Too Fat to Fit?

[J.A.F.O.]

Just wondering, do you have a rule of thumb for how much weight you put in your aircraft?

I know they're all different and the POH should be checked and the W&B calculated but I was just wondering what different types could carry with full fuel and do you have a number in your head when your 15 stone mate wants to fly with you and you decide whether to book the club 150 or the 172?

I'm sure that you get the idea and it would be interesting to see the answers with all of the different types flown (fixed and rotary) by those on this forum.

[Genghis the Engineer]

As a general rule of thumb, with adults in a light (or microlight) aircraft, it's full fuel and one empty seat, or full seats and an hours fuel.

Doesn't always work (older microlights, for example, tend to be a lot better - whilst 4 adults and an hours fuel in a PA28-140 may be pushing you luck), but it's generally not far out.

G

[Halfbaked_Boy]

Ghengis, is that an hour's fuel in the tanks, or an hour below maximum cap.? An hour's worth doesn't seem a lot, particularly in something such as an Arrow, even with four seats occupied...?

Cheers, Jack.

[Whirlybird]

R22 - full fuel plus 24 stone of people/luggage.

C150 about the same.

This is a ROUGH guide only!

[benhurr]

Anyone over 6'2" is likely to interfere with the controls of a C150/152.

15/16 stone is likely to result in a rather tight fit.

Sometimes practicalities can overide the actual M&B calculations...

[Aussie Andy]

Well I am pretty big - 18st of man, but good looking with it ;) My rules therefore need to be different to other people's!!

Essentially I don't fly two-seaters (sounds like the R22 is definitely a non-starter - shame as a mate at work witha PPL(A) has just started lessons in an R22 for the PPL(H) - I will tell him to convert to R44 ASAP!)...

I tend to look on "garden variety" 4-seaters (e.g. PA28-151 or PA28-161) as really a decent two-seater for me and a mate and liferaft and luggage and TABS fuel, without needing to make any calculations. I also know from experience that me + wife (much slimmer than me!) + twin 11yr old girls + TABS fuel works as well.

FOR ANY OTHER COMBINATION I GET THE W&B SPREADSHEET OUT! I am sure everyone by now has these in Excel format for their favourite aircraft, so it only takes seconds (I think the last time I did it by hand was when renting in the US, having left the laptop behind!)...

I guess that's why for longer trips / more people and luggage I am really such a big fan of the P28B Dakota (in particular, G-ODAK at BA/Wycombe) because it not only flies faster (135kts@65%) to get you there quicker, but also carries bigger loads: we have had 4x big blokes and luggage and full tanks for cross-channel trips (all checked on the spreadsheet of course!).

In short, do the calculations for what is typical for you and your friends and the aircraft you typically fly would be my advice before using anyone else's rules of thumb as they may not appply to you - and the consequences of being overweight (especially on the relatively short vs. US strips we have here) or out of balance might be dangerous, and risks invalidating your insurance.

Andy :ok:

[Stevemcmli]

I boast a similar AUW to Aussie Andy, 6'2" 17st. I have mostly flown or flown in four seaters of various types. I have managed to cram myself into a Beagle Terrier, a PA-38 Tomahawk and even the back seat of a Beagle Airedale (giving my age away here!)

What's the general rule for microlights? Are there any that can manage two up - well built 6 footers - or these the domain of our slimmer bretheren?

[pbloore]

I used to have a small card with a few of the extreeme wight and balance conditions on it, but I've now gone ove to using a spreadsheet but on a Palm PDA. This means I can calculate accurately in 30 seconds before any flight. For good measure I've also added in calculations for take off, landing distances, wind components, speeds etc.

[Whirlybird]

There are definite advantages in GA to being small...despite needing a collection of cushions to reach pedals, see over cowling etc. I occasionally get to fly in the R22 with large students who can't fly with anyone else, or they'd only be able to take about a teaspoonful of fuel! A female friend and I manage to tour on the continent in a C150...but only because I'm on a constant diet; I must be the only woman in the world who wants to lose more weight so that she can carry more fuel in her aircraft. :) There was even a job going flying R22s in Florida, the only requirement being that you had to be under 140 lbs. It was carrying photographers and equipment around; they couldn't waste the weight requirement on mere pilots. Must admit, I was sorely tempted.....

[Kolibear]

Our rule of thumb is:- MTOW= 2 people+luggage+full tanks OR 3 people+full tanks or 4 people + 1/2 tanks.

Its a rule of thumb based on calculations but assumes an adult weighs 12st.

In a C152, 2 adults and full tanks probably takes the a/c over MTOW.

[skydriller]

In a C152, 2 adults and full tanks probably takes the a/c over MTOW.

The last time I went to fly a C152 in the US, I was placed with a lovely petite female instructor for the checkout and was told that this was because two big blokes my size (6ft3in, 93Kgs) and full fuel would indeed put the wee cessna out of W&B....

.....There are advantages to being a big lad afterall...:E :p

Regards, SD..

[GroundBound]

During my training I flew the PA28 Archer, with me + 1 large instructor and full tanks. This was considered perfectly normal. No-one checked the W&B (only 2-up, of course).

However, when I later made up a W&B spreadsheet I discovered that combination (he was a BIG guy) put us outside the balance limits, and we actually needed about 40kg of ballast in the luggage area to bring us within limits! Didn't stop the aircraft flying though.

On another occasion an instructor organised a day out in a PA28 with 3 qualified pilots, one leg each (one flying leg, not one-legged pilots, silly), as a confidence building exercise. We used full fuel on two of the legs. No-one did a W&B. I was surprised we used full fuel because I would have expected it to be over the weight limit. The instructor didn't seem to care about it (or more probably, had flown such a combination many times before and had no concerns about it). I later did a W&B, and yes, we were probably over weight (didn;t have everyone's weight to check properly). However, with adequately long runways (> 1000m) at each stop-over, there were no problems.

What suprised me, on both occasions, was the "disinterest" of the instructor to the W&B. Obviously they applied their "experience" to the situation.

GB.

[B9]

I appreciate that aircraft have different weights for similar models but let's take an 'average' 150/152 with reasonable avionics fit and the sort of weight increase that comes with time, say:

1150 lbs

Add full fuel at: 160 lbs

MAUW: 1600 lbs

This leaves: 290 lbs

Allow: 10 lbs for headsets/clothing etc

Leaves room for 280 pounds of crew (10 stone each!)

I would suggest that many 150/152 training sorties are flown with the aircraft above MAUW.

[DBChopper]

I', 6'4" and around 14.5 stone, and most of the guys I work with are a similar size. It is quite snug in the R22 and we are limited to half tanks to be within limits, and get off the ground! I tend to wear the '22 rather than sit in it - it's snug but manageable.

I tried out some W&B calculations with my instructor while converting to the much-more-comfortable R44 and discovered that with four of us all the same weight as me on board, we would have a flying time of around 40mins plus a 30min reserve!

I think I need some smaller friends...

:ok:

[airborne_artist]

Last medical I had I was told to eat more and put on some weight - seems the urine test showed I'm quite often burning muscle, as I have no, absolutely no, fat - I'm 6.0" and 11st 10lb. So far I've managed to put on 4lbs, by eating four bananas a day over my usual!

[shortstripper]

I'm one of those lucky buggers who can eat what he likes and not put on "too" much weight. Age is catching up though and I don't burn it quite as well as I did. Still, at 5'5" I'd have to be a real porker to seriously upset W&B on most types, so as far sa flying is concerned being a short ar$e isn't a bad thing :)

SS

[Penguina]

Whirly

I must be the only woman in the world who wants to lose more weight so that she can carry more fuel in her aircraft

Afraid not! ;) Getting your passengers to lose weight is the hard bit, though!

[Cat.S]

I've put enough weight on so I can't fly a PA38 with a passenger aboard, unless they weigh lessthan 38lbs, unless I only have an hour's fuel! Being tall and heavy is a bummer when it comes to GA. The club only has one PA28-161, so weather/availability of this has become a major problem.

[greeners]

Agree that many FIs take this for granted, basing operations around what they know the aircraft can manage rather than formally calculate the W&B.

In fact, I know of a chap who didn't calculate the W&B on his PA38 until the day of his FI checkride - and found that, at tabs, he and the examiner were going to be outside limits!:O Fortunately, the examiner applied his experience as well....

[Freebird17]

I was shocked when I calculated that my C152 couldn't carry me (a relatively light 9.5 stone) and my hefty bloke friend without sacrificing some fuel.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

A year or so ago I worked out what losing 5 kilos would mean in extra fuel two-up in a 152, so I lost 5 kilos.

Then the club sold the 152s and replaced then with 172s ... which can take three adults and full tanks no problem, hence my incentive disappears and the next 5 kilos don't seem to be disappearing as I'd hoped ...

(In theory the election campaign helps - I'll walk more in a month than in the rest of the year put together - but in practice the extra exercise is outweighed by the extra curry (due to spending the evenings on the streets rather than cooking healthy food) and beer (due to all those, er, "campaign strategy meetings").)

[Flik Roll]

I nearly have to fly with a ballast being 60kgs ;) Rollers/T&G's are fun on my own :E

[Rans Flyer]

My Rans S6 has a 430kg limit. This means I can carry 31stone with full fuel.

Not bad for a Microlight. :D

Les.


G-MYGH
www.flightforlife.co.uk

[shortstripper]

My Rans S6 has a 430kg limit. This means I can carry 31stone with full fuel.


Blimey! That seems a lot? What's it's empty weight then?

SS

[J.A.F.O.]

RF

Wow - Perhaps not everyone's cup of tea but I like it. I saw one at Fly! in 2004 and liked the look of it - might have to get myself one.

[ShyTorque]

This should be obvious, but anyone need one really good additional reason to ensure the aircraft is always flown within its design weight and balance limits?

If an aircraft flies overweight, or out of the published C of G envelope and an accident occurs, the insurance company will simply refuse to pay out. A CAA accident investigation will undoubtedly discover the weight and balance at the time of the accident, of course.

The pilot / captain is personally responsible in law for the safety of the flight. If the insurance company won't pay out and a passenger or a bereaved relative files a lawsuit, who is going to be paying from their own pocket? :ouch:

Go figure.

[Aussie Andy]

Rather than sit here on my 18st a*se reading this, I have decided to go down to the gym...!

Andy :ok:

[J.A.F.O.]

I've decided to save the money on gym membership and put it towards a bigger aircraft.

I know a simple question often sparks a debate on Pprune and I wasn't looking for definitive answers just interesting bits like:
My Rans S6 has a 430kg limit. This means I can carry 31stone with full fuel. andR22 - full fuel plus 24 stone of people/luggage.

Interesting to look at what different aircraft can allow you to do, also interesting to think about how small my passenger would have to be in an R22 or C152 - I'm not sure I could even join in on the "Take your Dog Flying" thread with some of the W&B issues raised.

Thanks.

[Whirlybird]

JAFO,

Most people who fly the R22 two-up just fill the main tank, not the auxiliary as well. The last airfield I flew at, the refueller was always surprised when I arrived with a passenger and wanted both filled. It means you have to stop every couple of hours, but it's not a major problem.

It's much harder in a C150 with non-working fuel gauges. :(

[J.A.F.O.]

Thanks Whirly, I don't think I'd as much fly in a Robbo as wear it.

I know that occasionally when I've been in a 150 it's been on instructor's experience rather than carefully calculated W&B.

I can take a reasonable sized passenger and full fuel in a 150 it's just as the pax gets more healthily built (to use a non-sizeist euphemism) the fuel has to go down.

[Stevemcmli]

My Rans S6 has a 430kg limit. This means I can carry 31stone with full fuel.

Hey Rans Flyer, that's a pretty impressive useful load. Is the Rans S6's cockpit comfortable for a big guy? From a photo it looks kind of cramped!

[Sunfish]

Just so you know, if you have a heavy passenger and wiegh a bit yourself, you might want a little ballast if you fly a 172. The reason is that at forward CG limits your elevator is going to run out of authority a little earler in the flare which could possibly lead to a firmer than normal landing.:E