Level of service question.

[Flap40]

Inbound to a UK airfield today that does not require descent out of CAS to get to.
Whilst in "the zone" and in receipt of a radar control service we were vectored out into class G by up to 4nm (checked on the 1/2mill when I got home) during downwind/base/final.

The questions:

a) What service were we actually receiving at this time?
b) Should we have been told about the "zone exit"?
c) Should we have been asked if we minded being vectored outside?
d) If we have an airprox as a result who "carries the can?

Discuss :)

[ayrprox]

probably:

A) the controller still considered you as under a control service and would have treated you as such
B) Yes you should havew, followed by readjusting the service
C) Again yes, but in this scenario it was probably a misjudgment in heading or a late turn, everybody makes mistakes, even pilots:E
D) only one answer here, the controller.
But no airprox happened, you weren't approached, no one died. If you have a problem with it ask the controller at the time or if they're busy call the tower/apc/area unit when you land!
Just my 2p's worth hope it helps

[Standard Noise]

Pretty much agree with ayrprox.
If you were vectored out of CAS into the FIR, the service should have changed to either RAS or RIS, but regardless of whether it was intentional or not on the controller's part, you should have been informed of the change of service.

[2 sheds]

However, is it notified in the AIP that vectoring might be outside/below CAS for a short period without the service being changed (twice)?

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

I would tend to agree with the previous posts. Just one minor observation, I wouldn't envisage a civil controller downgrading to a RIS whilst continuing to issue vectors to an aircraft. I may be wrong.

[Standard Noise]

Can be done, but it's not what you'd call an everyday occurence.

[Evil J]

Further to previous posts it does happen quite a lot at EMA (sorry NEMA!) and as said above we should change the service to RAS and then back to RCS but if we are having to take you that wide then chances are its pretty hectic so why bother make 2 extra transmissions-simple answer is we carry the can and if we can see somethng out there we wont take you out there!!

The reason it happens at NEMA (usuall during the rush in 9 -10.30pm) is simply down to airspace design and the fact that the CAA, despite having had 18 months to do so since the radar "upgrade" ("" used deliberately!!!) STILL havent given us back our 3nm reduced separation approval-you try and keep 5 mile separation in a zone only 4 1/2 miles wide.....its no wonder a few leave CAS is it really!!

And i should add that the airpsace changes of May 12th should sort things out ..and make 09 ops even more...interesting!!

[Flap40]

Thanks all for your answers. This is something that happens reasonably regularily at this airfield (it's not EMA!) and when I asked directly in the past the answer was something along the lines of "it's that or go round the hold". Since we did go round the hold first and then were still vectored outside, even more blatently than usual, I thought that I'd ask so I know what the options are for next time.

[letMfly]

Suggest you 1) Embarass the controller by asking "confirm we are still inside CAS", and 2) Report it to the Watch Manager after landing.

If you don't complain it sounds like it will keep on happening until a "nasty" catches them out.

[benedictus]

The service should automatically be altered to RIS / RAS if you leave controlled airspace, even briefly - Anyone who has been through a radar course at the college of knowledge will tell you that (Many have failed because of it)

I saw a similar thing happen today with a trainee, busy frequency a/c descended and then forgotten about until prompted, by which time a/c had gone about 1/2 mile outside CAS, quickly turned, but due to winds ended up about 3 miles outside, no safety implications, a/c terrain safe, no other traffic observed.

During the debrief we discussed what had happened, what wasn't done, what should have been done., A valuable learning experience.

As for what to do from the pilot side of things, if you have previously spoken to the watch manager about this and been told "it's either that or hold" and it still continues to happen after you have hel, you have several options:

1. Continue complaining (no doubt falling on deaf ears)
2. Saying something on the RT to embarass the controller - "Just Confirm we are Terrain Safe outside CAS?" will probably do the trick
3. CHIRP
4. ASR

[Evil J]

I dont think any of those options would be appropraite for EMA( I accept that we are not talking about EMA in this instance) given that just about all of the affected operators frequently cut the corner outside CAS from CLN DCT EME.

Certainly if anyone filed an ASR on me for just taking them slightly outside they might find me very reluctant to provide other ATSOCAS in the future!!!!

[Spitoon]

Ahh, it could be just like the old days at EMA again if you do that EJ!

[throw a dyce]

Flap 40,
It might be useful if you could hint about the airfield concerned.Sometimes the situation can't be avoided and I certainly don't do it on purpose.Here the airspace design and the position of the holds leave very little room.This coupled with very slow helicopter traffic,the requirement for gaps for tower,a useless airfield layout with no high speed exits can lead to slightly over the dotted line.
Here we bend over backward to provide services outside CAS to airlines only interested in saving money,and risking passenger safety by direct routeing in Class G.We provide RAS to all traffic requiring vectoring in Class G.Vectoring slightly outside CAS shouldn't happen but it does.OK the answer is stay in the hold longer,perhaps long enough to get a few more helis in front of you.:cool:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<This is something that happens reasonably regularily at this airfield (it's not EMA!) and when I asked directly in the past the answer was something along the lines of "it's that or go round the hold". >>

That sounds totally unprofessional and potentially dangerous to me. Suggest that if you don't want to pursue it yourself you get your ops people to take it up with the ATC unit concerned. If it keeps happening start filing.....

[055166k]

Letter from your chief pilot to ATC unit concerned, stating that your company aircraft are not to be vectored outside the zone and are prepared to hold until the appropriate marshalling can be achieved.
I'd start carrying a bit of extra gas if I were you!

[Spitoon]

Whilst 055 and HD are technically right in their advice, unfortunately both appear only to have lived in the rather cosseted environment that is NATS. In the real world :rolleyes: with very limited airspace there often is no option but to vector traffic outside CAS if any amount of traffic is to be moved.

If you're going to take the trouble to write letters, you might be better advised to address them to the airspace people at the CAA and ask for the protection that your aircraft, crew and passengers deserve.

In the present circumstances many controllers have little option but to vector outside CAS .... but not to advise the crew when they're taken outside is wrong.

[Standard Noise]

Indeed Spitoon, but you know what the naysayers and assorted experts from NATS are like. They don't remember what working outside CAS is like, unlike the rest of us. After all, tis not easy keeping each and every a/c inside the line when you have a zone the size of a kumquat. Even less so when it's not actually attached to the airways system.
Thank god it soon will be.:uhoh:

[055166k]

Fear not....master plan of new airspace [ Cheddar TMA ] given to el Sid at secret ceremony on South Coast yesterday. From 2006 onwards everything will be safe.......but until then !!!!!!
Funny thing though, if there was a giant marketplace event which had significant potential impact for the UK economy you could have most of the prime airspace in the South-east.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Spitoon. I feel for you and I have worked outside CAS at a very busy training airfield (EGTK) so I know what it's like running a stack in "Indian Country". Nevertheless, as a Heathrow controller I frequently worked traffic both in and outside CAS and made it clear to those outside what service they were getting. If where you work is not served adequately by CAS then I suggest you just keep filing MORs...

I agree on the need for CAS wholheartedly - when I first joined GATCO in 1967 I wrote many letters asking why it was only "Ministry" airfields which had control zones and it's only comparitively recently that the situation has changed. Unfortunately those who fly clockwork mice and gliders seem to have an incredibly powerful lobby, over and above the fare paying pax who deserve all the protection CAS can give them.

[PPRuNe Radar]

If you're going to take the trouble to write letters, you might be better advised to address them to the airspace people at the CAA and ask for the protection that your aircraft, crew and passengers deserve.

For many years now the onus to ask for more airspace has been on the user, usually through the ATC agency who will be controlling said airspace. They will have to prepare an Airspace Proposal, do the environmental assessment, and also carry out consultation with everyone under the sun.

Maybe the pilots letter to the ATC unit concerned can ask why they haven't got off their butts to request more airspace, if they are unable to cope without sending aircraft outside the CAS they already have ?? :p

It isn't the CAA's job to do that for them anymore.

[Spitoon]

HD, Thank you for your kind concern. I trust that when you worked traffic outside CAS at LL it was when you were doing Thames! And at least at TK you couldn't *see* all the worrying things!

P Radar. You, of course, are correct that the CAA doesn't establish airspace of its own volition anymore....but doesn't it have responsibilities to keep things safe? At the very least, it would be nicer if it wasn't such an uphill struggle to get some much needed airspace....and if the goalposts didn't move just after you've kicked the ball! And call me a cynic if you will, but Standard is soon to enjoy the very protection we're talking about. Is it pure coincidence that the airspace suddenly can be established just after NATS gets the contract to supply air traffic services at the unit? Or did the unit not bother trying to get the airspace in the past?

[Standard Noise]

BRS has been trying to get the airspace for years, but you know what it's like, it takes years to sort it out. It's only now that NATS wants to reorganise the west end of the country and recognise that BRS is a busy airport, that the airspace is coming in.

As for the "airspace can suddenly be established", you must be mad if you think any new airspace can 'suddenly' come into being at the drop of a hat or signing of a contract. No one told me my employer had changed last week!?:confused:

Cheddar TMA - bit of a cheesy name isn't it?:p

[Spitoon]

Sorry Standard, the "suddenly" was a bit tounge in cheek...but it's all relative, as you say BRS has been trying to get the airspace for years.

How 'bout Weston-super-mare TMA then? But I bet you it becomes Cardiff TMA!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<HD, Thank you for your kind concern. I trust that when you worked traffic outside CAS at LL it was when you were doing Thames! And at least at TK you couldn't *see* all the worrying things!>>

Never did Thames, Thank God. It was whilst doing Special VFR, plus I saw a couple of R/T failures go outside..very scary. At TK we couldn't "see" anything. We damn well knew about them but a training strip would never get CAS - put 50 years on me working there!