Ryanair Erc Members Resign Please!

[beernice]

Here is a call for pilot members of Ryanairs ERC to do the honourable thing and resign. For background Ryanair has always paid lip service to employer/employee relations. It set up a forum called the ERC years ago in an effort to maintain a pretense of industrial relations. The ERC was a one way set up, a convient way of telling us what changes were required.
Then came the situation in Dublin. In its preliminary findings the labour court agreed that the ERC was not a worthwhile forum. Hence there has been a desperate scramble by management to manafacture activity from the the ERC and made it look like the pilots have a body in which to negotiate with management. However Ryanairs idea of a pilot negotiating body is one where they pick who is on it and they set the agenda. Pilots have no say on who represents them or any way of agreeing or disagreeing with decisions that are made.
I am calling on the pilot members of the STN ERC to resign and put yourself forward for election. You do not represent me. I resent the fact that you make decisions supposedly on my behalf even though I have no say. You have no mandate.
I am asking all other STN pilots to put pressure on these people to resign. I would also ask that we campain for simple democracy. I think it right that the pilots not management choose who represents them. LET US HAVE A VOTE!!
This may sound like a case of industrial relations from the turn of the centuary but this is the reality of modern day ryanair.

[Flying Mech]

Long live Pprune & that ever popular subject of FR bashing! Just when you think they cant sink any lower as the dirty washing keeps tumbling out FR raise the Bar again and continue to show they're semmingly never ending disgraceful treatment of staff,whom they nearly treat as bad as their customers.:ok:

[delwy]

Just to clarify. Ryanair appear to have appointed, cajoled, persuaded and otherwise "encouraged" pilot "representatives" at every base - except Dublin - to "engage" and "negotiate" with local management. (According to the REPA site one base even has a representative who is not based there!).

Interestingly, all these independent "negotiations" seem to have ended up with in and around the same package. This is truly amazing and shows that co-incidence is alive and well in Ryanair.

The Stansted package is even written to make it clear that there were several meetings and the entire sham exercise is clearly intended to have the mark of acceptability as something "directly negotiated by local pilot representatives".

The Dublin guys may well have got the correct end of the stick on this particular game. After all, nobody is going to argue about the outcome in other bases, are they? As a Ryanair look-alike said on the other Ryanair thread:
"Cause grief - and we'll do everything we can to make life so unbearable, you'll leave" I think we get the message (which is what they want). Cue lots of people to talk about how generous Ryanair has been to give back the 3% they took last year and what a wonderful airline it is, full of nice, kind, cuddly management figures ever concerned about one's welfare.

Will this nonsense ever end??!!

[Chequeredflag]

Well, on the plus side, I flew Ryanair as a px last week, Stanstead - Bergerac, returning three days later. Faultless!! Band new 737/800, leg room just about OK for my 6'2" frame for a short flight. Took off on time, arrived 20 minutes early, both ways.

Baggage off really quickly both ends (these quick turnarounds really speed such things up), the crew were effecient and friendly (which is more than can be said for the arrogant and miserable French "security" staff at bergerac).

Ryanair may have internal problems, but based on what I saw as a mere punter, their future seems assured.

Oh yes, and their fares were less than half the cost of the Flybe routes from both Birmingham and Southampton on the same dates......both of which would have been more convenient for me.

[flap15]

Chequeredflag

Question: What has having had an nice flight got to do with pilots being able to to elect their own representatives? I can not see the link but I am only a driver of airframes. If you wish to praise Ryan air for there service start a new thread.

[Chequeredflag]

I was merely responding to the post which complained that all PPruners could do was stick the knife in to Ryanair. I fly with many airlines, some good, some bad, and as far as I'm concerned, if FR treat their staff, as well as they did their passengers on those two particular days, then there doesn't seem to be much to complain about!!!

Frankly, I don't give a toss if Ryanair or any other airline goes to the wall, there's always plenty more.....

However, this is obviously none of my business, so I'll butt out, and wait for the rude replies.....

[Boy]

chequeredflag. As someone recently attracted to the "Ryanair controversies" by a newspaper article that referred to this site I can advise you that pilots are not the only people who have problems with Ryanair. In fact there are apparently lots of sites, many closed down following legal threats by Ryanair, that try to address various different types of "Ryanair problem". Since you are a passenger why don't you have a look at one of the passenger sites - makes for interesting reading - Site (http://www.ryanair.org.uk/)

[Chequeredflag]

Boy,

Interesting reading indeed, but they are probably only doing what any other organisation would do to protect their interests.

It would nevertheless be very frustrating to be unable to register any complaint, but I guess that's one downside of their cheap fares?

I've only flown Ryanair three times, and in fairness, all trips have been very good, albeit the first one being on a classic 737 out of the ark!!

Neverthless, judging by the massive queues at ALL of their check-in desks at Stansted last week, they do have many satisfied customers as well! I am not a fan of any one particuler airline over another, so I don't have any axe to grind - just speaking as I find.

[Findo]

I have to say I agree with Chequeredflag.

I have flown with RYR dozens of times and the whole experience is overwhelmingly positive.

In addition my observation of the crews is that they are more often than not efficient and friendly which is not my experience with other airlines.

Professionally I come across RYR daily and never found a problem.


Just my observations of how they come across outside the complaints department here. :D :D

[220]

Back to the thread in hand.......

this is one of the most valid comments I have read on Pprune. Anyone who knows the details of what has happened must agree with everything said in the original post. Anyone who thinks it is wrong is either politically dysfunctional or FR management (or both!!).

the ERC reps have made a gross error in judgement by taking on the role of representing staff, most of whom were not even aware they were being 'represented'. This is complete nonsense. The mistake was made....recognise it and resign.

The staff change regularly at bases due to base changes and new starters. Without annual elections of representatives, there is only the pretence of representation. That is what this whole thing was...pretending representation. I for one found out about it on pprune and repa (in that order!!). Then I saw the notice in the crew room. Until that point i was only aware of one 'representative' who has been there for years and that person does NOT have my permission to go to management and negotiate a pay deal for me (that is just a personal opinion of the person...nice guy but not up to FR management)....It is my right to elect my rep. What a joke!!!

beernice....Thanks for saying what everyone I have ever met in FR is now thinking.

[i_need_cider]

A little insight into ERC

1: You tell the erc rep what problems or questions you have about the day to day running of the company( remember this is YOUR forum to LET the management know what the opinion is from the staff)

2: ERC rep submits said questions or queries to management

3: One to two weeks later ERC reps have a meeting where management tell rep's the answer's to the questions or queries.

4: Thats it no talk no involvement just what's decided plus also how great ryanair is and how lucky we are to be here

[maxalt]

To "chequered flag" et al.

You are all victims of the Ryanair propaganda machine.
To expect you to even remotely grasp the issues at hand would be fantasy.

Go back to sleep and let the people directly involved take care of it.

Nighty night. :ok:

[Hansol]

Maxalt - I think YOU are the one who needs to take a good look at the Facts. If we park the staff issues to one side, it is a fact that FR has a huge following (it carrys 2.5 million pax a month), it has one of the newest fleets in the business fact. I agree with much of what has been said above about the ERC but at the end of the day it is a very successful company which remains so during very difficult times. You can knock the way it treats its staff but you can't knock its appeal to the flying public.

[Say Mach Number]

As someone who knows one of our so-called reps can I put into perspective what happened as I have asked all the same questions.

There is only one ERC rep and he was democratically voted in by the pilots. That actually happened. Some guys arent aware because they werent in the company at the time.

He was informed by the company that despite an agreement in place that STN would have to justify its 3% pay rise this year. In any meeting it would have him against three managers and we all know who they would be.

The poor guy asked for help and the other 2 pilots came forward. Fair play to them for sticking their heads above the parapet. At least it was 3 vs 3.

These other two pilots have never claimed to be voted in, or that they represent anyone or anything. They were assisting our ERC rep. Basically they have nothing to resign from.

They assisted your ERC rep get what was rightfully yours a 3% pay rise and a few other bits.

This was not a new pay deal as some think.

Personally I think they did all right. Lets face nobody else wants to do it. Or if they do they are not telling anyone.

[Arkroyal]

You can knock the way it treats its staff but you can't knock its appeal to the flying public.The same public, who, like chequeredflag know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

[delwy]

Say Mach Number - no current member of any so-called ERC has been appointed in accordance with the rules (such as they are). What your chum has chosen to forget is that if he was voted in some time ago, he no longer meets Ryanair's own requirements for ERC membership (does he know the rules, indeed does he care?).

Here is a direct question: Did your chum go and ask others to help entirely on his own initiative or was he "encouraged" to do so by Ryanair, and was he pointed in "the right direction"?

Put another way, this situation stinks and these people are engaging in a form of self-serving collaboration designed to undermine their colleagues.

If you believe that the 3% was not for the granting before the "negitiations" ever started you need to start thinking a bit. Presumably you are neither aware that the 3% "settlement figure" was outlined on REPA when the sham was forecast some time ago.

Don't take us all for fools. Your chum serves his own self-determined purposes, not those of the pilots on whose behalf HE has chosen to speak. If your chum was a true democrat he would understand exactly what it is that he has done to his colleagues.

[Say Mach Number]

Point taken - but knowing this guy as i do i am certain there was no ill intent. He thought he was doing what he could to get everyone and himself the deserved pay rise.

Yes the ERC is a one year position but the rep has not been replaced because I think there been noone coming forward to take over.

Hopefully there will be a meeting soon and we can all say our piece.

[Chequeredflag]

Arkroyal,

Are you saying that when you are purchasing ANYTHING for your home/family, you do not take account of the price/value for money? To my mind, the two are inextricably linked. I certainly can't afford to ignore such matters, and as long as I am satisfied that I'm getting a good 'bang for my buck', then I'm happy with it.

It does seem to me, as an outsider looking in that there is a great deal of unrest within the pilot community of many (most?) airlines, which would indicate that all is not well within the managment structure (or is it because you are a militant bunch!?). I have a few friends who fly commercially (BMI, BA, and BMIBaby), and I'm just grateful you are all professional enough for it not to affect the "day job"

Nevertheless, I would have thought that my positive observations, as one of the many that keep you in business would have been welcomed by Ryanair personnel at least, not spat at.

With that I'll leave you to your many problems, and wish you the best of luck with your endeavours.

[220]

Say Mac Number.......thanks for clearing up some of the details. But you are still missing the big picture.

You said the rep negotiated what was 'rightfully ours'. Well, the management removed the 3%. Getting it back took negotiation. By definition negotiation involves compromise.....somebody made a compromise on my behalf without discussing it with me first. There are strings attached to this deal which I don't agree with. I am annoyed because I found out about the talks after they occured.

One of the biggest compromises these guys have made is to shaft their colleagues in Ireland. The phrase used in my last post was 'politically dysfunctioal'. That is what I think of these reps. Lets get straight to the point. The company is currently being nailed in the courts in Ireland for not having a functioning employee representitive body. The company is running around europe trying to negotiate with employees to try prove the courts wrong. Corridor messages are being sent 'ERC reps' as to what they can expect to achieve during these negotiations. Which means a child could go in and negotiate with apparent success. The management who are experienced negotiators are just playing with the reps like a cat pushes a stunned mouse around before it makes the fatal bite. This information is available to everyone. Educate yourselves....especially if you want to sit in front of management and purport to represent the workforce!!!!!

Why don't these guys check with BALPA and IALPA (or even REPA) as to what the consequences of their actions are. I chose to be a member of REPA and BALPA. I did not choose the current ERC rep.

I have been here a number of years and I'm sure your right 'say mach number', he was probably democratically elected before my time. But the demographics have changed. The -200 fleet is gone from stansted. The number of -800's has trebled. Assuming he got 75% of the then staff to vote for him, it would be realistic to estimate that less than 25% of the current staff voted for him, and maybe as low as 0%!!!!....As I say, I chose BALPA/REPA (if it was a good or bad decision has yet to be proven), but I did not choose the current ERC rep and I am one of the longer serving STN staff. Annual (or at least bi-annual) elections......and it should be a "panel'....not one person. What a joke....no concept pf democracy here at all.

Guys and gals, you have to take a step back and look at the concept of what is going on. The detail is clouding your perception on things.

I hate contributing to these forums....but this issue really has boiled my blood.

[Arkroyal]

Sorry, chequered, I did not mean to 'spit' at you.

My point was, that it seems to us in the industry (and I'm not FR) that our Ts and Cs are being slashed to allow you, the public, to travel at totally unrealistic fares. It is, perhaps, asking too much for you to look further than the price.
as long as I am satisfied that I'm getting a good 'bang for my buck', then I'm happy with it.Do you buy battery, or free range? Do you actively support sweat shops?

[Say Mach Number]

I understand the big picture but what are we saying here.

If there was no meeting the company would not have probably awarded the 3% and the other things we got back.

So would we rather have forgone all those things for STN in support of DUB or if the pilots had been consulted would it have been ok then to have the 3%.

Not quite sure where we would be if that went to a vote. The problem with this company is to many people dont give a damn and we are full of aviation mercaneries - where money is their God.

[minuteman]

Hence why the best bet is not to stick with an "ERC" dictated to and controlled by FR management...

[delwy]

Thanks for your temperate response Say Mach Number. I take the essential message that everybody has a point of view.

However, on a "not insignificant" technicality, the 3% is the return of a sum that was taken, without discussion or negotiation. It is not a pay increase, it is only represented by some as an increase. (Remember the terms of the 2000 agreement?).

It seems almost certain that this modest sum is really being dictated by the increased number of departures and difficulties in attracting captains. In that case, Ryanair simply have to give it (I mean, does anyone really think this is about kindness or fairness or .... what?). The “negotiations” are indeed a sham.

I think minuteman has the right idea. Proper, real, non-manipulated negotiations, or none at all.

[maxalt]

Maxalt - I think YOU are the one who needs to take a good look at the Facts. If we park the staff issues to one side, it is a fact that FR has a huge following (it carrys 2.5 million pax a month), it has one of the newest fleets in the business fact. I agree with much of what has been said above about the ERC but at the end of the day it is a very successful company which remains so during very difficult times. You can knock the way it treats its staff but you can't knock its appeal to the flying public.

Hansol, I'm sorry. I'm really confused as to what you're getting at here. Are you suggesting that because the public like flying with Ryanair I should just roll over?

Let me think about that a second.....:ooh:

Errrr....nope....I still don't get the link.
Maybe you'd better explain it to me.:hmm:

[Hansol]

Max - all I'm saying is the company may not be giving you what you want (and of course you shouldn't roll over), but they are giving the flying public what they want.

I know its been said time and time again in connection with FR but you always have the choice to move on.

[delwy]

Would "moving on" not = "rolling over"?

[Faire d'income]

Hansol,
The flying public don't know what they are getting. They don't know the maintenace records, the crews training records, the crews/engineers/cabin crews recent rest schedule, the staff morale, industrial relations within a company, the safety culture within a company.

The flying public at the moment would rather pay £10 for a flight and then £100's for a hotel room. They take safety for granted. We the pilots do not.

[maxalt]

The public are completely irrelevant to this issue.
The issue is between Ryanair and its pilots.
End of story.

[Chequeredflag]

Arkroyal,

I can see where you are coming from, and it must be frustrating for you guys to put up with poor terms and conditions to allow us to fly more cheaply. Problem is, with the huge amount of competition around amongst the low cost airlines, it will probably be difficult to overcome. As an aviation enthusiast, and trainee PPL, it's difficult to see beyond the fact, that to my eyes, you have the best job in the World!! As it's day to day routine for you, I can see how such matters are a thorn in the side.

Anyway, that's positively my last word on the subject, other than to wish you all good flying (and better working conditions!!)

[beernice]

Say mach number. I believe that the 3 % pay rise had nothing to do with the ERC. It was for two reasons, firstly as a stick to beat the Dublin pilots and secondly guys are leaving and its beginning to hurt. Lets not forget that we had five aircraft wet leased in last week because we did not have enough staff to fly our own. I heard that on one day it cost the company £750000. Another example of poor management I'm afraid, saving pennies and losing pounds.
As for the ERC members I know them as well. And because I know them to be decent guys i am asking them to resign and but themselves forward for election. We have a correct way of doing things and its time we stood up for what is right.

[chikenscanfly]

Just to put everything back into perspective...

for starters, those discussing about Passenger comforts and so forth on this forum, I don't mean to be rude in any way but it is spoiling the flow of this discussion slightly...

Although it is still rewarding to hear that the professional job our colleagues are doing in the face of so much adversity is ensuring that Ryanair keeps a good name amongst our fare-paying passengers... we really need to start focusing on the issue specified for this forum...

...could you be so kind as to open a new forum for that discussion, and place a link to that from this one so those reading on can still find you too...





The greatest frusterations with this issue so far seem to be related to the fact that the conditions 'awarded' to the pilots are purely repressentative of predictions made when the cuts were first made this time last year... It was said then they would take it all and give only half back, coming out as the good guys...

3% increase is what was agreed with by the pilot body from day one. It's threatened removal, along with other benefits and conditions, was in reaction to a predicted 'blood-bath' which never emerged...

As a result, the company has continued to grow in profits and passenger numbers, yet the benefits taken away have not been returned to the employees even though there is no concise argument as to why they should be withheld...

To then force the pilots to have to 'negotiate' for only part of what was taken away is so obviously telling of how the company considers it's worker's rights it becomes nauseating.


This is where the frusteration lies. For all the good intentions and hopes from Marco, Pavel, and Andrew, management is still unfairly manipulating theirs and many other's perspective of what they are actually rightfully entitled to... I am saddened that they did not take the opportunity beforehand to further inform themselves by signing up for REPA (http://www.repaweb.org) before the conclusion of these negotiations...

I only hope they do so now in reaction to the outcry from the pilot body...


There should be no place for these negotiations. They were never necessary. The point remains that what the company took away was still entitled to us, and should have been given back once it was obvious earlier predictions were highly inaccurate...

We are beyond that now...

I find that I also join the request to our colleagues brave enough to put their jobs on the line, but perhaps acted unbeknowingly to management's own interest, to step down from their positions and acknowledge the base committees for what they really are...


It fills one with sorrow, and at the same time anger at such open and malicious manipulation and intimidation...especially when it ultimately destroys the hopes and aspirations of those couraegous enough to dream...

[220]

Chickenscanfly...all well said. This is quite a good and relevent (to me) topic. It is being marred by people who (through no fault of their own) have no idea what is happening i.e. customers. It is about manipulation of staff and the courts and the erosion of working conditions....nothing to do with passengers.

Somebody mentioned early on in this thread that ryanair customers are happy and that this was somehow a justification for their actions on staff. This reminded me of the happy satisfied customers who bought mink coats from Harrods in the 60's. Just because the customers are happy doesn't make it right to sell them and condone the slaughter of animals for fashion accessories!!

And thanks to SayMachNumb for your 'measured' response to my comments. I didn't intend to attack you and I think you took it as such.

I thought I was one of few 'insiders' who felt this way. It seems I am not alone!! The fact the deal has been done puts us in what is possibly an irreversible situation. Personnally I feel I now have no way of having my voice heard. I know 2 of these guys reasonably well and I do like them, but what should I do? My gut feeling is to ask them "what the hell do you think you were doing?" at 90 decibels (the legal limit without ear protection!!), but it may be too much for well intentioned guys who made a mistake. Maybe lots of gentle comments may sort it out.

[delwy]

Definitely LOT's of GENTLE comments.... way to go.

[Finman]

The 'negotiating' powers of the ERC are amply demonstrated in the following example:

<The ERC stated that the payment for airside ID cards was unacceptable and was introduced without any consultation and should immediately be reversed.
Management response:
The abolition of Airport IDs cost represents a substantial saving to Ryanair. All costs including the recently introduced CRCs check in the UK will be directly borne by individuals. >


In other words Ryanair management do exactly as they please; the ERC has no ability to negotiate anything.

I don't like unions; look what Balpa did for Danair and more recently Easyjet. They took loads of money and achieved little or nothing. However, we do need a voice with some teeth. Repa may be the way.....

[Sick Squid]

As stated earlier, this thread is about relationships between Ryanair and the Ryanair pilot workforce. Nothing else.

In order to keep focus would those passengers who wish to discuss their experiences on Ryanair, be they positive, negative, neutral or otherwise please do so in the Passengers and SLF forum here, and leave this thread on-topic. With respect, this is internal politics in a major Airline that potentially has an impact on the whole of the industry. Diverting discussions down blind-alleys that merely consist of "I flew Ryanair to X from Y and they were OK/crap/ not bad, don't care" adds precisely nothing to this debate, and future posts in such a vein will be moved or deleted, as they merely distract the debate.

Continue please, but stay on topic, respect the title of the thread, and keep the fight clean.

[tephlon-don]

It simply is a political game. The main problem is the origional 5 year agreement having "unforseen circumstances" clause in it. As there is/was no unforseen circumstances either forcast or actually happening, then the origional agreement should be withheld and all the bits taken away replaced. Take them to court over this issue alone and I think some back pay etc will be owed. The problem is who to do our dirty work repa, balpa,ialpa or an elected body of pilot representatives. My own view is the latter as long as it is all official and above board. On another note why not threaten balpa/ialpa representation in exchange for this, that is what he fears the most after all.!

[flap15]

Finman

While your comments about Danair are sound they are not applicable to easyjet. Your comment also shows your lack of understanding of how BALPA works within a company. First of all the driving force comes from the company members who are willing to stand as officers of the union to represent their colleagues, with expert advise coming from the head office. If this support is good value for money is another debate altogether. The next key element is membership level. Without high levels of membership within a company it is impossible to threaten a management with the ultimatum of a strike however good or bad the union is. This will also be REPA's undoing if the work force spread over many countries do not all join and sing from the same hymn sheet.

Good luck with your work conditons since where ever MOL goes with his work practices the other loco management follow.

[delwy]

Can anyone at any Ryanair base tell us of an ERC that has been properly voted into "office". As far as I can see not a single one has been elected and most have been "appointed" in recent weeks.

[220]

Quote "So would we rather have forgone all those things for STN in support of DUB or if the pilots had been consulted would it have been ok then to have the 3%. Not quite sure where we would be if that went to a vote."

Say machnumb......The point I keep trying to drive home is the exact and percise answer to the question you have asked

WE WOULD BE WHERE WE VOTED TO BE!! My point is that it doesn't matter a damn what we (the pilot body) agree to to do. The fact we vote to agree on something means we had a voice and a number of representitives would go out to achieve the goal set out.

This is the fundementals of collective barganing that MOL is so against. But we keep thinking small and wondering "what if" about each issue. It doesn't matter "what if" about your personal circumstances. If a collective body, of which you form part of, come to an agreement then go in pusuit of that goal and achieve it (somewhat) then we have true success.

Your personal "inching forward" by private deals is generally to the detriment of somebody else if no collective bargining process is in place (the term "your" is generic and not you specifically of course).

Still not sure if I'm explaining myself properly....does this make sense?

[the grim repa]

where would we be - DEMOCRATIC.

whether or not these unelected individuals with their individual agendas,had the right to negotiate on the pilots behalf aside,the scraps they were thrown from the table were appalling.piss poor performance.

[Say Mach Number]

220 - it makes perfect sense.

Maybe I was coming at it from a different angle. In the respect that I have heard from around the crewroom that accepting a pay rise undermines Dublin.

But my question was only posed as it would create a dilemma. But you have answered it - in that if we voted to take our payrise then its ok regardless of the what it says to Dublin.

As you say "we would be where we voted" I agree and somehow I think we would looking at our pay rise even if it went to a vote IMHO.

Still not sure I'm explaining myself properly...does this make sense?

[delwy]

Surely the point is that you are going to get the money anyway. Why vote? Answer: voting allows Ryanair to pretend that the increase was voted in following "negotiations". In fact they will shout it as loudly as they can.

In fact, DOB has already shouted loudly to the pilots in Dublin that you are ALL - bar Dublin - going to get 3%.

The vote will not effect things in Dublin directly - but it certainly will effect OTHER pilots in the longer term. This was all explained months ago on REPA. Voting carries the risk of underming your future, not Dublin's.

[220]

I see what you're saying now 'saymachno.'

"if we voted to take our payrise then its ok regardless of the what it says to Dublin". This is not a fair interpretation on what I am saying so let me explain further....

If we were allowed to have a collective opinion and that was to support dublin then we have a self explanatory outcome.

However, as you suggest, we may very well decide to go our own road. If we do then this is the road the majority have chosen and it should be respected. I would not be voting that way but I would accept what the majority voted for with the proviso that I would then have to make a decision 'do I want to be part of a group which have different principles to me'. Life is full of hard decisions! Group decisions occur every day in government, courtrooms, company boardrooms etc etc. Sensible educated people may argue a point but they live with the group decision if it doesn't go their way.

In our case we had a group of individuals go in and negotiate what THEY thought was best for me. Not only does this break every principle of staff representation and collective bargaining, it is the height of rudeness!! I want the opportunity to say what I want to say. An ERC cannot survive based on corridor conversations and reps 'second guessing' what our opinions are. The ERC should be looking at was is being offered and come back to us, at least on paper, but preferably at a town hall type meeting chaired by the erc reps. Then WE can decide if it meets our expectations or not......having DEBATED the issues at hand.

If you open any book on staff associations or the history of collective bargaining you will see that what happened here was a disgrace.

Now to explain how the dublin guys are to take this.....It is in their interest to find out if the STN pilots are prepared to stand behind them. They now know that the company duped a few pilots into negotiating something for themselves and that the rest of the pilots MAY or MAY NOT support them. Surely it is better to know.

I for one would stand behind them totally in order to prevent the continuing erosion of conditions. It is going to be much harder to stand up to the tyrants next year when the STN pilots are getting victimised having sent the DUB guys up the proverbial creek this year!

[BBT]

Apparently the "ERC" in one base - Stansted - are being granted some time to go a local hotel to answer questions. Any chance somebody based in Stansted could ask them how they justify their position?

I have yet to hear that. It would be interesting to hear what they have to say. If anybody knows how they justify their claim to represent a large base without being elected it would be helpful to hear their argument here.

[the grim repa]

as you heard at todays meeting.RESIGN now and hold elections.the raw DEAL has been rejected.

[GGV]

Grim Repa, can you confirm that they were clearly told that they should resign? If so, was it by more than one or two brave souls?

[the grim repa]

yes and yes,most definitely.

[Say Mach Number]

The resignation issue was brought up.

The answer that came back is that there is only one member of the ERC and that is AG. MC and PM are only assisting AG and dont pretend to have any mandate to represent anyone or any thing.

They assist AG and represent themselves. However all three gave an assurance that before any further negotiation there would be a vote to elect an properly mandated ERC elected by the pilots for the pilots.

Think the message got through and I for one take them at their word. At least they are listening.

I also agree that if given a choice of IAPLA/BALPA or a properly elected pilot body I also choose the latter.

A small point but I believe only a fraction of the 300 pilots in STN turned so does that mean the rest are happy!! Are we the only ones who give a s**t?!!