Tips on flying T-tail arrow wanted

[Sensible]

I will be renting a T-tail Arrow IV (non turbo) next week and plan to be flying it in to a 2000 ft runway on a daily basis. I have flown the Arrow III before but I understand that the IV is a little different and have been warned that it wants to land nose wheel first unless the approach is flown at a higher airspeed that the previous Arrow models. Clearly I don’t want to have a high approach speed on a 2000 ft runway and neither do I want to be landing on the nosewheel.

I shall be grateful for any tips or suggestions from somebody who is familiar with flying this particular type of aircraft.

[Final 3 Greens]

With all the usual caveats that I'm not an instructor .....

I flew an Arrow IV (non turbocharged) a few times from a 700M grass strip without any problems.

I didn't find any big differences with the T-tail - the approach speed was a few knots up on an Archer and the yoke needed a good pull during the flare (as all PA28s tend to), but it was a very controllable aeroplane and IIRC, the final approach speed was 75kts, so no probs on 700M.

The only issue on the one I flew was "winterization", which had involved putting a bl@@dy big battery in the engine bay, thus altering the balance and making the thing a little more front end heavy than would have been the case with a luggage compartment unit, but this was easy to deal with.

Overall, the Arrow "felt" more like a Cherokee 6 than a PA28, i.e. heavier than the 200lbs increave over the Archer at AUW would suggest.As an afterthought, I haven't logged time on an Arrer 3, but have on a 200B (low tail.)

The 200B pitched up/down quite markedly on gear cycling, the Arrow IV does not, presumably because the stabilator is out of the airflow from the roller skates ;)

[High Wing Drifter]

Sensible,

I have done only a few hours in a turbo Arrow IV T-tail that included the usual array of glides, flapless, short field, etc. The big different in handling is how heavy the elevator is - it is suprisingly heavy, my first stall recovery was hopeless. Not sure what you are trying to say about the speeds as obviously the only ones that matter are the speeds for the model flown.

[silverknapper]

Don't worry about it. I used one on an 1800ft grass strip three up and it was absolutely fine.
You're right, the nose wheel on it is a bit of a weakness and it's worth trying to hold it off it as much as possible, especially on grass. But then you probably do that on any aircraft anyway.
It was my first complex type after warriors/archers etc and I learned quickly about really flying it right down to the ground. I had been used to chopping the power earlyish, but if you do it on this the nose will drop quickly. That is perhaps what people mean by wanting to put the nose in. The speeds aren't that different, from memory I think 70-75 was more than enough. Just keep the power in.
Another small consideration is if you are on grass there is virtually no prop wash over the elevators so take it easy!
Enjoy! Having since flown a turbo 2, I preferred the 4. It had a much better wing and the difference, especially in the glide was quite marked.

[arrow2]

I own a share in an Arrow 4 T tail. Nice and easy to fly. Just use the book figures. Get used to it on a nice long runway before you take it into the grass short strip. I have landed on a 560 metre strip once - I was down and stopped in less than half the length, using 69 kts recommended short field approach speed with full flaps. 5 knot headwind then on landing, short dry grass.

Take off is always longer - I got airborne in about 2/3 of the length with 2 blokes on board, 1/4 tanks and a blustery crosswind. I was on the limit. I had done a detailed perf. calc. before attempting t/o.

You must work out the numbers - weight and balance critical, especially weight. I have 72 USG usable and can really only take all that if I have no more than 2 on board.

In summary get used to it, work out the numbers and fly the specified approach speeds. As others have stated once in the flare elevator effectiveness is lost quite rapidly so be prepared for a good haul back on the wheel, land it on its mains and the nose will drop on its own. It is not difficult to achieve a mainwheels first touchdown if your speeds are right. No need to come in fast.

A2

[Sensible]

Thanks very much for the assurances, I was somewhat afraid that I may be using the barbed wire fence at the end of the runway as an arrester wire :( - or renting something else!

[A and C]

Arrow2 makes some good points and as stated the W & B is critical as the T tail run's out of elevator authority quite quickly as the speed drops.

I find that almost all Piper aircraft land better if loaded towards the aft C of G limit as this helps with elevator authority at low speeds and a lot of the twins are out of the front C of G limit with full fuel and two people in the front seats.

Just to prove my point a few years back the editor of a well known magazine tested a PA34 with full fuel and two adults in the front and then said the aircraft landed better with two stages of flap as with full flap he ran out of elevator in the flare , hardly a surprize that you run out of elevator in an aircraft loaded forward of the forward C of G limit !!.

[Final 3 Greens]

A&C

Interesting points.

I found that the Arrers and PA32s were easier to land with a little bit of over trim (i.e. tail heavy.)

Sure, you have to monitor the airspeed and be quick to re-trim on the go around, but it reduced the probability of wheelbarrowing.

[A and C]

I have no doubt that a bit of extra nose up trim will help but once the elevator hits the stop you can no longer hold the nose up.
An aircraft loaded towards the aft C of G limit will give you all the elevator authority that you could want without the nose up trim.

There is a real danger that if a low time pilot takes your advice and "over trims" nose up in the case of a go-around the combination of pitch up from the aplication of power and the extra nose up trim will cause the nose attitude to rise to far and the airspeed to drop , most low timers are not to good with the rudder so the aircraft is lightly to be yawing.

The combination of low airspeed and yaw near the ground topped of with a low time pilot who is out of practice is a disaster waiting to happen.

On reflection I think that a slightly aft loaded aircraft making the approach trimmed for the flight manual aproach speed is probably the safest way to fly these aircraft.

[Final 3 Greens]

A&C

I understand where you are coming from, but on the other hand maybe its best that low houred pilots do not fly complex SEPs into 600M strips? (Not that I am implying that Sensible falls into this category.)

In the POH of one of the PA32s I flew, I seem to recall Piper recommended using the electric trim in the flare, but I never fancied doing that, due to the risk of trim runaway and a subsequent go around.

I know from experience that I can maintain the correct pitch up on the climbout with a degree of trim in, but certainly would not like to fight full aft trim.

By the way, the amount of back trim I was adding translated into 2-3 kts of airspeed, no more.

I agree that if the aircraft was loaded towards the aft of the C&G chart, this would not be necessary, but often I was flying one or two up and as I mentioned, the aircraft was "winterized", which was not helpful for a mains only landing.

[A and C]

I would love to know about the big battery in the engine bay, how is it fitted?, who aproved the mod?, was the aircraft re-weighed?.

It sounds to me that this "mod" is just covering up a problem with corroding battery cables that require replacment (there is a piper SB on the subject).

As to low houred pilots on short strips, perhaps not but the advice is still good for any GA afterall a GA is more likely at a big airfield under a high workload, I know its boring but I still think that the flight manual speeds are the safest way to fly.

[Final 3 Greens]

A&C

Not a cover up. Piper apparently delivered the aircraft to the first owner in Canada with this option fitted and it was reflected in the POH.

I can't remember the exact details, but IIRC, the battery was considerably heavier duty than the normal unit.

BTW, I didn't fly the Arrow below the POH v speeds, I trimmed it a little tail heavy to make holding off a little easier - sorry if this wasn not clear. This meant holding a little forward pressure on short final.

[arrow2]

BTW Sensible, please let us know how you get on with the Arrow this week.

A2

[A and C]

I can see how extra volts would be needed in a Canadan winter !.

[Final 3 Greens]

A&C

Quite - you could almost taxi the thing on the starter motor ;)

[Sensible]

Well, thanks for the assurances, I flew the Arrow IV for 18 hours in total and did around 26 landings including the checkout. I found that I had to pull hard to get it to leave the runway even though I set the trim for pitch up for take off then quickly used the electric trim for pitch level immediately after it left the runway. Since I hold the yoke using one thumb, index finger and middle finger, it was quite difficult to rotate and equally in the roundout and flare I was using the electric trim to reduce the yoke load. With power on, the aircraft flew very well, especially in the cruise. With power off, the nose wanted to drop and the aircraft felt very heavy. All of my landings were “firm” and I never managed even one “greaser” although I found that leaving a little power in until the flare helped with a smoother landing flare, otherwise, approach, roundout and flare all seemed to occur in very quick succession. I don’t think that a 2000’ runway would have been a problem but in the event, the runway I had intended to use was recently washed away in a storm. I was also taking off and landing the aircraft in winds gusting variously between 10 and 35kts and even in a 16kt 90deg crosswind it handled absolutely fine, probably the extra weight over an Archer helped.

Overall a nice aircraft for long flights but on balance, I prefer to fly the the Arrow II or III at least until I build up some arm muscles!

[High Wing Drifter]

Yup, my arm is still aching after today's general handling exercise! I had to use both hands in a 45-60deg bank to maintain altitude.

Edited for usual bad spelling, etc, blah

[englishal]

The first time I flew the IV from a relatively short runway, I got the fright of my life. Started to rotate and NOTHING. All those thoughts about leaving the control lock in with the end (of the runway) almost neigh, caused me to let go the throttle and yank the thing into the air with both hands. Went whistling up like a rocket :D with a big sigh of relief. Then the landing....got a little slow and had the elevator fully aft with the nose still dropping. It was a "firm" landing......

Still, nice aircraft to fly once I read the POH :O, the first one I've flown with a flight director..