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ORAC
1st Apr 2005, 04:34
Daily Telegraph: RAF 'not good enough' for SAS parachute training

The Special Air Service is to move its parachute training to the United States because it believes that the Royal Air Force no longer has the skills to train its soldiers in Britain. SAS officers and the Parachute Regiment have accused the RAF of being more interested in preserving "jobs for the boys" than providing adequate parachute training for live operations, according to a leaked e-mail.......

A Special Forces e-mail passed to The Telegraph, titled "What is going on with Britain's parachute training school?", said the SAS "in exasperation" had withdrawn from the RAF's High Altitude Low Opening (Halo) course to train with the US special forces at Fort Bragg. The SAS and members of the Paras' Pathfinders platoon use Halo as a highly-skilled method to drop behind enemy lines.

Matters came to a head when the SAS "had enough of asking for the course to be updated to prepare troopers more realistically for the hard business of jumping from 25,000 feet at night, with large operational loads, onto dark and unmarked drop zones". This "shocked the RAF out of its complacency" and a new course was devised at the parachute training school in Brize Norton, Oxon. But, the e-mail said, RAF officers at the Parachute Department headquarters in High Wycombe "have not delivered the end product".

"Those in the know at Hereford [where the SAS is based] will tell you that this is because they do not understand the difficulties of jumping on to unmarked DZs [Drop Zones] at night because they have never done it." While RAF officers talked about it, very few did "hard-core" parachuting familiar to the SAS's air troop. "Yet, those officers would be the first to try to bask in the reflected glory of the SAS, often implying they were some form of superior being as they 'taught the SAS'," the e-mail added.

Britain is unique in having its parachute training controlled by officers from a branch with no operational experience, the RAF, to train the Paras, Royal Marines and SAS. While the NCO instructors "are well respected as pure parachutists" the Army has bitterly complained that not enough thought is given to teaching operational skills. There appeared to be some movement towards allowing Army instructors in when Wg Cdr Nigel Gorman, the parachute school's head, supported the proposal. But at High Wycombe "this was seen as a threat to the whole business of jobs for the boys", the e-mail said.

Wg Cdr Gorman, who the e-mail called "a breath of fresh air for the operational community", is now facing a disciplinary tribunal on bullying and corruption charges made by colleagues last December.

A source at the Ministry of Defence's Directorate of Air Operations said a five-year study had recommended to the director of Special Forces and the Parachute Regiment's commander that more instructors were needed from "an operational background". A senior Parachute Regiment officer criticised the "flat earth society" in the RAF who did not want change. "They want more time training themselves than those who are doing a job in the front line," he said. "They are not providing us with the right sort of training."

An MoD spokesman said all the parachute courses were under constant evaluation to ensure that they met the correct standards. "The Parachute Training School works very closely with all users to develop appropriate and tailor-made courses," she added. While there were no immediate plans to introduce instructors from the Army or Royal Navy, "suitably qualified instructors could be considered in the future".

It is also believed that training could be privatised with a contract going to Serco, a civilian company. The MoD said there were no plans to involve external contractors or "civilianise" RAF instructors.

Pilgrim101
1st Apr 2005, 05:44
So the headline should really read "SAS not dropped by RAF" ? ;)

A leaked memo eh ? ........ Well, at least its not a book.

la dame blanche
1st Apr 2005, 06:37
The RAF "basking in reflected glory?"

But thats what they do, thats their bag..... without that theyre nought!

Zoom
1st Apr 2005, 06:40
If the DT is correct, it looks as if HQSTC is in the wrong here. This is a very specialised requirement requiring the very best resources and training. The SAS have done the right thing if the RAF can't/won't provide what they need.

Any pongoes out there like to comment on contracting para training out to civvy street?

AllTrimDoubt
1st Apr 2005, 06:44
"Good heavens Carruthers...you mean these Brown Jobs want more than the tethered balloon thingy? Absolutely not old chap! Why, they'll be asking us to disband the UAS system next!":)

Divergent Phugoid!
1st Apr 2005, 06:54
ORAC,
Did hear something along the same lines but the training establishment was Pilar Lofo in Itally instead.

:ok: :ok:

noisy
1st Apr 2005, 08:15
Happy 87th birthday RAF!

The jokes have to stop before the next defence review.

airborne_artist
1st Apr 2005, 09:57
The MoD said there were no plans to involve external contractors or "civilianise" RAF instructors

My sources tell me that there are discussions in progress investigating what aspects of PTS could be privatised.

My own experience is that the SF-attached PJIs were as keen as mustard, but held back by the attitudes of their "management".

Very recently I've been organising a parachuting and re-union w/e (static line only) - and surprise, surprise, RAF having none of it on any of their "manor". RN only too happy to help and have given us an airfield for 24 hours, no probs.

c130jbloke
1st Apr 2005, 11:44
Well what do you expect when the officer cadre of PTS have absolutely no war role, and PTS seems unique in having 3 Flt Lts for every Sgt out on the floor.

SASless
1st Apr 2005, 12:06
If they cannot provide the training....can they provide the aerial support needed for actual ops? One thing about it.....there is more than a little bit of parachuting done at Fort Bragg. It starts with the 18th Airborne Corps Commander and goes down the chain....not to mention the SF commands, and the SF School.

Tell the lads to visit the jump club at Raeford Airport on their time off....great fun there...good food too....a drink might be found too.

Pontius Navigator
1st Apr 2005, 14:39
AFAIK the SAS quote:

"Yet, those officers would be the first to try to bask in the reflected glory of the SAS, often implying they were some form of superior being as they 'taught the SAS'," the e-mail added

Is right on the money. We had a first class presentation by an ex-PTS officer. He illustrated his talk with superb slides and tails of dearing do (SIC) and said that he and the PJIs tried out all the parachutes and techniques before letting the pongoes use the new kit.

Yup they definitely thought they were the bees knees as they got to do all the trials and testing.

Stan Bydike
1st Apr 2005, 16:44
Para dets go an awful lot better without the parachutists.:}

Grimweasel
1st Apr 2005, 17:18
PJI's...Oh dear a dying trade me thinks. Along with the PTI trade that they draw from. That'll be civilianised soon, cheaper.#
Never come across such a bunch of self-centred posers in all my life... you can bet your bottom dollar they will not lend a hand unloading etc.
Too busy by the pool tanning....
Just deserts me thinks!!

16 blades
1st Apr 2005, 21:04
Better still, bin the whole bloody branch and spend the money on enough aircraft to support the training task AND the operational task at the same time. At the moment, we struggle to do both.

16B

SASless
1st Apr 2005, 21:27
Does the Tele program..."Keeping up Appearances" ring a bell?

Pilgrim101
2nd Apr 2005, 05:10
I'm with Chutley on this one - more mountain Bikes and fewer handlebars :E

Anyway, most of the real jumping is done from serviceable aircraft of another hue as the old joke goes. How many of them do the RAF have now ? :8

Incredibly funny jokes aside, another indictment of today's lack of joined up management I think. :ouch:

Pontius Navigator
2nd Apr 2005, 14:57
Chutley, 'blokes in tracksuits'? In the fitness suite we had a bird sans tracksuite. Now that got the blokes in. Shame is she married one of the customers and he took her back to Italy with him.

Her replacement OTOH kept everyone out of the suite!

Iceicleman
2nd Apr 2005, 18:05
Perhaps the hooligans near the Welsh border will get someone to teach them how to shoot straight, and avoid shooting each other. I can remember when 2 of them missed their targets and the bullets riccochetted back into themselves.

Job for professionals, like RAF Regt instructors perhaps?

L J R
2nd Apr 2005, 18:34
Have they ever considered asking good old thirsty six at RAAF Richmond.....been dooin it for years (at least 20)....or is that a well kept rumour....


Learmonth at night from hi level with no lights is a very dark place indeed.



.

reacher
3rd Apr 2005, 06:38
LJR: shhhh dont let it out fo the bag, old thirsty is streched enough as it is atm.

inditrees
3rd Apr 2005, 12:55
Icicleman,
The RAF regiment is for those poor unfortunates who have been turned down by the infantry for being to stupid, and are kept on a camp behind the wire to stop them getting lost and wandering off.

Shuperstar Loadie
3rd Apr 2005, 20:23
Mmm blokes in blue hats n big taches that think a rifle is going through your mates kit or blokes that live in H or Poole or other places that have been there, done it and occosionally shoot at each other???? Thats a hard one NOT!!!

Always ask the blokes that do the job and they tend to point you in the right direction!!!

Ps, Civilian loadie but woz in the green machine and please don't go Rock bashing as they do a fine job (That woz hard coming from an ex pongo!)

SL :cool:

angryape
3rd Apr 2005, 22:03
Dear Mr Inditrees

It is with great pleasure i wish to invite you to the Honnington Naffi,to discuss your issues with some members of our welcome commitee...im sure your views will be thoroughly scrutinized and shall enjoy a good old KNEES-UP:ok:

yours
act Sgt Pete Dongworth.

(yes you may source my name,and ask for me personally,ill look foward too it)

diginagain
3rd Apr 2005, 22:51
Job for professionals, like RAF Regt instructors perhaps?

Oxymoron, anyone?

L J R
3rd Apr 2005, 22:54
Hey angry & in the trees,

Tell me how the meeting went...

Pilgrim101
4th Apr 2005, 06:07
angryape

It was going so well until the "Dongworth" bit ! :E

Can we come and watch ? Invite Icicleman too please ? As well as the shooting stuff, I think that the Regiment tracking skills were suspect too with one hooligan in particular having erroneously followed peculiar spoor at RAF establishments. Thought they all went around on skis until he saw the length of their arms ! :p:ok:

inditrees
7th Apr 2005, 14:25
Dear Angryape,

Opsec is not a dirty word, Now crevice- thats a dirty word.

Would love to take you up on your kind offer of hospitality but sadly im on operations and wont get back to the real world for some time,

Best wishes Inditrees :ok: