Fly in China!

[DUXNUTZ]

Okay Airlines, New LCC in China recruiting expats!

``China is short of captains and co-pilots. We offer young foreign pilots an opportunity to grow,'' Okay chairman and president Liu Jieyin said. He estimated China will be short of some 8,000 pilots in the next 10 years.

``A lot of trained pilots in the West can't find an opportunity to put some experience under their belt, while we in China are short of co-pilots, captains and even technicians,'' Liu said.

That makes pilots, who have finished their training, but need more practice to improve their skills, a good fit for China's aviation industry, Liu said, adding that he intends to recruit more foreign pilots in coming months.

But the strategy is also about cost for startup carriers such as Okay Airways, which - with just six leased Boeing 737 aircrafts - is entering a market controlled by giants led by Air China, China Southern Airlines and China Eastern Airlines.

Experienced foreign pilots, a common feature of Middle Eastern airlines like Dubai-based Emirates Airlines, are too expensive for China's smaller airline companies.

These young Okay pilots will take a pay cut. They will receive a salary of about 20,000 yuan (HK$18,860) a month - higher than the 11,000 yuan that Air China offers its co-pilots, but well below any European standard.

But Schmidt's enthusiasm is undimmed. ``I would fly for less, as long as I can fly,'' she said. ``It's been my goal since I have been 15.''
Full link.....
http://www.atca.org/singlenews.asp?item_ID=2550:O

[nomorecatering]

How would they go if a 2,000 hrs GA piston pilot bought a 737 rating and applied for them

[Shagtastic]

Nomorecatering,

They'd love it mate.. subsidise their training costs for them.. why not work for free for the first 12 months then why you're at it?

[coaldemon]

Having been to China recently on business 20,000Yuan is not much money and you will have to really live like a local. 20,000 Yuan is roughly $2500USD a month so paying off your endorsement might take a little while.

[Chocks Away]

Good one Coaldemon...:ok:
Now that should put it in abit more perspective, for the "wanabees".

[DUXNUTZ]

Guys and Gals in the US are living (i hope) on 1300 USD/month flying CRJ's.............


At least in China there is those you-beaut street vendors with their local 'Yiros' that one can live on, on the cheap!

[The Enema Bandit]

Yeah. If you're into botulism.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Those young guys thinking about the possibilities in mainland China should consider why it is that CX/KA have to pay so much to attract peope to HK...they don't pay AUS$300-500k because they are nice people.

Any mainland China base you care to mention, Taiwan as well, would make HK look like a clean tropical paradise by comparison...and yet you naively believe you'll be happy on a small fraction of KA wages:uhoh: :ouch:

I was in and out of HK today actually...it was a nice day by HK standards...vis 7000m in pollution, broken cloud at 3000' (MSA 3-4000+) odd....all it takes is for the wind to swing around towards the north, Guongdong etc (ie Mainland China) and the vis drops to 4000m in pollution. Not on any occasion that I have operated into Shanghai, Beijing etc (the Chinese J curve) has the vis been much above 5000m in smog...similarly with Taipei and Kiouhsiung.

I have seen some parts of China which are as beautifull as anywhere...way out west near Tibet...and we carried an interpreter from China Southern because no-one, including the ATCOs, speak english out there...not even a little. Unlike the eastern side where they speak (their version) of english only when speaking to you....out west not even the approach plates ae in English (I sat there making english pencil amendments to the chart guided by the China Southern F/O, who spoke excellent english but had never been to our desto because it was deemed a 'Captains only' port such was the terrain.

CRM is still a bit of a mystery in China. I have had first hand accounts of Chinese Captains slapping the hands of the F/O away from the controls and then turning the wrong way into an approach...this in a corporate jet subsidiary of a major Chinese domestic airline where they train the young Cadets prior to them operating on mainline flights...bit like SQs LR45 program but using Hawker 800XPs.

I firmly believe Asia in general and Mainland China in particular is going to have a huge appetite for expat jet pilots for the next 10-20 yrs...experienced Captains who can train local F/Os....it will be a long time yet before expat F/Os, particularly inexperienced ones, become a major feature of domestic Chinese airlines...if ever.

And to get the pilots they need will take a hell of a payrise over what they're currently offering...or be prepared to crash a lot of aeroplanes instead.

[Point0Five]

All power to Chimbu chuckles !
they don't pay AUS$300-500k because they are nice people

[readbackcorrect]

Cant see a problem so far got to be better than single engine night IFR

[404 Titan]

readbackcorrect

Funny how some always think the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. Just remember that the big shiny jet syndrome will eventually wear off. When it does you will be stuck in a job that pays ****e, you have no protection under any labour laws because there aren’t any in china and believe it or not a very high cost of living. You will be treated like ****e and if you have a family, they will get sick very quickly living in a vermin infested dog box with nothing to do and no life. Do you think that this is very smart? I don’t. My advise is stick with the single engine IFR until something much better comes along because trust me, this aint it. You will regret it for the rest of your life.

[readbackcorrect]

The rest if my life, wonder how long that will be. Nah thanks for the balance to the topic. I guess as the 'shortage' takes a grip the remuneration can only improve. Guess it comes down to the contract u sign. Thanks for the heads up

[Chimbu chuckles]

Employment contracts signed in countries with few if any labor laws are simply not worth signing. They are modified at the whim of the employer with no input by the employee and no recourse either....they are in fact not contracts by any western definition.

Of course the employee is expected to follow the contract verbatim...if not you will be sacked and you can kiss goodbye any and all money they think you owe them...like draconian bonds etc.

Do a search on the Far East Forum for all the SQ threads...while you're there have a read of the OK Airlines thread. Aussies and Kiwis in particular get a huge shock when the contract they signed is ignored and the realisation dawns that they 'aint in Kansas anymore Toto'. Have a cruise around the ME Forum and see how often their contracts are modified to suit management's immediate short term, and usually short sighted, goals.

You think you have been screwed in GA in OZ/NZ?...you haven't even been fondled inappropriately.

There are some good jobs in Asia and I certainly enjoy living here and flying here...but there are no shortcuts to getting a decent job in Asia. You really are limited to companies like CX, KA and RBA where you can get a job with no previous jet time and can reasonably expect an upgrade to command in a reasonable time frame and good training along the way. The Asian LCCs, with the possible exception of Jetstar Asia (for however long they last), are in for a rocky road ahead pilot recruitment wise and flight ops standards wise.

Expat pilots the world over have taken a big hit in the hip pocket in the last 2+ years in Oz $ terms...probably 30%.

While it is true to say the standards at, for instance JAL, CX,KA, SQ (and their respective Freight Ops) and RBA are about equal and how much we are paid doesn't effect those standards much it is equally true to say that start ups won't be able to attract experienced pilots from the ever reducing available pool without competing on pay and conditions.

It is fairly true to say that CX/KA in HKG are on a separate plain pay/conditions wise and the rest of us (JAL, RBA, SQ, EK) are roughly similar given our respective local costs of living. I would even go so far as to suggest that the CX 'B' scale and the KA pay is not that much greater than the others given the extremely high cost of running a family in HK...where they make a killing is the accommodation allowance...the golden handcuffs...paying off a Oz$1 million+ apartment in 10 yrs while dipping into your own pocket for roughly 10% of that can really kick along your retirement planning. Being single at any of the above companies, particularly CX/KA, will mean you can save a BIG DOLLARS...even while partaking of wine, women and song on several continents:E :ok:

CX,KA,RBA,EK,JAL,SQ are all recruiting along with the various Asian LCC startups and Malaysian is losing local pilots hand over fist to Etihad and is hiring ex GA (Garuda) pilots on short term contracts. Gulf Air is recruiting while losing pilots to the others as is Qatar.

Airlines in the EU are recruiting and very few UK/EU pilots come to Asia/ME because the currencies are so weak against the Euro/Pound...even KA has trouble with Brits not wanting to come to HK and they pay well.

QF, Jet*, VB, ANZ are all recruiting as are their respective subsidiaries - Sunnies, Eastern etc... NJS is recruiting.

Fewer young people are learning to fly in any of the countries that traditionally export pilots to the expat world...Britain, Australia and New Zealand...fewer still are getting ATPLs. The Military air arms of those countries are a small fraction of what they were 20-30 yrs ago and they too are supplying a much smaller number of pilots to the civvy pool, let alone the expat pool.

Balance all of the above with expanding numbers of local pilots in the various countries of Asia and the Middle East. There are vastly more than there were 15 yrs ago but still not close to enough and young Asians are no more attracted to aviation than their western cousins, less so in fact, and for all the same reasons PLUS GA does not exist in Asia or the Middle East...and barely exists in the EU. They are almost all Cadets or ex Mil...a somewhat limited pool.

Against the above we have huge aircraft orders with Airbus and Boeing from all over Asia (from West Asia (India) to Beijing in the East) and the ME...and an economy in China predicted to keep growing at double digit rates for 20+ yrs.

Why be in a rush to sign up to Chinese sweatshop conditions in a half baked mainland LCC startup?

[DUXNUTZ]

Chimbu, Tell us how you really feel!!!

[Chimbu chuckles]

Sorry if you find my last post not negative enough...just figured there might be one or two who might actually benefit from someone else's experience. Or would you rather I said "Yeah go for it...China's the place to be with 2500TT and a 737 type rating on an Oz ATPL...oh and of course 2 I/R renewals!!!:rolleyes:

[OhForSure]

CHIMBU

Couldn't agree more mate. And I'm in the aforementioned boat. Good constructive post.

[Gnadenburg]

So our intrepid Oz Expat has bought a job on 737's in China.

The wage is absymal and after a few years you have a thousand hours on 737's and still the borrowing costs of your endorsement. You will never be promoted in China. Just like Taiwan.

So where to now? Another F/O's job. Will you ever get promoted?

Or are you better off paying your penance in the Australian aviation scene?

[Eimar Moron]

I'll pay for an endorsement and take a job there, because it's a stepping stone to a better job.
Some short term pain for long term gain.

Eimar Moron

[404 Titan]

Oh dear. You know reading some of these posts is like having small children and telling them not to touch the saucepan with boiling water in it on the stove. You tell them the dangers and the fact that it will hurt them but they have to touch it anyway. The outcome is guaranteed. Temptation and curiosity was just too much.

Let me tell you how it works in mainland China. There are no labour laws to protect you against unscrupulous employers. Just look at the coal mining industry. Labour contracts are severely slanted in favour of the employer. You just can’t break your contract like you can in most other parts of the world. If you do it there you may find yourself in gaol or being refused a visa of any kind back in at a later date. This visa issue is a very big problem if you have been offered a job with CX or KA because guess what, Hong Kong is part of China. Remember too that most large international airlines also fly to china. If you are forbidden an entry visa you are buggered. Do you think your new employer is going to tolerate one of their pilots not being able to fly to one of their emerging major destinations? I think not.

Pointing this out though, I’m a realist. There are those out there that are driven by temptation, curiosity and greed. Frankly go ahead and take a job offer there. I really don’t care, but I can tell you the outcome is guaranteed. You will get burnt.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Yup 404...I'd almost think I was talking to my 16yr old daughter on those few days a mth when she is, shall we say, less than open to reason.

Lucky for both of us she is a remarkably delightfull, accepting and mature individual the other 25 days a mth.

eimar moron....caveat emptor

[Eimar Moron]

It doesn't sound too much different to aviation in Awestraylar really, does it, 404 Titan?
After all, if I don't take it someone else will, then I'll be left behind.

The flying can't be that much different to here. After all Boeing makes those things so that just about anyone can fly them after a couple of hours in a simulator - well that's what I've heard.
Besides, to have an airline aoc, the Chinese (or anyone else) has to meet a certain standard of proficiency.


Eimar Moron

[Chimbu chuckles]

What breath taking naivety....simply breath taking.:(

[404 Titan]

Eimar Moron

I get the impression from your posts and personal details that you are a forum troll trying to wind people up.
Biography: Ignorant, but supremely confident.
Location: Eimeverywhere.
Interests: Teaching people a thing or two.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt for now.
It doesn't sound too much different to aviation in Awestraylar really, does it, 404 Titan?
You obviously have a problem comprehending what some of us have been trying to say. It is totally different. To quote Chimbu chuckles:
You think you have been screwed in GA in OZ/NZ?...you haven't even been fondled inappropriately.
You then go on to say:
After all, if I don't take it someone else will, then I'll be left behind.
Oh please give me a break. That is the oldest one in the book. How long, if at all, have you been in this industry? Five minutes. Some of us like Chimbu chuckles and myself have done 20 – 25 years. We have learnt from experience that those that are determined and patient will get what they want. Those that are impatient will fall by the wayside. Do your time, get some experience and the world will be your oyster. Asia is going to need so many pilots over the next 10 to 20 years that those airlines that want to survive will have to offer descent wages and conditions to attract the pilots they need. Those that don’t will shrivel and die. It is as simple as that. Don’t undersell yourself. You are worth more than that.

[Eimar Moron]

It's my turn now, 402 Titan - you have had your's (obviously).
This is an opportunity to get some jet command time on a popular aeroplane type.
So what if the job doesn't last, or I can only hack it for a year or so? At least I will have gained enough experience to move up the ladder.
Just because you have been lucky enough to get into a reasonable company, why do you feel I should be denied, now that there are some prospects?

You say don't undersell myself, but how long would you suggest I spend sitting around waiting for the "right" job?
This industry is all about taking the best job as soon as it comes up, or being left behind, even if it means having to "adapt", or putting up with a little less than others, in the beginning.
I have a mortgage and family commitments.

[404 Titan]

Eimar Moron

Yup, as I guessed a forum troll. It’s like a broken record listening to the reasons because you aint listening. Mate take the job, I don’t care. All some of us have tried to do is advise wannabes of the dangers in accepting a job like this. If you aren’t going to take the advice of someone who knows what he is talking about, you deserve the outcome. You are your own worst enemy. This discussion is finished.

[Eimar Moron]

How do you reckon on me as being a "forum troll", 404?

On the one hand a lot of you advocate treating the world as our oyster. Look at how many places Chimbu chuckles has worked in.
But when a job DOES come up, you advise us NOT to take it. :confused:
It's not like we'll be taking the job away from you......or is it?

[828a]

Chimbu chuckles and 404 Titan:

Do you two happen to know the meaning of " monumental killjoy " ? Elimar Moron would be well adviced to ignore everything you gentlemen have said and do his own thing. It is a well known fact that some expatriates find a lifetime of happiness working in the East and the reason for it is they understand that the journey is more important than the destination. Just because you both screwed it up hardly puts you in a position to try and influence others.

828a

P.S.

Elimar Moron; Igore them but be aware there is lot of these types around. They will never be content or happy where ever they are.

[Chimbu chuckles]

I never said don't come to Asia...in fact I'd encourage anyone as it's a great place to live and fly,as I said above...I only encouraged caution and a realistic approach.

With some good options in Asia why would you go somewhere like an LCC start up in mainland China.

And what was it I screwed up?

[404 Titan]

828a

Just like Chimbu chuckles, I haven’t told anyone not to come and work in Asia. The flying here is some of the best I have done and I would recommend it to anyone. With so many well paying jobs going in this part of the world, some upstart LCC still think they can take unsuspecting wannabes for a ride. All we are doing is warning people of these sharks. If you and others don’t take our advise fine. We don’t care, for as surely as the sun rises in the east, they will learn the hard way.

Please tell me what I screwed up? I would really like to know. Frankly I wouldn't change anything about the path my career has taken. Aus, PNG and Asia have been very good to me and very rewarding.

[DUXNUTZ]

Mr Chuckles!

I was just having a laugh your posts are highly appreciated....

[828a]

Chimbu chuckles and 404 Titan;

I'm glad we agree that Asia is a great place to live and fly. There is a degree of omnipotence in both your writings and I find statements such as " Chinese sweat shops and half baked mainland LCC start up " as objectional in the extreme. Typical expatriate remarks and you wonder why you are not accepted as the good friend you pretend to be. 404 claims 20 years of all knowing and suggests " get experience " but he does not say how. He must have learned to walk before he could crawl. We all know that it's hard to get a foot on the second rung of the ladder and it is made doubly so if one throws away opportunities because one is advised that boring suburbia is the best place to " get experience "

My advice to any fledgling aviator is to get the hell out of Australia and start living. Now I suppose you will accuse me of omnipotence.

828a.

[404 Titan]

828a

Accusing me of claiming total power is a bit rich. I am the last person to lecture to another. I will give advice though if I think it is warranted. Most of my Chinese colleges that I work with would agree 100% with my comments on the behaviour of some of the mainland carriers. It isn’t a secret in this part of the world what goes on in the mainland.

I have never pretended to be anyone’s friend. What you see with me is what you get. Infact I have had more differences of opinion with wannabes on the Fragrant Harbour forum because they don’t like how the Chinese now run Hong Kong compared to the Brits pre 1997. I have lived about a third of my working career as an expat. I am very well aware sir of the sensitivity that living in someone else’s country entails. I am also very aware of the dangers it can bring to the unsuspecting novus.
404 claims 20 years of all knowing and suggests " get experience " but he does not say how. He must have learned to walk before he could crawl. We all know that it's hard to get a foot on the second rung of the ladder and it is made doubly so if one throws away opportunities because one is advised that boring suburbia is the best place to " get experience "
I have never claimed anything. I have offered advice on something that I know something about. If he doesn’t take my or Chimbu chuckles advice, fine. I don’t really care. Do you think anyone of us had it easy getting up the ladder to where we are now? Most of us have slogged it out the hard way. There isn’t a magic formula for success in this game. What worked for one may not work for another. Taking this job may help him to get up the ladder but at what price to his marriage, his health, his financial wellbeing, i.e. paying off his mortgage in Australia, paying off his loan for his endorsement costs and then trying to live in China, all on the equivalent of AUD$3000.00 a month gross or AUD$36000.00 a year. Don’t forget his wife can’t work in China either. In all my years in GA (14 including training) before getting into the airlines I never intentionally allowed myself to get into such a predicament that I was going backwards financially. I also never put my family second when it came to my career.

[828a]

404 Titan;

There is one thing that I would like you and your pal Chimbu chuckles to take on board and that is that I helped dig the well that you two drink from. I accept that your advice is offered in good faith but you have sullied the waters by failing to understand there is a difference between East and West and that this difference must be accomodated. Strange as it may seem to you it is this very difference that some of us like. The reasons for this are a little to complex to enter into here. [ another day perhaps ] .

828a.

[Hudson]

Let's cut to the chase. If a GA pilot in Australia has (say) 500 hours total time and a brand new B737 Classic and/or NG type rating from one of the various "providers" Ansett, ETA, Qantas or Alteon then is this sufficient experience to get a job in China? If so, who does he apply to? Forget the hardships described earlier. It sounds no harder than living in a converted shipping container in NT or a caravan at Bamaga and flying a poorly maintained 210.

[404 Titan]

828a
There is one thing that I would like you and your pal Chimbu chuckles to take on board and that is that I helped dig the well that you two drink from.
And for that I can say thank you. Your pioneering legacy is a tribute to you. Respectfully though it is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
I accept that your advice is offered in good faith but you have sullied the waters by failing to understand there is a difference between East and West and that this difference must be accomodated. Strange as it may seem to you it is this very difference that some of us like.
I am very well aware of the differences between the East and the West. I make allowances for, and embrace them every day. I enjoy these differences and my wife and I immerse ourselves in them as much as we can otherwise we wouldn’t want to live here. My wife and I have travelled extensively over mainland China and enjoy the wide diversity of all the cultures living there. We believe life is meant for living and that is exactly what we are doing. This though is also irrelevant to this discussion. What Chimbu chuckles and I have been trying to say is that if anyone wants to go and work for this company or any other airline in mainland China you need to go in with your eyes wide open. If anyone thinks it will be a walk in the park compared to the places like the NT or Cape York communities think again. I would go as far as saying that even PNG would pale into comparisons with what some may go through trying to live in China on the conditions being offered. And yes I have worked in all these places and experienced exactly the hardships that they all entail. As long as everyone is aware of this and make a very educated discission based on this then fine. Just don’t let the big new shiny jet syndrome cloud a very import and for some, life altering decision they will have to make.

[Sooty]

Flew across China a couple of months ago at night. I was surprised at how quite it was. Hardly heard anyone on the radio. I would have thought with a country of so many people it would have been a lot busier. I guess this is a pretty good indication of the room for expansion.

There have been a lot of good comments on this thread, unfortunately for some people either through bad luck, timing or the fact that they just started late it can be extremely hard to get a good well paying job.

404 Titan, I think your last paragraph sums it all up quite nicely. For someone with low experience to age, something like this can certainly change your life...for better or for worse!!! I guess it's all a bit of a gamble. Just remember that when you leave Oz it is very very hard to get back in. Look at how many expats came flooding back home with VB's expansion. Almost all of them left better paying jobs with better conditions to come home. And now that gate has closed.

It's true the thrill of flying a shiny new jet certainly wears off pretty quick if you have to get off it each day and drive home to some sh*thole. It's all about balancing career with lifestyle.
On the other hand it'd be a hell of an adventure, something you'll never experience if you stay in Oz.

I did a similar thing and got opportunities I never would have if I stayed in Oz, and haven't regretted it. Hell why not give it a go, if you look at it purely as an adventure you can't get too disappointed. And then once you've got the time on type you can start being a bit more picky.

[828a]

404 Titan;

After reading what you have just written it occurred to me that perhaps you and I have more in common than was first apparent. Safe flying.

828a.

[Le Pilot]

I had the pleasure of working in China for almost 3 years.
From B738 delivery flights to the GSAs with a few foreign carriers.

I was treated extremely well but others were not so lucky.

Expat wives can work in China if the Foreign Experts mob allow it (My wife as a former purser with another well known Asian carrier was offered a supervisor's position) and many other wives were offered Teaching positions.. Poorly paid by western standards but a real bonus in China (5000-8000RMB/month)

Beware of the red tape that might put a stop to promises of positions above which you now have. FOs been promised commands, Grade one flight Instructors promised FO positions for 3 year's service or GA jocks offered Initial Jet ratings (First time I've seen this in China)

OK Airlines is run by a lot of ex Xin Hua Airline Captains (Hainan group) They did it hard in PEK but at least the cost of living in Tianjin is much less.
Get something in writing but remember if it ever goes to court in China..You will lose.

I hope this helps.