Recruitment Shortfall...?

[MMEMatty]

Hi all

First, this seemed like the sensible place to post this, but if it needs moving, feel, free, & apologies.

I was down at the Flying Club the other week (i'm a PPL studying for a night rating) and the instructor said he had it on good authority that there was a shortfall in numbers recruited for Air Traffic Control (He didnt say whether he meant NATS, Eurocontrol or what, simply that so and so at the tower at airfield X (i dont want anyone getting a hard time if this is wrong) said there was to be a confirmed shortfall this year, and "almost certainly" one next year.)

Is this true? Air Traffic Control is something i've considered (although i must be honest, my heart does rest at the other end of the radio, but being a weekend pilot would appeal to me) so can anyone confirm this?

Many thanks

Matty

[PPRuNe Radar]

There is a Europe wide shortfall. There has been for years and will be for the foreseeable future.

Numerous ATC managements claim they never saw it coming (duh), whilst recruiting barely keeps up with those who leave the profession, either on retirement or due to other causes. Coupled with the long lead in time for training and validating at an ATC unit and you can see there is no quick fix.

I expect there will be another 'unexpected' rush of people out of the door (in the UK at least) when the pension law changes and ATCOs can leave the service early with a large pot of retirement money.

[Lock n' Load]

Make that a world-wide shortfall....

[rej]

Maybe if NATS and the other trg schools in the UK did not make it so damn expensive to train then more people might go into what is a great occupation.

[Jerricho]

To echo LnL's post rej, at least there is the facility to apply ab-initio with NATS and be paid for the course (self-sponsorship aside). Some countries in the world do not have that luxury and require full payment for a course (granted, the expenses differ somewhat. How much does a course cost these days with NATS if you pay yourself?).

Unofficially I guess the short fall was the driving force behind Canada's "experienced controller" program.

[Topjet]

Check your PM's! :ok:

[A I]

Hey PPRuNe Radar,

Rumour around last week is that NATS have requested the NATS pension fund not to change the rules because of the impact on staffing. If that's the case then there will be a lot of very unhappy old ATCO's like us!!

A I :confused: :(

[gijoe]

If they have a recruitment shortfall then why doesn't NATS increase the upper age for application to be an ATCO?

NATS will be competing with all other employers in a competitive environment in a shrinking pool...and all of this within a sphere of education that is not training people as well as it did in the past.

So how about it NATS? Why not raise the limit from 30?

G :cool:

[jangler909]

Not a problem in Finland. Two most recently graduated courses have had a lot of trouble getting jobs. Three years back we had a nicely working circulation system but later on the number of openings have diminished. Retirement boom is already behind.

According to the latest course recruitment numbers this scenario seems likely to continue in the upcoming years... I wonder whose advantage this is, especially when one's personal success during the course is only a minor factor when applying for a job.

[Gonzo]

AFAIK the problem isn't in getting people to apply, in fact there's a long lead time to get on a course, it's the fact that there are not very many instructors, so there's a max capacity at CATC.

Downward spiral: Less ATCOs, therefore less instructors, therefore less students, therefore less ATCOs.

[Scott Voigt]

No shortage of applicants in the US. Never has been, the only problem we have is getting the govt. to hire people. The waiting list is HUGE.

regards

Scott

[M609]

Sequence of events in management here is something like:

1. Realise that a downturn in traffic post 9/11 made some controllers redundant in 2002.

2. Cry wolf and declare that there is way to many controller, and plan to sack approx 15%.

3. Stop ALL training cold turkey.

4. Start the drawdown, close ACC, move people, start cost saving projects, without realising that this increase the total count of controllers due to project workload.

5. Stop all hire, and allso stop all movement between units (one service provider.....)

Now, 2 years later.....

*Massive shortage of controllers at the ACCs, and a growing problem in ALL towers.
*The majority of controllers get maxed out on overtime regarding the CAA regulations.
*No one can move anywhere, because if even one person get to move, it creates a operational problem on the unit he/she departs, and there is no replacement.
*ACC sectors have to close more and more often (and I mean close, not combine 2) due to lack of controllers on shifts. Airlines are angry.
*One controller sick at one ACC cannot be replaced on duty, since ALL his collauges are maxed on overtime, leading to more sector closures/zerorate
*We try to restart the training with the danes and swedes down in Malmö, but cannot provide instructors, because there is no controllers to spare.
*More importantly, there is no longer a testing scheme for aplicants, because the company fired all persons involved i in it, and there are no extra personel on the units to "come in and do it" as management had planned.
*And yes, since no one can move within Norway, people are starting to resign, moving to the gulf or Europe, accentuating the problem!

Someone wanna come work at a cold place???? :E

Great, now where is my coat........

[runtobarlu]

Jerricho.....

and its failure would you think !!!!!!

[Jerricho]

and its failure would you think

I take it you're referring to the experienced controller program.

And if you are, perhaps you would like to expand on it a little.

[tobzalp]

I think the failure of that program is that Canada is too cold and the only people who benefited greatly out of it were the poms and poms in general are a bunch of whingers. I myself got a spot from that program but turned it down soley on the cold aspect. Dollars wise I was to be exactly the same and my wife would have been better off. Do I regret it?

http://graphics.worldweb.com/PhotoImages/Australia/Gettyworks/VictoriaBridge.jpg

NOPE

[runtobarlu]

Whingers.. you trying to get a rise out of us..

Think that your observations about the weather are probably correct..however my contacts tell me that thats the least of the issues.

[Jerricho]

however my contacts tell me that thats the least of the issues.

Really. I would love to hear what your contacts have to say.

[Lock n' Load]

I think it's fair to say that Jerricho's pretty happy where he is, and so am I. Coming here with the expectation of being treated like a prince/saviour and having not a single hiccough in training is asking to be disappointed. Yup, some of those who've decided to head home have sound reasons for doing so, but I bet some are victims of their own expectations.
The fact is, NATS is not the be-all and end-all of ATC providers. Nav Canada has seven centres and 42 towers, so it's actually a considerably bigger player in ATC.
Besides, here on a controller's salary, it's not impossible to hook your boat/snowmobile trailer to the back of the F150 Lariat Crew Cab (okay, Ram 1500 of you're a Dodge man) and head off for a weekend at your lakeside cabin. Try that in the UK....

[DirtyPierre]

Yeah, but what's the surf like, hey?

[Lock n' Load]

Who needs surf when you've got snow?

[PH-UKU]

At the moment we've got both :D :D :D :D :D

Och aye the noo .................

[Jerricho]

Yeah, but what's the surf like, hey?

Mate, who needs surf when you can waterski in a drainage ditch on the side of the road.....being towed by a car.

[runtobarlu]

and not just any old car..a F150 Lariat Crew Cab...What are we all missing

[Fidgell]

Maybe people move to Canada for the multicultural environment, family opportunites and lack of Joe Mangle types where the only culture youll find is growing in the back of the tinny fridge!!!:p :ok:

Poms only whinge when you guys come over to London, stealing our bar jobs!!!:\

[250 kts]

Just as a matter of interest how many who took jobs with NavCan are still there?-I know of at least 6 who have resigned within the last year or so-and no not all of them are coming back to NATS.

[Fidgell]

From Manchester we lost 1 to Toronto tower, 6 to Toronto Area, 1 to Edmonton and 1 to Winnepeg so far..... and all of those are still there and still loving it. Dont know where the reported problems have been??

[Jerricho]

Of the 5 NATS staff that came to Winnipeg, 2 remain. We also have guy from EGHH and one ex-RAF.

[cossack]

Toronto Tower - Yep, still loving it! Can't complain about work, lifestyle or the weather. I don't think I'd ever move back to the UK. Will have been here 2 years at the end of May.
Dont know where the reported problems have been??
One ex-LHR lasted about 3 months here. IMHO he didn't give it long enough. The first year with the house move and training sucks, but that's true wherever you go. Bring on summer!!!

[Lock n' Load]

quote:Dont know where the reported problems have been??

There may be one or two people (one that I know of) who are genuinely not given a fair go, or at least placed in the wrong training slot for their abilities/personality. I know one case of an extremely capable guy who just couldn't stand waiting around for the training to get going. Other than those cases, I suspect Nav Canada is not at fault as much as peoples' expectations are.
If you come over here as an enroute countroller, expecting to work in an entirely radar sector, just have a look at a map of Canada. It's f%£*&** huge!!! A radar sector here will still involve IFR procedural clearances into and out of airports without towers.
Coming here with "we're here to save you" mentality doesn't go down well with the Canucks, and neither does telling them how much better the UK is! And to be honest, the UK ain't that great a place to be anymore. Overtaxed, over-regulated, overcrowded. Give me the wide open spaces and low(ish) tax economy of Alberta any day!

I know 3 people who have resigned from Nav Canada, and all are good people and, as far as I'm aware, good controllers. One is back in the UK and loving it. The other two are enjoying being here for a while before they head back. They all made the right decision for themselves, but those of us who choose to stay here are also making a sound decision. The lifestyle here is great, and you may as well complain about your ATC employer while drinking a Molson on the sofa in your big house/condo with the 46" TV or between runs at Lake Louise, rather than while wondering how to keep up mortgage payments in the UK...

[Fly Through]

Gosh I want to go and work where L'n'L works, sounds great!

Er...hang on, I already do, funny that,hey?

All places/systems have there problems, here is no worse than anywhere else. Just different, they're training program needs some work but we'll get there eventually (otherwise I'll be off to the sandpit sharpish!)

FT

[Lock n' Load]

Ahh, Fly Through, me old china. Quiz night tonight! Please bring your clever half. Oops, I mean even cleverer half. :ok: