ATPL Holders Vs Available Jobs [Archive]

SteveAv

1st Apr 2005, 16:53

Hi there.

I am still pondering whether to commit my life savings and dive in and train to get my fATPL etc...

Obviously, competition for airline jobs at the end of training (i.e low hour pilots etc..) is fierce and I am wondering what the likelyhood of being able to get a job at the end of it all is like.

What I'd quite like to know, if anyone has any data, is the following;

1) what is the current number of ATPL & fATPL holders in the UK

2) I'd also quite like to know any sensible estimations as to the current number of employed commercial pilots there are in the UK.

3) ..and, an estimate of the total number of people in the UK currently training with the ambition to become an airline pilot.

I recently read a post by one of the moderators saying that there are 10,000 CPL holders in Australia that are not employed (at least as pilots), and I can't help feeling that this is the situation the UK is heading for, with a saturated market resulting in ever decreasing conditions of employment (which from reading pprune seems evident).

The CAA has a publication that shows the number of licence holders in early 2004 but does not give any info as to the employment of them.

Also, if anyone has any sensible assumptions as to the future requirements for pilots, (I know no-one has a crystal ball but if you could consider the current trend in supposed airline expansion but then the offsetting factor of likely continuing rises in fuel costs, etc.). I'd be really interested in hearing them.

I know that there are those amongst you that will say "don't do it, it's not like it used to be" and, there are those that will say "go for it! If you try hard enough you will eventually get a job". But I would really appreciate some unbiased opinions before I 'give up my day job'!

Thanks in advance for any helpful comments you can post.

Steve

:D

EGCC4284

1st Apr 2005, 17:25

I am still pondering whether to commit my life savings and dive in and train to get my fATPL etc...

Really sorry to say this but if you are asking yourself this question, then I wouldn't bother spending any of your money as you obviously don't want to become a pilot enough to take the chance.

If you do decide to go ahead and manage to get to the end of the long long journey of obtaining your licence, you will not be handed a job on a plate.

If you told me in an interview that you wasn't sure about taking the risk many years before, then I would say "Don't call us, we'll call you" and bye bye.

I am going to be a pilot unless my health let's me down. No ifs or buts, its as simple as that. You make your own chances in this world and should stop wanting for everybody else to give you the push towards what you want to do in life.

Your quote makes you the sort of person that employers do not want to employ.

Sorry if you think I'm being a bit hard on you.

SteveAv

1st Apr 2005, 17:55

Don't think you are being too hard at all. Cheers for the honesty.

I'd still like to know some of the data that I requested if anyone has any ideas..??

Thanks.

ChocksAwayUK

1st Apr 2005, 18:08

Hmm.. well i don't have the statistics that you need but i'd just like to express some disagreement with the main thrust of EGCC4284's post.

Being a pilot is all about making sensible decisions given the information that you have available to you and that's what you're doing very well now. I think an airline would overlook someone who jumped into something without any consideration of the consequences. They don't necessarily hire on "how much you want to be a pilot", though determination is a preferred characteristic.

Dynamic Apathy

1st Apr 2005, 18:57

I'll go one step further than Chocks and say that you EG bloody CC are bang out of order.

I presume that you have passed through the mill and are in a job, looking down, or you have a rich Daddy who could cushion the financial blow.

Well not everyone has the wealth to easily achieve their life ambition, and obviously Steve has to be careful hence the request for information before commiting his hard earned money. Just because one loves flying and yearns for a flying job doesn't mean you can throw caution to the wind :*

One the original point of the thread, Steve.........Don't take crap from people to whom money does not appear to be an object. Your money is important and your question is a valid one, but unfortunately I cannot provide any specific help, but hopefully somebody in the know will respond with some useful information.

My sole purpose for adding to this thread was to put EGCC in his or her place and to keep this thread alive and at the top of the heap. You deserve better than the responses like that.

Good luck to the future and I hope you end up making the right decision which suits your circumstances :ok:

Piltdown Man

1st Apr 2005, 19:15

I'll give a guess: 13,000 Commercial Pilots, 1,500 not employed. Of the latter, there are many who are not looking for work and also many, who have looked but have had no success. There are also quite a few that you would not want to employ in any capacity! Let's guess at say 500 actively looking. However, the people in the know should be the Campaign in Gatwick Towers. And maybe they are the people to ask. After all, we do pay their wages!

But don't compare us with Oz. There are many pilots with CPL's (and I'm one) because they are relatively cheap to get. But there are only a few jobs because of the position of Oz and it's relatively small population.

PPRuNe Towers

1st Apr 2005, 19:32

Funny old world,

Every single flight I and your mods make is recorded, analysed and promptly published by the CAA and any of you can go and see the times, delays Etc.

Not a single useful iota of information for wannabees despite every trainee's progress minutely recorded on computer in-house at the Belgrano. Every medical, exam and test is there - including every wrong answer you've made. Even so this is a minute fraction of the data recorded on the flights by each working pilot on the UK commercial register every single week.

Makes you think doesn't it? Who could want you not to have the answers or be able to make an informed decision?

They must love the egcc's of this world.

Regards
Rob

ChocksAwayUK

1st Apr 2005, 19:47

Isn't this all available now as part of the Freedom of Info doodah? Maybe i should show some initiative and get on the blower to the CAA.. or perhaps just have another glass of wine.

silverknapper

1st Apr 2005, 20:16

I guess the point EGCC tried to make is this. If you were to sensibly sit down and work the figures, becoming a pilot may not add up. There are no certainties, and for every guy in a good jet job there must be 20 who didn't make it that far. And lets be honest if it's financial viability you're looking at then a jet job is where you want to be. Any other job's salary can be easily matched or beaten by a career outwith aviation.
But on the other hand if it's for the enjoyment then what the hell, just follow your heart. I did, and currently owe HSBC £35k!

All the best!

Tallbloke

2nd Apr 2005, 07:08

Whilst I might not agree with the tone of egcc's post, I do agree with the sentiment. We sat down and looked at the numbers, loss of earnings in excess of £40k, £30k ish to train and no job at the end of it, it makes no sense to give up the day job to train for a year. There are plenty of ways you can spend £30,000 to retrain yourself to do something else, if changing jobs is all you are looking for.
There has to be something else that drives you to make the change. For me it is a love of all things mechanical, the responsibility of carrying passengers and flying the aircraft, and a grandfather who used to tell my brother and I endless stories of his time in 617 squadron. None of these I consider to be logical reasons to change, but it is something I want to do more than anything else, and now that I have the opportunity, we are taking the plunge and doing it.
Who could want you not to have the answers or be able to make an informed decision? Conspiracy Rob? Who could ever want to pull the wool over our eyes :ok:

DC10FAN

2nd Apr 2005, 09:17

EGCC4284,

As a neutral(but someone who had considered a flying career); I really don't understand your response. Clearly SteveAv wants to be a pilot by the fact that he's prepared to spend his life savings on it. Have you never made an investment in anything? Most people like to judge the likely return on their investment; seems fairly sensible to me. I'm sure he doesn't expect to be handed the job on a plate but his post seems wholly reasonable to me. If the no. of trained pilots far exceeds the jobs available then simple maths dictates that he's less likely to get a job. Regards giving someone a push; I think he is simply asking other peoples' opinions? Again isn't that normal human behaviour?

SteveAv,

Good luck.

Vee One...Rotate

2nd Apr 2005, 09:45

I think SteveAv's original post shows a refreshingly realistic outlook by someone about to take the plunge.

I understand the sentiment of the "You really need to want it more than anything." crowd but maybe, particularly on PPRuNe, people are too quick to label anyone who questions the system or shows the kind of (wholly sensible) slight apprehension at the prospect ahead as not up to or deserving of the task/job.

How many fresh recruits at UK flight schools know less than SteveAv about the realities of the aviation industry? I'd bet it's quite a fair number what with the glossy marketing etc. of many establishments.

I'm currently at the PPL stage and plan to go on to the professional licence myself - I sometimes worry about the financial hurdles and the posible lifestyple I'm letting myself in for but the difference is this: I consider myself fairly well in touch with the realities of this flying lark and and still want to do it. What's worse - wanting it to do it whilst ignorant/dismissive of the reality or wanting to do it being fully aware (as far as possible) of the reality?

It's sad to say that it appears that many a FTO/airline will take adantage of the first type of person...a recurring theme on these pages is people paying for type ratings, interviews, aptitude tests, etc. All the while Ts and Cs seem to drop - a bit of integrity and an unwillingness to jump through EVERY hoop put in front of them, I think, is a good trait in general and especially as a pilot hopeful.

SteveAv will come to his own decision - he's just looking for input - which, to be fair, is what every poster has given him. Personal opinions based on personal experiences. This is why PPRuNe is such a great resource :)

Good luck whatever you do :ok:

Regards,

V1R

Shanwick Shanwick

2nd Apr 2005, 11:13

If you decide to spend the cash on training you'll look back in 20 years from one of four scenarios:

a) Your left seat of a Ryanair 737, earning £45,000 and flying 1200 hours a year due to European Harmonisation. This is your 14th sector today!

b) Your left seat of an EasyJet A319, earning £45,000 and flying 1200 hours a year but with 3 days off a week. This your second JFK today!

c) Your right seat of a One (BA) World AirBo 349, earning £48,000 and flying 1200 hours a year but with 96 year old CSD's and 75year old Captains. It's also 3am in the morning and you're only half way between Aukland and Basingstoke Intl. (They gave up on LHR years ago)

or

d) Your seat in the garden, cold beer in hand, looking up at those who persevered with the proffesion. You're glad you tried it but you're also glad you got out 10 years ago while the going was good.

If you don't, you'll regret it and if you do, you'll wish you hadnt!

reality check

2nd Apr 2005, 11:20

SteveAv

To decide to invest all your money or not in anything you must make an informed and commercial assessment of the risks, which I commend you for doing. No investment should be made from the heart.

To get an ATPL from a good school is going to cost you about £100K by the time you factor in everything. (Please don’t change the thread everyone by costing a budget route).

So in many ways it is like investing in a new business. Many people invest huge amounts of money in a venture but only the most determined succeed. If you can take a £100K hit and survive after then do it, if not then don’t.

There is no way of knowing what the job market will be like when you qualify so this will remain the one factor you cannot answer ‘till you get there. The 6-12 months after you come out of training is critical. You will mainly be in competition with the people you qualify with.

It is difficult to determine how many licence holders are ready to go. I spoke with a very experienced training Capt who has been instrumental in pilot recruitment and training and is a big name in the low cost carriers. His view was that at any time there are about 800 low hour pilots in the UK fully current. During a peek period they could all get jobs and in a trough none will. The ‘800 pool’ is cyclic as people fail to remain current and are replaced by new people.

I\'ve just read a thread from mikepops, namely \'Funny/rude response from airline\'.

Take note of the complete hash he is making of getting a job. People like him will be your competion which should be a comforting thought!

CarltonBrowne the FO

2nd Apr 2005, 14:28

It is worth noting, there is an extra element of risk with self-sponsored training.
Under the old "self improver" route of instructing, etc, it did not really harm your chances if it took several years to get that first airline job- you kept current by instructing or whatever, and in fact kept improving your skills and airmanship. (Up to a point- after perhaps 1500-2000 hours in light aircraft, you would gradually become a less viable training prospect. However, after that many hours, the skills would be sufficiently ingrained you could reasonably fly less often without a problem).
Unfortunately, while the JAR CPL/fATPL course does produce graduates with a perfectly adequate skill level, these graduates have a short "shelf life." From the day you finish the course, your skills start to degrade as you become less current. I am not privy to the maximum time my employer considers it viable to hire a graduate after his course completion date, but I do know there a limit.
Unless you have sufficiently robust finances to allow either an Instructor Rating course after the CPL, or regular PPL flying in an advanced aircraft, you need to be aware that the expensive asset you purchase, is a rapidly depreciating asset. This is among the reasons why it is rumoured that HSBC among others is soon to stop lending money for pilot training (at the levels required for a JAR CPL/IR course anyway).

SteveAv

2nd Apr 2005, 16:47

I'd just like to say a quick thanks to those of you who have given some very good honest opinions. It was very gratifying to see that there are so many members on this site able to be objective and supportive.

I do desperately want to be an airline pilot but, as with most things in life, you have to weigh up the 'risk Vs reward' associated with taking such a big (financial) step. At the end of the day it all boils down to getting a job and earning money, (well it does if you have to support yourself), regardless of how much you enjoy what you're doing.

Chocksaway... I especially agree with your statement that being a pilot requires the ability to make informed decisions using all available information, as opposed to diving in feet first! I just hope airline employers are able differentiate between blind passion and the ability to be a good pilot.

It is obviously a personal decision I need to make. I just hope I make the 'right' one!!!

Out of interest, what is the Campaign at Gatwick Towers?

Cheers again guys and gals. If anyone does have any further data it would be good to check it out.

Steve.

fernytickles

2nd Apr 2005, 19:29

SteveAv

I think they mean the CAA, sometimes known as the Campaign against Aviation.

For my part, I decided to go ahead with learning to fly because I didn't want to reach my deathbed (wherever and whenever that may be) regretting that I'd never at least tried. So far, no regrets whatsoever. But don't forget, airline flying is not the only option once you've got all those licences. There are so many facets in aviation and all of them need pilots - even just reading all the different forum names on here gives you half an inkling into how many different places you can find work.

Good luck whatever decision you make.

father murry

3rd Apr 2005, 11:42

EGCC4284 what a totally pompus burke you are! The geezer is just asking a pretty sensible question in my opinion.

May Pope John Paul II rest in peace.

cavortingcheetah

3rd Apr 2005, 11:56

:) Shanwick Shanwick, Wherefore art thou?
That was cute, apposite and bang to rights with the possibility of an exception or two.
He could be earning the equivalent of £120k pa, sitting by the pool with the hosties in Oahu, splendiferous in his four bared (barred ?) scants with a rum collins to hand. He might be secure in the knowledge that his little property sideline in Micheldever was going well and that his wife hadn't a clue about Doris, or Prudence or Jane.
It could, of course, all blow up anyway one day when he failed a medical and then remembered that hubris and the pride in his immortal body had prevented the coverage of adequate insurance to cover that eventuality.
Sic transit gloria mundi.
Farewell also to a very great man. John 11.
:{

:p While I think of it. I have been many types of pilot.
Do not fall into the little trap of only wanting to be an airline pilot.
That\'s a bit like me syaing \'I want to drive a Roller for Rent a Wreck.\'
You can have an aweful lot of fun flying far more sophisticated equipment into much more interesting places than any of the good old boys who fly for good old BA or Virgin.
Airlines is neither the Alpha, nor by any means the Omega. It\'s just a bit of good old socialist nomenclatura. What Ho. Pass the EFIS.:=

rapg1000

3rd Apr 2005, 16:19

EGCC4284

3rd Apr 2005, 19:18

SteveAv

First of all I would like to say that my post was not intended to be nasty in any way.

I apologise to anyone who took it that way.

The point I was trying to get across is that the competition for employment at the end of many months or years of training is like no other profession.

Last winter, City Express advertised on their web site for pilots. They had 1200 replies for 5 positions.

Your chances of getting a job with them may be very slim, but this does not mean it's impossible.

I think the key to getting your first break is by getting a job airside, say as a dispatcher or in op's, and then networking as much as possible.

You should then treat every encounter as if it's with your future boss. You just never know who you may see sitting on the other side of the interview desk.

Ask yourself do you really want to be a commercial pilot and, if the answer is yes, get on with it, believe in yourself and ignore everybody who tries to tell you any different.

I am 38 years old this year and hoping to take my CPL skill's test in the next couple of weeks followed by my IR in May. It's taken me since August 1999 to get to this stage, due to the fact of working full time doing a 50 - 60 hours a week shiftwork job. Spent my savings and have remorgaged the house to pay for it. £30,000+. (very supportive wife)

It took me just over 3 years to get the ATPL exams done with Bristol due to working full time and I used all my holidays in the process. Not had a holiday with my family since time began.

But you know something, like I said in my original post, I am going to be a pilot unless my health lets me down. No ifs or buts, it's as simple as that.

I am absolutely adamant that one day I will be flying commercially unless I lose my licence due to ill health.

Think positive, follow your heart and never give up.

Aim high on your list and work down and not bottom of your list and up.

jarops

3rd Apr 2005, 20:28

I am an Airline Captain, flying B757. I took the change you are talking about in 1990. That was very difficult time in aviation, no jobs available.

I stayed on my decision and went all the way. This process took time and effort. Many of my friends who did the training at the same time never qualified. The gave up because the life was too damn hard to find a job as a pilot!

Today, with JAR the things are better for the pilots in Europe. More expensive though, but less pilots available and the retirements opens jobs more and more. Also, there is less pilots seeking into this job due to increasing training costs! But, you have to make the decision and go all the way. CPL??...ok...finish your ATPL courses, do MCC and all what the airlines need and you will find a job. REMEMBER it's all about you.

I used to be in marketing business, there is a similarity. You, as a pilot will sell your self to the company like any other product you could think about. It's not what you can achieve by joining a certain airline, but what the airline can have out of you!!!! You have to be ambitious and prepared. While studing, try to get contacts with an airline and tell the Chief Pilot or who ever is in charge in that particular company of your status. Remind them, and when you have done with your education you let them know. They will appreciate your efforts. This is just one example, but you have to stay "tuned".

It's big money you talk about. But, if you have the quality needed, this job will pay it off. Terms and Conditions are getting less attractive on these days, but that is the trend of the entire aviation world.

Sometimes you have to take a step back to make 2 forward! Only tip I can give you is: Ask your self if you really want to give up a lot, then, maybe you will get reward at the end. It's HARD to make it through, but....it's up tp you.

Ropey Pilot

4th Apr 2005, 10:37

SteveAv,

Given your initial question was about jobs and unemployed CPL's in the UK I don't think that anyone has alluded to the fact that you don't have to be British to take a job with a UK company so that makes even more people vying for the same job. Just listening to the airwaves where commercial traffic roams will illustrate that. You just have to have the right to work in the UK, a JAR licence and have the opinion that T&C's here are better than your own country. Not that there is a problem with that - if you want to apply for a job with Lufthansa, SAS, Iberia etc feel free....

(From what I gather Ryanair is a particularly good example of that - and I know that Eire is not part of the UK but it illustrates the point)

If a foreign airline goes under, expect the queue of new joiners for an airline who fly the same type to get a bit longer (with the low of hour remaining at the back)

Good luck to you whatever you decide.

RP:ok:

Flypuppy

4th Apr 2005, 11:07

There is probably enough new positions for 75-100 people (to account for expansion or new start ups, in a good year), and movement further up the food chain accounts for probably about 300 places for more experienced bods moving out of night freight/instructing/regional turbo props (again in a good year).

So all in all there is probably not much more requirement than 400 jobs per year available for new pilots This equates roughly to the output of 1 mid sized flying school.

High Wing Drifter

4th Apr 2005, 11:38

As a rough and somewhat ignorant estimate I guess that each new aircraft will need 8 new flight crew to keep the aircraft flying most of the year and to account for sickness. Therefore, in these times I think that 100 fresh faces is possibly a little pessimistic.

father murry

4th Apr 2005, 12:09

EGCC4284

Understood. Best of luck to you. I would certainly bet a sectors `perdiems` you will will indeed get there.

Flypuppy

4th Apr 2005, 12:37

HWD,

The figures I quote are a rough average, and based on nothing more than observation of the UK airline industry over the last 7-8 years.

The past year has been a little exceptional, I guess, where airlines are trying to make up the lost ground when they did little or no recruiting post 11/09/01.

My totally unscientific and unverified numbers are probably not going to be too far off the mark. Maybe with some more knowledge and inside info could put me straight?

RVR800

5th Apr 2005, 10:05

The CAA are naturally coy about revealing pilot progression stats and are so are selective in the data they present - they dont want revenue affected.

i.e. Those exam halls may become thinner if the truth was outed

Addy

5th Apr 2005, 11:34

I applied to a major airline who recently advertised for F/O's with 500 hrs. Upon emailing the recruitment manager a week or so later, I got the reply 'I have received more than 1500 applications'.......

I guess theres quite a lot of us out there....

I suppose the airline you're talking about is BMI Regional? ;) Anyway, not the point I was going to make, my point is that the good man is asking about pilots in the UK..I know it's not exactly the best question the man could ask, since UK airlines do not only recruit UK pilots. For example I also applied to this UK airline, and I'm not from the UK, and I don't think I'm the only non-UK citizen applying for UK jobs ;)

so the 1500 jobless pilots in the UK could well be the correct figure, but there are lots more outside of the UK who can work in the UK, which makes the market just a little bit worse for you guys ;)

RVR800

6th Apr 2005, 09:29

Yes thats a good point....

The JAA has inceased cost, time and difficulty levels but paradoxicaly reduced opportunities for UK Pilots due to increased competition

Low intersest rates has fuelled this mini-boom we are having -
when the rates rise as they always do - then we may see some carnage matey... Oil prices wont help either..

EGCC4284

6th Apr 2005, 12:34

I was lucky enough to of jumped on the property ladder about 13 years ago which meant last year I had a lot of capital tied up in our house.

Not only is it very difficult these days for first time buyers to get onto the property ladder, but I would guess that there's not too many wannabes around with spare cash tied up in property that can released to help fund their dream.

How is a modern 21 year old still living at home with their parents going to raise the £30,000 +

How long would it take some 20+ year olds to save this much cash in today's average day job with today's salaries.

Give it 5 -10 years and the numbers of self improvers may start to dry up just like flying instructors seem to be doing right now.

I remember 12 years ago when I started my so called career as a long distance lorry driver, I was doing all the hours God sends and received poor pay. Employers attitude was "if you don't like it, there's the gate" crap.

Trying to get a decant job driving for a supermarket giant like Tesco's, Asda, Morrison's Etc or for some of the car carrying company's or even on the petrol delivering jobs with Shell, Esso, BP etc etc was like dead mans shoes. You had to of had a relative or friend working there to get you in.

Then the good old government made it a bit more difficult to obtain your HGV class 1 driving licence which meant you had to drive a smaller size HGV's (class 3's) for a period of time ( 1 or 2 years I think ) before you could then go onto take your test on the Articulated vehicles (class 1's) driving test.

With there being very very little work around for HGV class 3 drivers, nobody required them and lack of need along with the poor treatment received by all meant very few bothered coming into the industry which has now caused one of the biggest shortfalls in the transport industry for years.

That's why the has been a boom over the last 5 years of HGV driver agencies advertising in newspapers jumping on the bandwagon of the shortage and trying to make a killing by taking a slice of cake out of the mega demand. HGV drivers wages have nearly doubled in the last 10 years.

HGV driver are now in the driving seat and are beginning to choose who they work for.

When I hear story's of the Irish low cost and others treating the pilots like they are idiots, I think of how things can change in a space of 5 to 10 years in the favour of the work force and I hope that's what's going to happen in aviation.

Hopefully the terms and conditions will take a U turn for the best and the rates for the job may go through the roof especially for new starters going onto their first turbo prop job.

Pilots especially very experienced ones are as far as I'm concerned a very expensive assets like aircraft and should be treated with the respect they deserve from employers before they start moving on to wherever the grass starts to be greener first..

One other thing for sure, I'm NOT paying in advance for a type rating. I do not have any problems with being bonded to a company for a few years but that's were I draw the line. I have already spent a fortune.

Am I talking rubbish???????

Apologies for poor English and spelling, left school with not a lot.

father murry

No offence taken and thanks for acknowledging with a second posting.

I was not going to lower myself to spoiling a good thread by getting into an argument with anybody who has a right to post their views here on pprune.

This is what it's all about, sharing views, knowledge and opinions.

Lolo737

6th Apr 2005, 22:45

Pilots especially very experienced ones are as far as I'm concerned a very expensive assets like aircraft and should be treated with the respect they deserve from employers before they start moving on to wherever the grass starts to be greener first..

Couldn't agree more!

On a similar note - I read a thing on a small operators website the other day saying that 'we' - self funding fATPL holders - effectively subsidise the industry by paying for our own training and therefore contribute keeping the cost of air travel affordable for everyone.

Interesting way to look at all the hard work we've put in! (Not to mention all the money we've spent)

Before anyone has a go....I really dont think we deserve to be handed a job on a plate....I realise many of the people we all hope to be recruited by have been in our situation - I bet its a rare thing to hear a Chief Pilot/Flight Ops director say they walked straight into a job after their training.... Its just the way it is right now.

What irks me bigtime is that companies dont bother to reply to you at all. I mean, come on, would it spell financial ruin to employ a student/schoolkid in a Saturday job paying a fiver an hour and ask them to simply send out the thanks but no thanks letters to us as their only duty? (daft idea, but you get my point)

One other thing for sure, I'm NOT paying in advance for a type rating. I do not have any problems with being bonded to a company for a few years but that's were I draw the line. I have already spent a fortune.

Am I talking rubbish???????

No!!
The moneys got to run out sometime!!

We'll get there....It would just be nice if we got any sense at all that the airlines/operators realised that we've all given up a lot for this.

I would feel like Id won the lottery if I was offered a flying job right now, but they should feel just as lucky that 'we' are out there and willing to keep trying! (And a letter would be appreciated!)

Sparticus

12th Apr 2005, 17:19

Im always amazed by how many new guys are coming into the industry. I would guess that its much easier to finance a cpl with either the bank or remortgage than it was 10 years ago.

I have to say when I gave up a good job to become a flying instructor I decided it was something I had to do. I didnt want to spend my life wondering what could have been and wanted to live my dream.

I now fly a medium short haul jet. Last week alone I did 55hrs duty. Im broke, constantly tired, fed up of having no hobbies, no weekends, cant go to weddings, funerals or even the dentist. Having moved twice allready with this company its likely the company is going to move me once again. Its hard for my wife, kids and myself. Its difficult to put any roots down and I even avoid buying large items of furniture so its easier to move house. Pretty soon the company is will have to start putting prozac in our coffee!

I have been trying to get a new job but even with a good few thousand jet hours no success yet. There are many downsides to being a pilot and if you have a reasonable job allready it may take many years to make all the money back. Been flying commercially for seven years but if I could find the right opportunity would leave tomorrow.

Its not a career to take lightly.

RVR800

13th Apr 2005, 09:17

Nice views of Europe from the office window
Professional job that commands respect (from many not all)
Good pay for some.

Unfortunately the downside for many is the early starts
late finishes & long days. Weekend working and sitting
next to somebody you dont know that well for hours on
end.

The novelty wears off for some...

Its not a very family friendly job. .. Its a shame more part time positions aren't available so that the work-life balance thing is
sorted... although that would make paying off loans more difficult..

Wee Weasley Welshman

19th Apr 2005, 06:43

Since 1945 we have never ever run out of pilots - there is seemingly, and regretably, and inexhaustable supply!

Whatever number you crunch the fact is there will be at least 10 other equally qualified bright talented pleasant Others applying and in the running for it. So its never going to be easy.

Post Sept 11th it was practically impossible for 18 months to get a job. Then for a year it was very hard. Now it has become hard.

Its therefore not a bad time to be in or be starting training. It'll probably be even better in a years time.

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Looking into the PPRuNe Crystal Ball I see some interesting swirls of mist:

The numbers of people able and willing to self sponsor an ATPL course may dramatically fall in the coming years.

The vast majority of self sponsors are using money taken out of property (their own or their parents) and borrowed from the banks as career loans. Lets fast forward 18 months and put interest rates back at their historical norm of 6% and lets knock a very modest 10% of house prices. We'll also assume that the UK economy has faltered slightly from its Longest Period Of Growth In History.

1) Mum and Dad will not feel comfortable with remortgaging the house for Junior when its going down in value.

2) Juniors house bought anytime since 2002 will be worth less than he paid for it with a tiny deposit so there is no equity there.

3) Everyone is groaning under the weight of mortgage repayments anyway.

4) Banks will be very very careful with issuing debt to people. A 'business plan' to become and airline pilot is going to be a very hard sell.

5) The cheaper North American flight training route has all but been killed off by the ramification of Sept11th.

6) The combined cost of an Integrated ATPL course followed by a £23k self bonded loan to join an airline cadet scheme is now in the region of £100,000. This is simply too much money to justify when the take-home pay from such a job will be about £2,600 a month average for the first 10 years. With a BoE base rate at 6% you would be paying for a straight loan something like 7.9% £100k over 10 years would therefore cost £1196 a month to repay. Knock off your utilities, car, council tax, rent and food and you are going to be crippled for a decade.

7) Flying training is set to become more expensive. The whole fleet of UK training aircraft now has an average build date of 1985. Instructors with experience are now becoming very rare indeed. To attract experienced instructors to stay is going to take more money and better terms and conditions.

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Cheers

WWW

FougaMagister

19th Apr 2005, 06:56

The question I'm asking myself these days is rather how many of these (frozen) ATPL holders are readily employable at short notice, in other words what the proportion is of applicants whose ratings are actually in check and who are in flying/sim practice with their knowledge topped up?

I suspect every airline/operator that receives 100s of CVs can't know how many of them come from people who would have to do some crash-course not only for the interview, but also to be able to present a logbook and licence with the right dates on...

jamestkirk

19th Apr 2005, 11:04

Really interesting thread.

I too am in the same position. Qualified last August. No job. No sign of hope. But, half way through an FI course. I recommend Goodwodd Flying School, very professional.

I sincerely hope that what some of you are saying is true. The amount of rumours that the market is picking up is encouraging. Although, when you hear of 1000,1200 or 1500! applications for jobs, it's difficult to remain optimistic.

The fact that we are all still trying to land that job with the amount of bad press out there and not given up, is a credit to us all.

I do however find it amusing that we are in one of the worst industries to find work in (probably with the exceptioon of acting) and can laugh about it.

Has anyone experienced the following:

1. Sitting in a pub telling people you have sent x 100 number of CVs and get no/little response apart from Please F*uck Off letters - then laugh about it while your drinking companion sits there is disbelief.

2. Sitting in a bar (well we are the 3rd highest drinkers) telling people that you called a training captain and he said to you "how many hours?, How old?, NO CHANCE" - then laugh about it while your drinking companion sits there is disbelief.

3. Sitting in a trendy cafe (probably having a Gin and Tonic) telling people that you are a trained professional pilot but currently work in a call centre for £5.85ph. Or even worse, teach people to fly for £12 ph flying. - then laugh about it while your drinking companion sits there is disbelief

4. Or just run into people that have not seen you for a while because you have been training and say, "you've put on weight".
You-re thinking "up yours scary face", but say "have i".

It just goes to show that being a pilot is not all sex, fast cars, all year tans and rock and roll.

Addy

19th Apr 2005, 11:36

Has anyone experienced the following:

1. Sitting in a pub telling people you have sent x 100 number of CVs and get no/little response apart from Please F*uck Off letters - then laugh about it while your drinking companion sits there is disbelief.

2. Sitting in a bar (well we are the 3rd highest drinkers) telling people that you called a training captain and he said to you "how many hours?, How old?, NO CHANCE" - then laugh about it while your drinking companion sits there is disbelief.

3. Sitting in a trendy cafe (probably having a Gin and Tonic) telling people that you are a trained professional pilot but currently work in a call centre for ?.85ph. Or even worse, teach people to fly for ?2 ph flying. - then laugh about it while your drinking companion sits there is disbelief

4. Or just run into people that have not seen you for a while because you have been training and say, "you've put on weight".
You-re thinking "up yours scary face", but say "have i".

It just goes to show that being a pilot is not all sex, fast cars, all year tans and rock and roll.

Been there done that. Bad thing is though, other people tend to laugh about it after a while, too. Ah well, I've said I'm not worried about getting the job for about 3 years now, and I stay with that thought...

Even though companies ask for 2500 TT with TR and 500 on type instead of the 600TT no TR nothing on type I have to offer, hey at least they are asking for people ;)

spaceman1000

19th Apr 2005, 14:18

if there is a "shortage" like WWW say, do not you think they will hire foreign pilots from US, canada, and Australia" and once again, we will have it deep in the $%#%$ !!!

here in france, we are so pissed that we reserve a little surprise for the 29th May.
I really think our politicians do nothing for their citizen. The guy from the previous post, say at least they hire people. Do you think they will really hire you and not a foreign guys with 3000h jet.
all I see, this world is for US people.if you go there, you can see most guys have a job, and they pay 3 times less what we pay here for a JAA license.

I think this situation is totally unfair, and Europe is loosing everyday against country who dont charge 20%tax on a training like england did.

keep tuned the 29th May, we will have a good laugh!

scroggs

19th Apr 2005, 14:50

Althoug this isn't directly relevant to Wannabes, Virgin is currently recruiting about 70 new pilots a year. These pilots need to have a minimum of 3000 hours commercial or military jet experience. You wouldn't think that there are very many people out there who have that kind of experience, but we had (and are still receiving) thousands of applications. Now, I know Virgin is 'flavour of the month', but this is crazy!

Thing is, quite a few - though far from a majority - of these applicants are currently unemployed, so their success (should they achieve it) makes no difference to the people below them in the wannabe pile. Also, quite a few don't match the qualification requirements and so are rejected out of hand - but they're still looking!

Anecdotal evidence from other recruiting airlines suggests that applications for each new job are at historically high levels. In other words, there are still loads of you out there competing for each post. Inevitably, some - maybe many - will never succeed as their ability to fund currency flying while servicing their loans defeats them and they look to another field. My gut feeling is that there are quite a few of these...

There are no statistics, but I'd say that only the most determined (and the luckiest) will succeed.

Scroggs

spaceman1000

19th Apr 2005, 16:47

mmmh, it is what I have said.They charge us so much here in europe, that most of us are forced to make another job.It is why we have to give up!

I have never spent one dollar in tax in the USA, no landing fee, no parking fee,.no...when I go there to fly.

How can we be competitive on a market when we have first to think how we are going to pay the governnment.

Airlines ask 500hours jet, if I did not have to pay all these taxes to get our JAA licenses, maybe we could have saved some cash to pay these 500hours jet.
the result is: lot of unemployed pilots, where in return, the government have to find other pilots (to attract), to tax them, to pay unemployment benefits...It is simply a catch 22.

in europe, we do not try to find a solution, we just think we can solve a problem by increasing taxes.sad Europe!