Air Deccan contract ? [Archive]

Phileas Fogg

21st Mar 2005, 14:17

Facelac,
Not with a bargepole!

They were playing several agencies off against each other and still wouldn't accept the lowest of the low rates offered.

They wouldn't put a month's money per pilot up front to an agency thus the agency wouldn't be in a position to guarantee the pilot a monthly salary, indeed any salary!

They attempted to steal addresses from agencies to contact the pilots themselves and offer then, reduced salary, direct employment, they have one A320 Captain there on USD4,000 per month.

They have some ex Army chappie there in charge of recruitment, never flown a commercial aeroplane but likes to call himself 'Captain' and the head of Flight Ops is even worse.

And all this going on whilst they have up to 5 A320's grounded due no Captains and 30 more A320's on order. One good thing though, last heard they had 5 A320's, expected to fly early morning until late evening, but only had 5 Captains, where else will you get to write your name on the side of an aeroplane!

What security will you have if you go, if you don't get paid then you complain, if you complain then you get deported I guess!

Earl

21st Mar 2005, 15:12

Beware,
Most of us have been on contract where we were not paid as per contract conditions.
In some cases not even at all.
I dont know anything about this company but I do know that if they ever screwed anyone over before they will do it again.
A good company always pays its employees.

facelac

21st Mar 2005, 15:15

Thanks for input Phileas Fogg

Sounds quite "exotic" . Hope the Army-guys likes to see the fleet lined up on the apron as they have been used to. Risky to sign individual contract I suppose ... and USD4000$ without housing !! Must improve to get crews I guess ?

Beeing at it let me mention that Windjet (based on Sicily) is a company to stay away from too. Management and ops like Vueling and permanent crews are trying hard to improve agreement now with growing production - ongoing legal action from both parts - while management is trying to get replacements for the permanent guys.

Rgds

Poontang Luva

22nd Mar 2005, 09:35

Are there positions for FO's as well? Or are they just short of Captains?

Cheers

Phileas Fogg

22nd Mar 2005, 09:45

Poontang,
They are short of Captains, money, work practices and passengers.

Passengers stranded as carrier puts flights on hold

KOLKATA: No-frills carrier Air Deccan, on Wednesday, announced the sudden withdrawal of services to the city. Nearly 120 passengers booked on Thursday's flight are now left in the lurch. This is the second instance of Air Deccan suspending operations for a prolonged period at short notice since starting flights to Kolkata a couple of months ago.

Though Air Deccan offered no explanation, sources said the Chennai-Kolkata-Chennai sector had been summarily dumped after one of the A-320 aircraft in its fleet was grounded. "On Sunday, a plane hit a boarding ladder while taxiing for take-off in Mumbai. Though it did operate for the day, it was subsequently grounded for inspection and repair. As a result, the Chennai-Kolkata-Chennai sector had to be sacrificed," an official said. There were two reasons behind the decision to drop the Kolkata flight. First, it was less remunerative than other metro sectors.

Second, being the only flight in the eastern sector, removing it made sense. "Plucking out a flight from another sector to service Kolkata would have further jeopardised operations. This decision caused the least disruption," an airline source said.

It may be so for the airline. But for passengers booked on flights the cancellation has wrecked havoc in their schedules. While the carrier will refund the fare, many who need to urgently travel to Chennai could get stranded.

The "now on; now off" operations on the Kolkata-Chennai sector has left passengers as well as the travel/trade industry miffed. While they acknowledge that technical glitches can occur, what they don't agree to is the absence of an exigency plan.

"The carrier must augment its fleet and start operations in the sector when there's a degree of confidence to service it properly. Sudden suspension of operations erodes passenger confidence," a travel agent said. Aviation industry experts, however, pointed out that such risks were part of the low-cost airline business.

"Unlike regular carriers, they cannot afford to keep a buffer aircraft. That would jack up costs," an aviation industry source said.

rsoman

22nd Mar 2005, 10:04

Dear Mr Fogg

Looks like Monsieur Passepartout is upto his old tricks again!

*****
And all this going on whilst they have up to 5 A320's grounded due no Captains
*****

Considering that I am seing one of their aircraft taking off everyday for the past few months - what you mention can't exactly be true is it???

They have five a/c of which the last two are just going to start commercial service from 28th.

Of the other three, yeah one has been out of action for some time this month. But that I understand was more due to the driver of a ground vehicle deciding to check out the structural integrity of a wing tip with predictable results!!!

And as far as lack of passengers - again I think some one's imagination is boiling over! The latest government statistics show that Deccan was almost on par with Jet as far as load factor goes. And most of the time if I try to fly them at short notice, I dont get seats either.

Let us face the facts, they are India's first LCC, started August 2003 with ATR 42s, at a time when every one laughed them off. Now we have every one slashing fares and introducing Etickets here in this part of the world, not to speak of a few more LCCs in various stages of launch (Kingfisher/Spice Jet et all) thanks to Deccan taking off.

I dont have any idea about the flying conditions et all, but they most certainly are not short of passengers neither are all the 320s grounded!

Phileas Fogg

22nd Mar 2005, 10:56

(up to 5 A320's grounded)

neither are all the 320s grounded

Rsoman,
Try reading what I said, I never said that all A320's are grounded. So, if there is no shortage of manpower then why are they advertising on FI website and using every dirty trick in the book to recruit Captains?

I think if you have a look, at the right time during the day, on the ramps at BLR & MAA you will find some of their A320's parked. They are repeatedly accepting applications, oh come to India Captain, we have a job for you but won't enter into dialogue regarding T&C's, salary etc.

rsoman

6th Apr 2005, 08:52

Phileas Fogg

I think I owe you an apology and I have no hesitation in tendering one.

I happened to subsequently interact with airline in question and found that these are the worst sort of penny pinchers. And after having announced with much fanfare about the launch of services of the new A320s ,taking in many (including myself) , for the past many days one aircraft is permanently on the ground (as confirmed by their website (check flight information)

Without doubt these are one bunch of jokers! Not to forget that the parent company who promoted the airline had a helicopter accident which was directly attributed to pilot incomptence (ref : DGCA accident summaries at www.dgca.nic.in). Now they are also crying that another proposed start up is now poaching their pilots! (at the salaries they offer are your surprised???)

Phileas Fogg

6th Apr 2005, 09:34

RS,

Thanks. Amongst a current fleet of something like 5 A320's they have the crewing for approx 1, if they bust the regulations then perhaps 2 but please note that the aircraft manufacture may be providing some of those pilots on a temporary basis. Air Deccan only have 1 A320 Training Captain of their own and it takes something like 100 sectors of line training to check-out a Captain in India,

If they just had one A320 parked then they could conceal it, if they admit to one being parked then in reality they have a lot more parked, in fact the majority of their fleet.

Yes, A320 & ATR pilots are going to other carriers in India, simply because they're offering a reasonable, even by Indian standards, salary, aren't trying to 'hoodwink' pilots into travelling to India to take up these positions whilst refusing to discuss T & C's and are recruiting via reputable agencies.

Try talking to the ex-army chappie at Deccan via email or phone, he's downright rude and thinks he's the first one to ever try to 'hoodwink' a pilot or agency. Perhaps Deccan will learn one day, probably be the same day that the lessors start to repossess their A320's & ATR's!

RS, but what salaries are Deccan offering, they won't discuss these with the pilots, are they actually offering a salary, where can this information be sourced and of course, if they employ the pilots directly then they will need to pay (a lot of) Indian tax.

picobello

6th Apr 2005, 10:50

A320:

1 training captain? only? strange.... and saw a 320 parked in Bangalore the other day.

Atr 42 :

Look like they fly a lot and no airplane grounded:hmm: Am I wrong?

My indian colleagues not interrested to go there due to very low salary and very bad working conditions:(

30 a320 to come:O the show must go on:}

rsoman

6th Apr 2005, 11:14

I had a chance to talk to both Jet and Air Deccan recently, both for ground based jobs. Never made it to Jet at the end, but frankly I was impressed. The interview was professional (after a thorough screening test one month prior) and the interviewers went in depth, and systematically on the subject trying to draw out the depth of your knowledge. You walked out feeling good (although a little disappointed naturally that you finally did not make it).

Deccan was a different cup of tea altogether. First they make come all the way to BLR from HYD (at my own expense - after all they are a LCC, arent they?) only to tell me that they dont have vacancies at entry level (now why they couldnt understand this from from my CV before calling me all the way is something I couldnt understand) . While I am on the way back they call me again that another of their honchos now want to talk . So I make my way back a few days later (again at my own expense) goes through an interview basically consisting of nothing but why I want to leave my current job and how much I want for the job with them and then am asked to call after a few days. I call back and the feedback is that beig a LCC they cannot "afford" to employ me!

I did ask how much they could "afford"- The answer was 175 Pounds a month! Not surprisingly I said NO when I would have to spend half of that on housing alone (BLR is one of most expensive cities in India) not to forget the fact that I spend 15 Grand (Pounds) on my qualifications!!!! Ah! Before I forget , there was another valauable feedback from the interview (and I am not joking) - YOUR PARTING HANDSHAKE WAS NOT STRONG ENOUGH (after all your are speaking of colonels and captains here!)

Now that there is feedback in the thread from both the flying and ground based areas, I can only join Phileas Fogg in requesting everyone to please think twice about going ahead in investing time and effort to interview with this set up. I took a big risk taking two days of unauthorised absence from my curent job not to speak of expenses from my own pocket amounting to something like 20 % of my monthly pay check and finally all this came to nothoing.

And if you do decide to go for it, please dont forget to PRACTICE YOUR HANDSHAKES!!!

Good Luck!!!

Phileas Fogg

15th Apr 2005, 13:57

yyzdub,
Foreign pilots are not changing airlines, they've never started with Deccan because of the appalling recruitment tactics thus they are free to go wherever they like.

And it is 30ish A320's and 30ish ATR's, just wanting to set the facts straight of course. No pilots, no capacity to train pilots but 60ish aircraft on order ..... Cool:ok:

rsoman

16th Apr 2005, 04:43

But of the 12 how many are provided by ATR/Airbus as an interim arrangement? By the way finally they got all five 320s on the air (if their website is to be believed) yesterday after a long time.
And Jet Airways is merrily dumping surplus capacity in many of the Air Deccan's routes at fares comparable to them . Remids me of the Peoples Express saga.....

Also reg pilots changing airlines, this is about Indian pilots switching over.

ZFT

16th Apr 2005, 08:09

As some of them (ATR foreign pilots) seem to be Central/South American, I would suggest none from TLS

Phileas Fogg

18th Apr 2005, 10:46

There is a solitary Colombian A320 Captain there earning USD4,000.00 per month.
There are 2 Airbus Industries TRI's, Deccan have their own solitary A320 Training Captain & Postholder but, and no joke, he has been in hospital from overwork.
I stand to be corrected but there are no agency pilots with Deccan because Deccan refuse to guarantee a contract or indeed a salary, Rishworth's were to provide pilots but the cheque(s) didn't arrive in the post etc. etc. etc.
A few pilots, as stated, ain't going to operate a fleet of 70ish aircraft and where will the training capacity come from to provide initial and recurrent training?

Airforce1

21st Apr 2005, 14:36

And for the ATR setup-is it just as bad as the Airbus, and how is the living standards like in Bangalore?

rsoman

22nd Apr 2005, 06:52

Bangalore is a great place to be, provided you have the salaries to enjoy it! It is the IT capital of India but that also means that since the average per capita income of the salaried class is high (compared to other Indian cities) , the cost of living is also proportionately higher.

Left Wing

24th Apr 2005, 08:42

All the Middle East, European airlines are looking for A320 Capts etc etc, how the hell does the "Capt" of Deccan, really plan to attract pilots for contract jobs, whilethe jobs in Gulf are permanent and offer a better deal.

Big Brother if you are REALLY watching, learn some thing from Jet Airways and hire airline professionals to run your co not, X army, air force chaps to run a LCC.

jumpdrive

9th Jun 2005, 23:07

any recent & fresh news from the AIR(deccan)
bye

STOKKEN

10th Jun 2005, 14:02

Yup I have news. There is one Agency out there for the moment, who has wangled a deal, via, via, not just with Deccan but with another couple of Indian Carriers as well and it is a very very good package.

It is one Agency who selects their clients and if they dont pay the price walk away. I believe this Company realise that there is a shortage of pilots and has had the guts to adjust the market accordingly.........:ok: :ok: About time too.... if you ask me.

jumpdrive

10th Jun 2005, 15:56

hi stok
can you tell me the name of this agency?
is it sigmar? aeropersonnel? PARC?
bye

Vimd23

11th Jun 2005, 02:10

I went for the Deccan F/O's selection procedure iin May at BLR. IT WAS A TOTAL HOODWINK . The written exam was no where near any standard.... they held the exam for the purpose of fulfilling an obligation towards the DGCA to have a so called proper procedure for induction. Anyways , EVERYONE who wrote the exam was called , no matter whether u got one quesiton right or all of them right. Then at the interview stage , the called as at 10:30 am and ended up holding the interview at 13:00 hrs.
The guy in the interview Narayanan , was totally arrogant , he thought he was the CEO of a company like one the first rung carriers like CX or EK or QF . They did not ask me a single question related to aviation , in fact the 1st question was can you pay Rs10,00,000 /-- for the ATR 42 Endorsement cost. I had already decided to say no. It was not even worth the experience of going for the interview which costs the train ticket and accomodation costs. My advice to anyone looking to join DECCAN , is DONT unless ure living from hand to mouth.

cheers
vimd23

STOKKEN

11th Jun 2005, 03:27

Hi Jumpdrive......... yup it a UK Company beginning with C.
Read another thread about Sigmar, on PPRUNE, I think they are a start up or something , nothing good anyway although we all have to start somewhere I suppose. Just that you need a bit of muscle and knowledge behind you with some of these dodgy contracts. I have worked for this 'C' company before, on loa.
Tough lady no b.........t if you know what I mean.:)

Left Wing

11th Jun 2005, 05:13

Tell Deccan to & *#@ OFF ! I second you Vmid23, this place is a joke. They have a real shortage of pilots and still give this kind of attitude.

Dont worry Kingfisher, SpiceJet, and JETAIRWAYS are all taking in Indian CPLs get your act tight study hard and you will get a job in these real airlines and not Deccan.:yuk: :yuk: :mad:

Clipper One

12th Jun 2005, 03:14

If you're trying to tell us this agency is Contractair I think I will die laughing!! Do a search here to find out the truth about them

No one agency has cornered the Indian market and that is FACT. The Indians would never restrict themselves to just one agency, it's not how they work.

Left Wing

12th Jun 2005, 06:36

Very true Clipper ! Shop around for jobs in India you will get what you are looking for.

STOKKEN

12th Jun 2005, 08:20

Clipper One. I didnt say that whoever the Agency is has an exclusive deal, I said they had wangled something..... read my mail again. I dont know how many agencies are there, but must presume you are an Agent to react so strongly.
Die laughing ,my friend then watch a few new entries into these Airlines and find out who they are with and what is the deal.....?? I know the deal for one Instructor going there, and it is top notch. Think you would eat your words if you knew. But of course shop around.... nobody is disputing that....... If I could get loa I would be off like a shot.......... By the way I do know that they only want Instructors though......... Only one way for you to find out mate eh???:ok:

Clipper One

12th Jun 2005, 14:20

Where did I react strongly?? I would have said the exact same thing if you had said PARC, Sigmar, IAC, Rishworth etc etc...I'm certainly not an agent and I would never go near one unless I absolutely had no other choice. Whats the point? Giving away part of your salary every month?? For what? So they can make one or two phone calls where you could just call yourself?

My point is all these agencies are exactly the same!! They offer nothing new, there is no differentiation between them. They all have to choose from the same body of pilots.

And above all, if the **** hits the fan, each and every time who do you think the agency sides with??

STOKKEN

12th Jun 2005, 15:08

Well well Clipper....... I would have thought by the way you reacted that you had had a bad experience with one, but as you would never go near one unless you really had to then you are not ( If I may say so without causing undue offence) be in a position to comment. There are good and bad out there true, but I have only positive things to say about the two I have ever worked with and it was nice to have their protection and support when things were not going as they should. Anyway Mate glad for you that you obviously have a full time sercure position and dont need the Agencies as some people do. For some it suits, and this is going away from the topic of the thread which was Air Deccan. And as I previously mentioned it appears that they dont all have the same deal which is where I started. But, if you don`t need to go and work there then shouldn`t worry you should it, but if you are going to work there best to make sure that you get the best deal and the best support....:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Clipper One

12th Jun 2005, 16:11

This is an honest question Stokken,

Do they really support you?? How far can they go in supporting you, really.

You know as I do, how pilots talk and I have only ever heard negative things about these agencies. I just don't see the point. Why not just go directly?

For example, you see an ad on an agency website for a position "with a carrier in Taiwan". You don't have to be Einstein to work it out so you go to the airlines website and it's careers section and there they are advertising for pilots to apply!! I mean why go through an agency for something like this?

Sorry man, I just can't see the point! But maybe in the future, you never know, I may HAVE to use one! So in that case, who are the best in your opinion and who are the ones to avoid? I have heard the Hawaiin crowd are good but this IAC agency are shocking. I read here an open letter from a desperate pilot and he didn't even know their address as they didn't have one! Some vague area in Fiji he thought....

Left Wing

14th Jun 2005, 02:06

You should not worry about a " place like India" most of the CEOs & managment pilots of the new airlines are all xpats.

Other than that pls read up on India before you plan to take up a job there, rather than cry about it, its as safe as any other xpat location and yes much much better than Vietnam and the lot.

Tutaewera

14th Jun 2005, 03:41

Doesn't surprise me about the recruitment army guy "Captain".

I had a DFO in a neighbouring South Asian airline with no ATPL (go figure the CAA!) and a new F/O's position who called himself CAPTAIN and ran around with 4 shiny bars introducing himself as Captain ......... MFO / DFO (& bar?). Std in this part of the world I'm afraid - what a joke! They often have far more interest in titles, flash uniforms and image than competency and respect of sub-ordinates / colleagues.

As for the contract and their dishonest techniques - follows on from above. My advice - don't touch anything in South Asia unless its through a known agency or you have $ up front. Preferably with good accom provided (a known hotel chain). Dealing with local landlords or believeing employer promises about "expat" std accom is (in my experience) very risky.

Honesty is not such a strong value there... You have been warned!

:\

jumpdrive

14th Jun 2005, 10:52

I agree on evrything all you guys have said
its true, they just call you the 1st week you reach them, and then nothing, seems impossible to receive back a phone call.
talking bout the option of going straight, it depends, as some have already said, on the company, or even the country, of what heard, Deccan doesnt want to take into their hands hiring and selection of expat captains, only Sigmar and aeropersonnel are the agencies dealing with AD
Have friends flying all over the world, some through agencies and some direct employed, they tell and compare both sides, and then again, you have advantages and in some dont, i have worked so far in 2 airlines over the past 16 years, and both have been directly employed, deccan would be the 1st to be through an agency.
wich way better, hard to say, if your hired in an airline directly, you would have to deal with taxes, housing, transportation, almost everything, on the other hand through the agency, all those items are covered during your contract.
and even some agencies like hawaii aviation, they dont take care of taxes, dont give you house, instead they give you $2000 and then you have to go shopping for a roof
theres a lot out there to decide, one thing for sure is the money
6000 of the greens for an ATR, agency or not, geez thats a lot
tell it to the guys flying PIC 737NG or 767 for less
and it makes them wonder or think it twice, and their flying for nationals
well like I said theres a bit for all of us to make up our minds
keep the faith
:ok:

Phileas Fogg

14th Jun 2005, 11:58

Let's just say, there was an A320 Captain, directly employed by AD on a salary of USD4,000 per month.
Once he realised that AD were taking the p1ss he tendered his resignation. At that point, somewhat conveniently, AD mislaid his passport and it took them some weeks to relocate it, of course all this time he had to continue flying for them.
That's direct employment, or indeed any employment, with AD for you!

Phileas Fogg

14th Jun 2005, 16:24

YYZ,
I can't divulge my source or how I obtain such information but I can assure you that it is very factual.
PF

Phileas Fogg

15th Jun 2005, 11:21

YYZ,
My facts, examples as you refer to them, are so factual that I can even tell you that he was of Colombian nationality.

Are you on the ground in Bangalore 365 days a year or are you just protecting your, Sigmar's, most valued client from the apparent, defend them at any cost, stance that you take on any occassion when someone dare say a word out of place against either?

So, AD are the perfect airline, they pay the best salaries, they don't bull**** anybody, they pay all their invoices on time, not a single day late, they don't mislay passports, their one A320 Training Captain was not in hospital from overwork etc. etc. etc. Yep they're great!

Are you happy now YYZ, I've read your book of BS, now I'm brainwashed like you also!

PS.
YYZ, I'm surprised you've got time to post during your office hours, shouldn't you be running around looking for that VIP B767 crew out of Jordan, like every other agency is, for this Saturday? Chop Chop!

Phileas Fogg

15th Jun 2005, 13:32

YYZ,
You seem very intent in turning this into a childish slanging match, please excuse me if I refrain from playing your games.

I have not repeatedly or continued to slander Sigmar, I made, I recall, a solitary post, you responded and I left it at that.

I made a more recent post regarding AD, you interfered, what the **** has it got to do with you, you are merely a customer of AD, one can say what the hell they like about them and it's got diddly squat to do with you or Sigmar.

You're the one that brought Sigmat back into topic, not me nor anybody else so please stop posting your crap that I continue to slander your company, I don't!

You need to grow, stop reading into something that is not there and stop taking everything so personally.

yyzdub

15th Jun 2005, 13:50

PF - all one needs to do is do a search on your name in PPRUNE and it soon becomes obvious as to who you work for and the reputation you and that company has. Again, please don't use these forums to tell lies about us to make yourself look better. It's easier to accept the fact that you win some and you loose some - it's called business. And instead of constantly slandering and slagging, you should use the time to find new business - as you say, Saturday is just around the corner.

Phileas Fogg

15th Jun 2005, 13:59

YYZ,
Shut up, so I work for Sigmar, Air Deccan, Astraeus, Storm, Brookfield, Jet Airways, Biggin Hill Airport, Bromley Court Hotel, Rishworths, John Travolta, EU Jet, Manston Airport, Emerald Airways, East Midlands Airport, Imperial War Museum Duxford, Sky Europe .............

Get a life!

yyzdub

15th Jun 2005, 14:03

Wow - that must keep you busy! I applaud your efforts.

Phileas Fogg

15th Jun 2005, 14:14

YYZ,
I have just been informed that AD are monitoring these threads. By your repeated defence or arguments in favour of AD you are keeping them in the 'bad' news.

Haven't you yet learnt, if you leave something be then it is soon forgotten about and will find it's way into the archives. By continuing to post you are keeping it fresh and in the public eye.

I don't think AD will be best pleased with you!

PS, to do a proper search, you go to a persons profile and select all posts by that user, you haven't got a clue who I do, or do not, work for!

STOKKEN

16th Jun 2005, 04:45

Clipper One. Sorry Mate had to go off and do a bit of Aviating....

As yourself I am employed full time by an Airline but you know what it is like firstly they have too many pilots then not enough. Last year thoughI got Leave of Absence and then two years before that the winter off . I have worked for Two Agencies and as you read PPRUNE and know that there are good and bad out there and new ones and old ones and those that pay and those that lie and those that cheat and those that will fall over backwards to please their client and sod the workers....... However.. PARC were OK. They paid on time, although they were never around when you made a call. If ever you called them for anything "they were travelling". Big Travellers PARC. But I got my dosh and managed to sort out the problems I had.
Then I worked last year in Italy for Contractair and what can I say, there was a fine balance between client and pilot. Always paid on time, immediate response to calls and e. mails, and believe it or not no problems whatsoever. In fact it was a joy to work with these guys. They cared. I believe it must be difficult for these Agents as they have two people to please us and the Airlines. But not saying there were not problems with the roster and such like there was, but it seemed to get sorted with no problems whatsoever. I have had pals in the same situation as myself who have gone further afield to work and they were not happy with their Agencies. Anyway I am not here to do promotion for Parc and Contractair, but I know without a dount if the latter needed me and I could get loa then I would not hesitate. Lets say I TRUST them. A big word in Aviation I think.
See there has been a bit or arguing going on between our remarks....... But this is my opinion anyway..... Like you say though better of course to work directly.:ok: :ok:

Clipper One

16th Jun 2005, 07:12

Cheers Stokken. There seems to be a big fight going on between Sigmar and some guy from another agency on another thread. Certainly doesn't look very good.

Phileas Fogg

17th Jun 2005, 19:59

Following PM received from Sigmar Aviation (YYZDUB), he had been trying to silence me but then he put my back up (edited to avoid boredom setting in):

Phileas Fogg,
If you go back and re read what has transpired through the forums here, you will see that there was no ‘biting’ as you put it at the ‘mere mention of one of our clients’, rather it was a defence to what we know to be false. Air Deccan is not our bread and butter and in the grand scheme of things, irrelevant to what has transpired here. Instead, as with similar situations, I would voice my opinion and thoughts to what I believe, and have said all along, to be false.

I agree 100% with what you say about good and bad customers and that some clients are far from ideal. At no time did I ever say Air Deccan was the perfect airline, paying the highest salaries, etc. as you referred to me as having said. However, we do have a close relationship with them, we have a number of pilots who have been onsite for a length of time and as such have voiced what their concerns and what they have experienced and as a note, for the most part all are quite happy with their arrangements.

As for the Colombian pilot. I will admit that I have no idea about his situation. What I can comment on is that you can’t fault Air Deccan for paying the pilot $4000 USD and working him to the max. The pilot always has the option to walk away. Furthermore, I know of no circumstance where someone has ever had to forfeit their passport to their employer be it aviation or any other industry and I find it extremely hard to believe that AD would withhold his. We are talking about a grown adult who would know that he could just take himself to the nearest embassy and request a new passport or report the instance to whomever. He is not working in a communist county, albeit their practices may not follow what us ‘Westerns’ may consider the norm, but for someone to not do anything about something as serious as a passport is just silly.

So, how can you get upset with me for saying that you are a liar. Your post is completely false. We have always had the contract and secondly, as a company we are new, but our experience collectively could be one of the most extensive in the market.

Anyway, PF, I hardly believe what comes out of your mouth – you’re naming opinion as fact rather than what it is – either second/third hand information or just that, opinion.

There is certainly an arrogance to you – I only hope you use it as an alias online and not in your personal life. Best of luck to you.

jumpdrive

17th Jun 2005, 20:05

hey guys!!!

CHILL OUT

:ok:

NZLeardriver

18th Jun 2005, 00:21

Uhhh, doesnt the P in PM stand for PRIVATE message?

rsoman

18th Jun 2005, 06:10

Furthermore, I know of no circumstance where someone has ever had to forfeit their passport to their employer be it aviation or any other industry and I find it extremely hard to believe that AD would withhold his
**********

Well first - what I DONT KNOW- what AD does reg the passports etc.

Now, What I DO KNOW- Passports being held by the employeers for overseas employees is common atleast in many Middle East countries. I should know , my brother works in one those countries (not in aviation agreed - but as a computer engineer) and from him and from many other acquaintances I understand this is standard practice in many such countries.

So please dont make sweeping statements that passports are not held by their employers anywhere etc. Even in India (and again I stress I dont know anything specifically abt AD), it is quite common to find some employers holding onto their employees original educational certiciates etc - so that the staff dont move to another job without adequate notice etc.

Yeah you can always preach the idealism - look for another job et all - but when you have some 1000 people on an avergae chasing for 1 job, sometimes you may have to give in to such compromises etc.

There is something called er unemployment......... and it is not pretty!

STOKKEN

18th Jun 2005, 06:40

YYZ....... and Phileas. It is very obvious to me that you YYZ are Sigmar and not sure who Phileas is. cant figure that out. But to be honest if you play these childish games and argue so much wouldnt want to work for either of you. So come on Phileas who are you with. Just one other thing and this refers to Jumpdrive.
Sigmar and aeropersonnel are not the only Agencies with Deccan.
Get your facts right.................... But to be honest YYZ for a new Agency as you say you are, and wish you all the best mate, I think it is time for you to cool it. All the others get a trashing on PPRUNE, Rishworth Parc, but you dont see them reacting as heatedly as yourself.

Lastly there is mention of Passport......... yes it is true that a lot of Middle East companies retain your passports. Not Aviation companies However my advice is if you are ever ever employed with a company who asks to retain your passport get another job!!!!!! NEVER NEVER let go of your passport. What happens if you are stuck in the middle of a terrorist attack somewhere. No Passport. Doesnt bear thinking about. Tell the company to get stuffed. There are plenty of jobs out there, Look at the agencies pages. Just find a job where you dont have to give them your passport. That in my view is a definate no go. Sure they can borrow it get visas etc, but always get a signed piece of paper and always ensure that you get it back. A passport belongs to the Holder no more no less.......::suspect: :suspect:

Raw Data

18th Jun 2005, 11:34

Wrong. A passport belongs to the government of the country that issued it.

I wouldn't part with mine unless at gunpoint. There is no earthly reason for an airline to retain a passport, other than as a means of keeping you in a country.

rsoman

18th Jun 2005, 12:45

I wouldn't part with mine unless at gunpoint. There is no earthly reason for an airline to retain a passport, other than as a means of keeping you in a country.
**********

May be that is the whole idea - Before you go off on that dream vacation, how about letting us , the management,know so that we can do a simple thing like trying to put some one else in your place - after all - we have a small toy called an airplane to fly!!!

Not entirely joking - one airline here in this part of the world (not AD) had to cut down on its schedules by 10% virtually overnight - because some of their senior commanders ( but not expats) decided to go where the grass was greener - or I heard browner!

Labour laws are not water tight everywhere Monsieur RD! And sometimes it works against the bean counters too!

Cheerio

STOKKEN

18th Jun 2005, 13:02

You are correct Raw Data, but as far as I am concerned my passport is mine and if an Airline RSOMAN has to hold onto their pilots passports to stop them jumping ship doesn`t say much for the Airline does it............????? Anyway heard or Freedom of Choice. A pilot can work where he wants to work. Still saying dont give them your passport, I would immediately be suspicious of any Airline asking for mine.. In fact I would pack my bag with or without "greener pastures". :suspect: :suspect:

rsoman

18th Jun 2005, 13:32

Stokken (and RD)

Please be rest assured that I am with you totally on this one. All I was trying to highlight is that conditions are different from country to country and in some parts of the world you necessarily dont have much of a choice (as Stokken himself said - in the middle east for eg - for non aviation jobs).

I guess we are digressing and it is better to get back to the topic - AD contracts.

Phileas Fogg

18th Jun 2005, 16:48

NZ,
Yes, P does stand for private, a little bit like my telephone number is private but should I decide to share it, then that is my perogative.

RS,
Yes, I pretty much agree. YYZDUB is obviously quoting rom his text book rather than from the real world. Please note that he previously told me that my report was 100% false but in private, so he thought, he admitted he had no knowledge of it.

YYZ said easy enough to get another passport but is there a Colombian embassy in India, how are you going to depart India with a new passport but without an entry visa, you need to wait for the paid ticket home, the airline tell you they'll give you your passport tomorrow, then another tomorrow etc. and at the end of the day, you also need to get your salary. What a text book world Sigmar Aviation live in?

Stokken,
Who I work for, which is not an agency I hasten to add, is irrelevant. I am here as a private individual, the same as you are and everybody else is, well everybody except YYZ!

A pilot can not work where he wants! You are obviously European with a JAA licence. Just for starters have you heard of licence and immigration restrictions and then of course there are minimum experience requirements.

Just where can a Colombian work with his Colombian licence? Get real!