Anti-terrorism measures on aircraft.

[bjm367-80]

Would anyone care to post their or their companies solutions to the new requirements for Anti-terrorism measures on light aircraft. We have started using lockable wheel chocks and they are a bit of a pain. I believe that something as useless as a paddlockable chain to ground is sufficient.

Seems like a waste of time - is anyone else bothering??

[Transition Layer]

Yeah lockable wheel chocks at my joint as well. Take up sh1tloads of extra baggage space though.

What are the alternatives? And no, not everyone is in line with the new measures!

TL

[DeltaSix]

Let me see if I get this right. They are worried that someone might steal the company's aircraft overnight and use it to blow up buildings. I take it like 11 Sept........... now questions is "has any aircraft been stolen in any aerodrome in Australia after the 11 Sept 2001 and used that way ?... I would think they would've done it by now.

All users would be known or somewhat known to someone in the flying school or aero club and would give the key to the locks at his or her request. Now I dont know if I'm missing something here but what would stop this person hiring it and then do the unthinkable ?........ I think this is an over-reaction. Those terrorist did not even need to ask for the keys, not there is one in those planes. If I was a terrorist, I'd hire a pilot and then take-over the plane mid-air by killing the pilot. That's what they did in 9/11.

Even this BS security check that they want to impose on us is a farce. Sorry, I know this has been done to death here but I still cant understand the logic behind this. Its the passengers in QF that they should be screening, not us or locking up the lightie parked in a GA aerodrome.


D6

[turtle]

Looking around Parafield at present a total of about 3 aircraft are bothering to comply with this crap.

Wheel locks apear to be the prefered method here.

[QSK?]

I've just spent 6 weeks travelling around Asia and the Middle East on about 5 different airlines.

On the majority of airlines I flew with, METAL knives and forks were still being served to passengers on the dinner trays.

It was only on the last leg between SIN and MEL that I was suddenly presented with a metal fork and a plastic knife.

What this says to me is that it is only Oz that is overeacting with kneejerk responses to the aviation security threat. DOTARS needs to be subject to a massive reality check.

[Howard Hughes]

I was suddenly presented with a metal fork and a plastic knife.

Of course one could do much more damage with a strategically placed airline fork, than one could ever do with an airline knife!!

Or have I just been watching too many action movies lately?

Cheers, HH.

:ok:

[Capt Hollywood]

As I understand it you have four choices.

1. Wheel clamps
2. Control locks
3. Hangar the aircraft in a secure hangar
4. Physically securing the aircraft to the ground by means of a chain and padlock type device

I guess we are going to have to come up with some form of control lock as our helicopters don't have wheels, we don't have a hangar (yet) and chaining the aircraft to the ground is asking for trouble as it will inevitably lead to an aircraft trying to lift off whilst still chained to the ground. That leaves us with control locks. Can't say as I've ever seen control locks for a helicopter but no doubt they exist somewhere, hate to think what they cost though.

It is simply another example of bureaucrats covering their collective ars*s instead of accepting that the risk of someone pinching aircraft is no greater today than it was prior to Sept 11. Let's face it, flying schools are being watched rather closely these days so if you are of the terrorist persuasion and need a plane wouldn't you just charter a plane complete with pilot to get you most of the way there! Oops, did I say that out loud! :uhoh:

Hollywood :cool:

[DeltaSix]

Hollywood, if I was the terrorist, I wouldnt even think of going to the flying schools and try to commandeer a light aircraft or a helicopter -- . I'd go for something that would inflict maximum damage. As I said in my post, QF pax are the ones they should be screening as this is the known avenue of someone who is either mentally deranged or suicidal.

They are like the Germans in WW2. They were hit where they didnt expect, in Normandy.

These idiots are guarding GA like Fort Knox where they are leaving something wide open. The big jets. That's the one they should be guarding as it has been proven before.

I'd like to know who paid these idiots to come up with something like this.


D6

[Capt Hollywood]

That's the sad part D6, we're paying them!

Hollywood :cool:

[Induced Turbulence]

If some one has gone to the trouble of planning a terrorist act with an aircraft, I dont think a chain and padlock will stop them, or most of the other measures either. Seems a bit overboard to me.

[Richo]

Recieved two glossy brochures from DOTARS in the mail today.

They list some of the acceptable methods of securing aircraft (as mentiond before). I note that all the methods mentioned in the brocure and on the web site are visible from the outside of the aircraft.

At JT the common securing method in use is the Throttle lock. Not visible from the outside and not very obtrusive, but apparently suitable and working.

So don't assume because you can't see a lock one is not fitted.

The whole affair STINKS of Gov overreaction and ass covering. This would not happen in the USA where the whole thing started, US AOPA was apparently shocked that we Aussies would allow the gov to do this.
Good old AOPA Aust, well done. This is just more proof of your complete irrelevance to Aust aviaition.

Richo

[Onan the Clumsy]

4. Physically securing the aircraft to the ground by means of a chain and padlock type device Ha ha. I've seen this done for years now and I have to say, even without a padlock, it's really quite successful at stopping the aircraft from leaving the tie down. :ugh:

What about locking a large chain round the base of the prop?

[Dave Incognito]

I think it is laughable that DOTARS believes a padlocked tie down chain will stop a major terrorist event. The last time I bought new chains for our fleet, the hardware store employee (who insisted on cutting it to length for me) was a middle aged woman armed only with a set of long arm bolt cutters she grabbed straight off the rack.

Surely a person who had learnt the basics of flying, picked out a target and had the will to die for their cause would probably not be overly deterred by having to fork out 80 bucks to buy those same bolt cutters.

:hmm:

[HEALY]

Not seeing a great deal of change at JT. We have wheel locks, and the usual control/door locks. Starting to see a number of rolls of cyclone fencing crop up to be installed.

Interestingly British Airways have started to relax the 'plastic restrictions in the UK,

[Ultralights]

im still waiting for the day when the flight crew of a aircraft at the domestic terminal, disembarks, and chains the aircraft to the terminal building!!!

well ? what about it? as a form of protest?

[Engineer]

Surely you need to look further afield for the answer.

tongue in cheek answer

It is to keep your local hardware store in business, which in turn will help the GDP of the country.

See everyone benifits if 9/11 is flogged to death as much as possible God just seen a flying pig pass my window where is that chain and padlock could be a threat to National Security :{

[Chadzat]

What about birds? I'm sure the idea has been tossed up at DOTARS that any feathered mammal larger than an adult pigeon must be restrained when not in flight otherwise said terrorist may train said bird to fly into buildings?:rolleyes:

[QSK?]

With reference to the DOTARS pamphlets issued to all pilots, the part that really gets me is the words that the Department is "working with the aviation industry" etc etc.

Exactly, which part of the aviation industry did the Department consult on these new measures for GA aircraft? Because, as far as I know, not one GA aircraft/pilot body has agreed with these new measures for securing aircraft or for the implementation of photographic licenses at a cost to the pilot!

C'mon Dotars, someone give me an answer!

[Counter-rotation]

Just received my copy of "Important Security News for GA Operators". This is the biggest bloody joke I have ever seen. I am speechless that this could ever be taken seriously by anyone, anywhere. It is beyond belief...:yuk: :yuk:

The moron(s) responsible should be found and flogged. Perhaps they are the owners of hardware stores, as previously suggested.

If I knew who they were and where they lived, theirs would be the first house I would target in my "killer" light aircraft.

NB "This brouchure is provided for general information only and is not to be read or used as a substitute for legal advice" - if that's not arse covering what is?

I call on anyone who agrees with any of the above, to simply ignore this dribble - which it seems many are doing already.

I say again, what a :mad: joke!! :yuk:

CR...

[Jenna Talia]

QSK?

Sadly, AOPA not only bent over for DOTARSE for this one, but held onto their ankles to make sure good & proper.

One very good reason I will not be renewing my membership.

Absolutely disgraceful. :mad:

[DeltaSix]

AOPA,

Since you wont stand up for us pilots and owners, what bloody good are you ?........

You're happy to take our membership fee for a year but you guys in there are like stunged mullet when real issues needs to be addressed. I WAS one of your members and why you didnt take action against the $200 security fee suggesting that we are a bunch of terrorist - how insulting. (and now this )only suggest that you are a toothless organization.

I just tore up my renewal form for this organization. Instead you will be receiving a letter from me for your ineptness and inaction letting us take this crap from DOT"ARSe" lying down.

What's next ?...... chain our balls to the ground ?

We want an organization that will speak for us and you're not it.


D6

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Jenna Talia

I remember a similar argument after a certain taswegian ran amok with projectile dispenser. You cannot argue against the public good from a minority position. I lost two damn good rifles to the "public good"

Anyway, what do you expect when the whole cluster:mad: is being run by a refugee from the health department.

PS Jenna and D6...You name an organisation that will stop this BS security check:mad: and you can have my 200smakers every two years......if they deliver:E

[Two_dogs]

I seem to have been left out of the loop on this one. I've yet to receive my shiny brochure, and the first I heard of the new requirements was by way of conversation with another pilot, around 25/03, some fifteen days after the requirement. I have yet to be approached for my misdemeanour.

My aircraft lives behind a chain fence and is protected by armed members of the APS. $150 for an aluminium tube and a padlock to lock the throttle. No thanks.

I've also seen locking wheel chocks that don't actually lock to the wheel but simply lock together. One only needs a couple of burly terrorists to lift the nose\push down the tail and slide the lock from beneath the nose wheel.

I for one will continue to implement my usual security measures.... I tend to leave the keys in the unlocked aircraft. This saves the 50 minute return drive home on the odd occasion I have hurried out the door sans keys.

Two Dogs
http://www.avcanada.ca/albums/albums/userpics/11506/thumb_twodogs4.jpg

[Deaf]

OZBUSDRIVER

" remember a similar argument after a certain taswegian ran amok with projectile dispenser. You cannot argue against the public good from a minority position. I lost two damn good rifles to the "public good""'

Remember a police officer hid in a ditch while this was going on so the professionals can protect you:

Remember the 1/1/15 Muslim ice cream man at Broken Hill/Silverton where the local Rifle club dealt with the situation. (Similar Dead)

[OZBUSDRIVER]

On New Year's Day, 1915, Broken Hill became the site of the only outbreak of war hostilities on Australian soil. It began when a trainload of picnickers passed an ice-cream cart flying the Turkish flag at the eastern fringe of the town. Two men fired at the picnickers killing three people and wounding another six - a boy, a girl, three women and an old man. The two gunmen were locals of Turkish origin. They moved on to a cottage where they murdered the occupant and then were confronted by a party of police, soldiers and rifle-club members. After a lengthy battle the men were killed. Today there is a railway truck to mark the spot of the initial encounter (listed on the town's heritage trail) and a replica ice-cream cart at White Rocks, at the northern end of the town, where the shootout occurred.

http://www.walkabout.com.au/locations/NSWBrokenHill.shtml

Just in case anyone is a little confused by Deaf's post.

After the fact, the position the Feds took about gun control made it impossible to argue either way. The end result was that to comply with the new laws, the cost of the licence, the security measures, the difference in laws between states meant that owning my rifles after moving interstate become uneconomical. As a hobbyist, I was not that serious about gun ownership that to own something that would last many lifetimes would cost me more than what the weapons would be worth in licence costs.

Does this sound familiar? It is not the "professionals" who will get hurt here. Costs will be bourn by your employers or your company. Us "hobbyists" will be decimated. To confront head on will not work. The only way to save ourselves is to deflect the regulator toward a more palatable and affordable course. Either that or its RAA until the regulator sences another kill

[Obiwan]

PS Jenna and D6...You name an organisation that will stop this BS security check and you can have my 200smakers every two years......if they deliver.
Seeing as the law was passed with the support of the opposition and only the Democrats even raised questions about it - good luck.

Maybe if you'd been more vocal when this was first proposed we might have been able to stop it.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Waste of time. DOTARS had created another little fifdom in the office of transport security, headed by an ex-health department type (Jobs for the boys??) who knows absolutely squat about what should be done and indeed what other countries have done in the name of national security.

I think their collective security knowledge has been gleened from reading too many spy novels. Paranoid governments have fallen for the "Yes Minister" empire builder types who just cannot waste such an opportunity. To our collective detriment:(

[bushy]

Most single engine aircraft already have a bult in means of disablig the engine.It's called an ignition key.

[Ultralights]

whats that thing called a master switch do?

[Spotlight]

Not sure. Probably not much. Similar to the main switch I guess:p

[rmcdonal]

Didn't some kid fly a 152 or somthing similar into building just after 9/11? I dont think it did much (except went splat and took out one office).
I would sugest that there is the proof that a GA aircraft isn't going to do jack all in the hand of a nutter. Better of hijacking a cement mixer and filling it with fuel, and then driving it to the office of your local member.:ok:
usless the lot of em :yuk:

[Lake Evil]

With all the car bombings abroad will be have to wheel clamp our cars too?

[Obiwan]

rmcdonal

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/01/06/tampa.crash/

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/01/06/tampa.crash/story.tampa.plane.jpg

Didn't make it past the first row of cubicles.

[Buck Rogers]

Because we are made to wheel chock ,clamp and tie down a C150 I wonder what they are making petrol tanker drivers do ?

[kookabat]

Someone said earlier something about going to RAA until DoTaRS find someone else to rip off - according to a letter I received from the Minister's office, pilots of all POWERED aircraft will be subjected to these checks. This is contradicting stuff on the DoTaRS website and almost everything else I've read on the issue... but if it comes direct from the minister's office...

What they're concerned about, as far as I can see, is not necessarily a 'light-plane-into-a-building' Tampa-style incident, but the use of a light plane from a small, unsecured airport to access the airside areas of something served by the bigger fish (eg Canberra). BUT... while at YSCB the other day I needed to use the GA terminal, to get back airside I called airside operations for the code to unlock the gate - the bloke who answered asked me if I had an aircraft airside - yes - "ok the code is blah".

SO WHY BOTHER WITH THE WHOLE SECURITY BULLSH%T WHEN IT'S THAT EASY TO GET AIRSIDE AT A MAJOR AIRPORT???? :confused:

Then again, perhaps I shouldn't post this... if anyone sees it they may get a bright idea to start 'increasing' security at YSCB...:*

[DeltaSix]

oh......good on ya Kookabat.. there goes Canberra.

Not that a silly code nor a padlock would stop a terrorist anyway.


d6

[kookabat]

:{ Oops.



Sorry.....:ouch:

:E :E :E

[Ultralights]

Because we are made to wheel chock ,clamp and tie down a C150 I wonder what they are making petrol tanker drivers do ?

apart from a medical test, and read out the last 4 letters on the board up there,

ABSOLUTLY NOTHING!

He had no authority to get in the plane alone, a government transportation official said.

A ninth-grader at East Lake High School near Tarpon Springs, Florida, Bishop should have had an instructor in the plane with him,



well, cant happen here! we have Photo licences!

oh wait, none of these pilots had actual licences!

[Sunfish]

The kid concerned was on ritalin.

Despite all of the security measures, one wonders why some suitably trained Al Qaeeda type simply cannot go and BUY an aircraft. Do new aircraft owners get an ASIO check? I think not.

Even further, why cannot Al Qaeeda buy half a dozen RAA type kit planes and form a whole squadron?

Even further, are baggage handlers screened by ASIO, perhaps for Camel Suit stealing tendancies?

Even further, what is to stop someone throwing a package over the fence to a screened and searched baggage handler, LAME or whatever?

There seem to be so many holes in the security system that a determined terrorist could exploit, that I wonder why we bother, at least to this bear of very little brain.

[maxgrad]

Lets face it, If someone or some group want to break in to, break up or do anything very bad to aviation and it's components, it just takes time and effort.
Nothing is infallable.

An old e.g. Years ago Ford (I think) came out with these wizbang pin key codes instead of standard keys/locks for cars. A current affair show "found" some car theives and asked them to break into some test cars. From memory took each one around 40 secs.

As much as I hate the idea of lockable chocks and the like I do understand that they are a visual deterant.

So instead I stealing the A/c they just break all the windows, damage or steal things inside, the bugga off.

[SkySista]

Why bother with GA, when you can have a big night out on the town, get totally p!ssed, and go to sleep in a nice comfy Skybed aboard a QF Airbus, conveniently parked right next to the fence, so you don't have to walk...err, stumble... too far...... :E

[Atlas Shrugged]

As much as I hate the idea of lockable chocks and the like I do understand that they are a visual deterant.
A sign on the windscreen saying:

This Aircraft is not CASA Approved for Terrorist Use

would probably be just as effective

[maxgrad]

Does anyone know the ratio of cars stolen that were fitted with steering locks compared to those without?


Those who want to JIHAD into an apartment block using an a/c won't care if it's got chains around the elevators but others????



Some years back in Essendon I arrived at work to see someone had run a cheiftain into another twin causing mega damage, wheel chock lock things MAY have stopped that.

But that sort of rubbish isn't why all this was started is it.

Atlas are you saying there are a/c approved for terrorist use?:E

[Sunfish]

Maxgrad you idiot! Of course there are aircraft approved for terrorist use!

http://i10.ebayimg.com/01/i/03/cf/97/21_1_b.JPG


Terrorists please click here: http://www.airfix.com/frame_set.htm

:O