Australian Friendliness-Where the hell has it gone? [Archive]

Ramius1

26th Mar 2005, 12:14

Times are changing, or has Oz aviation always been this way???

I am constantly flying with other guys in the flightdeck who make a point of slagging another oz carrier. It's bl##dy embarrassing.

Walking around in Australian airport terminals, you might pass another 'fellow' oz pilot from a different oz carrier, and you'll be lucky to get a friendly "g'day" these days.

Working in Singapore for awhile, I noticed the condascending attitude SOME QF pilots had towards the local controllers...again it's bl##dy embarrassing...

What's with the attitude??

Why do we think that we are god's gift to aviation?

In reality, Jet airline operations in Australia is mundane and boring....it's hardly a breeding ground for all round flight experience that one would surely need to call themselves a true god.

Try flying in asia or europe for awhile....add this experience to your oz flying...

Then you'll realise a few things.....

1. No one is infallable
2. No airline is infallable
3. That saying g'day to other pilots is actually a normal thing to do
4. Don't bash other airlines.....It's unprofessional and just plain boring
5. Enjoy living here, appreciate what a life we have.

R

Sooty

26th Mar 2005, 14:47

In the States the other week. Some one referred to QANTAS as the Hitler youth due to the fact they think they're better than everyone else!!!

I'm sure it's only a few people in reality but unfortunately they're the ones that get noticed.

Capn Bloggs

26th Mar 2005, 14:55

Why do we think that we are god's gift to aviation?
Because we are.

SixDemonBag

26th Mar 2005, 18:16

...oh sh%t...here we go

Engineer

26th Mar 2005, 18:42

Like everything else in aviation just blame it on 9/11 seems to work :p

Ultralights

26th Mar 2005, 23:34

got my popcorn, longe is comfy! bring it on!

Three Bars

27th Mar 2005, 00:30

I don't know about other people who read these forums, but personally I am bored senseless by these sorts of threads.

Generalize

1) intransitive verb make sweeping statement: to state a supposed general truth about something on the basis of limited or incomplete evidence

2) intransitive and transitive verb LOGIC make inference: to infer a general conclusion from particulars, or a universal statement from an instance

In my time in Qantas, I have flown with some d*ckheads and some dead-set legends. Some pilots in QF who were cadets are arrogant smart*rses and some are just smart and possess far better piloting skills than I had at their age.

Ramius1 - You cannot use a few isolated experiences to generalize a theory about QF or Australian airline pilots. All people are different - this is a concept that I try very hard to ingrain into my children.

The world witnessed the holocaust becuase of the generalization of a madman. We had 9/11 because another madman believes that all Westerners are evil.

We are all different - how about we try to grow up and move on a little from the threads that slag off at QF/VB/(insert name here) pilots based purely on sweeping generalizations.

Ultralights

27th Mar 2005, 00:38

its a very easy situation to rectify! if you want others to wave, say hi, g'day or whatever, do it first!

MkVIII

27th Mar 2005, 01:31

Spot on Ultralights!

I KNOW I am going to get caned and canned for this, but a LOT changed FOR THE WORSE in Australian aviation in 1989 - I dare ANYONE to dispute the fact.

Nothing is going to change whilst the ghosts of the past permeate the present.

I may dislike VERY much a particular pilot on the ground, but in the cockpit, professionalism prevails and you work as a team.

Because of the events of 1989, the industry became factionalised and separated, and it seems it may NEVER come back again whilst factions want to think of the greater good of one versus the greater good of ALL. Another ghost of 1989...

Would you believe I have even WITNESSED a "89 returnee" from one airline arguing with another "89 returnee" from another airline over who was the bigger "S word"! They made a distinction over that!!! So how can we ever expect to get ANYWHERE whilst there is still infighting?????????????????? It's downright childish and selfish.

In regards to QF mainline. Well, yes, they can be pompous and arrogant. That's the way a lot of them are, and that's the way a lot of them were indoctrinated. For a LONG time QF probably was the world's best airline, and the QF guys were justifiably proud. Unfortunately 6 star service has gone the way of the doddo, yet some still try to maintain the image QF worked so hard to achieve for so long. I don't see it as bad in some ways, just outdated considering QF has been well and truly surpassed by quite a few other airlines! QF is becoming an industry joke, and we all have Dixon and his crones to blame for that one. The day aviation is returned to those that know aviation, and not some pencil pushing accountant, and CEO's that know NOTHING, will be the day we all rejoice.

In the meantime, make an effort yourself to say g'day, extend the hand, or tip the hat. You may be surprised.

Ramius1

27th Mar 2005, 06:22

Threebars:

Thanks for your comments. I'm sorry you think that i'm trying to slag QF/VB etc. In fact the intention of the thread was quite the contrary. I'm merely trying to highlight my amazement and dismay at a very noticable trend in oz airline flying today. I have been flying jets in asia, europe, and oz for nearly 15 years. My comments are not based on "isolated" experiences as you suggest. But instead it has been based on almost weekly experiences both here and overseas. I have never noticed europeans and asians carrying on the way we do. Did '89 really cause all this?

Ultralights:

I wrote this thread partly because I have iniated pleasantries and had a mixed response. Because I work for a rival airline, does this mean that we should treat fellow pilots differently? Of course not. BTW the popcorn is good.

MK VIII:

Your comments are constructive and highlight part of the message that I wanted to convey. As I said to ultralights, I usually do say hi first...mixed responses. In europe and in asia (believe it or not), the guys are nearly always receptive.

R

MkVIII

27th Mar 2005, 07:14

Lemme guess - you wear tan slacks and a white shirt, with a leather jacket in cold climes? And you work with F/A's derided by a lot here as vapid blonde bimbos?

How did I score on the psychic test? :p

And I even have a further sneaking suspicion exactly who you ARE ;)

Unfortunately, the attitude you describe has permeated even to the new young talent as well. It is a shame. A lot even walk with their head down, not held high in pride as they used to. the position of pilot has been SO eroded in Australia, it is about as respected as a bus driver. After all, Hawke did equate us all to one, albeit glorified!

Times, they are a-changing...

Otto2

27th Mar 2005, 10:24

Most of the Qf heroes are prima donnas who sleep in the uniform, but there is a minority who are true blue normal blokes/gals who love the job no matter what the uniform or aircraft. The minority cringe when some one whose only exposure to aviation is with the red rat makes an obtuse remark. I would like to think they will grow out of it but I am not so sure.

Omark44

27th Mar 2005, 10:40

If someone can tell me how old the youngest person involved in the '89 dispute was at the time and then tell me when that persons sixty fifth birthday is I'll be able to tell you when the "89" problems will start to disappear! :rolleyes:

MkVIII

27th Mar 2005, 11:24

By my reckoning, around 25 to 26 years to go!

I think your analysis will be correct too Omark44, considering how deep betrayal embeds itself in someone's psyche.

But, we are digressing too much from the centreline! A gentle tap on the pedals and bring this back into line...

I don't find the condescending tone Ramius found between QF and WSSS controllers at all uncommon. It seems endemic in a lot of professions dealing in Asia, let alone pilot. I find it ever so amusing to hear Customs officers and similar talking slow in stacchetto half-words to try to communicate with Asian people, or even raising their voice like it will somehow help! The ones that talk in syllables and raise their voice REALLY raise my hackles, and feel like having a gentle word in the idiots ear.

I have never found any Singaporean that was educated in Singapore difficult to anderstand. Some Malaysians, yes, but never a Singaporean. You just have to LISTEN. A pilot that talks on the radio in the aforementioned syllabic tones is not only a halfwit, he is endangering the flow of proper and fluent communication!

Qantas says they are one big happy family of companies, yet they are TOTALLY divided within themselves. You have MANY separate entities: Jetstar, Jetstar Asia, Qantas Mainline, Qantas Domestic, Qantas Link, National Jet, and so on almost ad infinitum! Each of these separate entities seems to possess it's own contract of employment (which seems to change at the CEO's whim). Each of these entities seems NOT to be ACTUALLY compatible with each other in relation to contract, pay scale and award, aircraft, seniority and bidding, and infrastructure. And each PILOT does not necessarily belong to the same union / representative group, with AFAP, AIPA, TWU, and god alone knows what other representative organisation! Is it any wonder one hand doesn't know what the other one is doing in Qantas??????

One must wonder if Dixon has scripted out an enormous theatrical production, with staff as his actors, and the world his stage, with the government and shareholders writing and rewriting the script, and accountants sitting poised with calculator and a bottle of liquid paper ready to blot out something that doesn't fit the Qantas equation.

A nasty version of Othello if you will...

stable approach

27th Mar 2005, 19:58

Well Scrubbed, I think you have just pretty well confirmed the point Ramius was making, without even realising it.

Salem

27th Mar 2005, 21:56

Ramius,
It was never there. Certainly in a group, their own environment, or after a few drinks. But on their own, one on one, Australians are in fact, a most shy and reserved people for the most part.

On your other point, unfortunately, Asian racism is endemic to mainstream Australian society (only not openly displayed). And vice versa to a lesser degree.

Romeo Tango Alpha

27th Mar 2005, 23:29

Scrubbed,

Me thinks you take great offence at BEING ON that list propagated by said Tasmanian.

To wit, fat slob SIA man ignored you for a reason. Afterall, we NOT on the list walk THROUGH ghosts.

Failed the IQ test, maybe, but passed the check ride in terms of integrity, loyalty, BALLS, honour, discipline....... and went to a better paying and rewarding job than any award or airline in Australia ever offered.

Must start carrying a Berty Bettle clicker in the nav bag again.... CLICK CLICK, CLICK CLICK. Now, run along and play like a god cockroach...

Racism shown by Australians to asians is not as covert as so many think, and the reverse racism is VERY evident in Singapore especially. After all, we are all Ang Moh Kwee to them (Red Haired Devils). I lived and worked in Singapore for a long time, and it takes a LONG time for you to be fully accepted into a social structure - even then you know you are NOT "one of them" regardless. It's their country, so, you get over it.

The atitude SCRUBBED (how so incredibly apt a name!) serves no good purpose whatsoever, and only further erodes the professionalism of Australian pilots. If Scrubbed has not learnt by now (probably since Ansett collapsed and found himself in a backwater job in Asia because no one else wants him) how precise and anal Asian controllers are, then ship out Scrubbed. It's not going to change, and your total disregard for proper RT is a menace to us all.

I am sorry to have wallowed in the mud and slung some at this cockroach, but his attitude just riles me, and once again demonstrates the nature of so many of his fellow ghosts.

A word of advice Scabbed, er, Scrubbed, DON'T try to mend bridges, because those bridges were dynamited so MANY MANY years ago.

Moderator, please feel free to remove this, but at least leave it long enough for Scrubbed to read and comprehend! I do apologise the the transgression. The attitude shown is EXACTLY what Ramius was describing in the original post!

greybeard

27th Mar 2005, 23:38

Scrubbed,

Many people have good reasons for remembering the date in history which effectivly ceased any pilot and union cohesian in Aust, and LOOK where it all is now.

As to S'Pore controlers, whilst not the most imaginative in the world, need to know when YOU want to descend, they don't have your exact profile in their heads as they have multiple types/weights etc to contend with as well as Nationalities who have quite different ways of doing things in similar A/C.

Also there is a "policy" of NOT using holding patterns at WSSS as going in circles means that the system can't handle the traffic, so you get vectors, best was for me a 40NM final all at 3000', SO as the controler has the cards/miles to go in his head, not yours things vary a lot as to when HE may think you need a descent.

Did my 10 yrs there, just enjoy the flying was the way to go.

As to Aussie Mateship, Qantas were on of the VERY FEW A/C who would flash landing lights when passing on the airways, or sometimes other carriers who by the voice had an Aussie crew???

C YA

:ok:

Nomorecrap

27th Mar 2005, 23:48

Scrubbed:

Fairly new to flying are you? Or just to life?

Chris Higgins

28th Mar 2005, 02:55

I have to go through LAX quite a lot these days as I get to airline to work, in order to start my tours.

The QF guys I've met have been very friendly, well presented and very conversational. I don't reckon there's a problem at all.

7gcbc

28th Mar 2005, 03:30

Chris,

[confining my comments to LAX]

To be fair, I think Travelling through LAX at anytime post 911 has got to make all other experiences delightful by comparison. :p

maxgrad

28th Mar 2005, 03:47

Read page two first, then had to go back and find out what the #ell Scrubbed said.
Concur with all about it's behavior. Hopefully the controller will give him what for next time but doubt it. The controller is a professional, he might have a slightly different way that he operates but at least not an ignorant twit!

I'm an Ausie and proud of it, to hear there are people around who are ................(insert your own interpretation), is sad but just shows some are born and others are forced out at gun piont and never stop running.

P.S any spelling nazi's.......I DON'T CARE:}

CAR256

28th Mar 2005, 12:29

Scrubbed....

I liked you , man...

You've changed. :E

Jerricho

28th Mar 2005, 12:47

"When ready to 180, well I guess that would be now....."

AND

Don't controllers have something like Controllermanship or something???

Very true. It's a similar concept to "Airmanship"................ :rolleyes:

Omark44

28th Mar 2005, 21:38

Well Scrubbed I don't think you have spent much time flying in Singapore airspace have you? If you had, as well as taken the time to get off your arse and go up to ATC and watch them work, you would realise that they are extremely professional and competent, easily on a par with anything that comes out of Sydney ATC for a start.

Ultralights

29th Mar 2005, 08:38

Just finished reading scrubbers first post......

****, i only have a PPL and treat ATC as i would like to be treated. if i need something, like a clearence, but they seam to have forgotten, i will ask. no reason to get upset. but they are doing a job just as i am, no need to treat them with contempt.

just remember, one day, the controller WILl remember you! then you will have fun! but you wont be the one laughing!

Pinky the pilot

29th Mar 2005, 09:28

When learning to fly just over 20 years ago my Instructor after noting that I had fouled up some procedure whilst approaching controlled airspace on a nav stated quite firmly to me.....
"You can get away with p*****g off a Flight Service Officer (remember that now sadly extinct species?) but don't ever p**s off an ATC Officer!!!"
I have always followed that admonition.

You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.

tobzalp

29th Mar 2005, 10:29

To be quite frank. There is no conspiracy. ATC do not give a Toss who you are or what flight rules or what Tail Markings or any of that crap. If we can give it (safety AND procedures wise) we will. I think some people in the aviation world should take off the tin foil hats and stfu.

I find it laughable that some instructors actually teach such things as above to their students. There was a recent tour of the Brisbane ATC Centre from some training college and they(the instructor) did a write up for staff news letter. The guy actually stated words along the lines of 'well ATC can make it hard for you but the guys I saw were all number 1 top blokes'. Like seriously, take the pens out of your shoulder pouch and stab yourself.

In conclusion. Ask and ye shall receive. The Aliens are reading your mind, however small it is.

Ex FSO GRIFFO

30th Mar 2005, 05:39

Onya Pinky,

On behalf of all ex Flight Service Officers, THANKS for the acknowledgement...

And, apart from your instructor, the MANY pilots who did NOT pee-off the local FSO, probably appreciated ;-
the usually cheery voice behind the mic...
their reduced 'turn around' times by having their refueller notified and waiting...
their NOTAMS and weather 'on the counter' awaiting them...
accepting 'abridged' Flight Plans by radio when they didn't have to (Read - weren't supposed to)...
arranging 'lights' at faraway places 'just in case'... you know, like when you KNEW...and we knew...and we knew that you knew we knew...and you 'pussyfooted' - just where did that 20kt tail wind come from??
the coffee 'on'...
taxies arranged when requested...
company messages - usually ETA's, and aircraft 'serviceability' messages - and the 'you are required to go to -------wherever and pick up------' passed promptly...
AND, share a beer together in the local aero club or where-ever...
and appreciate each other's job...

Don't happen n o more...
:( :ok::ok:

probably, T'was the very definition of 'Aus friendliness'......

fire wall

30th Mar 2005, 08:36

Griffo, you are truely missed, were an invaluable asset and your partners in crime are responsible for my deteoriated liver.....send money!

Pinky the pilot

30th Mar 2005, 10:46

Ex FSO GRIFFO; No worries my Friend. All you said is true and more.
Can still remember my first job, charging around the Cooper Basin oil fields in a VFR C206 having a very cheerful and sweet voiced Female FSO (YBHI) keeping watch on my antics.
"Lovely Lady;" I wonder where you are now??
The days when going Nosar no details was considered poor airmanship.
Agree with Scrubbed; Thank you 'biccies man'!:yuk:

You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.

Old Smokey

1st Apr 2005, 13:51

I find it amusing (and slightly embarrassing) to operate from Singapore to Australia with a QANTAS aircraft for company along the same route.

In Singapore and Indonesian FIRs, the radio calls are distinctly "THIS, (suitable pause), IS THE VOICE OF GOD!". Do they really have speech synthesisers?

On crossing the Australian FIRs - "Ahhh, gidday Brissy, how ya's doin? this is QANTAS..." (Nasal speech synthesiser switched on).

Oh my Gawd! I think I'll start telling my F/Os that I'm really a Kiwi.

Old Smokey (Tongue in cheek mode now OFF)

Zapatas Blood

2nd Apr 2005, 04:11

Re Singapore ATC.

One factor also contributing to the traffic flow into/out of Singapore is the totally unpredictable speed control of carriers based in the region - no names.

speed control was much more precise in Oz - 300 knots up and down, 250 below unless cleared. Any different and you requested it from atc.

In Sin, you will see 210 knots at 50 miles or 340 knots at 15 miles - depends on how comfortable the driver is on the day, or how scared he is, or how close to meal allowance the flight is, or how many clouds are in the sky.

Three Bars

2nd Apr 2005, 04:57

Smokey,

I see from your profile that you are a Singapore-based 777 pilot with a lot of experience.

I did the Singapore-Perth run last night and just thought that I would relate my feelings about the comms around Jakarta.

In QF, 767 drivers only get to do one Singapore pattern per roster, so ongoing exposure on this route is difficult. At peak times (late evening), however, I can't remember Jakarata's comms being as bad as they were last night.

At one point, the controller was controlling aircraft on two frequencies simultaneously, and only one frequency was audible to me - that is, he was issuing instructions to which we could not hear the requests or the replies. There were many, many overtransmissions and it took me four requests to get a 10 mile weather diversion inside radar coverage. The controller must have queried my requested diversion distance three times as other aircraft overtransmitted both me and him.

I do admit to getting a little testy at the end of the exchange (something I always try to avoid) mainly through frustration. I also try to speak more clearly and slowly in Jakarta and Singapore airspace becuase of potential language problems. This might explain why the "VOICE OF GOD" changes to "gday mate" at the FIR boudary.

As a last aside, one of your compatriots (I assume) Singapore 215 (about 15 minutes ahead of us) advised us of turbulence over Carnarvon at FL370 and told us it was much smoother at FL350. We thanked him very much for the information and descended on his advice - proves that their is still some professionalism and spirit of cooperation left out there.

Ramius1

2nd Apr 2005, 09:48

Smokey and Three Bars....good responses guys. It's refreshing on these forums to have views expressed in a pleasant constructive light. The opinions offered may be different but that's fine....debate is great if it's conducted in an adult way.

I have been curious to see the replies to my initial posting. Mixed bag that's for sure, but on the whole, the comments were kept civilised.

Basically that was my goal to begin with. I wanted to highlight an endemic lack of professional respect for other airlines, crew and ATC. So to have some positive reports is great to hear.

But, we do things differently, we must accept that. Why hassle foreign controllers? To instigate change?.....don't work. To make yourself feel better?.....may work. To get fired up and lose your temper?.....almost certainly works.

Chill out, be courteous to others, bite your lip when you have to, respect different cultures and the way they do things.....cut out the I AM GOD ATTITUDE......

Attitudes towards you will then change too....