Expidite through which level?

[unwiseowl]

Question for radar controllers:

When you say, "expedite through FL150" do you mean the traffic's at FL150, or do you mean that FL150 is the level which will achieve separation?

(sorry if this has been asked before)

[Lock n' Load]

When I use it, it means the level which will give me separation. Can't speak for everyone though.

[Jerricho]

With Lock 'n Load with this one.

If asking for an expidite through an altitude/level, that will be the separated altitude from the traffic/airspace etc I am trying to separate you from.

[DtyCln]

Agree with previous

If given "expedite climb until passing FL150" traffic is generally at FL140 or below.

Have been caught out before when I gave the expedite level as the same level as the confliction, and the aircraft, Airbus A321, reduced climb to 200fpm after the expedite and nearly caught me out.

Yes I know UK AIP states minumum climb in UK is 500fpm, most pilots don't notify ATC if unable however.

Cheers

[Evil J]

Agree also, if I say expedite through 50 I mean just that! Once you are passed 50 you can go back to normal

[BALIX]

Did exactly the same as DtyCln a number of years ago. The aircraft (an MD80) duly expedited to the level I'd specified and then basically stopped climbing when it traded climb rate for forward speed. Just about got away with it but the old sphincter was beginning to flutter.

It is fair to say I learned about ATCOing from that and always specify a level above the conflict. Sometimes several levels above the conflict...

[EmergingCyclogenesis]

Here's one for the pilots then. If I asked you to expedite, what sort of climb rate could you expect to achieve in say a 737 or 757 at levels between FL 100 and FL300?

[Capt Pit Bull]

If I asked you to expedite, what sort of climb rate could you expect to achieve in say a 737 or 757 at levels between FL 100 and FL300?

How long is a piece of string. Depends hugely on the flavour of 737, the loading, the speed we had at the start, and finally any wind gradients.

Anything between about 1,500 and 6-7000 fpm.

I fly 300,400 and 500.

Lightly loaded 300 at one extreme versus full -500 at the other. Add an unfavourable wind gradient and the latter may struggle even more.

CPB

[EmergingCyclogenesis]

Pit Bull,

Thanks for that. It is a pertinent question although it might not seem so at the moment, I am interested in the upper figure of course.

Thanks for your reply

[DirtyPierre]

I remember something about "expedite" in another thread.

The use of expedite is not great technique for a controller. Should really be giving a requirement to be at a level by something. Or at best something like, due traffic at F140 request best rate of climb through F150.

Many a controller come unstuck saying expedite, then it all goes bad.

[Barry Cuda]

The use of expedite should never be your primary source of separation, but when it is used with discrete headings it can make the job an awful lot easier...

[Talla Radar]

"Expedite through" is not CAP413 phraseology (in the UK). The correct instruction is "Expedite until passing". If ATCOs would stick to standard phraseology then they would avoid these sort of ambiguities.

I only use an expedite climb or descent for about 5000ft in "normal" operations. Some controllers use expedite for 10000+ feet, just so they don't have to vector traffic!

[unwiseowl]

Very interesting, thanks. Do you guys know that most HGV a/c types have to trade R.O.C. against speed to expidite; there's not usually any more power available.

[av8boy]

The use of expedite is not great technique for a controller.
Agreed. That's why I like to use "Gimme a good rate through..." or "climb like a banshee through..." or something else of that sort. That is what you meant, right?

:D

standard warning: Americans DO utilize irony from time to time...

[Vampy]

Or at best something like, due traffic at F140 request best rate of climb through F150

But what does best rate rate mean? It's not inconceivable for pilots to hear that and then climb at the rate that is best for that aircraft in terms of fuel consumption etc etc. When training at the college I was taught this by someone who had come from TC who was caught out by saying 'best rate' to an A340 out of egll. Result? Climbed like a brick because that was the best rate in terms of economy of for the aircraft. Expedite means just that. Expedite. ie Get your ass in gear! Furthermore, using the term 'request' would be a big no-no for me. You requesting it doesn't mean the pilot has to comply. What happens if he says no? :p :ok:

[Cartman's Twin]

Hello Folks.

Agree with the initial posters - when I say expedite through FLXXX, that's the 'safe' level. I'm not suggesting it was unsafe beforehand but certainly within TC that's the level you have to pass before we can point you in the direction you actaully want to fly in!

I most disagree most vehemently that it is 'poor' technique. Absolute rubbish. Within the London TMA if you didn't utilise the a/c abilities, and the pilot's of course, NOTHING would move. Occasional, and appropriate use of expedite helps ALL concerned. Bad technique? - Not in my considered.....

I would never put it as a request either. Puts variables into the instruction, if the pilot is unable to expediate - eg an A343 (I love you really guys.....) then firstly I wouldn't have asked at all, but I'd expect the pilot to say if they couldn't.

Referring to precise phraseology. Although the CAP phrase is 'expediate until passing', I'd say 90+% of controllers I work with say "expediate through". I find this causes far fewer misunderstandings with foreign pilots, and saves 2 seconds per pair of instruction. Multiply that by the 40 departures per hour and I've even got time for me crossword!!!!!


Safe day to you all - I'm going to lay in the sun!!

[Ziggy]

I as a pilot see my colleagues utilise different ways af complying with the instruction to expidite. The one pilot increases his rate of climb with e.g. 1000 fpm thus only trading in speed at a slow rate. The next pilot selects MAX rate climb speed (not BEST rate) and his speeds drops quickly while increasing ROC with 3000fpm or more (and maybe 1000fpm was enough to do the job).
English is not my first language, but if I can trust my dictionary the word expedite means something like 'speed up' and not 'speed up as much as possible'. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but if I'm right the term 'expedite' is far from unambiguous.

I understand just saying expedite makes life a lot easier for controllers but wouldn't it be better practise to instruct to 'climb with minimum 2000fpm' or 'be level in 3 minutes'.

Greetings Z.

[DirtyPierre]

Within the London TMA if you didn't utilise the a/c abilities, and the pilot's of course, NOTHING would move.
I'll have to take your word for that, never having been to LTCC, but I've met Paul Upton from there, so he can tell you what our centre looks like.

It is considered poor technique in Oz. Even by our busiest controllers in TMA. As for best rate meaning anything other than climb like a banshee (or a fart in a bath), well I don't know what pilot would think that best rate means for economy especially when you say "due traffic".

BTW, didn't we have this"expedite" argument in another thread?

[Scott Voigt]

Dirty'

We use it as a tool here all the time. Its for when you want a pilot to not start to slow the climb at all and keep it going up so that you can get above someone that is either climbing behind them or even that is in front of them, and then go on to other trafffic. The reevaluate later to see how it is all coming out. If his expedite isn't anything different, then you cap the climb and go from there. It is more of a try to get the pilot to his/her requested altitude for traffic that you see either coming up or for something that isn't working the way that you would like, but you don't have to take immediate action with. Also no brain power to start figuring out rates of climb and time to closure etc...

regards

Scott

[Bigmouth]

We're always expediting our climb. The whole point is to get to altitude as fast possible to take advantage of favorable winds, higher true airspeed and most of all lower fuelburn. Even with a max derate t.o., climb thrust will be back at max in the teens somewhere.
To expedite, trading speed for altitude is necessary (a zoom climb) and that only works for 2-5000' depending on initial speed. Once the speed is bled off, climb is going to be a lot less then it was initially, even without accelerating.

[Scott Voigt]

hi Bigmouth;

We have found BIG differences in climb and such between aircraft, especially the RJ's. There is max econ climb, and then a regular climb, and then the one where they are barely climbing on the last leg of the day where they are going as fast as they can <G>... Depends on who is flying the aircraft and how they feel about flying it on that leg...

regards

Scott

[DirtyPierre]

Scott,

Hi, glad you joined in the discussion. Yeah we don't have the traffic levels you have in the States, so I could understand you might use it to express some urgency to the PICs. I just don't think it's a very good technique.

From my experience there are a number of aircraft types that always climb at best rate. For instance, the Brasilia, flown in Oz for some time, always climbs at it's best rate. Ask it to expedite, and nothing changes. The DASH 8 is often quite similar depending on the model and the company that operates it. So you can't rely on "expedite" to speed an aircrafts rate of climb.

Catchyalater
DP

[Scott Voigt]

Hi Dirty;

Wish that I could have made it to IFATCA to come and watch how y'all do it down under <G>... If you are ever our my way, give me a call. If you give me a couple of months notice, and they don't change the security stuff, I might even be able to get you in the facility <G>...

Take care

Scott

[One Step Beyond]

What do you controllers expect on asking a 146 to expedite climb? Is it a) try to at least climb like everyone else does when climbing normally or b) really expedite?
Because, if a) we might be able for a couple of thousand feet but speed will fall to about 210kts but if b) not possible.

[Cartman's Twin]

Hiya OSB.

We always (should) know your a/c type and have a fair idea of the likely a/c performance. Speaking from a TMA environment up to around FL100 I'd anticipate 1-2000 ft/min from a 146, and if asked to expedite around 2.5-3000 ft/min.

We're aware that you're not going to accelerate past Mach 1, (or even 0.1..) and it's not usually a problem. What that does give you 146 sorts though is a good ROC/mile which gives us other options to offer early climb.

[ukatco_535]

I thought the phraseology was

'throw away the manual and fly it like a man'

or if you really want a good rate

'climb like your life depends on it'

No wonder my annual assessment is pants.