

[flystrathclyde]

Unless there is a remarkable coincidence, I understand this post to be about myself and my aircraft - now located at Cumbernauld.

I would appreciate a private message from SLIPS84. The situation should remain a private matter for the Club to deal with and inform its' membership. Contrary to the rumours I am hearing about myself I have no malice against the Club - I do expect to fly there again soon!

This situaton has went unnoticed for several months and I understand the Club is about to hold its' AGM. I would thank any members efforts at the AGM to identify the reasons behind the Committees' actions and hopefully provide a reason for them (I do not believe there is any valid reason - if there is why would it be kept a secret??!??!).

Regards

Allan

[slips84]

Flystrathclyde,

Got your P.M.!

Pprune enables the civilised among us to air our views anonamously - reducing the chances of the uncivilised empire builders like the Committee at our club taking decisions for their own interests - not those of the club! (Although you have been kicked out, until the committee confirm to the members why you should continue as a current member).

However, this original post was not intended to highlight your own situation.

The serious question raised here is that before I, or any other member, hand over £250+ to renew my membership, it is important that:-

1 It is clear whether this membership is valid for a year or if membership can be cancelled by the committee at anytime without reason or appeal.

2 The committee take full responsibility in the event of a legal case against the club. If this is not the case then it leaves the members open for their 'membership' to cost several hundred pounds more to compensate the incompetance and bloody mindedness of a committee hell bent on ruining the club rather than be outed for their own agenda.

PS
I will be more than disappointed if you do not turn up for the AGM - you could at least confirm the facts we are already aware of.

Best of luck


???

[flystrathclyde]

:yuk:

I am unsure if I should be going to the meeting - I have certainly not recieved an invite but there again not every entitled member has received one either ??? Perhaps they are not party members.

It may be my only chance to collect the money. Prehaps some of the members of the Club (it will be obvious the name of the Club) who read PPRUNE could indicate if a resolve may be reached if I attend the AGM.

Allan

[BAA EGPF]

Allan,
Many members are aware and concerned at the committee's actions and basic disregard of the club's constitution.

(By the way, are you aware that last years AGM was held unconstitutionally as there were less than the required numer of full members present!!! or at least not according to the written one lodged at companies house.)
:confused:

THE CLUB ARE NOW DEMANDING £250++++ FOR NEXT YEARS MEMBERSHIP - WITH NO GUARANTEE THAT THEY WON'T FIRE YOUR ARSE OUT THE DOOR THE FOLLOWING DAY JUST LIKE THEY DID TO YOU, WITHOUT REASON OR EXPLAINATION.:sad:

Hopefully the normally silient majority will appreciate that we are all in jeapardy from this committee and their cohorts and call for a full and truthful explaination for their bizzare actions at the AGM.

As a point of principal you are entitled to attend this years AGM as your name was entered in the minutes of last years AGM.:ok:

:mad: This support was not brought to you by THE TUESDAY CLUB

[JetGFC]

I have Just read this post by Alan, for what it's worth I am going along to the AGM to see what the comittee have to say for themselfs. :*

If I am not satisfied with what they have to say can kiss goodbye to my TWO HUNDRED & FIFTY QUID ++++ :ouch:

[JetGFC]

Possibly the most expensive membership in the UK.

I would Just like to ask, at £250+ is our club the most expensive in the uk? :confused:

[Say again s l o w l y]

£250!!! Do you get a butler?

[shortstripper]

Sorry Goodwood ... I take it all back!

Hells teeth ... that is expensive!, or is the flying free?

SS

[TheOddOne]

We're £150 pa with a PA28 dual rate of £99 inc VAT, but we're a self-help group with restricted membership, so we haven't the overheads of a commercial club. On the other hand, being small (about 30) we don't have the economies of scale, either.

The Odd One

[foxmoth]

at £250+ is our club the most expensive in the uk?

Do tell, which club?;)

[JetGFC]

Alas there is no butler and the flying is not free.Glasgow where else if the Tuesday Club find out who I am it will be chalks as dawn:{

[Mike Cross]

Spitfire Flying Club at Popham

£95.00 membership includes free landings in any aircraft, free entry to chargeable events and gratuitous critique of your landings.

http://www.popham-airfield.co.uk

Works for me!

[JetGFC]

Hi Mike

Thanks for you post, Popham is a bit far, I would have to get the shuttle so I could fly. I can however beat your landing fees we pay £22. If you are a student you pay a little less but you membership is more than £250+. Visitors are also not welcome their landing fees are £85, and the welcome in the club is always frosty. I better not give too much away or the Tuesday club will definitely hunt me down and kick me out (but it will however be after I pay up for next year).
:E

[DubTrub]

Mine's £195 p.a. Very worth while, because of the facilities (open daylight hours, even after licencing hours for non-licence-needing pilots, members get key access. Food & bar are available normal operating hours)

I guess it depends on what you think these things are worth.

[Mike Cross]

Ah!!!

For one moment I thought you meant it was the bar that was open "even after licencing hours":D

Mike

[Genghis the Engineer]

Surely for a private club there aren't any such thing as bar licencing hours?

G

[Flap40]

Drive up the road to Perth where it is £50

[englishal]

Last time I paid Bournemouth, it was £45 per year, rental was a reasonable wet rate, and landing / approaches were included!

Can't beat them since Cabair buggered off.......

[Yorks.ppl]

£108 flying membership at sherburn.
PA28 cadet £79 per hr. Warrior £82 per hr.
helpfull/friendly staff
Excelent value all round, very glad I moved there.

[Kolibear]

Cumbernauld seem to be getting a bit of a bashing recently, this is the third post in a week.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Koli, this thread isn't about Cumbernauld, rather about a club at a certain large airfield down the road.

[Captain101]

Check out the new club at Cardiff.
£300 for the first year + indemnity + airside pass about £360 total -ouch.

It does however drop to £100/yr after your first year.

[JetGFC]

From what I can gather about other Clubs and their facilities, we should be paying 10p and a packet of fags,:E , I don’t think a tatty old portacabin that smells of bad breath and feet really counts as facilities.

As for me giving Cumbernauld a hard time, as I am not a member of that club I wouldn’t know what is going on there and couldn’t possibly comment on their situation. We are 17 miles away ( a bit of Glasgow bashing is what I am doing :E )

[Flik Roll]

I pay a tenner.






















But then stick the membership fees on for a certain flying club that I have to pay as well :{

[MLS-12D]

I don't believe that members of a club can be liable for debts, acts or omissions of a club commitee. It depends on whether or not the club is incorporated.

In certain circumstances, a member of an uncorporated association can indeed be held personally liable for the liabilities of that association: which at common law has no legal existance apart from its members, and therefore can neither sue nor be sued in its own right. As such, an unincorporated club is merely an aggregate of individuals, with many characteristics of a business partnership.

In some jurisdictions (particularly individual American states), the common law principle has been modified by legislation intended to protect members of small clubs. To the best of my knowledge this is not currently the case in England and Wales, although I stand to be corrected.

[APRIANA]

I just go there to fly - ignore most of the folk, well at least those who talk drivel. With landing fees going up again and less aircraft, depending on the AGM, I may well take my business elsewhere.

There are so many hidden agendas at the club, folk trying to get you to side with them and under mind the abilities of other instructors.

If it is the case that members will be held financially liable due to the Committees mistakes I suggest you should just walk. Give no reason. It might give them a taste of what they are dishing out.

[APRIANA]

I didn't know Students received a cheaper landing rate if they paid a higher membership.

I thought they paid a cheaper membership but paid a higher a/c rental fee? Where as full members paid more membership and received cheaper a/c fees.

[Flik Roll]

Do you mean student as in student pilot or student as in Uni student?

Only student discount I have ever received was landing at Blackbushe and Lydd because I was under 18.

[APRIANA]

I mean student pilot.

[BeauMan]

I pay £60 a year membership at Mid Anglia, plus £25 contribution into the Prang Club to cover the insurance excess.

Landings at Cambridge are about £10 for a full stop, and my solo hour in the PA28 will set me back about £130 inc VAT.

I could probably fly slightly cheaper elsewhere, but the club is a friendly one, the aeroplanes are well looked after, and the, err, 'more mature' instructors are excellent.

Only thing Mid Anglia needs to make it a perfect club is a taildragger for me to play with. :}

[DK338]

My local Gliding Club charges..................£440 per annum, and it's a traditional self help set up with minimal overheads. If you own your own a/c you are allowed to store it, in it's trailer, for free. Woopdidoo!

[shortstripper]

Yes, but gliding clubs tend to actually be owned by their members, unlike flying clubs!

SS

[BAA EGPF]

Jet,

I fear that the proposed membership fee at GFC of £250 may in fact be cheap at the price.

In conclusion, (according to the committee) it is a privilege to fly from Glasgow International Airport, true but at what cost. As a member of GFC you are “One OF The Few), hundreds have come and gone before you. Voting with their feet they now populate other flying clubs, or gave up flying in despair.

Well Jet if don’t like what the committee and Tuesday Club are scheming behind closed doors then you can push off the same as the hoards before you or if you are bullet proof, full hardy or just feeling lucky you could always challenge their supreme authority. Well good luck at the AGM on Thursday, I fear however that nothing will change. “CLOP”


:ouch:

[APRIANA]

Maybe if he wants the a/c used more he could propose a package like, members guarantee, say 50hrs use per year they get the a/c for £75 / hr, rather than £98 / hr.

I doubt PIK has that much traffic to enable the Tommy any more hours down there.

[flystrathclyde]

Hi,

I have been monitoring this thread with interest - I think it is disgraceful that GFCs' laundry is being hung out in public (skid marks and all).

I appreciate the support given in this forum but I do not want associated with the politics.

However, anyone interested in G-BMKG can fly it from Cumbernauld. Please send me a private message for further info.

Allan

[EGCC4284]

Barton £240pa and free landings

[JetGFC]

I have been away for the last couple of days, I read the original un-censored post by BAA EGPF all I can say is hells bells the Tuesday clubs far reaching influence seems to have no boundaries (The truth hurts).:p

[BAA EGPF]

:mad: Good morning Glasgow (or should it be Vietnam)

Censored, well there’s a surprise – NOT.
Bunny in the headlights springs to mind.

RUN RABBIT,
RUN RABBIT,
RUN, RUN, RUN,
HERE COMES THE APPL,
HAVING FUN, FUN, FUN.

You can run, but you can’t hide
FIVE DAYS TO GO PEOPLE.
There’s lots and lots more dirty laundry,
So stay tuned, you simply won’t believe the cover ups.

:}

[slips84]

This thread is about the same club as the one mentioned in the above thread.

I think this will provide some confirmation of the bully antics of this organisation.

I don't think I will waste my time going to the AGM this Thursday - I have already decided not to gamble away my hard earned cash to an organisation out of control!

(Anyone with a type rating for this Club should check the POH for 'spiral dive recovery technique' - I think 'bailing out' is the recommendation)

[slips84]

This thread is about the same club as the one mentioned in the above thread.

I think this will provide some confirmation of the bully antics of this organisation.

I don't think I will waste my time going to the AGM this Thursday - I have already decided not to gamble away my hard earned cash to an organisation out of control!

(Anyone with a type rating for this Club should check the POH for 'spiral dive recovery technique' - I think 'bailing out' is the recommendation)

[JetGFC]

:E Well when I started this thread I didn't realise the can if worms I was opening. So BAA EGPF what more do you have tell us, go on.


Jet :cool:

[BAA EGPF]

I would just like to thank the GFC committee member who took the time and effort to contact me and express his point of view. While I appreciate the gesture, I must reaffirm my position that the club is bigger that any individual or cleek and action must be taken now to survive. Simply put “out with the old and in with the new” don’t be afraid to stand up to the bullies on Thursday night, they are small individuals that would rather destroy your club before seeing it a successful organisation (bizarre but true). If you are passionate about flying from Glasgow take control before it really is too late. Better we adapt and prosper than stagnate and die – it on the cards again* – wake up and smell the avgas.

*We’ve been here before, but there’s no white knight to rescue our bacon this time.

:hmm:

[BAA EGPF]

Well,

Tuesday has arrived and the decisions on how the Club will be run(down) this year will be finalised tonight.

I wonder how any Members will turn up on Thursday for the 'official (my arse) AGM' when the Tuesday Clubs decision will be made public!!!


GFC

R.I.P


:{

[slips84]

Went to AGM.

Lies, scapegoat, smoke & mirrors, more lies ....

Obvious some of the members are voting with there feet.

Membership fees rising fast
Landing fees rising fast

Members decending fast
Aircraft decending fast

WATCH THIS SPACE.



:yuk:

[BAA EGPF]

Hate to say I told you so, same old lies and deceit from the committee AKA The Tuesday Club LAKIES. As for all the legal jargon by one member, well I ask you ?

How many times does the guy from Cumbernauld have to send the club the relative information, once, twice, thrice or hundreds of times. My god the girl in the office has signed, confirming receipt of the relative paperwork – again and again. Honestly the committee must take us for a bunch of idiots. Well I suppose if we stump up our membership and re-join who can blame them.

What are our options :
1 - Go voluntarily for FREE and join another club (Prestwick, Cumbernauld even Perth). They are all less expensive and boast the nice people who left Glasgow before you. It’s the smart move, vote with your feet.
2 – Stay, pay the most expensive membership in Scotland and hope you don’t get thrown out for some trumped up misdemeanour (trust me, you will not be given the reason anyway). Once they have your money that’s all that counts.
3 – Stay, pay your membership and side with the bullies and hope they don’t turn on you – remember Neville Chamberlain.

Did anyone else notice that several members were conspicuous by their absence, do you think they have given up in despair (option 1 perhaps), after last nights fiasco who could blame anyone for voting with their feet.

If GFC are to be sued and loose again will it cost the membership another £35000.00,
Who knows??? “Who cares” says the committee – (they pick the fights and we the membership pay for their belligerence).

It’s tough being a member of GFC, but someone has to do it - NOT

:*

[PH-UKU]

SLIPS 84 - if you were indeed at the meeting and felt SO strongly then why did you remain SO silent, or why did you not get off your bum and stand for election? Very easy to carp from the sidelines when you may only have half a story. 80% of committee time in recent years has been taken up dealing with politics, local egos and people trying to run clubs within clubs, despite being warned about it - it happened 10 years ago and nearly killed the club then - so it would be foolish for any committee to allow that situation to develop. Some of us just want to fly and want the committee to be allowed to plan the kind of stuff that goes on at other clubs. Snot easy - I know - I've been there, (and I've given (and received) my own fair share of criticism - but we all have only a limited amount of patience and energy. So draw a line, and move on - life is too short.

FACTS -
membership fees same as last year
landing fees up - due to BAA indifference and ignorance
aircraft numbers - hopefully soon to rise
membership numbers - better than 3, 4 ,or 5 years ago with higher %age of members rejoining than in previous years


BAA EGPF - I would be careful of using a name like that ... . those in the know ...... know they are no friend of GA ..... anywhere. ;)

Oh, hold on ... I know where you're both coming from ...........;) (http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/tv/chewinthefat/media/download_sounds/mrs_olfactory.wav)

[BAA EGPF]

Hello Good Evening and Welcome, Lakies and PH-UKU too.
Dream on, join the committee, are you crazy?
We the silent majority want to be part of a club that treats it membership with honesty and respect – it’s a goal .
This forum lets you know exactly what we think of your activities without running the risk of ejection or worse. If you don’t like bad press, try being decent and honest for a change. You could start by sorting out the Cumbernauld chap’s grievance before you drop us in the SH—again.
If you think that sacrificing of one of your own (A DIRECTOR) to manipulate the AGM went unnoticed, think again chum.
Membership numbers – etc, etc, etc fantasy ???????????
Still………….it’s good that you plucked up enough courage to respond – better late than never eh !
Moving on is something which GFC has never been good at, but it’s a new committee and a new year, well its another year anyway – how can things possibly go wrong- just wait and see – your good at that.
We’ll be keeping a close eye on you – know what I mean ?
P.S
Read your email yet -- it’s a cracker
:ok:

[JetGFC]

:confused:

Having read the treat, which was quite, clearly produced by the committee/Tuesday club. I have to just say propaganda only works when your intended pray has little or know knowledge of the subject matter, eh who of us can’t count up to four or is it three aeroplanes (how many were parked there last year 6 oh that’s right) as for the members have you looked at the members book recently and I thought the committee had stopped that bad practice of counting it twice, thinking you have double and spending accordingly. :E

I thought I would also mention the meaning of the word club [a group of people organized for a common purpose, especially a group that meets regularly]:8

Well whoever wrote this definition, hadn’t read Animal Farm and wasn’t in the company of the pigs.

I have only this parting shot contrary to your simplistic viewpoint it’s a well-known fact that your enemy is of most danger to you when he is silent.:}

Wake up and smell the Av-gas
:ok:

[slips84]

FLYSTRATHCLYDE,

I (along with the the other club members AND COMMITTEE) got your recent email - a couple of question come to mind! Why has there been no response from the Committee to the membership - or has there? (I would expect you after opening the information to the members to let them know if the matter is resolved)

If the facts in your email to all members are not ENTIRELY ACCURATE then why has there been no response from the Committee clarifying THE FACTS as they can prove. You also put yourself in a peculiar position IF you are FALSELY claiming the club has signed for documents as per your email.

However, if the facts in your email are ACCURATE then why are you holding back about doing something about it! My lawyer friend assures me the facts quoted are indefensible by a club! If you do have documents signed for as you state in your email the next sentence is already answered!

SOMEONE IS TELLING LIES TO THE ENTIRE MEMBERSHIP - EITHER YOU OR THE COMMITTEE. This does Glasgow Flying Club no good at all.

It's about time this was brought to a head - and a close. Would the REAL SLIME SHADY please stand up?

P.S. Check your PM's

:*

[ariel]

Come to us then! (at Welshpool)

We don't charge membership fees. Obviously, to fly or receive instruction from us, you have to join our club, but we will not charge you for the privilege.

ariel

[flystrathclyde]

SOMEONE IS TELLING LIES TO THE ENTIRE MEMBERSHIP - EITHER YOU OR THE COMMITTEE.

Slips84,

I can confirm I am not telling lies - I can answer any questions with a clear mind with evidence to show.

2+2=?

[BAA EGPF]

I've just heard that yet another GFC aircraft has relocated to Cumbernauld - Is this a case of the rats leaving the sinking ship and one could speculate, are they just one step ahead of the baillifs.

Lets hope this doesn't signal the END of club flying at Glasgow.

:{

[wbryce]

what aircraft?

Could you be referring to the arrow which left GFC late 2004 early 2005?

[KCDW]

Totally appalled at some of the fees mentioned. Some clubs seem to be taking advantage.

FYI

Weald Air Services, Headcorn: £75 pa and no landing fees.
Tiger Club, Headcorn: £120 pa.

KC

[slips84]

I hear another 4 seater is about to arrive at Leading Edge flying club at Cumbernauld Airport - is this yet another ex Glasgow Flying Club aircraft migrating??????

[volvodriver]

Just arrived in Glasgow this evening courtesy of BA and recalled this thread from some time ago.

Spotted 5 airplanes sitting on GA park - Area W according to plan - including G-DRAM. Last time I seen that airplane was on a trip north a few years ago to Loch Earn. She was on floats then. No floats this time - what's the story. I've always wanted to fly floats but never quite managed the time to do it.