EK resuming DEC interviews

[fullforward]

Rumours from more than one source says EK will be resuming interviews for DECs in the coming months.
Are there more informed fellows wich could put some light on it?

[Shake]

FF:

Only more rumour I'm afraid but poor planning has left EK critically short of sim slots due to the 'scheduled' down time of EK sims in Dubai.

Management pilots have been seen in Singapore, BKK, Oz and other places looking for sim space.

I am guessing that if they can't find enough sim space (and rumour has it that they can't) then DECs may be sought who require less sim time....

Either way, the spectre of DECs is apparently looming yet again due to some incredibly inept management and lack of foresight. If they do appear it can only be detrimental to those waiting for their turn on the command conveyor and again they are SO UNNECESSARY.

[rumblytumblypoo]

If you think about it it makes perfect sense. It takes less time to train a guy who has never flown a 330 or 340 or 777 in his life but held a command in some dodgy outfit on a medium where nobody knows **** about the general level of standards. Than it does to move a guy Right to Left who has worked for you for three years min, knows the aircraft like the back of his hand and the routes and the laborious SOP's and has a ludicrously over the top amount of hours.

The only factor not taken into account is that as they hire the DEC's the experienced FO's leave and training doubles anyway.

On the subject of resignations did you hear one of our captains resigned by attaching his resignation to the Fatigue related ASR and sending it to the CEO. Not rumour that one, FACT and he doesent have a job to go to.

[White Knight]

RTP - you beat me to it:ok:

How many sims is it for a transition, and how many sims for an upgrade same type? A fair bit of difference if I recall...

Another 'bus FO has also just resigned.(yesterday)

[Vorsicht]

777 skipper resigned last week for SIA cargo.

[Believe Brother]

And another Airbus skipper resigned in the last few days.

[rumblytumblypoo]

Sorry and I forgot to mention FO's have already passed the interview process once before.

[fullforward]

All this is terribly unfair to FOs that 'bought the farm' and now see the rules been bent unilaterally...
This situation will only change either by market forces or an union (unthinkable for the time being)

[millerscourt]

Vorsicht You say an EK 777 Capt joining SQ Cargo on 744

I find that quite amazing. Guess he just wants a change or Perhaps he comes from OZ and wants to get nearer home???

Hope he knows what he is letting himself in for.

[Vorsicht]

millerscourt

You shouldn't be amazed. I know that SIA has its problelms, but it goes to show that EK has an equivalent amount of problems, such that small things like proximity to home or aircraft type can make the difference.

The fact that one of our guys is leaving for SIA should be a clear warning to those looking toward EK. Do your homework!

[helen-damnation]

Not forgetting the 777 F/O who left last week to go back to Ryanair as an LTC.:ooh:
Less than 18 months in DXB :yuk:

[Obfuscation]

For the upgrade I believe it is 9 sim sessions compared to the 5 that the DEC's with Airbus experience get. Thus the beancounters figured it would be cost effective to hire DEC's. As the package did not attract the required candidates, the criteria changed and experienced non Airbus Capts were hired which invalidated all the cost savings as they were put on the long course anyway...and as rtp notes the FO's with the route/type/SOP experience were knocked back...

[gehenna]

Obfusication

DEC's also have 9 sim sessions, even when they have Airbus experience. Voice of experience.

[helen-damnation]

And then.............

There are the one's who have never flown an Airbus
in their lives and get a full conversion!:mad: :mad: :mad:

Flew with one recently, nice chap.:cool:

How many sim slots?:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Hajj Man]

I read your post about your DECs and feel the fustration you guys are going through at Emirates.

If you remove the word EMIRATES from the post and put QATAR AIRWAYS, it is the same, same, same over here with the way they treat the F/Os and the upgrading. Pathetic way to treat your long time, dedicated, f/os.

We also hire the non type rated captains that have to go through the full coarse. They are hired just because they did some "JET" left seat time at some airline that gave them a quick upgrade on a 737 or MD-80 and now they fly here at QR. Some of them have no idea what is going on. You should hear the stories coming from these F/Os at QR about the QUALITY in the left seat? Probably the same stories over at Emirates?

Anyhow, we feel the same pain over here at QR. Sad but true.

Hajj Man:ok:

[MR8]

Hajj Man,

I flew with quite a few of the DEC's at EK, and most of them are good at what they are doing. All of them are great to fly with as they are relatively new in the company and are still enjoying Dubai without moaning to much.. it's a change. ;)
I think the DEC's are colleagues just like everybody else and they are not to blame for taking an opportunity that was given to them by EK, even if they lack experience compared to some F/Os who have been kept waiting longer then expected.
I do understand that one is completely pissed of hearing the DEC he's flying with has his first job on glass or with pax at EK, but they only applied for a better living themselves..
I have no idea about your situation at QR, but don't blame your DEC's.

For the EK guys..

As a F/O at EK, we're completely f:mad:cked... EK management can do whatever they want with us.. most of us can't leave... Bond, car loan, expenses of moving again, trying to find a better job then EK (no, I'm not planning to go back to some Low Cost just because of that left seat). Combined with all the saving you can do as a F/O at EK (nada), our situation is just asking to be exploited... sad but true..:{

[Gulfa]

LHR rain

It’s a good job this forum is anonymous
That sort of post could get you out of EK a little earlier than you’d planned. !!

[Eurydice]

LHR

I think your words are just a bit over the top old boy.

However, I agree that EK should never have gone down this route with so many qualified F/O's clearly suitable for the LHS.

More of "addled" madness.

Have a night off it tomorrow.:E :E

[ladbroke]

LHR Rain,
For the sake of the future of Aviation , I sincerely hope you never make Command. The Industry is in enough trouble without people like you in charge. Not only should you not be in the Right seat, you shouldnt be on the aircraft fullstop!

[LHR Rain]

Ladbroke,

You metion that if I was not in aviation the industry would be better off. Fair enough, but how in your right mind can you believe that DEC's or people that take other peoples jobs is good for the industry? In my mind the DEC's are one of the biggest problems in the industry right now and with an eduacated guess we would have a lot less problems if not for them and the mangement that employs them and their tactics. Does BA employ such tactics or even Air France?
So we are not allowed to speak our mind in aviation? I am only one bloke while there are countless (too many) DEC's ruining this fine profession. Do you speak out agaisnt them as well? Aviation used to be full of colorful characters now we are just waiting for the next hammer to fall. Lets take a stand and stop the madness.

[MAXMEDLO]

Any local pilot with who can’t fill your seat for whatever reason ( may it be convincing or not) can say just about the same about expats invading his country and taking his opportunity, but this was never the case since its known to all that it’s a matter of supply and demand and you cant run a company with emotions, so cool down or walk away.

Over and out:ok:

PS, where did your old post go?

[Dissapointed]

LHR Man, whilst most will silently agree with you, the majority are just waiting their time in the left seat to become sufficient to apply for the next decent DEC job that shows up. My advice? put up, shut up and get the hours in as P1, then show EK where your loyalties lie by getting a decent paid job as a DEC with an agency. Remember, as an expat pilot you are not loyal, neither should you expect 'loyalty' in return. Buddy, it is you against the world and the sooner you realise that the better for you and your family. Get the time in, enjoy the fun times, but do not expect anything back from this lot.

One thing that changed my perspective was that of not becoming the victim. I am now the bloodsucker on the back of this camel, not the other way around. I am the parasite, the leech, the rash on the skin. The difference between you and the likes of TCAS is that he knew that a long time ago. He is in it for himself not you, not I, but only for him. Never expect to be protected by the likes of those that occupy the 2nd floor, but admit now to yourself that it is you to whom you are loyal to. No company, no individual is worth your time now, but your time is invaluable to yourself. Accept that and you are on the path to true enlightenment! You'd pay a lot of money elsewhere for that advice!!

[Gulfa]

LRH Man
Know any BA guys do you ?
Very few content happy ones ! ( Not sub 20 years service anyway )
Different problems, but none the less plenty of them.
I.e., BA swallows up a failing airline and within a couple of years those guys are all integrated into the Mainline seniority ( remember Dan Air, City Flyer Express etc ) due to the loving union pressure.
Bingo command set back !
EK – Same thing different hat on.
Any BA / Air France boys got 777 / 330 / 340 commands in less than 10 years ?

How about cabin crew earning considerably more than pilots !

Calm down man ! Stop abusing innocent professional aviators,
Get yourself a hobby, and wait your turn.
ps
Very glad your original post has been removed

dissapointed's advice is spot on.

[Dissapointed]

Mate, If only I could turn that advice around and channel it through my 6 iron!! ;)

[Believe Brother]

I think the problem here is really that EK moves the goal posts all over the place, and alters conditions of service as they wish. Many of the F/O's who have been affected by the DEC's joined before DEC's were employed. They thought they were joining an airline like CX (pax fleet), that offers career progression through ranks for expats, and supplements the numbers with national cadets. But after joining, the DEC issue was thrown at them. And EK does not pay F/O's with families enough to sit around for too long in the right seat, especially given inflation here and the demise of the USD. Some of you may remember the meeting in Oct 2000, when the command requirements were altered from 4 PPC's and 4,500 hrs, to 4 years and 8,000 hrs. And as an FO at the time, I remember how p*ssed off that made me, because I could see the now airline president using it as an excuse to get DECs back then. This is not a pro or anti DEC comment, just one to say I know how the FO's feel, and how nice it would be for EK to actually leave our contracts alone.

[Trashed Aviator]

Its OK some of the guys are setting up a recruitment agency, its legal i think , unlike a union ........

A list of people intending to resign is being compiled so hopefully a mass resignation can be employed on a certain future date, hold back a little if you can otherwise get out of this mess.

About SIA Cargo the pay would appear to be about double what an EK Captain gets if you have no kids its a way better deal.....

[mk1eyeball]

not only is the money better but living there is a great deal more pleasant all round.
you can send your kids to good schools which cost less than in dubai.
im no great fan of SIA but it beats emirates hands down if you are a capt.

[quarefellah]

Hi,
Trashed Aviator, what's this about a recruitment agency?? Haven't heard anything about it-would you care to elaborate? I have to say I like the sound of it. Don't seem to be that many LHS jobs out there for 'Bus drivers whatever about our 3 times 7 colleagues. BTW did not miss the significance of the joint resignation date.
Happy flying

[LHR Rain]

Thanks for the words of encourgement from you thoughtful pilots. You do have well metioned points and I will try to follow them. However I have to take issue with GULFA who said that the DEC are innocent aviators. They are not innocnet and should not be treated as such. They knew the consquences of their actions when they applied (and no one forced them to apply) and even when they came to Dubai for a visit. It is industry knowledge weather fair or not that someone who jumps someones seniority or takes anothers jobs is a pretty low person with no honor. This should not change.
A fellow pilot put in his post that I should get my P1 and get out. That is my intention but I am having a hard time getting that P1 time when my commnad keeps getting further and further away from me, or at least appears to be anyway. If no DECs came the company would have to upgrade us qualified FOs who are jerking gear for DECs who never flew a widebody.

[BlueEagle]

There are very few airlines that employ expatriates that don't have a DEC system, especially in the Middle East, although it is common practice in any rapidly expanding airline, even in Europe and Australia. Only a few airlines, like long established national carriers, are able to offer a protected seniority system, you may not like it but if you plan to stay out in the expat. world you will make life a lot easier for yourself if you get used to it. If you try and give DECs a hard time you will certainly make life very hard for yourself.
In this instance I believe that it is you that is out of step and everyone else that is in step. I agree that in a perfect world there would be no need for DEC. I too 'suffered' from them many years ago and then due to circumstances I had no control over eventually became one. Aviation is no different to any other industry, you sell your product to the highest bidder if you are working as an expat and the better your product the better the deal. I don't think honour comes into it as much as plain old family economics!
You may feel that you have been mislead and badly treated by your employer but there is nothing new to that anywhere and the quicker you drop it as an issue and get on with enjoying life the quicker the time will pass until you are in the LHS. If you dwell on it then it will eat you away like an acid or a cancer and quite possibly ruin your chances of a command.

Just a thought, when you have achieved the LHS and got some useful command time under your belt are you going to stay where you are until pension time or will you then go off looking for a job elsewhere? And if you do leave will you be looking for a job as a captain or as an F/O?;)

[Zomp]

LHR,
it was on PPRUNE for over 2 years that EK is taking DEC's and that the time to command is more than 5 years but you did not listen, so be a man and live with your bad decision to join EK.

[LHR Rain]

I would never take someones job and try to jump the seniority list. Simple economics does not equate to trying to screw my fellow pilot. I metioned before that this industry would be much better off if we did not have so many self centered pilots only looking out for themselves.
I was long here at EK before they announced (in a backhanded way) that they would employ DECs. Talk about moving the goalposts!

[Payscale]

Yes, but now that, they are here, so live with it...or get an ullcer(?) Nothing you say or do will change that. DEC pilots were here when you started. Loads of them. EK just hasnt recruited any for a while. ME airlines have always employed DECs from time to time. With 44 A380 and 26 B773-ER knocking on the door surely there are commands for everyone.

[Saltaire]

I think we're all disappointed with this DEC development, but the blame is not to those that have joined. You might find yourself in the same position one day and opportunity knocks. It's a great option for those from different backgrounds, especially if you've never flown an airbus.........what a win ! That's my issue. Fine to supplement expansion with some highly qualified individuals, but we have many questionable people to say the least, and some that have zero time on type. DEC's in training if you will. There are too many highly capable F/O's that should be trained immediately and given their opportunity inside the magic three years. DEC's should be secondary to looking after current employees in good standing.

[Gulfa]

LHR Man,
You didn’t answer Blue Eagles question

Just a thought, when you have achieved the LHS and got some useful command time under your belt, are you going to stay where you are until pension time or will you then go off looking for a job elsewhere? And if you do leave will you be looking for a job as a captain or as an F/O?

[Zomp]

LHR,
EK said they will hire DEC at the famous meeting 2001, when you were here that time you would have been in the left hand seat by now, but I guess you weren't, thats why slow down and take it easy.

PS: didnt you say you just want LHS time and the you are out of here? Guess then with your LHS time you just want go somehwere else as DEC.

[Trashed Aviator]

As a start go to pilotpointer.com , links to jobs there.

still trying to set up a central base or a website , we have many pilots from all over the world here so it will have to be a team effort.
China airlines has large orders looming we may be able to approach them as a group , they tend to have offshore bases for long haul pilots and money is better....






:ok:

[hans_airbus]

Hi LHR,

how do u feel to take an arabs F/O job here in the UAE. It doesnt matter if u are an expat fo or capt. With ur attitude u should never get an upgrade and very probably u will never get it.
I think u failed in your home country and ur previous little airline as a bush pilot otherwise you wouldnt leave. So pls tell us if u leave EK are you gonna start as a Fo or Capt.

[LHR Rain]

First of all when I came to the middle east I didn't jump anyone on the seniroty list. I was hired at EK and went to the bottom of the list and have slowly moved up. I can't imiagine the Arabs being upset that we are taking "their jobs" when EK has a hard enough time filling their slots. When an opportunity presents itself with any airline in Europe I will be on the first plane out of the sand. Now having said that we all know that very few airlines on the continet allow DECs. Yes I know some of the charter airlines from time to time do it but I can guarentee everyone on this board that I will not take somones job or jump any seniority list.
I thought EK would be a good job with no taxes (little did I know that they have huge hidden taxes!) and a place to live. I believe we are better off on the continent with the labor laws in place even if a few pilots believe you can do better off in the sand. Just my thoughts, fire away!

[NIGHTTRAMP]

LHR, As you will be starting from the bottom of a senority list as an FO again it's probably best that you leave ASAP.

With the size of the hole you have dug for yourself, you must be getting close to the south pole, probably better to start looking for a job in the Southern Hemisphere.

NT

[LHR Rain]

What hole? A pilot is not allowed to express himself? If more of us expressed ourselves we would not be in the shape we are in as an industry. This group does not need YES men, it needs someone to say no every now and again.

[hans_airbus]

Hi LHR,

Did you say N O to the managment?

[Omark44]

Well LHR Rain, unless you are an official spokesperson for a Government recognised pilot union, you should be very careful who you say 'No' to!

What this industry needs is for all heads to get together and come up with a well reasoned proposal. One or two 'hot-heads' standing on their idea of principle and their interpretaion of industrial justice, creating a stir, will only get them the sack.

You are obviously quite young, LHR Rain, and extremely naive, not to mention having no idea about the expat world, so please take kindly my suggestion that you just sit back and get on with the job you were employed for, do it to the best of your ability, accept that the path ahead may be strewn with a few bolders, like DEC, for instance, (and no different to just about anywhere else in the world), and in due course, when the time is right, you will get the opportunity to be assessed for command and if you fit the bill, in all respects, pass command training then the LHS will be yours!,

[Shake]

What this industry needs is for all heads to get together and come up with a well reasoned proposal.

Any suggestions Omark as to how the heads would get together to formulate such a well reasoned proposal and what it would be?

[Omark44]

No Shake , but that is the opposite extreme to LHR Rain's current position.

A degree of happiness and contentment will be found somewhere in between!

[Quod Boy]

For heavens sake,EVERYONE,who posts here from EK.

Wake Up.

Its done,its been done,it will continue to be done,and they know,as you know theres nothing we could or can do do,with so many different factions.We have NO voice.

People are voting with their feet,and the damage is done.

Just remember,if youre not lazy,your lucky to have a job,so just keep discovering.

Off to the pub.QB

:ooh:

[fullforward]

That's it!...
Simply and brilliantly put, mate!
The rest is childish "bohooing"...

One day we'll all grew up and have a sort of International Pilots Union and be able to fight for what we think is fair and reasonable for us and our careers.
Who knows?

For now we have to count only on our comon sense and on this wonderful space (thanks forever, Danny!...)

[Sheikh Nickabouk]

Interesting quotes from the Fired CCM posts.

Don't like it leave!

[dunerider]

Mensaboy you are dreaming.Give up.
Sheikh Nickabouk why dont you find another forum to annoy or better still go away altogether your an idiot.

[Payscale]

Mensa...I see your point, but you are confusing lower experienced FOs with bad FOs.
Ek had to decide which road they want to take.

1. Former captains/ Older FOs segment. Everybody starts in the RHS. Upgrade in turn. Abolish the 3 year policy. No fasttrack (they are kind of DECs)

or

2. DECs/ Lowtime FOs. Younger DECs will come for the rating, older DECs just for the hell of it. Bit of golf and beach before retirement. Young FOs with 2000H are always available.

Both options will work on their own. Mixing them is not good.

[mensaboy]

I'm not so sure we disagree Payscale, except perhaps that I don't believe the present policy is working. With the limited number of DEC's EK has now hired (in the range of 100?), there is a lot of dissention and unfairness already felt by F/O's and previous Captains.

This has led to an exodus of decent pilots in the past year that has never ever happened in the history of this airline.

I was simply making a suggestion of an alternate policy, which of course will take time to implement and take effect, but will at least help return this airline to its past glory.

Perhaps there really isn't a problem and my viewpoint is not valid. That is clearly the message management is attempting to send, but from every single person i've talked to on the line, their feelings seem to support my view.

I have no heartache being proven wrong if that is the case, but all i'm trying to do is offer a suggestion for improvement with regards to something that I think may destroy this airline over the next few years. I honestly hope I am wrong, as I never had any intention of leaving here once I made the move. As of this moment though, if things don't change I can't see myself flying 95 hours a month for the next 18 years. My future health and general lifestyle wishes preclude me from doing this for too many more years.

[jumbo1]

Hey Quod Boy
Great posts mate!
If you carry on going to the pub every time you post you're going to get had for being an alcoholic
See ya in the pub!
:p