lame moral at qantas

[sys 4]

Well i've been with QF now 5 yrs as a LAME and i'm not to impressed,Dixon rattles of about tightening our belts,wage freezes,redundency, out sourcing(constant threat to engineers in Sydney),blah,blah,blah.while giving himself and the board a new pay rise of 66% so as to attract the right type of person to the board ie;james packer aka i blow $500m on a sh*tty tele co.While all the while i've been on 50k per yr certifying 747's and getting a whopping 6% total over the last 4 yrs.It's now coming to a point that QF engineers are getting similar pay to semi skilled workers in Sydney(fast approahing with the current trend of pay inreases),and now we are hearing that Oldmeadow has put 0% on the table for the next 3 yrs,with a o/t bank,transmission of business,part timer numbers increased,no loading while on training,and it goes on and on.Moral is nearly at it's lowest point from when i arrived and the nexted stage is people begining to leave.I have began to look at other opportunities as have many of my peers

[matca]

Pass-A-Frozo,

Care to comment;

66% rise in 1 year as opposed to 6% over 4 years?

This is the type of person you are trusting to treat you right?

No need for unions or associations when you are unable to 'vote' yourself a rise?

Seeya,

[Nomorecrap]

Is it a case of they want you to leave so they can then publically justify getting their maintainence done in India or China?

[Mr.Buzzy]

The sad thing is that Dicko listens to the individual squeaky hinges.
Make enough noise and you may find yourself promoted or visiting an overseas contractor for a 3 week jolly with your family. Keep your mouth shut and be worked over with the best of them!

bbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzbbbb

[the lost one]

re above comment

how very true

[planemad2]

I take it you are worried about the morale, not the morals. ;)

[numbskull]

Its getting pretty bad!!

The people who care and have a go are slowly being worn down by beauracracy and management ineptitude.

If we get stitched up for another 3% and agree to any Qantas log of claims, I'll be there in spirit only.

[Point0Five]

Matca actually raises quite a valid point, it sounds like Qantas is completely disrepecting your worth and skills. For example, a first year Aircraft Technician Corporal in the RAAF (who almost definitely isn't qualified as a LAME) earns more than 50k a year; and that doesn't include housing subsidies, medical or superannuation. Sounds like, as PAF would advocate, it's time to find a better job and employer.

No need for a union, vote with your feet and go somewhere that you are appreciated.

[HotDog]

sys4, I started my career in aviation with Qantas as a LAME and the most important book for me apart from the maintenance manual, was an English dictionary; English not being my mother tounge. It distresses me to see posts from LAMEs (not just you) with such poor skills in spelling, syntax and punctuation. It does put us in a bad light.

[Trashed Aviator]

Come to Emirates you can get about 50k plus a year tax free and a free house.................................

[Mr Qantas]

Its about time you whingers started to get a grip on reality. Most lames get over 100k per anum well above most workers. We compete in a global market and if we getting overpaid then there needs to be some sort of adjustment in the form of wage restrictons or new workpractices. We may be able to get a 3% wage rise if we just change the way we work by allowing flexible rostering or overtime banking and stop demanding shift pens when we get trained. After all you get a payrise when you finish a course so I dont see what the problem is. Over all you may see a few of the vocal minority expesing there opinion on here but thats just a minority. Most staff are happy to be in a job in these troubled times and Qf have ofered long term employment for many years to thousands of Aussies.:ok:

[Sunfish]

Translation: Mr. Qantas is on an executive pay scale and his salary is inversely proportional to LAME's pay scales.

[oil additive]

Mr Hotdog,

I agree with your comments entirely. I have some first hand experience with apprentices and their literacy skills in most cases are atrocious!! :( .

GA apprentices seem to be the worst because they do not have to undergo the extensive interview processes that the airlines and the aerospace industry (BAE, etc) maintain. I'm hoping that "Aviation English" will soon be part of the National Aeroskills Curriculum and we can fix the problem before they start signing off maintenance releases.

While I will never admit to being an English Proffessor, I too feel embarrassed when I see such poor spelling from Engineers on these threads and on maintenance documentation. Come on guys, lift your game and let these fly boys have some confidence and respect for our profession.:ok:

[sport]

While I will never admit to being an English Proffessor

You are definitely not an English Professor so stop being so high and mighty.

[oil additive]

sport

I wasn't trying to be high and mighty, I was just stating some facts, firstly that I wasn't an English Professor (thank you for the correction, I told you so):O and secondly that the newest members to our ranks need some assistance to improve their english.

[numbskull]

I know there must be an Macquarie Dictionary forum for all you anal retentive spellers that post on pprune. Can't you post your spelling bee corrections there??

However this thread is about LAME morale. Mr Qantas I know you are one of my supervisers but I don't know which one. He is not an executive, just a middle ranking superviser who does very little other than order people about and really wouldn't have a clue about the morale on the shop floor.

Mr Qantas most LAMES don't earn over $100K. I'm sure though that the ones you talk to do. We do earn more than most workers but not much more than your average plumber. Im sure a plumber who worked 24/7 would get something akin to our wage.

I might have to jump on the forklift to retrieve my parts, into the tug to tow the aircraft to/from the terminal, drive the cherry picker for a rudder insp or the crane for an engine change.

That's when I'm not certifing for the fix on your hyd/pneumatic/air cond system, crawling in the bilge of the cargo amongst all sorts of accumulated gunge or troubleshooting the fluctuating parameters of your engine . I might be certifying for an aileron rig duplicate insp or changing a cockpit window amongst many other things. I regularly supervise and certify for up to 8 people doing the same things.

I have worked 13 of the last 20 Christmases and I did not earn over $100k last financial year.

The 3 % is an insult to my ability.Bring on the redundancies so fair dinkum people can get some reward for their hard work or a bit of dead wood can be trimmed. With a bit of luck Mr Qantas might go as well!!

[Moment of Clarity]

And so it seems we've all had our little whinge, and the unofficial O/T bans have gone by the wayside. Three misguided domestic ports are continuing the fight, the rest have seen the truth of the situation, and are reaping the benefits of bans in other ports ( a friend did 46 hours hours O/T last pay!)

Time to move on. The members have spoken, LAME's have spoken.

If you dont like the pay and conditions on offer, you have free will to move on. Whilst you will be soarly missed, we shall endeavour to carry on.

Majority of LAME's are content with whats on offer. If you are not, I hear Air NZ are after the high skilled workers you claim to be. See what your remuneration is there.

I'm sure Clarity will prevail.

[Point0Five]

All power to the aptly named "Moment of Clarity"!

Bring on the redundancies so fair dinkum people can get some reward for their hard work or a bit of dead wood can be trimmed. With a bit of luck Mr Qantas might go as well!!

In my experience redundancies only offer generous remuneration to those who don't really deserve it... I wouldn't place too much stock in it improving your workforce or bargaining position. It is certainly naive to believe that such an activity will improve your lot in life.

At the risk of sounding like a prick:

That's when I'm not certifing for the fix on your hyd/pneumatic/air cond system, crawling in the bilge of the cargo amongst all sorts of accumulated gunge or troubleshooting the fluctuating parameters of your engine . I might be certifying for an aileron rig duplicate insp or changing a cockpit window amongst many other things. I regularly supervise and certify for up to 8 people doing the same things.

... isn't that your job?

[the lost one]

it might be our job-but I like would more money for it -because of the task's we perform

to mr qantas - most lame's 85% are not on 100k per year -just ask a bris heavy lame lv3 what he is on.

[sys 4]

MR QANTAS maybe you should leave your ivory tower and come down on the floor and have a look at what real work is

[matca]

Ahhh, Mr Qantas it's good to see you back, I've missed you!

The tendancy with redundancies is the smarter fellas tend to move on? Which means Mr Qantas might be around for a while yet!:\

Lamies, regardless of your spelling and grammer, you are working in a highly skilled and specialised area and deserve the respect associated.

3% per year is a garbage out-come when inflation is eating at your money at around the same rate. It shows no respect when compared to the corporate excess that is being shown from most companies these days.:ok:

[numbskull]

point-o-five you're right, you do sound like a prick.

I have no problems with any of my job functions. It is actually the source of my job satisfaction to be able to effectively carry out so many different tasks and provide a serviceable aircraft on time.

What I do object to is to be offered less than I am worth and receive some smartass reply from someone who sits on his arse for hours on end in an airconditioned environment pushing buttons and twiddling knobs. You would have no idea what it feels like to to spend a 12 hr night shift covered in ****/grease/fuel/hyd fluid/sweat for the last 20 years.

I fully expect a tirade of abuse from aggreived pilots saying how stressful your job is and how many lives are at stake in your highly important jobs.

Just remember, I'll work on many more planes in 12 hrs than you will fly and any one of my stuffups can have just as devastating consequences.

wrong grease on a brake???What possible harm can that do???every other grease point on the gear is the same!!!

Did I put the o-rings on that oil system chip detector that I replaced at 0430 last night??? I think I did???

Were those screws that I used to replace that cockpit window the correct length and torqued properly?????

Keep your seatbelt fastened. You may be flying into turbulence.

[Ron & Edna Johns]

Whoa, steady numbskull,

I'm a pilot and I'm on your side. As are virtually all my colleagues.

Let's not play into the hands of those who have an interest in dividing the various workgroups, pitting them against one another. They benefit from that.

Whilst it might be a dream to have one association representing ALL personnel working for airlines in Australia, we can at least try and support one another wherever possible, wherever legal.....

:ok:

[Moment of Clarity]

It now appears that the OFFICIAL O/T bans have stalled as well. QF management have undertaken to have another look at the ALAEA's log of claims, and the ALAEA has undertaken to have another look at QANTAS' EBA wishlist.

The O/T bans ( if they ever come in) will not include customer aircraft, so any International Line station will, by default, not be taking part in the bans. Those Line stations with merged lunchrooms will also not be taking part in the bans for the same reason.

And so it continues. SYD, MEL and BNE domestic Line stations will continue to make themselves unavailable for extra duties, with support now from Heavy Maintenance and hopefully Base Maintenance.

What can we possibly hope to achieve with less than full bans from all departments. It's great having a union that takes QF's contract obligations into account before launching industrial action.

[the lost one]

the only way to bring this issue to head is

1. ban all o/t in support of customer aircraft --STARTING WITH THE -RAAF BBJ-
2.TELL THE SCABS FROM BASE AND INTERNATIONAL AT SYDNEY TO COME ON BOARD -OR THEY CAN F..KOFF- BECAUSE WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND.
3. THE SCABS AT SYD INTERNATIONAL NOT TO DO DOMESTIC RELEIF WORK.

domestic might be getting screwed with the preflt issue at the moment BUT YOUR TIME WILL COME

IF YOU DON'T SUPPORT DOMESTIC LAME'S- WE WILL REMEMBER WHEN YOU GUY'S ARE BEING SCREWED BY THE COMPANY- STARTING WITH THE PROPOSED MERGER OF BASE AND INTERNATIONAL AT SYD- WHEN YOU BLOKE'S WANT SUPPORT - YOU CAN STICK THAT UP YOUR ASS.

[matca]

Lost One,

Check your Private Messages :ok:

[tommytill]

So, based on the past comments, now isn't a great time to be looking outside the sheltered life of the Raaf for Qantas work?!
:ugh:

[the lost one]

matca chk your msg's

tlo

[Ultralights]

during my final yr at QF, morale was already what i thought to be an all time low! in that environment, work output was at approx 25% of what a normal happy contented employee might be!

i left after 11 yrs, because having NO pay rise in over 6 yrs is not much fun!, and the final yr, being told, under the new pay scale, you will need to take a pay cut by starting again at the bottom! ( because of my dual trades, it put me into a pay scale that they didnt consider during the changeover,) so the only solution, get back on the bottom, after 11 yrs, and work another 10 yrs to get back to where you started!

i feel i am in the same boat, we all love our jobs, there is tremendous satisfation in seeing your work come to fruition, after countless hrs covered in grease and god knows what junk that accumulates in dog boxes and the lower WL lines in cargo. not only the satisfation in creating parts from bare materials and woring them into servicable aircraft components! a feeling many other people will never have!

but sadly, its the Company, not the job that forced me out!

How do you flight crew people feel knowing the company is forcing out many who actually take great pride in their work and do Quality work, so that they can bring in cheap labour, lower skill levels, and lower pride in their work.


as for the grammer police! Bill gates, is dyslexic! never judge anyones skill in their chosen field by they way they punch the keys on a computer keyboard!

Mr Qantas highlights the companies problems perfectly, the managment/ suporvisories view their "lower" staff with contempt, and have no real connection with what is actually going on with their staff, let alone the work environment they have to put up with!
as long as this Us and them mentality between the doers and the desk pushers exists, and there is an obvious massive divide, as demonstrated by Mr QF!, then the company will continue to suffer, along with morale, and safety, and eventually job security! for ALL staff.

for a company to suceed, ALL levels of staff have to unite as ONE! and help each other to achieve a common goal!

[Point0Five]

numbskull

you do sound like a prick

I hope that I have one:) No offence intended.

However I do question this:

less than I am worth

How do you define this? I'm not a pilot and I respect what you do. But his doesn't change the fact that complaining on an anonymous forum doesn't fix your problem.

A professional maintainer wouldn't make such veiled threats against their customers. Dude, power to you for being good at your job. If you hate Qantas, get work elsewhere! I work in maintenance, there isn't a huge amount of money in it but it is good honest work. If I wanted to be rich, I'd be a merchant banker. The day I hate my employment; I'll re-skill into a more money rich enviornment (and pay for it myself)... seriously, get over yourself and accept that the world isn't there to look after you!:cool:

And please, I'd love to hear from LAMEs that have worked for QANTAS for five years and are only on 50k! Bring it on....

[Reverseflowkeroburna]

Sorry to disappoint Numbskull .........no tirade of abuse from me either! More like respect & heartfelt sympathy for you LAME guys & gals (and your families) as I hear of what sounds like more of Dicko's "Divide & Conquer" tactic being applied to another proud & skilled professional workforce.

ALL levels of staff have to unite as ONE! and help each other to achieve a common goal!

Agreed........and so all maintenance bases should unite! Just as the pilot bodies need to. As for all the aviation related disciplines under the one banner..........sounds great in theory...........could the TWU be the answer?????

Anyways Numbskull , my rant's over, I'm off to sit on my ass!

My apologeees to the Grammer Polease for my indeskreshins......."I no knot wot I do, I are just a dum pielot!" :8

[Sunfish]

"Less than I am worth"

A very good point. I will not refer to "maslows hierarchy of needs". which is baseless, but instead suggest that what is needed is "recognition".

You can pay people next to nothing if you are prepared to recognise the contribution they make to the success of your organisation, and they will still be satisfied provided they can keep the wolf from the door at home.

Money is not a positive reinforcement for most people. You don't perform any better if you get more, but you may perform worse if you get less.

"Recognition" - being treated as an important member of the human race, is one of the greatest drivers of performance.

It would appear that there is a world wide attack on the recognition of pilots LAME's and Cabin crew. QF would appear no different.

The message is simple. Pilots are glorified bus drivers, LAME's are jacked up car mechanics and CC are well....

The sad part about this is that a lot of passengers are going to lose their lives before people realise that if you apply russian, or third world, airline standards (apologies to Aeroflot) of behaviour to cabin crew, Pilots and LAME's, then you are going to get third world safety records.

To put it another way the importance of Pilots, Cabin crew and LAME's will get "recognition" one day, but it will not be pleasant . QF, Ryanaire, etc will only know they have cut too much when there is the proverbial smoking hole in the ground, but they don't seem to care about this.

Furthermore, it takes about ten years of constant cost cutting in a large organisation, in my opinion, before the damage even appears and a further ten years for it to be totally visible. It will then take another twenty years to put right.

[sys 4]

Point0Five as i pointed out at the begining of the forum i am a Lame on 50k base as a lvl 3 which has only received 6% over 4 yrs

[Redstone]

Sunfish, couldn't agree with you more! I don't want the Victoria Cross but a little recognition, even acknowledgement would be nice some times. Even from immediate management/supervisors as well. As I see it at the moment, the only recognition and "rewards" are being dubiously passed out to LAMEs for time spent off the job,NOT fixing aeroplanes. This is the perception of many guys on the hangar floor and it makes you think "there's no use in flogging a dead horse, my efforts are slipping through to the keeper!"

I think most people are working for the rest of their crew/team members rather than the company at the moment. That seems to be the only arena where your contribution is valued and appreciated.

[numbskull]

Sunfish, I agree with your post completely!!!

I think Qantas is deliberately trying to antagonise its staff into leaving so that it can employ new staff at cheaper rates. It is happening to pilots, LAMES and cabin crew. There are no shortage of people willing to take these jobs and will even accept less than the going rate to secure a foot in the door.

Why else would they treat their own staff so poorly!!

I just hope the people they recruit for these tasks are up to the job. Generally speaking, if you pay a lower remuneration you are going to get a lower quality candidate.

Point o five I was not making any veiled threats in my previous post. No LAME would ever consider such a thing!! I was merely trying to emphasise the importance of the job we do and that many mundane tasks done incorrectly can have devastating consequences.

My manager has stated that there we have too many LAMES in our area and future recruiting will be predominately AME's. Career advancement in the form of licence training will be very hard to come by even if we do get 777's and 380's(most of the work will probably be carried out in Singapore)

We already do more work with less ground time. I'm not looking forward to certifying A/C with less experienced people under me as well.

Qantas has grown to be a very large airline and they are cutting costs in so many areas now that it is simply a matter of time before a more serious accident occurs. I'm sure though that G.D. and the board of directors will have the backside covered.
The ATSB will do their crash investigation and find some poor shmuck LAME who forgot to do something at 0400 after already being at work for 10 hrs. Either that or blame pilot error.

Well, as G.D. says "if you don't like it leave!!" I will,he's just going to have to come up wth a redundancy package first.

[sys 4]

the problem with there moaning about there being to many LAME's and that they want more AME's is that they will not be able to get them at the rates their offering.Entry level for an AME is about 34k base.For example over in the fitting shop they are so short staffed with machinest's(has been for the last 5yrs-there rate of pay is about 32k base) that there getting Lame's to do this like flap peening

[INCOGNIT0]

To be Honest how can the numbers and pays be justified at Q when really all the LAME in OZ today is a glorified AME,what difference is a LAME to AME....nothing in Q's eyes except a signatory. AME's do inspections,troubleshooting,functions etc where in most of the world only LAME's exercise these skills ,I've seen all white shirt crews in heavy on the tools when a crew of AME's can do EXACTLY the same job with the LH rubber stamping from his office.Until the LAME's stand UNITED keeping the AME's as MECHANICS and the LAME's utilising their skills and knowledge by LAME only inspections,troubleshooting,functions etc. then the Q LAME will have NO power for bargaining and still be deemed just an over paid mechanic.

[sys 4]

INCOGNIT0 where do you prepose that AME's get their SOE from. This is a natural career path for AME's .The difference between a Lame and an Ame is an intense 3 mth type coarse ,SOE and yrs of experience.What do you prupose AME's do at work.This is perhaps why we have a great saftey record in Australia.Incognito do you know what LAME'S AND AME'S do at work and the structure of the work place,because it sounds like you are from an office with no idea.

[Sunfish]

Incognito, it can and will be justified after an basic technical fault causes the death of 300+ passengers.

To put it another way, Numbskull's comment about the length and torque of windscreen bolts was very apt.

To put it yet another way, the legislation, regulations and rules are there for a reason.

One of those rules requires certain licenced people to sign off certain things.

[The masked goatrider]

As for all the aviation related disciplines under the one banner..........sounds great in theory...........could the TWU be the answer?????

No they couldn't. The TWU have allowed mass introduction of part time and casual workers for classifications under their guidance. The TWU promote a culture of union officials who work for the union not union reps who speak for the workers. The TWU have been first on most occasions to sign off on crap EBA deals. The airline loves them.

1. ban all o/t in support of customer aircraft --STARTING WITH THE -RAAF BBJ-

2.TELL THE SCABS FROM BASE AND INTERNATIONAL AT SYDNEY TO COME ON BOARD -OR THEY CAN F..KOFF- BECAUSE WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND.
3. THE SCABS AT SYD INTERNATIONAL NOT TO DO DOMESTIC RELEIF WORK.

IF YOU DON'T SUPPORT DOMESTIC LAME'S- WE WILL REMEMBER WHEN YOU GUY'S ARE BEING SCREWED BY THE COMPANY- STARTING WITH THE PROPOSED MERGER OF BASE AND INTERNATIONAL AT SYD- WHEN YOU BLOKE'S WANT SUPPORT - YOU CAN STICK THAT UP YOUR ASS.





Just remember the scabs who are screwing us in these sections will get looked after by the company. If you want to pay them back by telling them to jam it, you will only hurt the 70% of SIT and Base LAME's that do support us. The problem in these sections is the quality of their union leaders and their pi$$ weak mentality. They all get given cosy little office jobs to get them off shiftwork and are encouraging the silence that leaves the rest of them in the dark. Don't divide the boys further, it's what they want.

On a more somber note I was saddened to hear of the illness that has left the General Manager of Line Maintenance ops stuck in a hospital bed for a number of days. Get well soon Bruce from your friends in Melbourne.

[takeonme]

As a second year AME apprentice with this mob, we've been told all sorts of stories by everyone.

One story is that we are on $60K once we finish our time, and $95K as a first year LAME. Is this remotely true? Whats the real deal??

Should we be looking forward to a long and satisfying career with this company?

[Orville]

I too am concerned with the health of BD, as much as this is a business and we are on separate sides during an EBA, no one should be subjected to the physical suffering associated with stress.

Wishing you a speedy recovery and looking forward to welcoming you back into the fight.

[numbskull]

I really feel for all the apprentices currently at QF. No one knows where all this is going to end up least of all QF management.

I have a feeling that they are more likely to keep you guys when you finish your apprenticeship you will be cheaper than LAMES to employ.

However I don't want to give false expectations because they have sacked whole intakes in the past on more than 1 occassion.

Training is going to be very hard to come by as they want to increase the percentage of AMEs to LAMES.

I don't know what a 1st year AME would get(probably around 35K before shift penalties) but a single licence LAME would get around 52k base which would be a max 70k if you worked a 24/7 shift.

As for having a long and satisfying career......???? Pay and conditions are continually being eroded for all airline staff.(the same is happening to pilots and flight attendants).

My only advice is to work hard and gain as many skills and accreditations as QF can give you. Keep your options open.

[the lost one]

a couple of points i would like to bring up
1. to mr cognito the rule's for lame's are controlled by casa .
this country won't allow you to have one lame certifying for 15 ame's -although avalon heavy maint appears to be an exception.
if you would like to be a career ame then go for it.
2. to apprentice's that think they are walking into a 100k a year job. you better get your head checked.

from what i know some of you would be lucky to be kept on as ame's .
it is not a job for life anymore -the few that stay on will do their basic's then pay for a type course.the company will not pay you for it as they want control of training .
you might be offered a position in bne heavy on the poor work conditions up there were as a ame you will earn 40k to 50k a year if your lucky. and if you are lucky enough to grab a licence you will earn 50k to 65k per year as level 3 lame going nowhere real fast.
some others might be lucky to get to domestic on permanant nightshift as an ame ,there they can do/pay for a type course and the company might or might not pay you for it. as an ame there you might earn 50-60k per year because of the shift loading. as a level 3 entry lame you might earn 70-75k not a lot of money for some one trying to live in sydney with a family maybe.

so my advice to apprentice's comming out of there time,- pay for as many type course's as possible and leave and go work for virginblue/jet care - there they pay you 98k per year to hold one type or work oversea's as contractor or leave the industry while your still young enough thank your self lucky while your still young.
chose a new carreer maybe --how about merchant banking-they make about 100k per year if that's what you want.

[Apophis]

rule's for lame's are controlled by casa .
this country won't allow you to have one lame certifying for 15 ame's -although avalon heavy maint appears to be an exception.

it does not appear that this goes on it is a fact it does as for rules controlled by casa give me a break QF just does what they like at avalon sorry to say but this has become common place at avalon.

[the lost one]

re above comment

i was being sarcastic- we all know what happen's at avalon.

[Kiwiconehead]

go work for virginblue/jet care - there they pay you 98k per year to hold one type

Sounds good doesn't it, until you work out that it includes shift penalties and a rostered overtime component. In real base rate terms it's no more than QF. (The Jetstar guys had a good look at it but soon figured out it wasn't all roses).

I've tried to figure out the QF rates several times but the EBAs are such a dog's breakfast it's impossible to figure out what's going on. Shift penalties in one document, pay rates in another, how you qualify for each grade in yet another.

My base rate in a QF regional is $62k for EIR, Mech guy's base is $53k.

The way you make money in aviation is shiftwork, guys in Eastern run around the 42% average penalty mark so Avionics guys are on $88k and Mech on about $74k, both plus O/T which can be as little or as much as you want. Southern guys are averaging about 38% penalties in Melbourne and 48% in Mildura (4on 4off perm niteshift there).

Bottom line is you work shiftwork you get the cash, you work heavy you get a life, you don't get both in this game.

[INCOGNIT0]

Don't get me wrong,I don't condone 1 LAME crews but I can see this is where Q is heading.My point being the Q LAME has to regain their power and rights and justify high earnings to their employer,most Euro LAME's earn far more remuneration and respect than their counterparts in OZ because AME's are kept as mechanics, not let loose with inspection/functional cards with little or no knowledge on type.It is far safer and cheaper to have a LAME do the inspections etc. over an inexperienced AME immigrant in a Forstaff boiler suit and your right,we all know what's happening in AVV but nothing is being done about it ,seems standards have been allowed to slip over the years.

[Apophis]

i agree with the above one has to wonder what the hell casa does re avalon to date it would seem nothing if you can,t read a job card how the hell can you sign for it but then we have a lame sign the job off without even looking at the finished product ?

[Son of Brake Boy]

A few facts people may or may not be aware of.

Like it or not QANTAS runs CASA, not the other way around. 'QANTAS have the political support and the money to fight anything we would object to in their procedures'.

QANTAS does not invest in Australia unless its in their best interest. With around 50% of ther AVV workforce on 2 year working VISA's, QF can reduce training in both apprentices and LAME's.

On the AVV issue, constant threats of sending work overseas and shutting down Avalon are purely scare tactics. As I said, they dont keep it running out of the kindness in their hearts.

The lack of training justifies QF arguement of less Licenced Engineer involvement in maintenance, crying poor and saying 'We just cant seem to get skilled labor'. Pretty realistic arguement when you dont train.

Licenced Engineers have a large target painted on them at the moment. We cost money due to the professional nature of our work, our job function of finding defects (and costing money to fix them), and 24/7 shift work required to keep our fleet in service.

On that a Grade 3 LAME at QF receives just over $50,000 pa base rate. Not much pay for all that responsibility. I know of Cleaners and Baggage staff who earn more than Heavy Maintenance LAME's including penalties etc.

Wonder why morale is so low.

Maintain the Rage.

[the lost one]

lets get things in perspective a qf lv3 lame at domestic on permanent night shift is on 70 k per year including shift penalites with no overtime signing for one type .
a jetcare/virgin blue lame is on 94k- to 98k with shift penalites no overtime,signing for one type, now i hold a 738 and i'd like to see that type of money.

[Point0Five]

I can only assume that pay rates for LAMEs within QANTAS are determined via collective bargaining; therefore it is reasonable to assume that they are generally a matter of public knowledge. What is a LAME worth to QANTAS? There seems to be some disparity within this posts on this topic.


Apologies, but I'm just genuinely curious.

cheers

[Orville]

rate per week
level effective first pay
period on or after
1 January 2004

1 $844.50
2 $934.80
3 $965.00
4 $1037.40
5 $1,109.90
6 $1,182.20
7 $1,254.40
8 $1,326.90
9 $1,399.40
10 $1,471.50
11 $1,544.20
12 $1,616.80
13 $1,689.40 (1 July 2004)
Levels based on 4 years experience or one level for each full dual category held. (only for types operated by Qantas)

So as you can see to qualify for a reasonable salary you have to have achieved many licenses or years of experience, unfortunately there are many engineers who have only one or two ratings. Those that have been around for many years with a few type ratings are the ones the company is trying to piss off. They prefer the one legged engineer who doesn't cost much.

[the lost one]

i agree with the above --the mulit licensed high level lame's at line maintenance are the reason's why the company thinks lame's are so expensive- but what they fail to understand is their grading system is all ready taking effect. most lame's ,young guy's comming through will only gain one to two type rating's in the future -then they will only go up on service point's it will be a long and slow process.
lv4 and lv5 will make up the majority of lame's at qf in the future -with snr lame's and acting sr lame's holding every type and remaining at top.

regards
tlo

[Son of Brake Boy]

Financial remuneration for a days work may be one contributing factor to the lack of morale we're seeing at the moment, but its not the only issue getting LAME's offside.

Lack of training generally speaking for many is of concern. Dont worry about your type courses and such. Try basic computer training. The computer systems in place are now a integral part to the way Engineers carry out their daily duties. Have you ever been trained how to use your internal email? Not so bad for the younger guys, but with an average LAME age of around 50, there are many frustrated individuals out there.

Lack of manpower. Try getting leave these days. We all get the letters 'You have over 500 hours annual leave' but try taking some. 'Sorry we dont have the licence coverage/manpower'.

Constant threats to jobs and aviation safety standards. We have all been bought up to understand the difference between maintenance on a car and an aircraft. Unfortunately our management havent had the same oppurtunity. 'You just park the aircraft overnight and in the morning you just turn the key and she starts!'. Frustration has set in with the numerous attacks on job security and tighter schedules forcing LAME's ,at times, to cut corners.

Finally the last EBA offer to QF LAME's was basically a slap in the face. Dont worry about the money. There was not one item in that offer that was even considerable, and showed the true contempt management holds for its workers.

Maintain the rage.

[Pappa Smurf]

What is a good wage

A standard monday to friday 40 hour week in any job isnt that good in the wallet department.

Australia is short of tradesmen etc at the moment and especially in the mining industries.They can make well over 100 grand a year,but in the end their base is still only in the 50-60 grand mark.

The rest is made up of working 2 weeks straight(sometimes more--up to 6 weeks) doing 12 hour shift work out in the bush in the dust and heat.Then old Johnny takes half.

Pay more overseas----expensive countries yes--dont think i would want 50g base living in switzland,but working for garuda i would be laughing.

Then again Sydney not to cheap.I know an over 21 apprentice AME who loves it but after paying $280 a week for a house,cant really lash out on things--------but then again ,who really can what ever job you have.

Not sure but i think consumer price index hasnt risen much in the last few years and that tends to keep pay increases down.

I look through the daily job adds and im astounded at some wages even in the IT game.No where near where i thought they were so im quite happy to stay where i am----im not with an airline though.

For the record------my base is 56g after 28 years service

[rammel]

I completed my apprenticeship in the early 90's and over 90% of our year was told that we were surplus to requirements. Back then we were told we could apply for jobs within the company and miraculously job were found on the ramp, in res and at catering for those that wanted to stay in the company.

Maybe about 15-20 people in that year found jobs in other areas and only 2 or 3 of them have found their way back to enginnering. I liked working in Engineering but fortunatly for me I found the grass greener outside E&M.

I still work in an area where my skills can play a very minor role but I would most likely without OT still earn more than most AME's at the base or in the workshops.

So I guess I am saying that there are skilled people out there as there was about 80-90 people in my year, but no one is going to come back to QF to work for peanuts.

As Son Of Brake Boy Says:

Maintain the rage

Also for the record I am in a position that is no where near as hard as a 4 year apprenticeship, it was probably 6 weeks training and the salary is about 50k plus approx 28-30% shift penalties.

[Point0Five]

Given the changing face of employer/employee relationships in Australia (i.e. the things that young people expect, and to be honest demand from an employer) is part of the problem the heavily regulated nature of being a LAME. I'm not talking about deskilling the industry, but does a young up and comer need to demonstrate detailed knowledge of an aircraft and systems that they will never work on?

The average LAME age clearly shows the degree of intrest that the present and future generations have in the industy.

[Son of Brake Boy]

Point0Five

I dont believe the average LAME age represents the interest that present and future generations have in the industry. I believe the average age is reflective of industry's support of the next generation of AME's.

Deskilling isnt what we're talking about, I do agree with you there. Getting maximum return for minimum pay is the objective, particular in the larger companies who can afford it more so than small business. In QANTAS Sydney Heavy Maintenance, I have worked with some of the most skilled and experienced AME I've ever come across. QANTAS management refuses to train them to become Licenced as they will then recieve higher pay.

Supply and demand is definately a driving force in the current level of training carried out. The less LAME's QF have, the better their arguement for using less skilled labor. Ideally for the safety and convenience of travelling public, a company would ensure the highest level of skilled labor maintaining their aircraft....but who ever said this was about the travelling public.

[the lost one]

the company went through the 80's and early 90's not training and paying lame's peanut's,the smart one's left and went to singapore,mas etc etc --what did the company do --hey they went oversea's and recruited-so much for developing home grown talent --will just sack apprentice's comming through their time.

the company has a track history of industrial action against its maintenance staff

[Pappa Smurf]

Doing an apprenticeship with a company doesnt mean you will get a job----with that company.

Conditions prevail---may not need many if any at all when completed.
Also apprentices are looked at in more ways than what they can do.

Theres attitude,number of days off work etc.

Son had 1 day off in 3 years due to a night on the rocket fuel.

He says others have heaps of days off,so by rights he should be one up on them,but who knows in the end.

A lot of jobs are similar to apprenticeships these days .Many advertise 6 months permanent casual with chances of full time employment.If they are d/heads,lazy,useless etc it saves the crap of unfair dismissal.
More use labour hire agencies these days for similar reasons.If ya ok then you get onto the company payroll.

We never get enough money what ever the job.
Why become a AME or LAME--in most cases because your a plane freak and want to work on them like a petrol head will become a motor mechanic.
I suppose these days your mad not to get a trade behind you,but if your after big bucks ,dont mind where you go,dont like studying etc,and just want to be a normal bonehead like me then a 20 year old can get 80--130g a year.Goodbye friends ,night clubs etc----then drink to much ,gamble ,go on shagging holidays to Bangkock etc and still end up with F/all.
And yes--who ever you work for wants to screw ya or the grass is greaner in the other paddock.

The perfect job---what you want to do ,a place you want to live,and a good salary.

Most opt for the first 2 choices then hope the moneys good enough.Getting screwed in most cases is an industrial hazard.

[Propstop]

I have been a LAME for a long time. I did a 5 year apprenticeship in TAA, but due to being screwed over by the ALAEA, I left Oz.
I have worked around the world and have got considerably more pay than a QF LAME. That has been working on commuter size A/C. I am currently (with allowances) getting $120000.oo approx in my hand as an expat. I also hold an Oz licence Airframe, Engine, Electrical & Instrument. In Oz half of that will be my gross, then there is tax!! Unfortunately for the responsibility an Australian LAME has, they are underpaid. As for status and recognition of a job well done. 0.0!!!
I am coming back to Oz as I have resigned from where I have worked for the last 4 years, but as I am still sane, I would never consider working for QF. They have devalued the skill, training, professionalism, and very hard won experience which in the past has always allowed us to hold our heads high. These days when you get a guy in to tile your bathroom, he charges more per hour than you earn in four.
The question is now being asked; why are people now not taking up a skilled trade?? It is plainly obvious and will not get any better. All we are going to end up with here are the type of people I have worked with overseas for the last X number of years. They are minimally trained, no concept of the safety issues involved, if in fact they even care, and will work for low wages. All the responsibility is on the LAME.
End of rant!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Chris Higgins]

Ironically, the best engineer I ever met could barely spell his own name. I think it goes with the profession....maybe they teach you how nott two spel ass pard of the liceenssing?!

[Ultralights]

and as for you spelling police!!!!!! a little lesson on the human mind and language understanding for you!!

http://home.exetel.com.au/pamuva/Other%20stuff/webstuff/spellingpolice.jpg

[HotDog]

Oh well, if you have so little respect for your language, we might as well all speak Esperanto.:sad:

[Chris Higgins]

Ultralights! That was so cool!

[Ultralights]

back on topic, well sort of, I dont belive LAMES would cut corners in any instance in the name of saving money, but technical services, hmmm well, they are the ones who come up with and approve non standard, and repairs not found within boeing manuals!

i personally have refused to sign for work done in response to an EA raised by tech services!, and that was 5 yrs ago! and i dont dare to think what stuff gets approved these days!

[Point0Five]

So where are we heading with all of this?

[numbskull]

It appears that negotiations with QF on the EBA have not gone well today.The company has been advised that protected action has been authorised but notice now needs to be served formally.

We shall soon see where our union leaders take us from here.

[matca]

Aged Care Nurses get 12% over two years,

Let's hope Lamies who look after aged Boeings get at least that!

Good luck fellas.

Regards.

[lineupandwait]

The unfortunate future:

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/803353/M/

Even JAL and ANA use them.

[Mr Chairman]

Hi All,
Qantas managment has being very successful over the last few years with keeping wages down and once again they have being playing hard ball. Our 3% which we were all expecting as a minimum appears to be off the table with QF saying that nothing is guaranteed.
However I have managed to get a pay increase every year in proportion to inflation by a very simple method. And what is this method, well just go into work every day and do absolutely nothing. That right, if they are not going to pay you for your labour then don't provide that labour. Then the $45k that they pay you every year will be for nothing. There are other advantages to this method, less stress, less chance of injury, less chance of being involved in a cock up(no kanagroo court) and more time to spend with the family as you will be less tired.
So don't forget, no money=no work and you will feel a lot more satisfied after your day at the office.

[Ultralights]

Mr Chairman, that was my exact attitude since being told by a manger that my 10 yrs service meant nothing and i would have to go back to the bottom of the new scale!

loved it! not only that, it will increase your chances of being on top of the list for redundancy when they come around!

nothing like appearing at the base for $52K, relaxing all day, and getting a big payout when you want to leave! :ok:

[numbskull]

guys that attitude sucks!!! Putting in less than your fair share of work is just bludging on your workmates and forcing others to do more!!!

Your chance to stand up to the company has come with the ALAEA issuing an official OT ban from the first shift Monday the 4th April.

No overtime will be worked by any Qantas LAMES at any port until further notice except

1 customer A/C servicing and maint.

2 retrieval of unserviceable aircraft from outstations

The ALAEA will also allow overtime to be worked by engineers who travel to unmanned ports,thus ensuring adequate maintenance is carried out at these ports. Check out www.alaea.asn.au. You will need to login and check out member notices(this area for registered LAMES only).

This is going to have an immediate impact on operations from day 1 and will only get worse the longer it goes on.

The ball is now in Oldmeadows' court. All they have to do is offer people a reasonable pay rise and things will be back to normal. They haven't even offered us 3% at this stage and that is after 6 months negotiating and 3 months overdue!!

[HotDog]

numbskull, I agree with you. Glad I'm not working for Qantas any more but must say, the attitude of some previous posters will only encourage more out sourcing of maintenance.:(

[AN LAME]

numbskull and hot dog

Sadly there are always a few rotten apples in every bunch. As much as we are p!ssed off with QF and the manner in which they screw everyone bar management and consultants - it is the professionalism missing in these two which supposedly defines us as'professionals' and enables us to continue to do our job.

[Ultralights]

my attitude was forced apon me by my employer at the time,

after 10 yrs service, being told, sorry, you will have to take a good 20% PAY CUT, then start at the bottom of the new pay scale! and work a THURTHER 10 YRS just to get back to where i started! then ask me to work Harder? YEAH right! :mad: :mad: :mad:

not only this, but after taking it up with the Union, being dragged into the office, door slammed behind me, then told directly to my face by my senior manager I am going to dedicate the rest of my career to seeing out you kicked out of here!!! now get the F*uck out of my face!!!

i just hope this never happens to you, or anyone out there! the guys out there Deserve better! they are hard working, and love their work!! the company management has created this environment! not the guys on the coal face,
and how would you react if what happened to me happened to you????

[AN LAME]

You have a case for being ****ty with the union, your manager at the time and your pet dog if you like. But not to sit on your arse and bludge on your mates. As my moniker may suggest I copped a bit of a kick in the knackers a couple of years ago and struggled for some time to gain some meaningful employment. As far as I was concerned it was a matter of sheer perseverance and not letting the bastards win

[Ultralights]

as a result, i became a delegate, and i refused all overtime! so hopefully, i wasnt a drain on my fellow employees, and if my fellow engineers asked me to help with a job, i did. i basically worked to rule till the redundancy arrived.

[Son of Brake Boy]

I'm not quite sure how sitting on ones buttocks is a drain on the rest of your workmates!?

You can only work as hard as you can work whether your pals are sitting on their bottoms or not, and if the aircraft isnt servicable in the companies allocated time constraints....it sits there. Boo Hoo.

I'm sick of seeing people cutting corners , stressing, and busting their nut to get aircraft servicable time after time, only to be treated with absolute contempt come EBA time.

Sorry to all those who believe we will be respected by being nice guys. The last 3 EBA results are proof that this attitude only provides entertainment value for the QF I/R department.

They are getting what they deserve.

Maintain the Rage.

[socks]

An Lame you didn't have to struggle too hard to gain MEANINGFUL employment it was given to you on a platter, its a shame you dont respect your office and the responsibility that comes with it.

So never talk to us about bludging on your mates El Sectretare.

[sys 4]

maintian the rage---the company tried this hard ball crap in 01-02 with the ame's and it failed it cost them millions and in the end the ame's got what they were seeking.Dixon and Oldmeadow really don't have a clue as to what's going on the floor ,this dispute will cost them a hell of a lot more than they think.Perhaps share holders may start to ask questions as to why they awarded these numb skulls a 66% pay rise.

[numbskull]

We all agree that the last few EBA's have been less than satisfactory and less than the national average while QF is making record profits.

However bludging is not the answer to getting a better EBA outcome.

[AN LAME]

socks

For some strange reason you seem to associate anyone from the AN side of the tracks as being the current Secretary. I am not he, but I do support the individual (who was the only person to put his hand up and accept the job at the last election), having seen him in action prior to that time. He accepted the job when nobody else nominated.

Everything on these threads topics are either hearsay, rhetoric or plain subterfuge unfortunately aided and abetted by the severe communication problem the ALAEA as with its members. And that is certainly not to say that they haven't dropped the ball on a number of issues and occasions.

Some of you long term QF soft c0cks (the minority thankfully) sit there and whinge and whine but when the opportunity is there to take control - such as the election after the AN collapse - you all disappear up your own fundamental orifices and then come back six months later to whine and moan some more. Instead of whining anonymously on a website, grow some testicles and nominate yourself. At least you'll be in a position to accept blame when next an EBA negotiation falls over because you're dealing with a ruthless bunch of pr!cks who happen to be your employer.

Also, despite your beliefs, the Association is not AIPA - it purports to represent more than just QF membership. God help the rest of the industry if any QF people get the cohunas to stand - although the initial revelation that there IS an industry outside of QF may well be enough to kill you.

(Hope this post satisfies the spelling police)

[fordran]

Not the Secretary?

Having been at AN for some 20 years and having dealt with DJ management occasionally since

(as the secretary of the union would)



By the way, if the ALAEA is ' an unscrupulpous and aggressive union', what does that make the AMWU, or the TWU


(ah yes, lets stick the knives in to my best friends)

One only needs to read your prior postings to see that you are he. Get a real job and stop sponging off us!

[AN LAME]

Ah another favorite fordran - a conspiratorialist if ever there was - didn't take long for you to crawl out of your hole.

I suppose you'll start complaining about AVV now about how the LAMEs there have to sign for work done by unqualified AMEs - or whatever your latest rhetioric. Here's some advice - DON'T. You were issued with a CASA LICENCE not a QF one. You simply say no and check the work as you are required by the REGULATOR - that's CASA despite the attitude of some of you forelock tugging whiners.

Once again I am not DK. I imagine he wouldn't give the time of day to reading the drivel some of you whiners come up with.

[Son of Brake Boy]

A perfect dk response.

If its good I'll take the credit.

If its not, hey nothing to do with me.

Also containing the trademark 'If you dont agree with me you must be scum' attitude of the ALAEA executive.

Maintain the Rage

[AN LAME]

'...containing the trademark 'If you dont agree with me you must be scum' ...'
And you and your cronies responses to my criticism differs from this statement in what manner?

Once again, there was more than one LAME at AN. And why didn't any of you heroes step up when the opportunity was in the offing rather than DK hyaving to go around again.

'If its good I'll take the credit' Once you explain this cryptic gibberish I'll try and make a retort - or not.

'Having been at AN for some 20 years and having dealt with DJ management occasionally since' (as the secretary of the union would)...as did others
'By the way, if the ALAEA is ' an unscrupulpous and aggressive union', what does that make the AMWU, or the TWU ' Now you're confusing me with SP and the Melbourne nuffies

[Son of Brake Boy]

In scanning the previous posts regarding yourself, I am unable to see you called any other name than dk (An insult in some circles I'm sure but hardly at the level of childish name calling!). As always I stand to be corrected, and will acknowledge such correction as necessary.

I find it very interesting that the fact dk's job would be a paid position was kept quite secretive until after he was selected for the position. No arguement....this I know for a fact. Many of OUR colleagues would have jumped at the oppurtunity.

And finally, if you have an issue with SP deal with it like a professional union official or move on. You COULD throw hot water at him or sue him hoping that he'll crumble, but that wouldn't be professional now would it!?.

The days of the current executive are numbered. 3 Months after the guys decide to implement O/T bans, the union tries to endorse it.

Now that what I call having a finger on the pulse of the members.

[AN LAME]

'In scanning the previous posts regarding yourself, I am unable to see you called any other name than dk (An insult in some circles I'm sure but hardly at the level of childish name calling!). As always I stand to be corrected, and will acknowledge such correction as necessary.'

So you and your consipracy theorists have , in the absence of a shred of evidence, decided that because I hold a view that does not agree with your own then I MUST be someone on the Exec. How absurd - not to mention paranoid. The second part of the above statement is even more absurd - this is an anonymous rumour netwrok. Which part of that don't you understand?

'I find it very interesting that the fact dk's job would be a paid position was kept quite secretive until after he was selected for the position. No arguement....this I know for a fact. Many of OUR colleagues would have jumped at the oppurtunity.'

The issue of payment in the role of Fed Sec has been well known since it became a full time position. If the Fed Sec worked for an airline, his time away frpom work was covered by his employer - in the same manner as the Exec. What did you expect the bloke to do - do it for free ( I'm sure you and your ilk would jump at the chance) If the current Fed Sec was QF his time would be paid by QF as has been custom and practice. If you cared to drop in and have a look at the financial records it would be quite clear. But then again, you're there all the time, eh Steve.

'Now that what I call having a finger on the pulse of the members.'... more like up your arse

[Son of Brake Boy]

The more you post, the more stupid you sound.

I call you dk, you can call me SP for all I care. I know the truth and thats enough for me....now how 'bout you?

Whether you are a part of the ALAEA executive or not, once again I dont really care. Drawing a long bow as it may be, seems the only people who think the executive is doing a good job are....the executive (and those supported by the current executive!).

The financial records....now there is an interesting one. Why, as a normal fully paid up member, am I unable to know how much dk costs ALAEA members per annum?

It cant be that much can it.

And finally, in a thread devoted to the morale of QF LAME's why do you care more about the name you are called than the serious issue being discussed.

Sounds like the sort of guy who'd be insulted by being labelled a 'tainted union official'

Continue with the name calling and profanity. Merely demonstrates the firm grasp you have on the English language (and on .....).

Maintain the Rage

[AN LAME]

Once again
'...containing the trademark 'If you dont agree with me you must be scum' ...'

your response to my criticism differs from this statement in what manner?

[Son of Brake Boy]

And the circle continues....sounds like a perfect dk answer!

If it sounds like waste, smells like waste, looks like waste, you can be pretty sure its waste.

Beautifully avoided addressing the real issues....situation normal ( for another 12 months or so!)

Maintain the Rage

[Ultralights]

cmon fellas! ive finished my popcorn

this is getting boring, and childish.

[Son of Brake Boy]

But we was havin' so much fun!!!!!

[Ultralights]

ok then, i dont want to ruin anyones fun!! let me refill my popcorn

[The masked goatrider]

This topic is about LAME moral at Qantas. It is low and I think we have been discussing the source of all the problems. The pis% weak union and it's Sponge Bob leader.

AN LAME I hear what you are saying about your paid position and what a great job you do. I understand that if you had a real job, you would get reimbursed by the union to the airline. I just want to know why we haven't been able to contact you for the last month. After all we have just been told to take industrial action against Qf for the first time ever. (we have taken it before but please note that it was the members decision then).

As for your paid position lets get some facts out there.



You initially were appointed to the role by the Federal Executive, not elected by the members.

You held this honorary position whilst still working at Ansett with no need to become the full time Sec.

You lost your job.

All of a sudden you were required to be a full time Sec paid by the members with your position reviewed by the Exec every month.

An election was called for all Exec spots including yours and nobody was informed that that the Sec job would be a full time paid position.

You were elected unopposed whilst all other ex AN LAMEs looked for real jobs.

A number of other Melbourne boys you don't like also got elected and they would have opposed the monthly review of your paid position.

You called a short notice Exec meeting for June 27 2002. The outgoing Exec voted to remove the requirement to review your position on a monthly basis and ordered a contract be made to keep you full time whilst you and you alone remain Fed Sec.

July 1 2002. The new Exec takes over and aren't allowed to review or see your contract.



Sounds above board to me. Would you like to dispute any of these facts? We can scan the minutes and create links to them if you like.

Since your time at the helm you have made certain that division has reigned supreme throughout our Qf membership. This is the root of our problems, it will also cause your demise.

Have a nice day AN LAME.

[Orville]

AN lame, Let me welcome you back to this Forum. your frequent comments last year were always welcome and I hoped to continue to read them. But unfortunately you banned all your senior exec. staff from contributing to any of these forums early this year and you of course had to comply also. It was always nice to read between the lines of your comments and I would use them to decipher the mind set of the ASN.

Because I too believe you are who you say you are not, your frequent response to those who questioned the ASN was " you would be surprised what went on behind closed doors" ( at the ASN). as you are the only ex-Ansett member of the Exec. you are the only one who would then qualify to be privy to the goings on behind said closed doors.

I hope this doesn't mean that we have seen the end of you for another 3 months.........?

[AN LAME]

For once goatrider you are correct, this thread is about LAME moral(e) at QF. I am a QF LAME - despite your non-belief due to my opposition to a great deal of the garbage that emanates from yourself, (Son of) Brake Boy and other sundry persons. And if you read my initial contributions to the thread before we got side tracked, I was bemonaing what I felt was an unprofessional attitude by a couple of contributors. That does not mean that I think Qantas are a magnamimous employer - far from it. They are as aggressive and antagonistic employer in Australia today. But if the contributions of the vocal minority on this thread are any indication of the collective professional attitude of our fellow LAMEs, then how in hell are we going to win better pay and conditions.

I'm all for the O/T ban and further action but I suspect that some of our esteemed colleagues may find it a bit difficult to swallow when faced with a loss of personal income and will break ranks - which is a problem faced by most unionised groups in this industry.

[Sunfish]

Ah professionalism! What a lovely word. This is a term often dear to the hearts of people on the shop floor who have worked their way up the ladder and who rightly feel proud of their achievements and professional status.

To give a long winded example, I was always stuck at school and as a young AN engineer with the necessity to wear a tie - I hate the things! On blisteringly hot days at Tulla a few of us would remove said ties. Usually this was spotted within fifteen minutes by middle managers who had worked their way up, earning the right to wear a tie in the process, who reacted with horror and outrage! Mr. AN sounds like this.

Trouble is possums, that clinging to the use of that word and the status attached can be counter productive. I have to tell you that management will play on your "professional" sensitivities, your duty to the company, passengers, flight crew, country and of course your "profession" for all they are worth.

Meanwhile as a "professional" engineer, MBA, Manager, I have watched "professional" venture capitalists, merchant bankers, academics and business men engage in conduct that would make you want to vomit.

Translation. Forget the "professional" argument. The Australian Medical Association is a "professional" body as well, just like the legal "profession", and just watch how they gouge on behalf of their members.

There is no need to back off because you are "professional", in fact one could argue that your "professional" responsibilities demand a "professional" salary to go with it!

Cheers,

Sunfish

[LUBE BOY]

Lets get real here guys.......these ot bans have to date just played into (qf) hands and must be saving them millions.

I only hope that now its official we all get busy at home and refuse to come in. OT bans alone are not enough, We also need to take MELB's example and stop overlooking minor things....put it in the book. This will backlog the Maint system and put far more pressure on mgmt than ot bans alone.

Lets see a couple left in the hangar every day for a while...see what that does for the bottom line. WORK TO RULE

Give back a little of the pain they have dished out to us in the past 3 or4 EBA's.



:* :* :*

[numbskull]

there is no way QF will be ble to maintain schedules on day one let alone on an ongoing basis.

This is not playing into their hands as they simply won't be able to consistently keep to their schedules and LAMES are obviously going to be less inclined to "go the extra mile" to get the plane out on time.

Now that this "war" has officially started lets make sure its for something worthwhile- after all there is supposed to be a labour shortage

[PUNGENT]

numbskull
'Now that this "war" has officially started lets make sure its for something worthwhile- after all there is supposed to be a labour shortage'
Well lets make it worthwhile, all MA holders refuse to utilise your MA priviliges (we do not get paid for them anyway). In fact I would like to see our ALAEA executive make this official. QANTAS are giving us 0% and yet we continue to give them something for gratis'.

[sys 4]

AN LAME i bloody well missed the key when i typed morale anyway if we are to go forward with this dispute now we need the ALAEA to come into work to give the boys and girls some direction as to what is expected because the lame's are very green when it comes to this sort of thing,they are already talking about doing their .3 o/t for handovers in heavy so as not to slow the d check we are near completing.it's time the exec showed it's self at work.

[AN LAME]

sys 4
Sorry about the little dig about the 'e'.
As I have said, one of the biggest problems the Asn has is communicating with the members and I agree whole heartedly that they should be out guiding the members on the floor.
Sadly, I've heard tonight that the SP faction is moving through MEL trying to drum up another petition to stop the O/T ban in the same manner as the one which prevented industrial action in support of the preflight inspections. In both instances I can only ask - WHY?

[Son of Brake Boy]

WHY....

I dont know about you, but if 'your' union was about to expose you to possible financial ruin, would you want to have a say in the matter?

You are blatantly NOT a QF LAME. If you actually listened to the guys on the floor you'd know exactly what the sentiment is.

O/T bans have been in place for approximately 3 months now. Aircraft are being grounded and delayed, hurting QF reliability and customers....and there's not a thing QF can do about it.

You make it official, and if one person refuses to do O/T, ANYBODY can be stood down without pay indefinately.

'Whats the next step then' I hear you say. Scale up the unofficail bans. Its not hard to coordinate, and its not hard for union officals to distance themselves from.

[AN LAME]

SoBB
You are without a doubt one of the most paranoid idiots I hope never to come across. I don't 'come across' guys on the floor, because I am simply one of them who happens to disagree with your delusional view of the world. At least you have now identified yourself as one of those responsible for the petitions - and a Melbourne nuffie. You are undoubtedly a narrow minded, simplistic, ignorant fool.
And the next step you ask? It's the one to oblivion to which you and your ilk are consigning us all.
Idiot.

[company_spy]

well..............
First of all, Stop refering to the ALAEA as a union. It is NOT. Its an association.
The majority of QF employees would not work in an iron lung. The amount of so called work you do for the exorbanent amount of money you earn is absoluletly outrageous.
One hour for smoko, Long down times between aircraft arrivals, going home early on night shift, etc etc.
If I was paying the bills you would all recieve a 20% pay cut instead of whinging about a 3% pay rise.
Think about how much you earn and how much work you actually do. On the other side of the fence you would have to work alot harder for the same money. If you still feel the need to whinge about how badly you are treated then i suggest you pull your head out of the sand and think how lucky you really are.
On a lighter side, I have heard of SDT and SIT refered to as Hollywood because of all the actors. Sounds to me more like a circus because of all the clowns.

[AN LAME]

I disagree with alot of what you said company_spy - but I like the way you say it :D

[Son of Brake Boy]

Paranoid you say!? Is it a possibility ie do the laws of Australia allow it....absolutely. Is it realistic?...more realistic with the 'professional' negotiators we're using at the moment than 3%+ pay rise. Stick to the facts - IT IS A POSSIBILTY!

If you worked 'on the floor' you would come across their opinions quite frequently. Funnily enough the current industrial situation and lack of meaningful progress is quite a hot topic.

When did I say I was involved in the action being carried out in Melbourne. I merely said I understood where they were coming from. You asked 'Why?'....dont shoot the messenger!

Try keeping the conversation away from personal attacks. If you do that, you really have very little to say!

company_spy....very humorous. Look forward to your further postings.

[numbskull]

SOBB some ports have have unofficial OT bans on for some time however Sydney Base Maint has never had one. A large percentage of work on 747/767 fleet is done by them and the official OT ban will dramatically effect work output from them. This will reverberate out through the network quite quickly.

Unofficial bans may have had some impact but the only way the association can be truly effective is if we act as one with "official action"

Pungent- MA holders have always done it for "the glory" of it all anyway. There never has been a payment for it and never will. You'll probably find that most MA holders are quite hapy doing it for nothing as it gives them trips away and "bragging rights" Let them have it I say. I have other things on in my life that stops me dropping everything and flying to some sh#thole to do a walkaround.

Sys 4- I agree that heavy maint senior LAMES should not do the .3 hr OT. But really what difference will it make!!

Thanks for the input Company Spy-you sound like one of my supervisors-probably MR Qantas reborn. We should be able to pick you out at work as you'll be the one doing OT.

[sys 4]

numskull the .3 o/t will have a large effect,if the senior lame needs to do his handover at the begining of the shift the rest of the crew are standing around waiting for the jobs instead of getting bang on the begining of shft =8 crews 10 men per crew 1/2 hr per crew member =40HRS per shift =80 hrs per day of work not being done.it all adds up quickly, and besides an o/t ban must be for everyone if we are to stand united.WE CANNOT HAVE EXCEPTIONS.

[Mr Qantas]

I dont need to be reborn and agree with the spy.

As for handover time I rekon we cant refuse the .3 hour o/t and if you read your alaea Q/A sheet it explains it all. We are responsable enough to realize that we must do a hand over so the safety of the airline is protected.

Dont be stupid about your bans just listen to the assosiation.

[AN LAME]

Mr Q

I've read the Notice and its ALL ports, ALL O/T except customer aircraft and aircraft retrievals. It's cut and dried. No hyandover O/T. Take your own advice and follow the leagl direction of the Asn. Ifnot and you breach ranks I hope the Asn takes action against you.

[Orville]

AN lame, I ask myself why have you come back out of the woodwork to endorse this OT ban when for many years you and your cronnies have been saying that--- " it is not possible , because we would just wind up in court."

Me thinks that is where you want this to be played out and hence the formalising of the ban. The Ban was working quite well with out you interferring and it was having a significant effect without those from Syd. supporting it.

I applaud the Melb. contingent for being proactive in their actions, The petition that stopped you having the Industrial action in support of the pre-flights saved us from an ruling from the commissioner that would have lost the fight for ever, at least we survive to continue the fight well past the deadline that qantas wanted.

I would recommend that any engineers wishing to stop being sold out again by our ASN leaders contact Melb. Eng's and find out who is actually canvasing for this so called petition and offer their support. You suggest that it is SP but I think you are again paranoid and seeing shadows at your back. Whoever it is has my support.

[AN LAME]

Orville

Sadly your paranoid distrust of the asn has caused you and the others who signed the petition to prevent the last remaining legal ability to take industrial action to retain the preflight as it would appear that the operators have conned CASA at this stage. And come July, little Johnny and the Senate are going to put the last nail in the coffin. That is the legacy of you and your cronies - fools one and all.

[sys 4]

Mr Qantas what planet are you from,how will not doing a handover jeopardize aircraft safety,this forum is for aircraft professionals i'm sure there is other forums out there for you

[Orville]

And I suppose the communists are still under the bed, your use of scare tactics are predictable, give us some credit, we saw you coming on that one.

[unhappy worker]

Company_Spy, Company _Stooge more likely. It's obvious which side of the fence you come from. No doubt the rarified air from the upper floors has affected your thoughts or perhaps you're just affected by the virus sweeping management. The results leaving you deaf and shortsighted to the calls of reform from your workers. It is good to see the union showing some backbone in our negotiations but perhaps they haven't gone far enough to show you how resiliant we are.

[Pappa Smurf]

Can i ask a simple question.

We all know Lames can earn more in the odd part of the world ,but how does Qantas compare on the local scene.

We all want an extra buck,thats human,but in my past experiences those pushing for strikes ,O/T bans etc are quite happy working for minumum hours,and the only ones suffering are those who want to work for a bit extra.
Ive seen companies stop O/t offered for different reasons ,and boy ,does that get people upset.

The side of things that worry me is "why do companies look at out sourcing things overseas".
Thats not to hard to work out ,but we still cant sit down and be taken for a ride----the typical catch 22 position

[Ultralights]

QANTAS SPY..... On the other side of the fence you would have to work alot harder for the same money.

Obviously QF spy, you have never left the shelter of your Qantas cocoon, the Outside world is a LOT different! No one in the outside world treats their employees as bad as QF! and in the outside world, the same work you do Inside QF will get you TWICE the money....

[numbskull]

Mr Qantas,glad to see you back.We've all missed you!!!

Tell me, are Base Maintenance supervisors still part of the ALAEA and as such will they also be taking part in the OT ban???

[company_spy]

Ultralights, what you say holds no relevance for this forum. If what you are saying is true then WHY do you work for QF. I know of no person who would do their job knowing they can get the twice the pay elsewhere.
Unhappy worker, what’s there to be unhappy about? You all receive staff travel, a bonus system second to none, a SAFE working environment and many other fringe benefits (cars, laptops, etc etc). Just try and think for just one second how good you all really have it. How many of your mates can say they earn as much as you and do as little as you do for it. When was the last time you went home form work truly exhausted???? Maybe after a night shift but is it really exhausting to sit in the smoko room for hours playing the computer, watching TV, chatting or sleeping??? As soon as you finish work and walk out the gate you need not think of work again until you walk back in. Any other tradesman out there would have to work 16-hour days 7 days a week to get the same or more money then you guys. Are these the people you are talking about ultralights?????
You all seem not to understand. We are trying to improve the way we do business so that we can keep jobs here in Australia. Eg. Lean sigma, jetsmart. It seems all you want to do is whinge and complain about the changes. You are your own worst enemy.
Take a trip out of pity city and see how lucky you all are.
And what’s going on in MEL? Are you all running scared and trying to justify your obsolete jobs? The quantity of your work is impressive however the quality is appalling! It’s ironic how we have one group (lean sigma) trying to reduce turn times to make an area more efficient and then we have MDT increasing a transit to become an "A" check. Is this a reflection on your association's divisions???
May I offer a suggestion.........Pull your heads in.

[Eimar Moron]

You're either a wind-up merchant, or an under 10 year old, company_spy.

Quote: "I know of no person who would do their job knowing they can get the twice the pay elsewhere."
You mean you are unaware of Jet Star and Virgin Blue staff?

Quote: "When was the last time you went home form work truly exhausted????"
QF employ professional lame's. not football players!

Quote: " As soon as you finish work and walk out the gate you need not think of work again until you walk back in."
That's why we're not paid when we're not at work.

Quote: "We are trying to improve the way we do business so that we can keep jobs here in Australia./Take a trip out of pity city and see how lucky you all are."
Here they come again, the same old threats..."You should be grateful for having a job" (regardless that you are being paid **** money.) YOU should be grateful you have quality employees for the **** you pay!

Quote: "The quantity of your work is impressive however the quality is appalling!"
You mean you want to pay me ****, use no KY, and tell me to say "I love you" and smile? Would you like fries with that?

Eimar Moron.

[Ultralights]

thanks for the laugh QF spy...

Ultralights, what you say holds no relevance for this forum. If what you are saying is true then WHY do you work for QF.

I NO longer work for QF! I workED for Qf because i loved the job, still do, its challeneging and rewarding, and i love flying, I left, because i was wronged by the company, and treated unfairly, and at the same time watching the execs give themselves massive pay rises! at our direct expense..

what’s there to be unhappy about? You all receive staff travel, a bonus system second to none,
really? i still have staff travel rights, and will do for the next 10 yrs! have i used it yet since leaving, NO, VB fares are CHEAPER, and i know i will get a seat!

When was the last time you went home form work truly exhausted????
Every day, and with the satisfaction of doing a good days work and knowing my staff are happy........ and hence, my customers....

Any other tradesman out there would have to work 16-hour days 7 days a week to get the same or more money then you guys.

ummm, no, if i work a 3 day week, for 10 hrs a day... i will exceed my wages at QF.

The quantity of your work is impressive however the quality is appalling!

really!!!!! ****, i always thought that in the maintainence game, it was the QUALITY of your work that ensures aircraft safety! aircraft safety ensures a good reputation, and SAVES LIVES!

so in fact QF SPY, you are willing to sacrifice SAFETY in the name of making a $..............

remember mr QF spy, and MR.Q, Qantas is NO longer the premier airline,.... just another one....

[Mr Qantas]

AN LAME and sys4 you look like you need some explanations

Mr Qantas what planet are you from,how will not doing a handover jeopardize aircraft safety,this forum is for aircraft professionals i'm sure there is other forums out there for you

The handover is a critical tool used by us proffessionals to ensure safety. If we dont have it or rush it we may miss vital steps for the oncoming crews. AN LAME did you read the alaea question answer sheet.

The senior engineers in Syd have with the asisstance of s.fenech organized some answers for the members of the alaea to the questions on handovers and other operators etc..

It was decided and told to alaea members from the alaea that handovers are not to be part of the ban. read the alaea publicatoin. Aus air and NZ retgistered Qf aircraft are also excluded from the bans.

Base overtime will be ok on them and Atlas aircraft and all qf aircraft to be worked by those on shift. We thank Mr Fenech and Heywood for a sensable and proffessional approach to the limatations.

[The masked goatrider]

Taken from the ALAEA joke website and posted by Trustee SFThings arent drawn out because we like it that way their drawn out because the Act puts in place so many walls and hurdles that have to be jumped in a set order and in a particular way lest you fall foul of the traps that the legislation has for unions and employees.

Just a few questions that you might like to answer AN LAME

The ALAEA have met with Qf 6 times for the EBA in approx 5 months or 1 meeting every 4 weeks while we wait patiently for a wagerise. Why have the ALAEA made themselves available to meet with Qf every week to discuss the LAMEless tarmac the Qf wants? Are you and your Trustee sure you don't want the negotiations drawn out?

Why were the bans approved 2 weeks before Easter but not taken until one week after Easter? Qf were notified of the bans last Tues. The act requires 3 full days notice and the bans could have started Sat morning. Why did the alaea give them 5 days notice? Now the bans start Mon morning along with all the Qf managers. Good move.

Who decided to exclude flying spanner duties from the bans? The Exucutive didn't. Another decision or was this an instruction from beyond? Bans that can't impact on the airline operation. No wonder the Qf managers are rubbing their hands together.

I note you haven't disputed or asked for further information to be supplied from my last post.

[sys 4]

Mr Qantas you really have now idea do you,the handover is brought in to minimize the crews standing around at the begining of shift(so that you don't have 80 people standing around for 1/2 hr while the senior lame gets jobs together).The morning shift only gets it's handover from the handover book, the last nights senior lame doesn't hang around until the morning.TWIT.
P.S. lets hope you don't have to do a handover for saftey's sake

[AN LAME]

I tend to ignore your posts goatrooter (SP, WB, PC, ...insert any of the above) because they are just the same diatribe bemoaning any and every thing the asn does - with which I have no connection other than as a concerned member .

[Annulus Filler]

I would like to redirect you all to another post.

What Lame's really earn?

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=163579&highlight=lame+wages

You may be surprised.

[numbskull]

Company spy -that job description you gave may be for your own job but don't put everyone in that basket. I regularly go home exhasted. Not everyone sits in the smoko room for hrs playing the computer(though I'll grant you some do-most however don't)


I have over 20 yrs in the company licenced on two A/C types and last years my base pay was $72000.

I believe this reasonably in line with other trades of similiar experience and qualifications outside of the aviation industry. What I want is a pay rise similiar to what other trades in Australia are receiving ie 4-5 % ( I'm even willing to accept the last few years belt tightening as a result of industry turmoil).

What I'm not prepared to accept is an offer less than the Australian average AGAIN in return for those draconian clauses such as

1-OT banking where they tell you what days you will be taking off

2-transmission of business where they spin off engineering into a seperate company and disassociate themselves from any redundancy/entitlement payout

3-get no shift penalties while on training(35-40%) paycut for 2-3 months.Who can afford that. They'll have us paying for our courses next like the pilots who have to pay for ratings.

No GD has had his own way for far too long and its time some other people besides himself were rewarded for their work.At least lets make him work harder for HIS pay rise!!!

[Sunfish]

My experience many years ago was that all aviation industry associations were in the pocket of the employers. Sounds like nothing has changed.

Only way this is going to end is with one or more smoking holes in the ground.

[Turbo 5B]

What a refreshing web site. It's good to see Mr Qantas (aka alaea/qantas stooge) not able to edit or censor post that he doesn't like.

[Annulus Filler]

numbskull, I didn't see you add your details to the other post!!!!!

If this thread is all about crying poor and low morale, I know many people who earn a lot less than you and have very high morale.

Morale comes from within. Not from how much you earn.

[sys 4]

morale is not just about what you get paid but it is very important non the less,when you have management constantly telling you that you are going to be outsourced,retrenched,sold off(perhaps a good thing),you are overpaid,the board appoint themselves a 66% pay rise,managment a 36% pay rise,morale will will be some what battered .

[numbskull]

Annulus filler- how does a conehead know what an annulus filler is??? I'm very impressed!!!! I don't now why you guys are interested in what everyone else earns apart from gloating. I definitely ticked the wrong box!!

I didn't reply to the other post as a I didn't think that valid comparisons could be made. You post made no mention of how many licences, what sort of shift pattern, length of service to name a few.

Morale doesn't come from within. It comes from being part of a successful team where your input and efforts are valued by your manager and it is recognised in some manner.(It doesn't have to be financially but that is the traditional yardstick)

I'm sure there are many many people who get less than me but have high morale. They are probably recognised by their management as making a valuable contribution.(One line in the annual report each year is not quite what I mean!!)

If my efforts were recognised more then my morale would be higher and I probably wouldn't be quite so p!$$ed off.

Maybe if GD had only given himself and his managers a 3% rise I could live with it.

Maybe if I thought I had a good chance of furthering my career by more training my morale would be higher.

Maybe if I didn't think Engineering is going to be spun off down the track and my services disposed of because it can be done cheaper in China I would be more optimistic(It will always be cheaper in China).

Maybe If my costs (petrol/health insurance/interest rates/grocery bills/taxes/child care) were going up less than 3% I could live with it. I know plasma TV's are cheaper but that doesn't really help much.

Yes my morale is low but I can't see any reason to be satisfied with any of the above

[Annulus Filler]

MAYBE MAYBE MAYBE MAYBE

Maybe a better payrise still won't get you a higher morale.

Dig deeper numbskull and tell us what you really want and we may be able to find a solution.

Maybe there is no solution and it may be time for you to move on.

Maybe that will boost the morale of some other people with all that negativity I read on this post.

The point I am trying to make with the other post is that we keep comparing ourselves to everyone else and it is not until you get the real facts that you may find that the grass is not always greener on the other side and in fact you are doing just fine.

[Son of Brake Boy]

Well, neither here nor there concerning the wage situation, here's something I'm sure will bring deep sorrow to all QF engineering staff....

BD has been off work due to what appears to have been a nervous break-down.

Thats right! Those who were fortunate enough to receive last weeks Line Maintenance newsletter were told that BD had recovered from his bout of dizziness, but alas the truth has surfaced of him falling into a heap in convulsions and twitching all over the place.

Removed from the workplace in an ambulance, he isnt expected back at work this week. Wonder what bought that on!!!

Also news today that ALAEA president has made himself available for O/T on customer aircraft. I know its 'allowed', but you'd think these guys would be making it as difficult for QF management as possible and leading by example, given they've directed some other departments not to do any O/T at all

Maintain the Rage

[sys 4]

it seems that the ALAEA are part of the morale problem at QF when they are suspending elected members of the exec in the middle of a sudo industrial dispute

[Son of Brake Boy]

Whats the next move with the Industrial action (Officially!)?

Word out of BNE International is that the executive have approved bans on higher duties, but they are unsure as to when this will start.

Unofficially, some people are beginning to refuse to process warranty jobs. The attitude has been if QF management are going to stall negotiations because BD cant put up with a little stress in his life, and thus cost us money, we'll just have to cost THEM money by refusing to fill out warranty claims.

Also heard rumours of people finding second jobs too. The examples I was given were all cash in hand, no tax, no super surcharge and definately no problems. Apparently there is a shortage of tradesman in Australia at the moment so the work is quite easy to find! Helps out those who are stratched, and gives them options for when their time comes to throw off the shackles of QF.

If nothing else comes out of the Industrial action, we've learnt how to make as much overtime for ourselves as we want. All those little insignificant defects we always used to 'ignore' are now being logged. And when all this is over, they spell only one thing....$$$$!

QF management will pay in the long run. How they do it, is up to them.

Maintain the Rage

[Mean, Nasty & Tired]

Where do I Start ?

:mad: Customer Aircraft

:} Transit Authories and Extensions/Maint. Authorities

:yuk: Higher Duties

:{ Secondments

:\ Blu Flu

Just for starters:ok:

[Woomera]

WELL over 100 posts. Feel free to start a new thread.