Attention all Long Haul pilots

[ekpilot]

To all my long haul colleagues out there.

At my airline we are restricted by the total annual limit of 900 hours and a 28 day limit of 100 hours. That is not unusual. But we do not count all hours towards it if the flying is being augmented by one or two pilots.

Example, if the flight is 12 hours and there are three pilots, only 75% of these hours are counted by all crew towrds the limits. So only 9 hours gets counted but the pilots log all 12 hours.

If the flight is say 15 hours and there are four pilots, then just 66% gets counted, so now just 10 hours of a 15 hour flight gets counted towards the limits.

Is that the way all you other long haul pilots do it?

[Otterman]

NO!!! If we are in the "damn" plane we count the hours period, what is the justification behind this accounting move. Can you go home and relax in the meantime?

Do the office folks do this sort of thing? Sorry we don't need you right now, go sit in the corner and relax (next to a running vacuum cleaner), and by the way this does not count towards your workweek. Maybe at your airline, but certainly not at established western carriers.

The rest periods are nice if you have proper rest facilities, longhaul would be impossible without it. But lets not get carried away and look at it like it is the same thing as being at home in your own bed. Sounds like they are getting a nice freebie out of you folks.

Greetings O.

[BusyB]

How can the Captain not be credited for the entire flight as he is wholly responsible at all times and the legal paperwork reflects this?

[ukwannabe]

We have a very similar factoring system at KAL too. The most I've done is 115 hours plus twenty deadhead hours, but when factored then the recalculated flyig hours brings you back below the limits. The hours are also factored for credits towards overtime, so in effect obliterating most opportunities for overtime. I can understand this system for F/O's, though not where overtime is concerned. But not if you're PIC, an accounting con if you ask me!

[Intruder]

Example, if the flight is 12 hours and there are three pilots, only 75% of these hours are counted by all crew towrds the limits. So only 9 hours gets counted but the pilots log all 12 hours.
I have heard of similar schemes, but do not know how widespread they are...

The company can use whatever limits it wants, as long as they are at least as stringent as the FAA (or CAA or JAA...) regs governing the operation. HOWEVER, the FAA "counts" ALL time aloft as a required Crewmember. So, if you are part of an augmented crew required because the flight is over 8 hours long, 100% of that time counts toward your FAA limits (daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly, and annual).

[In the slot]

This is a very underhand way of squeezing more hours out of you guys at Emirates. Great for the paycheck, terrible for your health! Now we know why they are making ever more money, and ordering ever more aircraft!

[Shuttleworth]

Emirates pilots are being shafted. The rules are an accountants dream. Its bloody disgraceful.

[Backwater]

Minor correction. We LOG hours, or are supposed to log hours, iaw CARs. ie. if you're rostered to operate the flt then you log block time. If you're rostered to augment then you log "stick" time.
The "factorising" is short-term bs. With luck the GCAA will do the right thing and stomp on it. Sooner the better.
If not then in the long term the company will lose due to increased sickness and resignations.

[GS-Alpha]

We use unfactored hours for flight time limitations, but factored hours for qualifications, ie hours on type etc.

[411A]

I've said it before (on another thread) and I'll say it again...

The FAA would have NONE of this 'factoring' business...and neither will yours truly...ever.

Of course I can say this because I am in the sunset of my professional flying career but nonetheless, this 'factoring' business needs to be stamped OUT, pronto.:mad: :mad:

[fmgc]

I thought that this factoring was going to end at Emirates.

[HotDog]

Never mind the hours! To-day's article from ABC News On Line.

Airline limits crews' North Pole exposure amid cancer fears
Airline Cathay Pacific has limited air crews' flights on the non-stop Hong Kong-New York route after it was found the journey could increase the likelihood of cancer.

Airline staff say they have been limited to just two of the ultra long-haul flights per month since it was found the route exposed passengers and crew to high levels of cosmic radiation when they flew over the North Pole.

Union chiefs have told the South China Morning Post that radiation levels increase markedly at 8,000 metres above the pole.

They say prolonged exposure could be harmful to cell DNA, possibly causing cancers.

"If you do two-and-a-half polar flights a month you are in the danger zone," Flight Attendants Union general secretary Becky Kwan was quoted as saying.

"At first when we heard about this everybody was worried. But we have had regular meetings with (air officials) and Cathay and guidance from an aviation doctor."

However, unions are concerned no such limits have been put on passenger flights.

The report says officials felt it unnecessary as customers do not fly enough to be at risk.

The airline is British-owned but Hong Kong-based.

- AFP

[bluewater]

I have heard rumours the “factoring” is being reviewed at Emirates however if past history is anything to go on then they will be vigorously discussing new ways to manipulate the same result. Not disputing a sound business plan to make more money but not at the expense of safety through fatigue.

What hopefully will be realized is that as long as the balloon is being squeezed, unless some pressure is released the problem/s will just manifest themselves in other areas, or at worst case burst.

Unfortunately (to quote a former poster) as long as there is a steady flow of naive first time expats the big picture is not likely to change soon. Additionally, regrettably in EK whenever a person is required to do something for free and/or an internal resignation takes place (recruitment, CRM teachers, office helpers on various projects, TCI’s) the above rush to fill the void thinking respect comes with a job title or position rather than something that is earned through experience. At EK pilots are there own worst enemy.

There are some v good people at EK but unfortunately for the pilot group most of the people making these decisions have not/do not sit at the sharp end day after day, night after night, year in, year out!

Apologies if it’s been answered but what do BA, Virgin, Air NZ, Qantas and SQ do with regard credit ours for there long/ultra long haul flights?

[McGinty]

Sorry if this deviates from the thread somewhat, but I have a buddy who was self-loading freight who used to fly from Canada to Hong Kong and back once a week via Cathay Pacific. He did this for 30 weeks or so in succession because of his employment situation.

If it is dangerous for flight crews to do this more than twice a month, then why are they not warning frequent flyer passengers such as my buddy about this danger??

[Dan Winterland]

All decent airlines have to stick to the FTLs which in most cases stipulates that time in the bunk is duty time. This is certainly the case in the UK and Hong Kong. Unfortunatley, in the EK case there is little difference between the regulating authority and the airline.

[Airbubba]

>>Emirates pilots are being shafted. The rules are an accountants dream. Its bloody disgraceful.

Like CX, they have a weak union...

[wiggy]

bluewater
BA don't factor, all hours count for FTL purposes

[GlueBall]

The true legal problem about "factoring" "countable" flight time is that the "resting crew" is always part of the "required crew" to operate the flight. A required crew therefore is a crew "on duty" even when taking a snooze. If this in-house creative method of extending flight time limitations is ever challenged in a court of law, the creativity would stop.

:ooh:

[trynottoguess]

Hi, to add to the crew factoring thing (augmenting), what about the fact of being planned at M0.84 on the CFP to stay within the "factored" hours to make plans work to SEZ. Not only does an airbus not fly a constant and steady .84 but the FTLs, Aug additional time allocatiion + variatioin 1 allows you to get away with it by about 20 mins, not to mention the shortened turn-around time to make that work. The aug pilot is to allow the operating pilots 3hours rest in the cruise (cruise time little over 3 hrs). The aug pilot then should be around to make sure the op pilots don't mess up, but he now needs to rest on the descent, turn-around, and climb out before the next op pilot breaks. Not only that it is a 14hr day (sorry night duty), where all 3 pilots agree on being totally tired. Don't forget that the rest in a 1st class seat, probably next to a pax with the C Crew desperately trying to get the service done. It goes on and on, what a laugh! PS, don't forget to give up your leave to help fly the jets as it will all add to the 2 weeks profit share (share of the profit share sorry). Oh yeah, all those nice trips to be given away if you volunteer for your leave days/days off? Why aren't they already in the system when the bid is done, or are they (the nice trips) kept back for the ficticious pilots so that they are easier to get people to fly them, just a thought as this IS a Rumour forum.

Happy micro sleeps peeps.

[bugg smasher]

McGinty,

There are ongoing studies with regard to the effects of radiation exposure at high altitude, notably by a certain large European carrier. I don’t recall the ‘danger’ level exactly, but above 30,000 feet, irradiation rises markedly and exponentially with increasing altitude. The newer generation aircraft operate well above that altitude, the low forties being a common cruise height these days.

It’s very difficult to pinpoint radiation exposure at altitude as the cause of profession-induced disease rates, the industry seems to have taken a ‘wait and see’ attitude. I do know that long-haul pilots statistically tend to fall over dead within three to five years of retiring, whether radiation is the cause, or perhaps a lifetime of aggravated circadian rhythm disruption, the jury is still out.

One thing is certain, though, any impending legislation regarding this issue would be vehemently opposed by Mr. Bean and his phalanx of faithful counters.

[Hangin' on]

I think you'll find that the colonial masters of Hong Kong factor hours for bunk time in CX too.....or am I mistaken? :suspect:

[BusyB]

Not in CX. I would have stopped there but have to put at least 15 characters.