ATPL vs. ATPL Frozen

[Skott]

As a F/O with a Frozen JAA ATPL certificate I am wondering about the advantages of converting to a full ATPL.

I have read something about being able to log PIC time flying as F/O.

[Omark44]

Skott, I think you may have been given some mis information.

The only time that you can log Pilot-In-Command time as such is when you are the nominated Commander of the aircraft and you will sign all the necessary paperwork, you would obviously do this on a single crew operation, for example. When you fly as a First Officer you will be given the opportunity to be the handling pilot and will do the take-off, en-route flying and landing from time to time, this flying may be logged as Pilot-In-Command(Under Supervision) or P1(S) but not as P1 or PIC.

One of the obvious advantages of having a full ATPL is that you may then command an aircraft with an all up weight in excess of 5,700kgs.
In some companies it qualifies you to become a Senior First Officer and that may include more pay. An ATPL usually becomes 'unfrozen' when you have attained the necessary total hours that include the night flying requirement etc. and requires you to submit your log book to your issuing Civil Aviation department.

Hope this helps.

[Skott]

What I've heard earlier is that of the hours flown as a F/O after convertion to full ATPL half can be logged as PIC time.
But this is not possible then?
You might just as well fly PICUS with a frozen ATPL. Besides one should not be able to log PICUS to exceed 250 PIC as far as I remember.

Does anyone know of other than the two advantages Omark44 mentions about command positions on small aircrafts and pay in certain companies?

I have been in contact with the authorities in Scandinavia and it seems that to convert my certificate I need more or less to fly a Captains check.
Is this different in other countries?

[alexban]

Usually you'll start up with a frozen ATPL or a CPL/IR rating .
Most of the companies won't hire you without a frozen ATPL at least.
Then you'll have to unfrozen you're ATPL. It's no conversion at all.
All you need is 1500 TT(night hours,...etc) and 250 hrs as PIC.When you''l have this experience you'll have to do a skill test (it can be done from RHS also ),and you'll get you're ATPL.
It's a normal evolution step in one's career.
Without a ATPL you won't be allowed to fly as CPT on a plane higher than 5700kg.
If you are a F/O you'll record hours as a F/O .Even if you are allowed to fly the bird it's also F/O hrs in the book.
Only when you are in training with a authorized training cpt or instructor you can log PICUS (no limit for those, I guess)
You can only log as PIC if you are pilot in command (PIC) ,not a F/O.It's like you are a f/o on a 737 and you log hrs as PIC (never heard of this).
The max allowed for a F/O is on some companies -a f/o that can relieve the cpt on the LHS during cruise.

You shoud read JAR-FCL to find out more exactly what you need.

[CosmosSchwartz]

Just to clarify something here : If you are flying as an FO in a two crew op, when it's your sector you put your hours in the PIC column in your log book. It may be PICUS but it DOES count as P1 time for your full ATPL licence issue.

EDIT : Sorry, should have made clear that the above applies to the UK. Not sure about other countries.

[Jetstream Rider]

Just got my ATPL.

The requirement for 250 hours P1 (of which 150 can be PICUS), is covered by a mix of an integrated course and experience (or by normal P1 as a self improver). Log PICUS if it is your sector and P2 if it is not. Log P1 if you are the captain.

The 100 hours of P1 (250 less 150 PICUS) comes from your course, any hours logged as SPIC (student pilot in command), unlike PICUS <DOES> count towards the 100 hours P1. SPIC is flown with an instructor but SPIC and PICUS are different!

Is it worth getting your ATPL? - Yes. It is consicered a "senior" licence by many, if you are made redundent or lose your job you are more employable. It is also a normal step to take. You can log as much PICUS as you like, it still counts towards the total time required for an ATPL. There are a number of other minimum hours you need as well, these include 500 hours in a multi crew aircraft, and a large chunk of your PICUS will count towards that no doubt.

If you are an FO, and only have P2 hours, then I wouldn't touch you with a bargepole if I were an employer. I would look for a good mix of P2 and PICUS - otherwise all that flying means no handling.

[Ojuka]

"If you are an FO, and only have P2 hours, then I wouldn't touch you with a bargepole if I were an employer. I would look for a good mix of P2 and PICUS - otherwise all that flying means no handling."

(a) Not the case.
(b) Never did me any harm.

I logged my entire career as an FO as P2 regardless of whether I was PF or PNF (which was alternated on a sector basis). Never once logged PICUS as I never thought to, nor considered myself as commander of the aircraft under supervision.

When you become involved in recruitment I hope you will look for other attributes from candidates rather than solely base your decision on their logbook entries.

[Pub User]

Ojuka

By your method of logging hours, someone who was newly-trained and went straight into a multi-crew job would never be able to obtain an ATPL, as they would never log any P1/S hours.

LASORs gives the regulations on what you 'may' (its word) log in various circumstances, and a co-pilot's sector is logged in the P1 column, with P1/S in the duty column. Additionally, the Captain should countersign the entry.

Although I'm not in recruitment at the moment, I have been in the past. I agree that the 'other attributes' are generally more important than logbook entries, but I would be very reticent about a candidate if their logbook was filled in incorrectly for their entire co-pilot career.

[Ojuka]

"Additionally, the Captain should countersign the entry."

Indeed correct. And I have never seen this countersignature by candidates when presenting their logbooks at interview.
Maybe I should have been reticent that they did not complete their entries correctly and shown them the door.

[Skott]

Ok so what you are saying is that I should log the time where I am flying pilot as PIC even as F/O. No matter if it's a ATPL frozen or full ATPL certificate.
I now have 1700 hours total of which 1500 is flown on medium jet and turboprop.
This of course results in plenty of night and instrument time.
Besides I have more than 250 hours PIC.

From what I have been told by the Norwegian CAA I have to have a PC flown from left seat as well as more detailed brief and sim.
And of course they want a much larger fee than that of a normal PC to let me fly this.
Does anyone have a direct reference to JAR FCL1 about how this should be done?

[928]

Skott

This all depends on which country you're in. In Scandinavia it's quite common not having an ATPL until you enter the left seat of a jet or a turboprop after a few years as a copilot. And during your period in the right hand seat you never log your hours as anything but copilot. As far as I know there is no such thing as a "frozen" ATPL in Scandinavia, to get a job you need a CPL/IR and a passed ATPL theoretical exam. When it's your turn to change seats you must pass an ATPL checkride in the LHS. When I joined a British airline as a captain I was surprised to see the number of copilots wanting me to countersign their logbooks.


Pub User

When you were in recruitment, did you turn down a few Scandinavian pilots due to their lack of P1 hours? Even though their logbooks may not have contained many P1 hours they had been filled in correctly.

To overcome the problem of not having enough PIC hours when you're about to become a captain you first do the LHS training in the sim. Then you fly the required number of PICUS hours during the linetraining and then finally you get to do the ATPL checkride.

[Jetstream Rider]

Things are obviously different in Scandinavia - are they fully JAROPS?

Ojuka - in the UK, logging P2 all the time means you have done no handling. If you were to come to my interview, regardless of your other important attributes, your logbook says you have x years without landing, it would then be fair to say you were far from current as a handler. If you logged P2, when actually it was a mix of PICUS and P2, then you got it wrong and got away with it. Others might not be so lucky.

My post was from a UK point of view. Countersignatures can be by a CAA examiner, authorised company representative etc, not nesc the captain on the day. There have been cases of the CAA turning away applicants for not having countersignatures. My own logbook is a mixture of captains squiggles and a company representative signing one page.

See LASORS for UK law, and the equivalent in Scandinavia for theirs.

[928]

Scandinavia is indeed fully JAR-OPS, issuing licences according to JAR-FCL.

Would anyone care to comment on how copilot hours are logged in the rest of Europe?

[Ojuka]

"in the UK, logging P2 all the time means you have done no handling."

This is a sweeping remark to make. There was no such thing as PICUS when I was an FO (pre-JAR), the closest thing was P1/S. I was never in command of the aircraft, I did however make PF/PNF notes in the remarks column.

My next two employers showed no concern over an abundance of P2 hours and few P1/S hours.

[Waggon rut]

If you read JAR-FCL 1.080, it clearly states you can log PF in the command column if it is counter signed by the captain, or as I have done have the log book signed by the fleet manager when you leave or your contract expires. How else can you possibly work out how much handling time you have on the aircraft. Indeed the UK CAA made no comments when I moved from a UK CPL to JAR ATPL.

PS. I am talking about a two crew operation above 5700kg……..

[Jetstream Rider]

Ojuka - it is not a sweeping remark - it is true with the current regulations. Post JAR it may not be true. The fact is, things have changed quite considerably since you did it and my post above is up to date.

In the past an ATPL did not require multi crew work - it does now. P2 used to count for half, P3 for a third. This is also no longer true. There have been some major changes in the law and the regulations with the advent of JAR and giving out of date advice does not help. Employers who understand the current regs would not like to see someone with only P2.

[Ojuka]

"in the UK, logging P2 all the time means you have done no handling."

This is the remark I continue to take issue with.

Do you mean...........

"in the UK, logging P2 all the time would not indicate your handling time."

The fact remains I handled the aircraft for effectively half of the time and annotated the remarks column accordingly. It does not MEAN I have done no handling.

[Jetstream Rider]

P2, in JAROPS language, means you are the non handling pilot and not the captain and have a licence to operate the aircraft. The captain always logs P1. Trainees log DUAL, which is different to P2, or P2 if they are line training.

In your logbook, you may have indicated that whatever you logged was as handling pilot - fair enough - hence you got other jobs. If you had not written in the remarks column, your logbook would indicate you had no handling sectors.

In days before JAROPS, I accept things were different. If in a JAROPS logbook there was only P2 logged - it would mean non handling.

[Ojuka]

"If you had not written in the remarks column, your logbook would indicate you had no handling sectors."

I shall take it this is the answer to my question; though it is hidden in your context.

At no time have I said you were incorrect in your theories and JAR explanations.

Come to think of it, I recall I was not asked to show my logbook at all at my last two job interviews. I was required, however, to show a breakdown of P1, P2 etc. in tabular form.

[Jetstream Rider]

Glad we've sorted that out. Re-reading some of the above it seems a bit blunt, no offence intended.