Don't ever pay to apply for Rayanair!

[Mermose]

MY ADVICE: DON'T GIVE ANY MONEY TO THOSE BASTARDS: The employment contract is totally disgraceful and reflects exactly their crook mentality.
Here are a few terms of the contract for a F/O B737/800 already qualified and with 3000 hours on B737:
- Your basic salary will be at the rate of IEP£18,000 gross…
- TRAINING BOUND EVEN IF QUALIFIDED!!!!
(1)You acknowledge that Ryanair will incur costs in the sum of STG£8,000 in providing you with initial training and that in the event that your contract is terminated before the end of your first two years service Ryanair will suffer loss in the amount of all or part of that sum.

(2) If your employment with Ryanair is terminated before the end of the first two years of your service other than;
(a) on grounds of redundancy or
(b) where Ryanair agrees in writing to the contrary
You will become liable to repay to Ryanair a proportion of the costs incurred by Ryanair in providing you with initial training.

(3) You agree that Ryanair’s loss in respect of the costs incurred in providing you with initial training and your liability to repay will be;

STG£8,000/24 x number of months of the first two years of your service remaining after termination

(4) You agree that Ryanair may deduct from any sum due to you from Ryanair (including salary) all or part of the sum repayable by you in accordance with this contract or by any order of the court.

- UNIFORM:
You will be provided with a pilot's uniform at your own expense in line with Company practice. You will be required to sign a salary deduction form in the amount of IEP£300 for the cost of this uniform. You must maintain this uniform in accordance with Company standards, at your own expense.
- EXCESS CAPACITY:
Because of the uncertainty of the airline business circumstances could arise where Ryanair has excess capacity. If we are required to reduce our activity level for any reason, it is a condition of this job offer that you accept the right of the Company, at its sole discretion, to give you compulsory unpaid leave for the duration of the period of excess capacity or to terminate your employment.
- WORKING HOURS & BASE
Due to the nature of our business, working irregular hours, including rostered / day or night shifts, are a condition of your employment. Ryanair’s aircraft are registered in the Republic of Ireland and as you will perform your duties on these aircraft your employment is based in the Republic of Ireland. You will operate from Hahn but it must be clearly understood that you may be required to transfer to any other Ryanair base without compensation. It must also be understood that should you be transferred to another base you will be paid in accordance with the prevailing salary and flight pay system in operation at that base.
- POSITION
Upon you;
(a) obtaining licence validation
(b) completing your initial training to the satisfaction of Ryanair and
(c) completing line training without a safety pilot to the satisfaction of Ryanair
you will be appointed to the position of First Officer - Boeing 737-800 aircraft.
You will report to Ryanair’s Chief Pilot and/or his nominated deputies.
As a First Officer you may from time to time at Ryanair’s absolute discretion be required to perform non-flying duties within any of Ryanair’s departments.
ETC... ETC...

My question is: has anybody signed a contract with these assholes after 1st October 2001 and received (and accepted) the same shocking conditions?

This is a shame for our profession.

[SkyClear]

You are right, this is a bad contract. You would have to be desperate to sign this contract. Unfortunately, some people are desperate and will accept these conditions!

There are a few standard items in there, that have always been in there. The additions are the lower basic, the 'training bond', payment for uniform and the Hahn base.

The point about performing non-flying duties within any of Ryanair’s departments does not happen. You may be required to be on the jump-seat as a safety pilot.

It looks like the contract is to target the 'zero-hour pilot' to me...

[The Guvnor]

All looks pretty straightforward to me - when you join another company under JAROPS you must be given company specific training and of course there's a cost associated with that.

I see you conveniently forgot to mention the duty/flying pay etc...

This is the way the industry's going in order to cut its costs ... if you don't like it, you can go off and do something else! :rolleyes: :eek: :rolleyes:

[B.Navez]

Guvnor,

I would like to join Mermose in his move against that airline, because I had the occsion to see a typical F/O contract from Ryanair myself, and they go far out. As far as pay is concerned, if you want to know, it was 18,000 irish pounds gross per year for a -800 F/O. Thats quite the opposite from what has been announced during the april boom. Then, the money they require you to pay if you leave the company before a certain time doesn't have any sense in the case of the guy who gave me an example of his contract because as he was qualified, so, apart from the standardisation course (3 sim sessions!) , he doesn't need any training. More of that, It seems like Ryanair actually own their sims (to be verified, I agree, anyone has a clue on this?), so if it is actually true, how dare they: 1. make the candidates pay for the trial session; 2. ask a moneyback garantee for 3 little sims sessions???
Another thing: they can put you on a undefinite and unpayed leave if they need to do so, without ANY compensation.
And finally, in Belgium, they could negotiatie a financial help especially dedicated to the training and enrolment of belgian pilots on the -800, and now, the few belgian candidates who had an interview with them where told they would have to pay the rating??? now who are these bastards???
I am aware that Offer and Demand are closely linked, and the situation of aviation now is in our disadvantage, but, believe me, Having lost my first job 2 months ago, I had the chance to find another seat 3 weeks ago, and the conditons remained as decent as what I previously had. The only change is that during the fist month I can be put aside in a couple of days, due to the uncertainty of the market, and that is fair play. But, about Ryanair, when better times will come for us, I hope we will all remember what they did to us... Gentlemen, we are not just bus drivers, think about that...

PS: Apart from who owns the sims, all information held in here is truth!!!
:confused: :confused: :confused:

[E cam]

It's a good job that McDonalds don't treat their staff like that!

[OzDude]

Guvnor, you really are a dipstick! You speak of things that you have absolutely no idea. You claim to be an aviation person who has run an airline (Ha! Some poxy outfit in darkest Africa where you were allowed to get away with bending all the rules and were ousted by your fellow directors because you are such a Walter Mitty) and you have the audacity to claim to be an ATPL holder with many hours of experience.

Well, it is about time you put up or shut up. You have NEVER, EVER, given ANY information on your qualifications to ANYONE always wriggling out with the claim that you don't have to and will only do so privately to someone who gives you their details. Unfortunately I know for a fact that you are extremely devious and anyone who gives you their details risks being harassed and intimidated by you or one of your aliases and I know personally of people who have befriended you only to have their hospitality abused and their finances pilfered.

Unless you can provide details of your licence qualifications, hours on type for which operator then you certainly are not qualified to bull**** about what is good or bad for us pilots. No doubt you will once again claim that you do not have to give any information out but you have put yourself so high on a pedestal that you are about to take a great fall unless you can substantiate some of your claims (lies?).

The terms of the contract we have been shown are some of the most degrading in the industry and certainly not worth applying for if you have any prior experience. Maybe if you are a desperate wannabe with a type rating looking for your first job or an eastern block pilot with the right to work in Europe.

As you say, most pilots with any experience will go off and do something else. This type of contract will eventually backfire on Ryanair as their recruitment of experienced pilots dries up and when (yes it is only a matter of time) they have their first serious incident that is attributable in any way to the level of experience on their flight deck their insurers put more restrictive requirement for experience and the supervising authority clamp down on them.

Your other comment about having to be bonded for company specific training is just one more spurt of verbal diarrhorea from you ego-inflated head. Obviously another reason why you can't raise the money to start your 'airline' because most people with any sense can see through your Walter Mitty persona and have a lot more sense than to lend you anything, especially with your track record over here in the UK. Have the banks and Amex had their little meeting with you yet? I doubt it as you are doing your utmost to avoid responding to them.

You can fool some of the people all of the time and there are a few readers here who are impressed with you but fail to realise that it is only your ability to cut and paste news articles. Those of us who have been reading your personal views on some of the issues are not impressed and you are about as high in our estimation as something brown and smelly that people avoid trying to tread in! It is obvious that you do not have much appreciation for the work that pilots do and in your virtual airline pilots would be a necessary evil but for you to make claims that you understand what the job is about because you have delusions about once being an airline pilot is total fantasy.

You have never been an airline pilot and you don't even have a PPL. You have never 'owned' or 'run' an airline, never mind a gun-running and smuggling operation in darkest Africa yet you continue to make comments on issues that affect us as pilots and your tone of derision as in the post above only serve to make the rest of us pilots glad that you don't have an airline nor are you ever likely to. In fact, if you post your piloting qualifications (oh, and while we're at it your fake degrees too) for us to inspect I will reveal my identity to you and place a wager on the fact that you will never own or run ANY airline!

Of course, hell may freeze over in the meantime as you have a habit of prevaricating about revealing anything about any of your qualifications. You are not stupid but you certainly are a twister of the truth and manage to pull the wool over the eyes of some of your readers but those of us who do have some experience in the business are not fooled and you only go to prove our points by your avoidance of answering the critical questions.

When you have revealed you qualifications, educational and aviation, that you claim to have (qualifications, places and dates) and thereby show your right to be respected for your comments then you will find that those of us who know your real persona will leave you alone to preach your pearls of wisdom. I'm not going to hold my breath though.

[737man]

Ozdude- you really have a problem don't you! Most of us rely on the Guv for our diet of rumour to brighten up these depressing times. Personally I don't care if the Gov managed a Martian airline! he hasn't done me any harm- or you for that matter. Your rampaging is typical of the attitude that has ruined most Australian airlines! Why don't you go off out into the desert and shoot a kangaroo or something! :mad:

[The Guvnor]

2Low2Fast - we've been through this bonding issue before on a number of threads. Unfortunately, as long as people move from job to job (especially low timed FOs) then the airlines have to safeguard their interests. In fact, I was under the impression that FR were getting their new hires to pay for a conversion course?

As for the option to put people on unpaid leave - I think you'll find that a lot of carriers are - or will be - including similar clauses in their contracts; using hard learnt lessons from the current economic climate.

Re the sims - I understand that they use GECAT. Can anyone confirm this?

OzDude - if I ever apply to you for a job, I'd be more than happy to supply the information requested. As I'm not, why should I? :rolleyes: People who have a need - or right - to know are of course provided them and that includes a few people on here.

Unlike the majority of people on here - including yourself, I note - I do not hide my identity or even location. Surely if I was as 'devious' as you claim, I would remain as covert as possible!

As to whether or not you doubt my veracity that of course is your own choice. I don't see anyone holding a gun at your head, forcing you to read my posts - or indeed anyone elses. If you don't like what you read, don't read it - pass onto something that might better suit your needs such as a thread on "Why Pilots Are Sky Gods and Should Run Airlines And Be Paid Millions Plus Get A Minimum of 4 Days Off Per Week And A Maximum of 200 Hours Duty Time Per Year". Hmmmm, not an '89er, were you? Thought so! :rolleyes:

I'm also rather interested to see that you're claiming that "I know for a fact that you are extremely devious and anyone who gives you their details risks being harassed and intimidated by you or one of your aliases and I know personally of people who have befriended you only to have their hospitality abused and their finances pilfered." You'll appreciate that these are rather serious allegations and I'd appreciate it if you would disclose precisely who has been "harassed and intimidated"; who my "alias" is that allegedly "harassed and intimidated" such alleged person or persons; and from whom I have allegedly "pilfered" finances. I'd also appreciate it if you could provide your name and address - not for "harassment" but rather so my attorney can arrange to have you served with a summons for libel should you not be able to provide such evidence requested.

I'd be happy to accept your offer of a wager. What terms do you propose?

Going back to the subject at hand - I suspect that these contractual terms will apply solely to lowtimed FOs. Looking through past threads, I can't see any rumblings of discontent from any of the Captains - indeed they seem to be some of the highest paid in the business!

[Busta Level]

Oh please Guv,

Unless you supply your real name- so you are identifiable - you cannot file a 'summons' for derogatory comments towards you as an unidentifiable alias entity on the net. I'd love to see you try!

If you are successful with your summons let us all know - I'm sure there are a few people on this forum who would love to file summons against you for some of your past comments ;)

I think some of your outspoken and ill advised comments are coming home to roost. lets face it, if you stir enough you'll end up getting some back!

Cheers!

Busta

Oh, and BTW - the Ryanair contract stinks. In any other industry (apart from fast food restaurants) they'd be closed in a week due to staff shortages!

[ 08 December 2001: Message edited by: Busta Level ]

[Cream Crackered]

No thanks Ryanair, I'd rather weather the storm and hold out for a proper job :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Moses Mashomba]

Basically, when it comes to The Guvnor, there seem to be two PPRuNe camps - those who like him (but who know very little about him) and those that loathe him (because they actually know quite a lot about him). So I'm with OzDude.

Mr Guvnor has an incredibly dodgy past, e.g. 737man, with regards to "he hasn't done me any harm", I seem to recall that a previous lady friend of The Guv - well at least he's not a poof, or perhaps he is (?) - made some VERY serious allegations about his loving / caring attitude towards her child, and all of which was raised here on PPRuNe months ago, or was it years ? and I seem to recall, though I might be mistaken, that she herself made a PPRuNe posting about it - has anybody got some historic links to that stuff ? and if so will you please put them in here to remind us.

In any event it all seems a bloody shame, because if he spent just 1/10th of the time he spends ******ing about with his bullsh!ting schemes, he'd probably be doing alright.

So at best I suppose he's a hapless dreamer, and at worst a dangerous though knowledgeable - which is what makes him all the more dangerous - con man !

And to get back to topic - there's no bloody way that I'd ever work for RyanAir on a contract like that - talk about wanting to own your soul !

[Dan Winterland]

Well Guv, if by some improbable miracle your airline does get started, I think we can all see what sort of employer you will be. :eek:

[CAT MAN]

WHY DOES ANYBODY ON THESE FORUMS EVEN BOTHER TO ANSWER THAT TOSSPOT 'GUVNOR' ANYMORE...WHEN OH WHEN? HAS HE/SHE EVER MADE A VALID REASONABLE POINT...


Yes... If the RYANAIR contracts are thus structured,it says a lot about the ethos of the organisation...from CEO to most junior FO They will take you burn you and disgard you...Go back to sweetshops Michael...

[ 08 December 2001: Message edited by: TR3 ]

[Mert]

The thing that I don't understand is that this GUV person has attended PPrune bashes and managed not to get the snot beat out of him, I know the ways here are a little different than over there, but if a person down this way acted like he did they wouldn't be too quick to show their face at something like that.
No offence GUV... but nobody likes a braggart, and since you're basically the only one blowing your own horn that's what you come across as.

[The Guvnor]

Mert - I certainly don't think I'm blowing my own horn on anything! Perhaps once I've got the next operation up and running and am the best employer/most profitable airline/top of the consumer polls I might be tempted to do that - but what I do (as do other people here with management experience such as 411A) is provide a management perspective on various issues.

Whether you (or anyone else) wants to take them on board is entirely your own decision. Indeed, they may - or may not - be correct; but so far I think I've been right more times than I've been wrong. And I have been wrong on many occasions - and have been happy to acknowledge that.

And as for the Ryanair contract - I'm not saying at all that I agree with it; I'm just trying to provide an explanation about why it is what it is - and also to point out that FR is not going to be the only airline that's doing this. How many US carriers - especially the majors - charge for applications these days?

Hmmmm, Moses Mashomba ... I see that's your first post. Not yet another reincarnation of ZambAero, Who?, Freeboot, Freenum, Napoleon etc etc? I suspect so! :rolleyes: :eek: :rolleyes:

[mens rea]

As long as pilots in Ryanair continue to look out for their own personal interests rather than supporting their more junior collegues then pilots will continue to be undervalued for the work they do.

If a low time FO is willing to accept 18K (I like the way the pay is IEP and bond is STG btw....nice touch!) then it follows that s/he will accept a lower salary on getting a command....think about it. It's all divide and conquer tactics.

I would rather take a non-flying job than be bent over by Ryanair.

Guvnor: you were never a pilot-> that's patently obvious.

[Tristar Freak]

737man, another nom de plume for Guv?

As Ozdude says the guv is a bore who adds little or nothing to this bulletin board. His contributions to almost any thread means it will normally die in a bitter flame war as he insults peole and then attempts to put the blame on others. I for one wouldnt be sad to see the back of the Guvnor.

Anyway, back to the point. This contract sucks and preys on those desperate enough to get work after spending at least $100,000 on commercial training. Airlines rely on people spending vast sums of their own money to get the basic training required before airlines have to spend only $20,000 on the type rating that pilots require before an airline can make any money from them. Anyway, how much loyalty will this sort of policy engender?

[Mermose]

The Guvnor, there are a few things I’d like to clarify: the contract doesn't apply only to lowtimed FOs. I was "offered" this bull**** contract with 3000 hours on type 737.
"the Highest paid" only applies to those who signed before 1st October. From that date, they reduced by half the salaries. Regarding the sector pay, THERE IS ABSOLUTLY NO MENTION IN THE CONTRACT OF ANY SECTOR PAYMENT! It only applies under the table and there is nothing officially written about it. Also, you eventually receive an E-mail telling you that you get 50% of the normal sector pay during the first year and 75% during the second year. So it means that not only they can pay you exactly what they want and when they want, but also that there is an internal discrimination: between 2 pilots with exactly the same experience, one will get half of the other one salary! There must be a good atmosphere out there…
No contract can be as disgracefull as this.
So if you like the game these bastards play, I would suggest in the name of any pilot with a bit of honor, that you stay in your Darkest Africa, where slavery has apparently not yet been abolished.
For those who support my thoughts, thanks.
Cheers.

[The Guvnor]

Hmmm, do you pay tax on the sector pay? If not, then that's illegal and of course it should be included in the contract - ommiting it is also illegal and of course could result in a situation where they turn round and say "sorry, lads, no sector pay from now on" - and without documentary confirmation you haven't got a leg to stand on.

I understand that the FR definition of 'qualified on type' is not B737, but rather B737NG. How many hours on that do you have, Mermose - and does it comply with FR's stated minimums? If not, there you have your reason why you've been given this contract... :rolleyes:

[Mermose]

I have 3000 hours on B737 EFIS (including 300 hours on 737/800) and a JAA licence issued in Belgium. I hope this answer your question... They claim that you need at least 500 hours on type 737/800 not to be bounded. Do you think that makes any difference? I don't think so. It's just another evidence of their crook spirit. Another cheap way to print money. They will pay it later. I'm ready to bet on that.

[Moses Mashomba]

Oh how ones past can come back to haunt one, it must be a nightmare ?! and alas I'm afraid I'm none of them Guv, but simply yet just another detractor, and champion of bullsh!t repelant ! :D

[rebeccadblake]

I bet in the current situation there will be a lot of newbie pilots falling for this as a last hope, I hope they dont fall for it.

I hope that no one agree's with ryanair and signes up for this thing, so they realise what a **** contact it is.

NO pilot with half sense would fall for this, would they?

[Wanula Dreaming]

Hmmmm, Moses Mashomba ... I see that's your first post. Not yet another reincarnation of ZambAero, Who?, Freeboot, Freenum, Napoleon etc etc? I suspect so!

Tjesis Guv, you are sharp today ! ;)

As far as getting back on the topic, I think it ABSOLUTELY rediculous that you have to pay to even apply to any company.

What´s next, you have to pay for your own cup of coffee during the interview ?

Any company should stick to it´s core business, for Ryan that should be selling tickets, NOT application forms.
Sure it costs money to process an application form and to select a possible pilot/employee, but any serious business should be able to write that off.

[Moses Mashomba]

Sharp ?! Jeez, if he was half as sharp as he thought he was he'd be doin' ok - instead... to describe him as a w_anker is an insult to w_ankers.

[batty_boy]

Under along lost identity i tried to piont out some of the discrepencies about the guv and was shouted down in a blaze of guardian reading indignation.
Oz dude you hit the nail on the head in your first post. Anyone who had an airline in burundi when he did must have been dodgy. But he is a good name dropper , shame he couldnt understand a posting in swahili.
East and central africa is full of wheeler dealers making full use of the bribery and conman attitude with the big eal around the corner. Seems people are finally catching on.
Just ignore him he s is probably missing his malaiya girlfriend.
"oh neil i ruve you darring."
A bit off the topic but entertaining

sasa guvnor wewe ni mukora na sema mafe bwana.

[The Guvnor]

batty_boy - if you were partaking of your favourite interests (as stated in your profile) :eek: in that neck of the woods I trust you were using the appropriate protection - otherwise you might as well have been playing Russian Roulette with an automatic! :rolleyes:

We didn't use Swahili in Burundi, btw ... how's your Kirundi? :eek: :rolleyes: :eek:

[Capt PPRuNe]

Errrm, unless we can keep the debate to the issue of FR and their employment contract then this thread is in rapid danger of closing down!

[Squawk 8888]

Thanks, Captain, far too many ad hominem posts for such an important subject.

Now for my own two cents- as a business professional it never ceases to amaze me how boneheaded most airline managers seem to be. What kind of mindset allows them to spend thirty million bucks on a plane then be skinflints with the guy who's driving it? In any other industry the smaller the labour component vs. revenue, the more you can pay. A few grand extra each year for the fella in the pointy end translates into a few pennies more from each customer, so why risk wrecking the whole operation over it?

I can understand FR's concern for their investment in training, but other industries have adopted a fairly simple solution to the problem of turnover- make it worth their while to stick around! There are plenty of ways to protect the investment in training their pilots that don't need to cost any more than bonding. They claim the training costs 8,000- so give the pilot a 2,000 raise in year one and 6,000 in year two. So you pay him 8,000 more by the third year but if he stays on, but then you'll have to pay that to train a replacement if he leaves, plus you've got a pilot who's more inclined to work his butt off for you. Or maybe you could pay a bonus after 3 years, or offer stock options, or... well you get the idea. As it is, I can guarantee that a significant number of Ryanair pilots will be outa there almost immediatly after they've done their two years- surely management isn't expecting this recession to still be on in 2004?

Finally, anyone who's ever seen any of my posts is aware that I'm no fan of trade unions but this company is begging for one. They might be okay for now but they can look forward to lots of labour trouble once the economy picks up.

[bugg smasher]

Shocking terms indeed! The aspect that bothers me the most, if I have read the contractual terms as posted above correctly, is that Ryanair appears to have the option of terminating the pilot at any time for any reason, AND per terms of the contract have the right to collect any outstanding portion of the training bond. Is that correct? The legal people would have a riotous field day with this. Hope Ryanair has good counsel, if not, I believe OJ’s lawyers are available at a price.

In times like these some operators feel justified in pursuing this kind of predatory nonsense, the long-range consequences of such policies, however, are already well documented. I believe a certain airline in Singapore continues to endeavor to transform its training operation into a profit center in and of its own right, and affectionately between the sheets with participating banks, are the noble money-changer pioneers of the airman-slavery trade. Very cozy stuff, and a most humiliating disgrace to humanity. Where’s BraveHeart when you need him.

Certainly there will be many starting pilots who will take the chance. In that sense, it represents a good, albeit risky investment opportunity for the low-time and financially sound pilot (normally mutually exclusive) to acquire marketable flying skills on a glass airliner. Having acquired said experience, and having reduced the bond to an acceptable sum, these pilots will then abscond with all possible haste to a decent operator as quick as you can say “another pint of Guinness” when the time is right. The industry is already showing signs of hitting bottom, that day shouldn’t be too far off, wise strategy to be ready when the hiring starts again.

In the absence of a change in management practices, I foresee a particularly pernicious “revolving door” syndrome developing at this carrier, the accounting department appears to be perplexingly blind to the significant training and safety considerations therein.

For all of those who appear intent on slagging off McDonald's, by the way, it takes a cool hand to grease a hot burger onto the barby like a pro, especially in a roaring forties crosswind. Think I’ll wander off and practice some crash n’ dash with me Oz mates…

[Ontheairwaves]

I for one know of quite a few guys/girls out there back in the oul sod who are newly qualified and looking for work but won't touch Ryanair...yes they may be hiring but from what i hear they won't be looking for anymore low time pilots till Feb02...
Really i don't think they are an operation any self respecting pilot would touch.
I think that it's only a matter of time unfortunately that FR will hit the deck and this will be due to an incident....And knowing the bit i do about them i think the whole company will come tumbling down in an inquiry when their whole operation is looked at under the microscope.
I wouldn't touch them...much as i don't have a big heart for ALT i still wouldn't go to FR. Sure the IEP15,000 type rating and what they charge for application/interviews...etc. is a total rip off and if you let them walk over you then what happens when you are on the line as a new FO. Will IALPA or BALPA be able to help you in your first year.....if it's anything like ALPA here then you are pretty much on your own for the first year.....at the mercy of MOL.....
My advice is "Don't touch em with a barge pole".
As for the bashing the THE GUVNOR is getting...we all know he flies a desk and puts more posts on here than pretty much everyone else...but hey why rise to his silly comments......as i say....
"never argue with a fool....because people might not know the difference..."
Let the anorak have his say...
As for FR...stay clear :mad: :mad: :mad:

[maxalt]

Only a short 6 months ago I was lambasted on this forum for daring to suggest that the very situation now applying at Ryanair would come to pass.

Ontheairwaves, Sunsandfly, The Guvnor, Capt Chaos, Capt Greaser...all of them leapt to the defence of Ryanair when I suggested that the high salaries being forked out then would not last beyond the day that FR management saw the opportunity to slash the rates.
I didn't forsee how swiftly my prediction would come true.

FR has come in for a lot of stick on this thread, and yet the vehement denials that were a feature of the debate last May are all absent. The apologists guns are silent. Why? Are they finally seeing the light? I wonder if they've been warned to stay off this forum by their management. Or maybe they've finally come to realise the state of affairs they are actually in.

It must be tough to realise you've been duped.

As mens rea points out this is just the start. Get the wannabes in on a sh*te contract and keep 'em sweet by offering a command in a couple of years...but drop the command pay too. They'll be glad to get it.

It's so simple when you think about it. You take a bunch of guys and work them to the legal limits, but pay them well to start with. As soon as the opportunity presents itself you start slashing the rates, starting with the weakest (the newbies). Since they're already working to the max theres no confrontation over working conditions changes. Every dollar you drop off the payroll is another dollar of productivity in your back pocket, and they'll have to fight like hell to claw it back in the future. Running to stand still would be a suitable term to describe it.

So the FR gravy train is over lads. You've only yourselves to blame for that. If you'd been a little less gullible back in May you'd have seen it coming. You can look forward to more of the same in the future.

[ 09 December 2001: Message edited by: maxalt ]

[Cardinal]

Just an American doing the math on 18000 Irish Punts/year:

18000 IEP = 20339 USD

There are Beech 1900 f/os over here that make more than that, while carrying 1/6th the passengers at half the speed, yes 1/12th the productivity. The median US regional (19-50 seats)new-hire salray is 17000 USD, just a smidge less than Ryanair's offer. On an average FR sector each passenger contributes, what, 25c to the f/os paycheck? I know of no US 737/A320 operator that offers less than twice ryanairs salary, ie at least 40,000 USD/36000 IEP.

Of course I don't know about the cost of living over there, but those numbers are just abysmal. Shameful.

[The Guvnor]

Hang on a second though, people. We've established that this is the contract for those that do not meet FR's minimum requirements.

We have not yet seen the terms of the contracts for those that do meet their minimum requirements - I'd suspect they are considerably better.

Is it fair for FR to be penalising those that don't meet their entry criteria? Sure - the alternative is simply to say "go away and don't come back until you meet our requirements". They are therefore giving these people an opportunity that they would not otherwise have had. And given the present oversupply of pilots in the market that don't have the requisite number of 737NG hours (and indeed those that do) you can't really blame them for taking advantage of that situation.

Whilst they have some very unsafe working practices (such as their high taxi speeds) the reality is that they do little from an operational perspective that the oft quoted as the 'best' airline in the States, Southwest, does not also do. They require you to either be fully type rated or pay for such a rating yourself - before you join WN. I understand there's a fee for applications; and for the first three years of employment all employees are on considerably lower salaries. And their taxi speeds have to be seen to be believed!

The primary difference is leadership - first Herb Kelleher and now Colleen Barratt know that a successful company requires its own corporate culture and they have worked extremely hard to create the Southwest Family ethos. MO'L, on the other hand, rules autocratically with an iron fist.

As a result, according to polls in such magazines as Fortune and Forbes, Southwest is lauded as one of America's best companies to work for.

Invariably, it's the only airline listed.

I've been saying for a long time now that working terms and conditions this side of the pond are going to change - and they are. Expect all airlines to start charging for CVs and requiring that applicants are either rated (and experienced) on type or will pay a lower rate until such experience has been built up.

You want that job, or not?

Cardinal - you should try for a job as an EMB135 FO at SA Airlink then! Junior FOs (ie those with under 2000 hrs tt) have a gross of R9,400 (£600 or say US$850) per month and FOs earn R12,800 per month (£800 or say US$1,100). Tax, medical aid etc will take off some 60% of those figures.

Still, beer is only 40p a pint!

[Mermose]

Thanks guys for coming back to the subject.

Requirements? Come on GOVNER, don't tell me you agree with them! A bound is for someone who's not qualified on the company's type of aircraft. What difference is there between 300 hours and 500 hours as far as costs are concerned.
Do you think I'll cost them more having 300 hours on type instead of 500? This is bullsh!t.
Also, I doubt they will find lots of pilots qualified on the 737NG with 500 hours. It's a new aircraft in Europe and there are only a few of them. They know it and when they meet eventually a pilot with 500 on it they must think "**** , we won't be able to bound him".

I’m glad to see here that apart from a few fascists who certainly don’t know what a cockpit looks like, everybody is unanimous to say that this contract is disgraceful, that no one should accept it and that Ryanair people are nothing but crooks who will pay it cash later.
:D :D :D

[Thoroughly Nice Bloke...]

Firstly I hope nobody minds me as a new-comer adding my comments to this thread.

I have been browsing this site for some weeks now and whilst I have no feelings either way about The Guvnor or indeed anyone else that uses this site, I have to say that I have found most of the Guvnor's posts to be of interest and directly linked to the Aviation industry, unlike a lot of others.

On to the topic in question, I personally would jump at a chance to fly for RYAN AIR, (Mr O'Leary I can be at your office by midday Monday) and before those of you who disagree start to chastise me for it let me remind you, it's a free country and we all have the opportunity to choose what we do and who we do it for!

On a lighter note, may I suggest that some of you should calm down a little, take some time to relax and maybe get out more.

And don't forget....

[GuvBuster]

It's people like the silly Guvnor that seem to be running FR. This is a PROFESSION, not just a fad that passes after a few months. We are NOT bus drivers, but the most professional group you will ever come across anywhere. It costs an absolute fortune to get the licence and the pay MUST reflect this. Employers like FR will learn sooner or later who's in charge. There are varius steps we can take, one obvious one is Strike Action, which will hurt FR sooooooo badly even if it went on just for a few days.
So FR Management while you're sitting on your sorry high and mighty asses enjoying the pilots predicament, don't you dare get up - you might get a rocket up that orifice!!!

[Mermose]

You are right NICE BLOCK, freedom of thought is a priority value, and it applies to this forum too. I just wanted to warn people about what they pay for applying for Rayanair and what outrageous contract they would eventually receive if they go through their interview process. But of course everybody is free to do what he/she wants. I personally think there would really be a lack of honor signing such a contract and accepting to fatten up those Rayanair pigs.

[Thoroughly Nice Bloke...]

Mermouse...

I was not in any way attempting to attack your thread with my post, but merely to point out to some of it's respondents that we all possess the freedom of choice, as my signature say's.... ;)

[Tom the Tenor]

You either have the type-rating or you do not have. Mermose did. Anything else is bull and is only a stunt to cash in on the situation. Shop-keeper management again, no doubt - squeezing the last possible penny from you. To quote Mr W B Yeats, Romantic Ireland is dead and gone, It's with O'Leary in the grave. By the way, this is not the same O'Leary as our playboy MO'L but a figure from the Celtic Revival period in Ireland at the end of 19th century. He too became disillusioned at the burgenoning, penny-pinching, middle class Dublin traders & shopkeepers of the time. Not much has changed?

[shakespeare]

What these clowns (Ryanair) are doing is an appalling slight on our industry. I am all in favour of cost cutting, efficiency and operating to tight budget constraints. It make life interesting. However Ryanair are setting a new universally low standard with their current regime in place.

They are inviting disaster and when that perilous day arrives, I hope the protagonists of these disgustingly low standards are bought to justice.

The comments of some dilerious contributors are better left for another day. They defy comprehension.

Ryanair, you are a disgrace to our indusrty!

[CAT MAN]

But of course looking at it in another way.The purchase of Ryanair shares would do no harm,since basically they ride everybody who works for them,including service providers.
Then the ultra low cost ethos can only be good for people who have nothing to do with the airline business, other than the purchase of a few shares,taking a profit...

In the end newly qualified kids who have committed themselves to enormous financial burdens contribute to the gains of investors.

Ultimately, O'Leary has no shortage in finding willing volunteers to fund his training department.So in essence ,despite the fact that collectively we whinge and moan about the exploitation we witness....Surely we must ask ourselves what contribution we have made to undermining ourselves as a profession...TR3

[ 09 December 2001: Message edited by: TR3 ]

[Hood]

Well said Shakespear.
I hope that those considering accepting these degrading conditions understand what they are doing to the pilot community at large. Moreover I hope they do not expect BALPA recognition with respect to improving pay and conditions!

[maxalt]

I see in todays Sunday Tribune front page that O'Leary has now cancelled Christmas! The staff of Europes most valuable airline have been to told to take a hike on the Christmas party this year. Belt tightening is the excuse, and he actually had the gall to add that it 'wouldn't look right to be celebrating at a time like this'! Bwahahaha!!

Guvnor you refer to FRs taxi speeds as their only slightly 'unsafe working practice'. What do you know about it? You aren't a pilot! You look out the window of your office (caravan? bunker? lonely bedsit?) and you see a Ryanair 737 shoot past doing 40+ and then it's gone into the wide blue yonder. End of story.

Well that ain't the end of the story mate. I share the sky with them. There's more. And there are plenty of their own guys expressing concern on the quiet. I sincerely hope it doesn't end in tears.

As to the crews calling a halt to their own exploitation, or that of their young recruits, the day they let him sack their union rep without a whimper was the day they finally lost all respect. Not just in my eyes, and of many colleagues, but I would suggest in the eyes of O'Leary too. He probably couldn't believe his luck in getting away with that.

It's a slippery slope downward from there, and every time O'Leary sticks it to these guys in future they'll just bend over a bit more and say 'thank you Mr.O'Leary, will there be anything else?'.
Wimps.
But hey...it's a job guys. Right?

[ 09 December 2001: Message edited by: maxalt ]

[fast cruiser]

Having read the contract I think it is disgusting, talk about kicking people in the teeth when they are down, taking avantage of the current climate like that is just bollox!!!!!!!

[200KIAS]

I’m a fairly low time wannabe and would never consider R-Air after seeing this contract. Even if they sorted it out I still would not work for them. Me Julie says dey is nofing but Gangsatas.

[The Guvnor]

Mermose - if they wanted pilots with only 300 hours on type, then they would have advertised for pilots with only 300 hours on type. :rolleyes: You're in the wrong and you know it - go back to them when you meet their criteria of 500 hours!

I suspect you'll find that the minimum experience criteria is dictated by their insurers - you just have to look at the recent Crossair RJ crash to see why.

Picked this up from a thread over on Terms and Endearment on Ryanair pay, from Honest Joe:

I’ve covered this before on another tread ‘To Ryanair Pilots’, but the facts are these. Existing First Officers get approx £2,000 Net sector pay per month depending on hours flown, on-top on a basic of £26,000. All this delivers approx £3,600 take home per month. Factor in other benefits such as
– Fixed roster of 5 on 3 off 5 on 3 off (UK)
– Loss of licence cover £IR 150,000
– Share Option Scheme
– Pension scheme 5 % defined contribution
– Many of our co pilots are promoted in to the left hand seat within 3 years
– 5 year agreement with increases of 3% per annum for the next 4 years
– One of the few airlines to take delivery of new aircraft and not to make any of our people redundant


Looks pretty reasonable to me! :D

[CAT MAN]

'The Guvnor' so as well as everything else.You also do a little air accident investigation ...TOSSER...

[EPRman]

Guvnor
I have no axe to grind with you but I must ask what OzDude asked earlier and you predictably didn't answer. What are your management credentials and what is your flying experience? There is no hidden agenda to these questions I'm just curious. If you are genuine surely you can answer without being as evasive as you have been in earlier replies.

[Mermose]

GUVNOR, your figures are totally wrong. They apply to people who joined Rayanair before 01/10/2001. You apparently never saw the “new” contract. I did, and it has nothing to do with my experience. It’s just outrageous has these bastards take advantage of the crisis that affects us all. I have absolutely no personal interest in this as I work for a much, much nicer airline that also has to face the difficult times but still RESPECT us as pilots and humans. Again, because apparently you didn’t really understood, the purpose of this thread is to warn the colleagues who are facing difficult times about what they will find after paying their application: a really disgraceful “contract” made by people without any scruples. In other words, bastards. And there are much more people in my side than yours, read the posts…

[Deep Float]

Well, you can say what you want, but which airline gives low-hour guys like me a chance to fly jets?
OK, the contract isnt great, but I havent much to offer, experience-wise.
So after a few years, I will be able to join another airline with a better contract, or become a Captain with Ryanair, if they would hire me...

Get what you can, especially in these times...

[Captain Slack Bladder]

If my airline CEO spent as much time surfing as The Guvnor then the FR contract would hold the same appeal as imminent redundancy! Eye off the ball? :o

[bugg smasher]

While I’m on my soapbox here, I’d like to add some thoughts to the general theme of this thread.

Most pilot youngsters I know, given the choice between an evening with Pam Anderson and the chance of strapping on a bigger faster flying machine, would be immediately thrown into paroxysms of anguished indecision. (Our lady pilot colleagues are presented with a different set of problems, but no doubt equally and inscrutably as daunting. Unfortunately I have no data on the subject, input most welcome.) I myself freely admit, even in my advanced state of decrepitude, that this is a dire command decision for which no checklist has been, nor ever will be written. Such, however, is the nature of the beast.

The passion and dedication to the profession of any pilot worth his/her salt is such that we would rather accept degrading pay than be forced into a less desirable line of work. The personnel people know this, certainly at Ryanair, and use it to their own profit-oriented ends. Despite this unfortunate and temporary circumstance my friends, we remain endowed with a drive and energy displayed by very few other professional groups. We have a hard-earned claim to honor, our fallen comrades are eloquent testimony to this, our right to appropriate compensation is well justified.

I have always held a grudging admiration for the Asian cultures, most of which have been in existence for many thousands of years more than our own. As a necessary and logical adjunct of this accumulated cultural experience, they appear to have acquired a disturbingly profound knowledge of human nature. The personnel managers who devise and implement the bonding policies of certain carriers there, are in my view, the undisputed masters of that most arcane and blackest of arts, the subversion of human desire.

In a very real and historical sense, we in the West have taught those in the East the art of flying, they now return the favor by imparting to us some of the darker mysteries of the human heart.

[sgt.culpepper]

Maxalt, saw the item on MoL headlined SCROOGE over his cancellation of the Ryanair Christmas party. What is interesting is that the item should have made it on to the front page of the Sunday Tribune, and even more interesting, it was penned by the editor himself , who has been pushing MoL for sainthood over the years.Has the worm turned ? Has the media finally had enough, is the honeymoon over? (sorry! an inappropriate choice of phrase)can't they take any more of the deceptions ,the sleight of hand,the half truths,the downright lies ,the wild claims, the constant verbal abuse, the demeaning advertisements, the toilet humour etc. etc. You rem that old saying ..You can fool some of the people some of the time,....some of the people all of the time ,..all of the people some of time ,... but you can't fool all of the people all of the time!!. seems appropriate.

[maxalt]

bugg smasher, there's little on the subject of chicanery that the 'East' can teach a cute hoor from Mullingar, let me tell you.

sgt.culpepper, he's probably decided to cut the advertising budget and it's upset the marketing dollys in the Tribune.
Who says the truth ain't for sale.

It's predictable enough. His costs rose as fast as his revenues last year. Maybe he's losing his edge.

[ 10 December 2001: Message edited by: maxalt ]

[Firestorm]

Is that contract that RyanAir expect us to pay £50.00 to apply for? How stupid do they think pilots are? Or anybody for that matter.

Now you can see how they make their money, and it's not from 'bums on seats luv'.

And Gov, can you tell us who you are so that we don't waste our time and money applying to you for a job when you get your airline of the ground because we are getting a flavour of what your contract would be like, and what you would be like to work for.

Now where's the let's slag the Gov thread? :mad:

[B.Navez]

Gentlemen, and especially Guvnor,
Here are the facts:
F/O pay: 18000 Irish pounds/year
3000 paying applications received
They OWN their sims
And they push it so far that they mention your salary in Irish Pounds, but what you have to pay is mentioned in British pounds!!!
So, bastards or not? My answer is definitely YES. And believe me, I might be the low hours F/O that Guvnor is claiming about, but I can see clear in this, and I will need to be taken for a long time in the dirt before I can accept such conditions.

[vheijens]

As I've posted earlyer in some other treats:

It is about time we stop complaining about this meaningless airliner. They are the mob of the airline industry.
- Asking money for viewing your resumé is one illegal and two a very bad example for other companies.
- Flying from a Belgian base, and not having a single Belgian pilot, is just arogant.
- Using the Belgian goverment support money to give away free tickets. Is just f***ing the Belgian people.
- and so on.

I hope we can drop the topic Ryanair for now. And start posting again when one of there planes come down because they are saving on fuel.

http://users.pandora.be/linda.basstanie/TopFly.gif

[StressFree]

Guv,
Keep it up mate, things are about to get interesting.................

:cool:

[Pete Otube]

Can someone please explain exactly WHO is holding a gun to all these Ryanair applicants and FORCING them to pay £ or Punt 50 to accept its terms and conditions?

[Mermose]

Nobody, except their wife and children starving or about to, and the worse part is that they don't know the terms and conditions they are applying for. That's why it's good to let them know...

[Pete Otube]

Mermose- let's cut the crap. I am getting on for 60 years old and in all the countries I've flown and all the pilots I've met, I have never seen, or ever heard about one, with starving wife and kids.

..and that includes Indian, Bangladeshi and African pilots, let alone all the "unemployed" Irish and Aussies down the pub before logging on to their Pentium 4's...

[Magnus Picus]

I think we've all missed the point here. MOL/Ryanair are laying down the gauntlet to 'us pilots'. Their T&C's show exactly how much they value us, and on the question of loyalty, their bonding agreement shows how much they will expect of us. As a CEO, MOL has made an error that will come back to haunt him in a couple of years. When 'pastures new' beckon for the bulk of Ryanairs' pilots, the exodus will have such a huge impact on the "25% annual growth" airline that he will alienate his penny pinching punters. When even they will concede that £19.99 for a cancelled flight is not good VFM.

Moreover, a new start up airline consisting of an average Flight Deck experience level of 2 years is not my idea of safety. The only pilots likely to touch these contracts will be those who need the first rung under their feet.

Good Luck to those who take this contract, you are the new Victorian Factory Workers of our era. The clause about 'relocation' is worth showing to a human rights lawyer.

[max_cont]

I’m not going to defend MOL or his sharp business practises.

I think we all need to remember that he will get away with as much as he’s allowed too. If he is charging for applications and he is still getting plenty of applicants, then you can’t criticise his business acumen. The only group that’s at fault is pilots.

In the applicants defence, they are seizing an opportunity that’s a rare thing about now. A lot of us here on this forum have got employment. I’m not going to criticise the boys and girls looking for a job.

We as a group, tend to whinge at great length about management and the way in which we are treated by them. But when it comes to standing up to this as a united force, we bottle it every time.

Look at what the train drivers achieved in the UK, because they stuck together. We as a profession tend to be easily divided by self-interest i.e. pension etc, the various management teams know this and run rings around us at the negotiating table. This will continue until we stick together.

I won’t be holding my breath though.

[Pete Otube]

Like many in aviation and other, eventually, well-paid jobs, I started flying with a minimal contract and very low wages. But I will always be grateful for that opportunity as it was the first step to a long and rewarding aviation career.

Instead of feeling so vitriolic about FR - why not get aboard, take the money and gain the hours, and when something much, much better comes along -well you know what to do..

Just what is the problem - EVERYONE has to start SOMEWHERE. Why do pilots always want to start from the top??

[autobrake3]

Not that I condone the sad and low tactics of Ryanair, but I have also noticed a sudden increase in the whinging from a certain bunch of moules et frites eating types who were on strike the day their salary payer went bust. :p

[The Guvnor]

Magnus Picus - considering that FR have been around for the best part of 20 years, I hardly think the can be classified as a 'new, startup airline'!

Equally, I think that if life inside FR was unbearable, then their existing crews would have all disappeared. The fact that they tend to (more or less) keep to their schedules shows that this is not the case.

Also, bear in mind that if FR found it hard to recruit suitable personnel they would have improved their offer accordingly. That they have reduced these conditions would tend to indicate that they have a surfeit of qualified applicants.

[Mermose]

PETE OTUBE, I agree with you, “starving” was a bit excessive, but there are for many colleagues pilots lot’s of pressures to find a job and the way Rayanair acts is not human, taking advantage of the difficult times. It just reflects their poor mentality.
It’s just what I wanted to pinpoint here. If you read the posts, you’ll find that it wasn’t that much of an innocent thread. Also, as the Guvnor said, they probably have “a surfeit of qualified applicants” that’s why lowtimed pilots should not waste money in their arrogant and disgraceful on line application falsely giving them hope to fly by hook or by crook. Last but not least, as a recall, the contract we are talking about applies only to pilots joining after 1st of October. So they can keep their artificial feelings about the well-being of their existing crews. Rayanair is offending the honor of aviation industry, and they will pay it sooner or later.

[fergineer]

Just cannot understand you two winged master race. You moan when there are no jobs and you moan when there are jobs. To get on in this world you have to go with the flow. At the moment there is a surplus of pilots and people that need them can pick and choose, set the rules and if you dont like the rules don't apply, however remember if you don't go for it there are plenty behind you that will, then were do you stand apart from in the dole queue where have your principles gone then. I could spend 50 quid in one evening on a meal and drinks give me a chance of getting a look in for that money and its well worth it.
All I can say is that out of all the pilots that I know most of them would just get on and do it and thankfully all the whingers just seem to end up in the same spot, here!!! I know what its like out there, I am a flight engineer currently unemployed, 3rd redundancy in 5 years but am willing to get out and look for work and yes I have worked on a telephone help desk but to continue to work in aviation is my goal and believe me any work is better than none at all. Get off your high horses and go for it, waiting for the big break could be some time yet.
Rant over, feel better for that. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[DanishPilot]

No problem for me if Ryanair wants to make money on the pilots they hire, as long as they are open about it.

BUT, I think they should not charge pilots that THEY chose NOT to hire. What if someone goes all the way through the selection process, and Ryanair at their own discretion think they don't want him/her ? They don't have to give a reason, and apart from all the time he spent, he also spent how much ? 50 for application, 50 for interview, 150 for sim session. 250 pounds, plus travel and possible days off somewhere, just to be told "we don't want you and we are not going to tell you why. Have a nice day".

[tilii]

Fergineer

Well done, old chap, for continuing to show the traditional engineers' hatred (read jealousy) of pilots during your self-confessed unemployment. ‘Two winged master race’, indeed! :eek:

There are those who choose to “get on in this world” (going with the flow, if you like), and there are those who are quite happy to stand “in the dole queue” rather than compromise their principles. BTW, standing in the said dole queue does not mean that one’s principles have “gone” anywhere. In the case at hand, it is clear to me at least that the dole recipient in question would be a very honourable chap indeed if his alternative was to sell his soul to MOL. In fact, he would be a true ‘professional pilot’ with a realistic sense of his self-worth. Such chaps have usually contributed greatly to the Social Security budget, so why should they not take a little back while riding out their difficulty? :rolleyes:

If you are into your third redundancy in five years, I would respectfully suggest to you that yours is truly a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Good luck with your stated goal of continuing to work in aviation. Hasn’t anyone told you yet that the days of the flight engineer are over? Get used to standing in that queue, dear chap, you are likely to see much more of it in future. :D

My rant over too. Feel bad about it, though. Most F/Es I’ve known were fine chaps who got on very well with us ‘two winged master race’ types. In fact, my dear fergineer, most of the F/Es I've known saw the light and joined the 'master race', so to speak. Why don't you do likewise? Or is it better to stand, bitter and twisted and complaining, in your own personal 'dole queue?

Come to think of it, I hear there's this Irish outfit who, for £50, will stoop to look at your pilot application ... :D :D

[ 12 December 2001: Message edited by: tilii ]

[fergineer]

Tilli.
There is no hatred shown for pilos in what I said, I have never wanted to be a pilot and probably would not have the aptitude for it. I have been an FE for many years now and yes being one I realise that our days are numbered, I don't need you to tell me that.
What I implied on my post is if you wish to stand in the dole queue please do so I have and got zero help or money from them so yes I have to keep on looking. The whinges I am constantly hearing on this forum prove to me that a small minority of pilots just want everything given them on a silver platter it aint going to happen. There are more pilots than there are jobs at the moment, turn your nose up at any job at your peril, you may never get another chance. I take it your remarks are from a safe position in an airline the guys you are encouraging to turn their backs on jobs just cannot afford too.
Leave the preaching to the church get off your high horse. Why after 3 redundancies should I be calling the kettle black, I am looking for other work and do take anything that comes up so I am following what I said get out there and do it, if they don't and when the upturn does come they will not be ready for it.
Most pilots in my day were fine chaps also who also got on well with us FE's and there is no way I would say anything against them, its the young guys these days that need leadership from the older guys not the gung ho don't take that job sonny it will be no good for you. These young guys need to get out there and work. So the pay and conditions are not good its still that first rung on the ladder.
Don't ever assume that the FE that sits behind you is either jealous or hates you, each to his or her own job and when required will work together as a bloody good team.
I have seen them come and go in my 30 years in aviation so give me a bit of credit that I know something about the business.

[Idunno]

DanishPilot, I vehemently disagree with Ryanair charging pilots to read their CV. I don't think pilots should send in their CV to Ryanair until he withdraws that charge (ps. maybe that's what he wants to happen?).

However I do think your comment is rather..ummm...poorly thought out (being charitable here).

Any pilot who makes the comittment to apply for any job is taking a risk. There are no guarantees for any job applicant, anywhere. The £50 is a statement of interest. Be prepared to lose it.

Ya pays yer money and takes yer chance.

Or not, (in my case). :D

PS. I like the CV signature idea! Good luck in finding something. :)

[ 12 December 2001: Message edited by: Idunno ]