Examples of backup ATC systems please

[themoffster]

Sorry for the pompus title, but I tried to make it as suscinct as possible.
I am currently writing up some coursework at uni, and I am mentioning backup systems. Could you be so kind as to give me a short (I have about one powerpoint slide to work with) synopsis of which systems have backups?

Cheers!

[BDiONU]

Uuumm, can you define what you mean by a back up? Do you mean power or primary & secondary systems etc?

BD

[themoffster]

Basically, I am writin gsomething on safety critical systems.
What I mean by backup is something which is in place should the 'normal working one' fail.

I know you have primary and secondary radar, but I was looking for other examples.
Perhaps a way to talk to aircraft if the transmitter fails (secondary backup transmitter that doesn't get used etc.)

Sorry if it is not clear - it's approaching finals time and my head's in a mess!

[BALIX]

Thermo

All our safety critical systems have some form of back-up or redundancy - or so we are told! There are normally two radar heads at a radar site, the signal travels via two separate lines to wherever the radar displays are and I'm sure that an engineer will tell you that other safeguards are in place. Doesn't necessarily mean that a certain radar won't fail but it reduces the odds. Also you could say that overlapping radar coverage is some sort of back-up

As for radio transmissions, each frequency is served by two (or three) distinct transmitters and we (at ScACC) have two back-ups that the controller can have immediate access to. One bypasses a lot of the electronics in the building but uses the normal transmitters whilst the other provides a direct telephone link to separate transmitters just in case the usual two have failed.

[arthur j negus esq]

Be careful when you say primary and secondary radar. In ATC terms primary radar means a radar return using reflected radio waves, ie bounced off aircraft, then shows on radar display. This can also show up weather clutter and other large objects.

Secondary radar is where a ground station interogates an aircrafts transponder and displays its info, Mode A, shows squawk set, mode C gives a level readout.

[Jerricho]

Perhaps a way to talk to aircraft if the transmitter fails

Winnipeg Terminal has a Radio Shack transmitter sitting on the supervisors desk. A couple of months ago when the whole centre went black, it came in very, very useful.

[rickity]

ATC systems basically have 2 of everything, from radio systems and radar systems to flight data processing systems, flow managment systems, data communication systems and power supply systems, with centres having 2 connections to the national grid and backup battery supplies. What is usually of great concern is common point of failure, the one point in the system that will render it useless. this sometimes gets very difficult as a in older equipment rooms, air conditioning or the odd water pipe that can spray both systems and have a disasterous effect. Hence newer centres have 2 equipment rooms with fire walls etc between them.

Computer systems generally have 2 servers, disk sets, data links etc, the number of clients on a system can be rationalised or switched between either system, on a bad day only half the clients should be lost and ATC may have some problems but at least they have some functionallity,

The only real common point is sometimes the software, if the same bad data is passed to either servers and causes software problems, which has been known to happen, then we really have a problem, there is currently no way we can develop independant software for duplicated hardware. but we do have systems for trapping bad data, or at least 2.

More on the safety critical side is actually knowing the equipment is doing what its supposed to be doing. Think about an ILS being in error , its actully better off being switched off. Care is taken to ensure what is recieved is what was actually sent, and not slightly different.

Good luck

Rick

[RAC/OPS]

Our tower has two power points. One for the radar and one for the vacuum cleaner

[iss7002]

The Eurocat2000 system which is used here (Australia) has the normal multi head processing and dual redundancy main computers etc. In addition each console has a PC driven system (Ultimate Fallback Display) that by passes the main Lans and provides very basicc SSR derived position and labelling with a small ammount of FDR information. It is available only on the secondary display units and is physically switched at the console by the controller. It is severely limited in use and capability and would be used only in a short term disaster recovery situation.

[surface wind]

Primary System - The Toaster
Back-UP - The Grill in the Oven

SW

Sorry :}

[DirtyPierre]

iss7002,

you forgot to mention that if the UFB fails, then the backup is the spanners and ruler, chinagraph pencil, chart, and the book of lat seps. ARRGGGH procedural control!!!!

[themoffster]

Thanks fellas, that's smashing!
Surface wind even brought a ile to my face there - no easy task!

[Jerricho]

procedural control!!!!

Come on DP, who you kidding?

When was the last time you controlled procedurally/ ;) ;)

[White Hart]

themoffster

I'm surprised nobody has enlightened you to the marvellous backup procedures linked to our EFPS system currently up and running (and falling over! :p ) at EGSS - soon to be repeated at EGKK and EGLL.

I would tell you myself, except I am told that EFPS never fails, and doesn't need a backup.

So what DID happen at EGSS today?

[arthur j negus esq]

Now, Now White Hart. Of course EFPS did not fail. Remember what the management told us IT CANNOT FAIL!!!!

[NATCA BNA]

Thermo,

The backup systems vary from facility to facility depending on how new the equipment is.

For example where I work we have a new system called STARS, which has a backup radar processor that we can select should the primary one fail, plus we can pull radar informaiton from various radar sites should our primary radar site encounter a problem.

Mike
NATCA BNA

[hooplaa]

Ref the live test scenario presented as an opportunity to test and assess the professionalism of the highly skilled employees of NATS as demonstrated by their response in initiating the back up plan to an EFPS system failure....pheww

(long words for Fri EFPS problem)

.....see NATS site, page 7

:hmm:

[DirtyPierre]

jerricho,

Every departure out of Coffs Harbour.

CH: (Ding!) Next Virgin 317
GRN: Ahhh ****, Maintain A090 and ammended radial 090
CH: Is that the best you can do?
GRN: Arrh, we could go ammended radial 360 and F120??
CH: How about coastal 1nm over water visual until I've got them past?
GRN: Ahhh. Okay, coastal over water at least 1nm visual and let me know when they're past.

Just joshing about the coord, but we have a procedural tower that we do use procedural standards with.

Now what do we need for the 2 minute time departure standard????

[Jerricho]

Is that the best you can do?

Hence my question......when was the last time you used procedural CONTROL ;) ;)

[separator]

Whilst attempting to perform the duties of FLOW I would always rely on using my fingernail dipped in my own blood if the red pen ran dry.

Some exponents of the black art carried a spare whizz wheel on their person so as to allow the first one to cool down and stop smoking when it was busy.

sep

[Maaate]

Sep,

Of course , the flow could always rely on the 'cardboard Bandeirante' to be wheeled out, thus filling any embarassing gaps in the sequence.

PS: Isn't a flow just a large drip?

[DirtyPierre]

when was the last time you used procedural CONTROL
Okay, okay!

February 2000. Kimberley sector, Tops Group. TCTA/OCA, no radar for an airspace that would swallow up the UK about 20 times, with 10 min longitiudinal routes and a boundary that abutted Melbourne FDRG, Jakarta, and Bali. Half the airspace I had VHF comms, the other half was OCA with HF (third party provided by Ausfic) or CPDLC.

Satisfied??

I don't miss the Tops doggos.

[Jerricho]

There ya go............wasn't had now.

[Scott Voigt]

Let's see, last time I used procedural control was last Tuesday when the radar was out <sigh>...

regards

Scott