SIA Changes the Contract - Again!

[Anotherpost75]

Life seems to have a depressingly uniform predictability for the pilots of Singapore Airlines. I¡¯ve just had a call from an ex-colleague who recently interviewed for the airline (despite my considered advice not to) and who, amongst other things, mentioned the speech made last week by the Chairman of the SIA Board, the gist of which was that in future, pilots could expect annual bonus payments to be capped at the equivalent of two months salary, whatever the magnitude of profits made by the airline.

The current projected fiscal 2005 record SIA profit figure indicates, according to Alpa-s, that the next annual bonus payable within the terms of the present Collective Agreement should be in the 5-6 months salary range, so it rather looks like SIA is about to unilaterally change the pilot contract - yet again!

In light of back pay still unreturned to the pilots from the (convenient) SARS panic of two years ago, when SIA chopped salaries at record speed (after strong-arming a particularly complient Alpa-s Chairman), the proposed bonus cuts merely add insult to injury against a backdrop of very high pilot productivity and relatively low fixed salaries.

Interesting to note that the common threads of ex-pat feeling amongst all the SIA pilots my colleague managed to speak with, were ones of outrage and powerlessness that past and presently proposed Collective Agreement changes should have been forced on them under circumstances engineered by the Company that produced an inability to give notice to quit by virtue of bonds, bank guarantees and monies owed to them that would be forfeited following such action. In a nutshell, ¡°Once you¡¯re dumb enough to sign, they have you by the short and curlies and do just what the hell they like¡±, as one commentator put it. All said that they would not be renewing their contracts and could not wait to leave the airline.

The tale has a happy ending, however. My colleague has decided he wouldn¡¯t touch SIA with a barge pole! Other aspirants take note.

[CDRW]

Excellent post - the feeling of helplessness is profound. Seven First Officers threw the towel in last week - a fair number off to EK it is believed.

To think that this outfit has cut basic salaries to such an extent and now want to limit a bonus "that is based on the new salary" to just two months is laughable - no matter how much profit they make. As one Capt put it in a meeting - "I am embarrassed to show my expat friends what I earn".

[BANANASBANANAS]

Does this apply to SIA Cargo as well as mainline?

[jstars2]

BANANASBANANAS

Yes of course it applies to SIA Cargo as well as mainline. Difference is that the Cargo T & C’s are even worse.

[Phil Squares]

Just incase no one knows. SIA cargo pilots got a new contract effective 1March. Basically same thing as mainline.

[gengis]

A whole lot has been said about SQ so I'm not about to add anything.

Just to put it in a different light to those out there who, in spite of so much already raised bout SQ, remember this, SQ management are mostly placed there by political backers in Singapore. They take their cue from these guys. Which is why they've literally gotten away with murder in the past. Just what are these guys capable of? Consider this, at the end of 2003 when the issue of SIA vs ALPA-S was a real hot potato, Lee Kuan Yew said - and yes, this was published in the Straits Times - that "I rule by fear. I prefer to be feared than to be liked, and i will still win an election." He sets the tone for his subordinates to follow, and believe me this kind of thinking trickles down system wide - SIA certainly included. Those who, in spite of what you already know about SQ, are still contemplating going there.... well alas, you know what you're going in for and if you get burned and screwed, i for one wouldn't want to hear any of your bitching and wingeing on PPRUNE. You can't say you weren't told.

[BANANASBANANAS]

Thanks Phil. Just as I thought.

[jstars2]

gengis

Yep, spot on. I’d only like to amend one bit of what you’ve written….”if you get burned and screwed” should read “when you get burned and screwed”.

[Chambudzi]

I see old Phil is still busily talking up SIA Cargo and its contract. So its "basically the same" as SIA mainline. Do you get paid for paxing, do your kids get schooling up to age 21, how about your meal allowances are they the same. what about the ID 90s- do you get 4 of those a year like the mainline guys. On this particular thread I believe that the profit sharing you get is at the discretion of SIA and what they feel you deserve like the LON/PER/SYD basings. You know what that will probably mean.
Sorry to have a go mate but the contract you are on isnt "basically the same". You deserve the right to try and make it so but it has a long way to go yet. Good luck

[millerscourt]

chambudzi

Yes indeed old Phil does rather talk up SQ Cargo doesn't he!

Even if the deal was as he says same thing as Mainline which it most certainly is not then that in itself is hardly a ringing endorsement of the package is it!!??

Still if it makes him happy to think he is on the same deal as mainline then let him carry on being delusional.:{

[mochiman]

Seems to be a shortage of any postive news about working in SIA. With so many pilots working there, surely someone must be content?

Otherwise why did so many join in the first place?

Would appreciate some constructive answers!

Thanks

MM

[Phil Squares]

Chambudzi and et al. Please remember this is about perspectives. I can guarantee you my previous employer makes SIA look great. No vacation, no per diem, crap equipment, pressure to break FTLs all the time...the list goes on.

1) Correct no pay for positioning. However, that will most likely get resolved in the near term.

2) No ID 90s but I suggest you look at the CA. At mainline, you don't get those until 10 years of service.

3) Profit sharing is the same as SIA. The only question mark is the issue of the group profits or cargo profits. The current contract is for the SIA group.

4) Schooling is only to 18, but starts at 4. I have 3 children, but then again, I have been preparing for education for years.

5) Meal allowance v. Per Diem. We get S$8/hr. In some cases that's more than you guys and in some cases less. All in all, on a monthly basis I believe it's about the same.

6) Contract completion bonus? What does mainline get?

Is SIA Cgo perfect? No. However, my contract has changed 4 times for the better. All of this might just be a mute point. Seems as though the company can't attract the necessary Cargo pilots nor can it attract the necessary 777 pilots. So, ALPAS was approached a few weeks ago about folding the cargo pilots into mainline.

As I said in my opening line, it's a matter of perspectives. I have a question for all the nay sayers. What would have you me do, stay at my prior employer in europe, where your job was always in question or come here and have some peace of mind, and acutally make more on a monthly basis? Again, perhaps, if you are so unhappy, you should just tender your resignations and go to work for my prior employer. I'd be happy to give you all the contact details....

[highcirrus]

Jeez mochiman and Phil Squares some guys seem to think that what has been written in the thousands of past posts is somehow not true.

I really can't be bothered re-writing everything I've banged on about over recent years (which has all been true), so can I suggest that you read up on the situation Here (http://pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=110087&highlight=highcirrus)?

Phil

1) "Correct no pay for positioning" - If you're happy with this, more fool you!

2) "No ID 90s but I suggest you look at the CA. At mainline, you don't get those until 10 years of service" - Wrong, at Mainline you get 4 ID 90's per annum from day one.

3) "Profit sharing is the same as SIA. The only question mark is the issue of the group profits or cargo profits. The current contract is for the SIA group" - Watch this space, Phil, you'll see the latter profits being used to calculate bonus payments very shortly.

4) "Schooling is only to 18, to me that's no big deal. I have 3 children and have been preparing...." - Mainline schooling is from age 5 to age 20.

If SIA can get more blokes like you, Phil, they've cracked it. As it is, you're a bit of a rarity so they're going to have to work pretty hard in the near future, getting replacements for the guys who are quietly not renewing contracts and just slipping away from this vale of tears.

[millerscourt]

mochiman

Take heed of what HIgh Cirrus says re SQ. Just because Phil's previous employer was even worse than SQ does not make SQ Cargo a good deal in my book. If more like Phil turn up then SQ's problems are solved.

SQ's basis salary has never been that good but with regular large Bonus's through the years and a good exchange rate for S$ against most currencies it was a reasonably good deal but that has all disappeared with the new management style and collapse of the Sing Dollar.


Come and join if you like , just don't say you were not warned.

Yes mainline get 4 ID90's pa straight away and not after 10 years as Phil would like to think.

[mochiman]

HC

I understand what you are saying and I certainly do not doubt what you or others have mentioned about SIA. Just trying to see what else might be in the woodwork - that is all.

I appreciate your comments, I've had a look thru this forum all the way back to day one and certainly there is a lot to digest. Bad is always relative to one's situation.

Cheers

MM

[Rockhound]

As a complete outsider, I hesitate to add my two cents' worth but I would imagine there must be considerable job satisfaction in working as a pilot with an outfit that is highly professional, operates state-of-the-art equipment, andmakes money.
Rockhound

[highcirrus]

Rockhound

Whilst your post is obviously an adroit provocation, it’s worth responding in order to amplify the situation at Singapore Airlines, not in the form of a further rant, but configured in terms of that well known Management dictum, Hertzberg’s Two-Factor Theory of motivation and job satisfaction.

Hertzberg and associates asked their respondents what made them feel both particularly good and particularly bad about their jobs (the two factors). It transpired that what made them feel good about their jobs concerned responsibility and accomplishment and a feeling of growth in job competence. These satisfiers or motivators were clearly related to self actualization needs.

What made the respondents feel bad about their jobs were surrounding or environmental factors, such as inadequate salary, poor working conditions, insufficient job security, poor or over supervision, lack of power in benefit negotiation, exploitation etc. These dissatisfiers relate to Maslow’s (hierarchy of needs) lower level needs and Hertzberg suggests that a preponderance of them would lead to varying levels of dissatisfaction.

Improvements in these would reduce or remove dissatisfaction but no amount of improvement would elicit positive motivation and a feeling of well being. This would only come from accomplishing a meaningful and challenging task.

I would suggest therefore that the job satisfaction which you refer to in your post is something of a continuum in which the individual will find his or her own level of self actualization and as such, the baubles you mention such as “highly professional, operates state-of-the-art equipment, and makes money” may or may not assist the individual in attaining this actualization.

Whereas the current and rising level of SIA dissatisfiers provided either by commission or omission would tend to suggest that any form of job satisfaction, baubles notwithstanding, would be made impossible within SIA, for any but the most self deluding of pilots.

I’d be interested to know your thoughts on the matter.

[millerscourt]

Rockhound

Question How do you think SQ can operate state of the art equipment and make money??

Answer By paying ALL employees far less than rivals such as BA QF AF LH etc etc from the Cleaner to Pilots whilst getting the sames fares as the opposition. Really rather easy I would have thought.

[jabba-777]

there is always talk about how bad SIA pays compared to some of the major carriers.

Could or would someone give a break down of the salaries for a local and expat terms.

The reason for me asking this is that I have a friend that is currently employed in SIA as a FO.

He was telling me in his first year as an FO, his salary was nearly 90K Sing dollars + plus bonus.

Tax rates are quite low in singapore.

Now for me living in Australia, this is indeed a very good salary.
Im not sure how much a Qantas FO will make in his first year, but when you add in the tax rates you will pay in Australia, I doubt it will be what my friend is getting.

He says, so far he is very happy with the airline, they are strict but also fair.
He was also telling me that they have signed a new pay agreement, where their basic salary is going to go up and so will the productivity allowance.

These are some of the positives that should be looked at.

[CDRW]

Jabba - your friend must have started on the Frieghter - the terms that were intially offered where so poor they got less than 10% of the numbers they wanted - so for frieghter ops things could only have got better, and as some one mentioned, the conditions for the third time have improved for the better.

Would you believe that this months pay slip still has a "wage cut" entry - that's the 16% cut that was shoved down the crews throats during SARS - yes bloody SARS - how long ago was that!! So a basic salary of a 777 Capt for the month of March is S$ 7800 - that dear fellows is just under US$5000. Embarrassing is it not? And yes, when you work you can bring that number upto around K13, but, when you don't work, i.e do a course, go on leave or are sick for a few weeks, that's the sum you get. Pittance working for a "major airline"

Jabba - there are very very few positives. "Leave if you don't like" some say. Well, if a few could they would, but they can't beacuse of bonds and so called contracts.

[Chambudzi]

"Chambudzi and et al. Please remember this is about perspectives. I can guarantee you my previous employer makes SIA look great."

It certainly is about perspectives Phill especially when you joined SIA around 10 years ago and you have systematically been robbed since then with a contract in tatters.

" Correct no pay for positioning. However, that will most likely get resolved in the near term."

You are far too optimistic Phill. You could be right that it will be resolved but dont hold your breath sunshine. Only market forces and the desperate need to replace departing pilots will help you there.

"Seems as though the company can't attract the necessary Cargo pilots nor can it attract the necessary 777 pilots."

Seems we are on the same side of the arguement here so ask yourself why they cant recruit the required pilots.

"Again, perhaps, if you are so unhappy, you should just tender your resignations and go to work for my prior employer. I'd be happy to give you all the contact details...."

Dont be silly Phill. As we agreed, this is about perspective and whereas I support your right to try and improve your lot by getting the same as mainline we also have the right to fight to maintain our contracts and to vigorously oppose the daylight thievery that has gone on in the last couple of years.

SIA badly need more pilots right now just to replace the leavers and to cover the normal annual expansion. If the rights to fly the SYD/MEL to LAX come off they will need many more. They are running low on ideas how to maintain the low salary and ravaged contract. One way is to raise the retirement age which is the present hot potato but after that something will have to give so long as we dont have another SARS or Asama.

[Rockhound]

I knew I should have kept my trap shut.

Hicirrus

Actually, my post wasn't meant to be a wind-up. I genuinely believe that an SQ pilot may feel more secure than many a highly-paid US pilot flying for a company that is struggling to stay out of bankruptcy court.
I'm a scientist and not familiar with MBA-type and human resources jargon but I understand your point about satisfiers/motivators and dissatisfiers. During my career, I was blessed with much job satisfaction arising from my workwith a government scientific organization, which provided me with good support and the research tools I needed but not an overly generous salary (although pension benefits are good). The organization I worked for was world-renowned in its field and its scientific staff enjoyed a certain esprit de corps.
I know full well that a pilot's life in SIA is far from a bed of roses. Pay, for example, is considerably below the average for a major airline and you know that I have even managed to express my views on that topic in the more progressive SIN print media, as well as in this forum.
Still, I'm hoping that there is still an element of
esprit de corps among you SQ pilots (I'm sure there was much more of it in the past) and a certain pride in flying for an airline of high repute.

Millerscrt

I can't help but feel it's an exaggeration to ascribe SIA's profits and ability to maintain a modern fleet to the savings incurred by paying low wages.

Well, I think I've said (more than) enough about a subject of which I really don't know a hell of a lot - but which interests me strangely.

Rockhound

[jstars2]

Hey Rockhound, you are joking aren’t you, when you write “Still, I'm hoping that there is still an element of esprit de corps among you SQ pilots (I'm sure there was much more of it in the past) and a certain pride in flying for an airline of high repute”?

I actually don’t know of any SQ ex-pat pilots who don’t share a common derision of the airline and a slight sense of shame that we’ve all been stupid enough to get ourselves sucked into and committed to what on the outside looks like a super efficient, professional outfit but which insiders occasionally liken to a glorified whelk stall.

We don’t actually do esprit de corps in SQ. We just grit our teeth, loath the b*st**ds who set policy and pay rates and look forward to the day we can leave.

Meanwhile, despite the suggestions of the dreamers and outside commentators, we cannot just up-sticks and leave – we are committed to bonds, bank-guarantees, rental contracts, car hire purchase, money owed by SQ (which you can kiss goodbye to if you leave before time) and childrens’ education – you know, the kind of things that middle-class, mature professionals take seriously and which vulnerability is exploited in spades by all from Minister Mentor downwards, who get away with it because this particular 1963 Monopoly game called the Republic of Singapore had all the Chance, Community Chest and Property Deeds dealt to Lee Kuan Yew from day one and all continue to be held by him to this day!

[speedtwoten]

if anybody can tell about career in SinCargo or SIA, how long one can move from right to left specially in SinCargo, how about direct entry F/O rated on B744 with more 3000 hrs on type, or do they follow seniority system:)

[highcirrus]

The tortuously “negotiated” (ie imposed) 2005 Collective Agreement, just published, indicates a new salary range that includes a revised top salary for B747-400 captains, of S$16,500.

To date, I have not heard any cries of outrage from the august and sizeable group in receipt of salaries in this part of the range and which I seem to remember, peaked somewhere in the region of S$22,000.

Does this mean that this band of pilots, many of whose members are in the Alpa-S Ex Co negotiating team, have taken an instant and sizeable pay cut or has another accommodation been found?

[Fly3]

A new accommodation was found I believe. The difference between their present salary and the new (lower) top scale will be paid as a seperate "allowance" so they will not be out of pocket.

[jstars2]

So the Alpa-S Ex-Co has been quite happy to take this separate "allowance" so as not to sustain any pay cut for themselves, in return for quietly “selling their members down the river”, by accepting the crock of sh*t that the new CA represents and the pay-cuts it contains?

This also must have been why they raised not a finger on behalf of the ex-pat pilots (who cannot be Ex-Co members) who’ve just seen a degradation of both housing and school allowance and have also lost the pilot provident fund.

Nauseated? Absolutely. Surprised? Give me a break! What little people.

[Gypsy]

There is always a lot of negative stuff about SIA but so as we can judge for ourselves can someone please say in simple terms what the deal is. So for an SIA B777 Capt what is: -

1, Basic per mth
2, Housing per mth (can you use it to buy or only rent)
3, Schooling per mth
4, Flt Duty pay
5, Per Diem
6, Any other mthly income and any annual/end of contract bonus

Do you get your leave and how many days off in SIN per mth do you have.

Thks in anticipation

[Anotherpost75]

I find it quite astounding that there has been so little response from SQ pilots to the information contained in the 20 March post of Fly3 that “the difference between their present salary and the new (lower) top scale will be paid as a separate "allowance" so they will not be out of pocket”.

Do they not believe the allegation or don’t they care? Quite extraordinary passiveness that I’ve certainly never encountered in airlines I’ve ever worked for.

[Old Smokey]

This will be a simple post in the midst of numerous posts made by others who are highly politically aware. My strengths are in the technical field, and that's where I've concentrated my effort, accepting the rewards of the politically alert and active. To those who have worked so hard on my behalf, not without casualty, I offer my sincere thanks.

I was always a "Company" man, both in SIA and my previous employer, my company could do no wrong. I believed in a fair system of give and take, I went the extra mile for them when necessary, and they in turn were most helpful in going their extra mile for me if I encountered a problem. That always worked out - In the past! Now, belatedly, I realise that a fair system of give and take belongs with honourable people, and SIA is no longer an honourable organisation.

I do not speak disparigingly here of our Fleet management. In my own fleet (B777) from the Chief Pilot down to the most humble Supervisory Captain, we could not wish for a more decent and honourable group of people in ANY organisation. It is an extremely pleasant experience in working in such a non threatening environment. Pilots from other fleets say much the same thing. There is an abundance of 'honour' amongst fleet management. The same cannot be said for the blood suckers at higher levels.

Following SARS, we all gave, in the company's interest, they happily took what we gave. The economic impact of SARS was over within about 3 months, but still, the salary cut went on to the present day, amidst huge profits. How nice of us to subsidise their profit. And now, it's our turn to take, and we wait and we wait and we wait. Even if the 'refund' arrived tomorrow, it's much much too late. SARS is no longer a factor, it has not been for a very long time.

If I were much younger, my footsteps would be amongst those leaving for greener (sandier) pastures, but at my age this is not an option, nor is much else. It would sadden me to go (if I could) because SIA is a truly wonderful airline to work for. I'm here for the duration.

Even with all of their other warts and blemishes, there are still a reasonable number of fairly honourable airlines around. SIA is not one of them.

Now, the minnow is leaving the pond, I'll hand the forum back to the sharks.

Regards,

Old Smokey

[411A]

Having worked for SQ a very long time ago, I notice that not much has changed.

SQ can be broadly described as...

1. A stepping stone for pilots wanting to be trained on newer equipment, then moving on to another airline, for better pay.

2. The same as above, except those direct entry Captains, that need more command hours, to move to another airline...for better pay.

3. Captains from another airline, who may have retired early or, not liking the management 'style' at their former, decided to give SQ a try, just for a change of pace.

4. In the case of First Officers, new guys who just may need that break...so as to later move on to better salary.

Notice that three of the four points above included...move on to another airline.

Yes, not much has changed in the twenty five years since I was there...and it ain't likely too, either.

In fact, it appears to have gone down hill rather drastically...hardly surprising either, considering the past/present govt attitudes/policies.

[Laikim Liklik Susu]

Oh my Gawd! Old Smokey said that he was handing the forum back to the sharks, and we get JAWS!

Good to see you 411A, keep on firing.

[Kaptin M]

Unfortunately, Old Smokey, it seems that this management greed syndrome is an almost worldwide plague on many airlines at the present.
Airlines are being burdened with excessive numbers of overpaid, non-revenue producing "managers", whose ONLY method of justifying their bloated income is to screw other employees' conditions.

411A, your observations of a quarter of a century ago may have been correct ( I wonder if you were one of the pilots on the MSA B707 that I flew on, as kid, from Hong Kong to SIN, and then SIN to PER, in 1970?), however, SQ moved on to become a RESPECTED, CAREER AIRLINE offering reasonably good conditions during the early - mid 1990's, when your's truly was there.
My experience there (in SQ) was enjoyable - although, as is usual, this was not the case with all the pilots - as was living in Singapore.
As Old Smokey states, "I believed in a fair system of give and take, I went the extra mile for them when necessary, and they in turn were most helpful in going their extra mile for me if I encountered a problem.", and I think that was generally the majority prevailing opinion.

However, friends I had - who remained there, following my departure - told me that the airline changed. These were friends who, similar to O S, enjoyed being there, but subsequently looked forward to the day they could leave, either due to age retirement, or by changing employers, thanks to these non-revenue producing, greedy managers.
The foresight of these nrpm's is truly limited, because although they might save a few pennies in the short term, the longer term impact is going to cost the companies a LOT MORE than any savings they make now.
Why?
For the reason that they are destroying any "goodwill" that existed with the majority of the employees - the same "goodwill" and "company spirit" that ensures many employees are actually HAPPY to work for an employer for a little LESS, when they are HAPPY in that employ.
An airline is not only a collection of aeroplanes, check-in desks, pushback tugs, and conveyor belts. It is PEOPLE that unite the company to make the working environment the face of the airline.
Treat the PEOPLE badly, and it will eventually be reflected in the airline's bottom line.

It's a shame to see Singapore Airlines being sent down the gurgler by the greed of a (relative) few.

[Old Smokey]

Thank you Kaptin M, for putting into words that which I would find difficult to verbalise.

In reading the last line of your post, I'm not so sure that SIA is going down the gurgler, but they do seem hell-bent on a plummet towards the ordinary.

It's true, I was always willing to work for a little less, when the trade-off was to work for an excellent and very stable organisation with a high profit motive, thus ensuring the viability of their own, and my future. Unfortunately, profit has become the ONLY motive. The residual quality is still there, but steadily eroding. From a selfish point of view, I can extrapolate this rate of erosion of quality to just about see me through to retirement (which I do not look forward to). I sympathise with those younger than me, they will never see the halcyon days that I did.

SIA is wonderfully in 'the black', good for them, I am strongly philosophically aligned with the ethos of a good profit in return for a good service. In the past, SIA made good profits from external sources, i.e. the generation of new business, good market strategy in the marketplace etc. But something changed......

SIA still makes good profits from external sources, but in the new management style of maximising profit at any cost, found that they could maximise them even further from within by consuming it's own body and soul, and that they did to the very people who made it all possible - their staff.

In medical terms, a body which is consuming itself has a CANCER, and for a body to survive, the cancer must be excised.

I call it cancer, you call them non-revenue producing managers.

Old Smokey

[highcirrus]

That’s a very good couple of posts Old Smokey, you’re right on the nail. Please keep then up.

What I have privately been thinking of as “an ever tightening spiral of greed” when categorizing Singapore Airlines’ emergent approach to corporate governance, under the relatively recent overall stewardship of Lee Kuan Yew’s daughter-in-law, Lee Ho Ching (CEO, Temasek Holdings) and the Flt Ops stewardship of armchair general Bey LG (little god), you cleverly metaphorize as a cancerous body “which is consuming itself”.

For the “body to survive”, therefore, which part of the cancer must be excised?

[In the slot]

It is interesting to note some of the statements being made. No doubt there are some people reasonably happy at SIA, or maybe are not happy, but do not feel it is worth the upheavel to move themselves and their families, maybe to have an additional 10% in the bank, and be able to drive a mercedes in the middle east!!

I know many pilots around the world who earn FAR less than SQ guys for flying similar equipment.......this is after putting in bonuses (13 month and profit share) and taking out a maximum of 22% tax at the highest level.......What counts is what you can save for a similar standard of living, and hours of work somewhere else.

The company's actions have been very heavy handed, over-reactionary, and certainly lacking in integrity, and morale is not good, this is all correct. Additionally, all this is being done needlessly in the light of excellent financial results. Contracts and conditions are constantly chaging, and the company is certainly de grading its standing as an employer.

However, I know pilots from American majors who have moved to other airlines due to imminent retrenchment at home, or airline bankruptcy. I know first officers who wait 6 or 7 years for a narrowbody command with a bad basing, with no chance of a widebody command for many years after that.

I know pilots who fly 4 sectors a day, 5 days a week, who have to take their own food on board!

Its all down to what you want......I know that people who say that QF earn much more, are wrong. I have mates at QF, who after Aussie tax, earn less than me! And the cost of living in Oz has sky rocketted.

Mention has been made of 7 F/O's going to EK from SIA......have they read the EK forums on this site???? They may be shaking in their boots?? I know captains who went to EK as well........and they are by no means happy there!!!!

Dragon Air for those who want money......a few other contracts in Vietnam maybe.........apart from that, unless you are a well established guy in one of the traditional majors in europ or the USA, you are gonna have to decide if you would rather post your distaste under the Far East or the Middle East forums, because they are all going the same way! Check EK complaints about wage cuts and duty times/sickness.

Good luck to those who stay........good luck to those who go......good luck to those who come! Its all down to what is most important in your life, because wherever you go, there are gonna be major sacrifices and frustrations in some areas of yourexistence, and all airline management know that!

[411A]

...and some managements (SQ for example) will exploit this to the hilt.

However, it will bite them in the a@@ at some point, and my thinking...not all that far in the future.:E :E

[jstars2]

Talking of General Bey LG (little god), I like the story, currently going the rounds, of him talking at (as opposed to listening to) a group of ex-pat pilots corralled at a recent “tea party”.

To score some point, LG triumphantly pointed out that he could get three Bangladeshi captains for the price of one ex-pat SQ captain.

The momentary silence was followed by the swift rejoinder that SQ could get three Bangladeshi generals for the price of a Singaporean one and, moreover, they’d be proper ones, not comic opera armchair ones!

[CDRW]

Yes jstars2 - think that was a year or two ago - did cause a chuckle tho, and I think that to this day there are no Bangladeshi pilots in SIA - well certainly not in the numbers that the arm chair general would want!

Old Smokey - wonderful description of how the company is slowly going down the pan of life. And our CEO still continues to forecast gloom and doom in the long term for the airline, unless there is major restructuring of renumeration! Please. As if there has not been enough "renumeration restructuring" - most of us would call it contract breaking.

Would dearly like to ask, in the next pilots meeting, if the upper management consider SIA to be an honourable company. Even they may find it hard to give a positive reply.:p

[Omark44]

Underlying the obvious moves by SIA management to continually erode the T & Cs of pilots is one man. Lee Kwan Yew hates the pilot workforce and has done ever since they adopted some industrial action over twenty years ago. Recent events that brought about a vote of no confidence in the ALPS(S) leaders simply exacerbated the situation and the sacking and deportation of Capt. Ryan Goh was done just to show who was really the boss.

The vote of no confidence also served to reawake LKYs determination to marginalise and minimise the status of pilot in SIA and what better way to do this than attack their rice bowl and take away their money?

Not to mention officially downgrading the job of pilot to one of skilled labour, (check with the Ministry of Manpower!), and delisting it in Singapore as a profession!!!

All the time that LKY is alive the CEO and anyone else that acts to further disenfranchise the SIA pilot will have his blessing, God only knows what his son will do after the old man is gone.

[CDRW]

Omark44 - went onto the MoM website but could not find the relevant page that gives any information on the stauts of "Pilots" - but if it is true, and a pilot is now a "Skilled Labourer" just think of the implications - first to mind is the scolding we got from the CP 777 about reading our rosters correctly and not being late or miss reading the 4th amendment to a flight!! After all we are all "professionals" in our profession so this sort of thing really does reflect badly on all of us! Ha. !

[lineupandwait]

Blame it on the stock market. Profits need to increase each quarter, the "nrpms" even though they are "nrpms" need to drive this. They don't have an aviation passion, it's just business - all for the share holder which includes them. It's the way all listed companies are going, employees are all pi$$ed off while execs cash in on their stock. It's just the way it is now and will always be, just enjoy the flying and life.

[John Barnes]

Now if it is so bad how can you explain that I have several friends, with more than 12 years of employement with SQ, that only work eleven days a month ( Yes 11 days) on the 345 and make in excess of 25000 Sin dollars a month net!!!!!
This must be the best flying job in the world, since they spent half of their flying time in the bunk!!!
I wish I could have a job like that.

[millerscourt]

John Barnes

You pose the question if it is so bad etc etc re your friends on the A345.

You have also answered the question namely cos they are all over 12 years in the company and got regular 6% annual Service increments and also the extra for long duty hours.

We were not talking about how many days they work cos they are a very small minority but about SQ changing the contract.

Why do you think Armchair General B LG has changed the top scales to the new CA? He knows that expats are not going to leave in any large numbers as other Airlines like EK are tightening the screws so there is nowhere else to go in reality. He knows that, as he also knows that SQ is still an attractive job for some still. Look at RBA, if people are joining SQ from RBA it just shows how bad it is there, not how good SQ is.

[Kaptin M]

John Barnes, you need to ask the schedulers at SQ that question.
Pilots don't (generally) formulate their own schedules - that is left to the rostering and Fleet Planning department in each airline.

SQ will undoubtely still attract those pilots with the mindset of NEEDING to fly the biggest/newest/shiniest, rather than the more matured mentality of weighing up the financial & lifestyle issues. And, as In the slot points out, there are always going to be some pilots who are willing, or forced into taking work with companies that others avoid.
But as the pilot shortage increases, the lower-paying companies have already started hiking their salaries, to try to retain/attract pilots.

The nrpm's have painted themselves into what is going to become an upward wage spiral corner, because of their (to quote B.Mac) "shabby treatment of pilots".

Does SQ (or any other airline) really believe that other airlines are NOT going to dangle bigger carrots to attract pilots, when the alternative is to park aircraft and cancel flights, because they are UNABLE to crew them?
Pilots who feel they "belong" to a company don't (in the main) worry about checking the "jobs available" columns.
Those who believe they are unwanted or "abused" will sell their experience to the highest bidder!

And, as 411A notes, this time is "not all that far in the future." - and from comments here, it would seem that an elite few within SIA are expediting the process.

[John Barnes]

I see your point and realise that SQ is defenitely not the best job, but again these more senior guys ,and only on the 345, can not complain and have it made as long as that fleet will excist.

[Kaptin M]

Yes, you're correct, JB, and I'm certain those guys are also hoping that they can retain what they have achieved, and undoubtedly consider themselves fortunate to be where they are - thanks to SQ.
Wouldn't YOU, if you were in their position?!

By all means envy them, but don't begrudge fellow pilots something they have gained FAIRLY, within the system.
It was obviously a case of "being in the right spot, at the right time" - either by good management or by good luck :ok:

[Rockhound]

Hey JB,
Get over it! I figure those A345 drivers deserve generous compensation for the excruciating boredom of flying between just three airports: SIN-LAX...LAX-SIN...SIN-EWR...EWR-SIN...SIN-EWR...EWR-SIN...SIN-LAX...LAX-SIN. With hardly ever a polar routing to break the monotony. Borrrrrrrrrrrring!!!
Happy landings!
Rockhound;)

[jstars2]

Omark44

Re Your post of 28 March

“Officially downgrading the job of pilot to one of skilled labour and delisting it in Singapore as a profession”.

Maybe Singapore Airlines recruiters need to get up to speed here. As I understand it, 98% of their cadet pilot entrants are degree holders. Surely something of a qualification overkill to meet a “skilled labour” requirement?

Similarly, has anyone informed Breitling (who not so long ago produced a limited edition watch for the professionals of Alpa-S) that their latest ad, featuring the words of John Travolta (5000hrs TT, 400hrs p.a. in his own B707/G2 aircraft), “Profession: Pilot, Career: Actor” now carries zero relevance and that it should read “Skilled Labour Category: Pilot”, when read in Singapore.

I assume that very shortly we will cease logging into Pprune when in Singapore and be required to access the Skilled Labour Rumour Network?

What a bl**dy ridiculous place!

[knackeredII]

What's bl**dy ridiculous is that we're all carrying on about something we haven't even confirmed yet, ie. the classification of Pilot as skilled labour.

[Omark44]

Friend of mine went for the standard 'interview' when he applied for permission to marry a local girl.
During the interview the lady most concerned about equality of qualifications, on glancing through his papers, looked up in shock and said, "but you don't have a degree!"
Friend duly pointed out that he did have an ATPL, issued in the UK and that, in the UK, this wasn't considered to be at all bad, as professional qualifications go,
Lady then said, "Oh well, here in Singapore we don't regard being a pilot as a profession, it is considered skilled labour"
For totally unconnected reasons the wedding never took place!

[Farside]

Rockhound you got that right. It is sooooo boring to get a good paycheck, fly 4 sectors with no positioning, deadheading or other disruptions, and then have the rest of the month off. ( To be realy honest fly 1 sector and deputy dog for the other 3) In other words 20 days to do my own things. Things that I realy like. And having done this job for the last 40 years I don't see any difference in the ILS into Dacca or the one into New York for that matter. But I take it that you are a real enthousiatic driver with a long career ahead, building up some sectors. Then I can understand your boredom, but Rockhound I have been there, got the T-Shirt, and must be a real bore ( At least that's what my wife claims) because I love this lifestyle. You can't call it a job!!!!

[Rockhound]

Farside,
Long time no hear. Glad to see you're still around, after 40 years yet. Sounds to me like you're one of those guys who makes John B turn green with envy. All I can drive is a car but, sure, even I know there's no real difference between flying into SFO and FCO. But what about all the fun things you can do during layovers at different places in different countries? I reckon that's one of the perks for you SQ longhaulers. Trouble is, you guys get too jaded (perhaps understandably) while some of us enthusiasts, even after hundreds of hours of bush flying as pax in helicopters, Twin Otters and the like (I'm a geologist, in the sunset days of my career), as well as a very modest number (compared to yours) of scheduled flights, still get a thrill out of simply "getting there", not to speak of visiting other countries and experiencing other cultures. Just remember that, as you're shifting uneasily in your seat trying to avoid a sore you-know-what while grinding it out for 18 hours over the Pacific, one or two of the SLF in the back are having the time of their lives.
Bit off-topic, I know - sorry. Nice to hear from you.
Rockhound

[Farside]

Hello Rockhound
Good to see you too. Yes we are all getting a little jaded after a long flying carreer. The parties enroute have faded as well since the age of the real party going cabin crew always remains in the late twenty early thirty figures where after they leave for greener pastures.
We however hang in for the ride but get at a point where we are defenitely too old to show up in the disco. ( I think they call it clubbing these days)
I have also seen too many AIDS cases in the job ( Airline Induced Divorce Syndrom) and at the end of the day you want to come back to a happy home. The only way to do that is being a bore enroute. Yes I too miss the dark and gloomy nights with one ADF, a navigator, engineer, and grumpy captain.
After the wild years in the Airforce I worked for a charter outfit which was more or less the extension of the Airforce and man it was wild. As I remember it ,it was one big party. The flying has changed enormously, not always for the better, but I must say that there are new chalanges (hope spelled that correct) with this ULR flying that are interesting and nice to be part of. And if I could do it all over again I wouldn't change a thing. But I must admit that I envy your Bushflying experiences, because that must at the end of the day be the real macCoy!!! Bye for now Rockhound, hope to see one of these days.

[Chambudzi]

Our newboy on the block Phil Squares has gone very quiet on this thread lately. No more talking up the contract and recruiting for SQ Cargo.
Rumour has it that he had a little brush with HR in Cargo and reality has set in. No more changes to the contract for the better and definitely no ID 90s or Zonal pricing tickets.
Cant say you werent warned but commiserations all the same.

[highcirrus]

Phil Squares

Sorry that the reality of employment with Singapore Airlines seems to have hit you (squarely?) between the eyes. However, we’ve all at some stage or other had the same wake-up dose of cold water.

You might also heed the words of mk1eyeball on another thread, to the effect that “saving senior pilot salary scales above $ 16.5K/mth was a disgrace and in complete contradiction of efficiency savings. (An) absolute betrayal to the rest of you all and a disgusting achievement by your so called representative body (Alpa-S).DISGRACEFUL.”


Not only is the SQ set-up there to deny you the smallest joy of existence whilst earning a living in this vale of tears but your designated representatives will happily shaft you at the drop of a hat.

Hope you came type rated and have not entered into five years of bonded servitude! The line to leave starts halfway round the next bock but one!

[millerscourt]

High Cirrus

Phil Squares is ex Air Atlanta which explains why up to now he has been waxing lyrical about SQ Cargo. For the same reason that RBA Captains are joining SQ it merely shows how bad those Airlines are to work for and not how good SQ is.

Now that he knows that Mailine get 4 ID90's pa whereas SQ Cargo get none plus other differences in contract to Mainline too numerous to mention has caused him perhaps to reflect!! Just because the Basic in SQ Cargo is close to Mainline does not make the total package the same as Phil would like to believe. Even Mainline, unless on many service increments is no longer much cop any more unless from a country where the Sing$$$ still buys something worthwhile.

[Phil Squares]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I have been on annual leave (cancelled from last year). Haven't even researched the issue of ID90s. However, my reference was from a current SQ Capt who looked at the T&C as he joined last year. I could be wrong, and if I am, I will set the record straight.

And yes, I did work at Air Atlanta. But the question is when? So, in trying to keep this board confidential and anonymous why don't we stop the "detective" work. Remember, it works both ways.

However, I suggest before you go trying to identify anyone you might atleast afford them a "heads up".

Anyhow, I am still on annual leave, out of Singapore. So, I suggest you recheck your "sources"!

[millerscourt]

Phil Sorry but not trying to do any detective work but merely pointing out where one has been employed in the past affects how you find SQ's T &C's.

Any job is better than no job. Enjoy your leave ( Cancelled from last year !!) Great company this SQ isn't it? Then again you told us you got no leave in your last Airline so Yes by comparison SQ Cargo is great. It all depends whether you compare like with like and for some I can well see that SQ cargo is still an attractive option. Just illustrates how T &C's are slipping throughout the Airline Industry which is depressing.

[Phil Squares]

Millerscourt,

I do agree. However, I am sure people in the 4th floor read what is posted here. It's a small company and it's easy to figure out just who is who. I guess, I don't think people need any help trying to put 2 and 2 together. That's all.

Cheers

[CDRW]

Phil, what absolute tosh! SQ a small company! Haha - good one - what next?

[Chambudzi]

Quite right CDRW. If we are small Id like to see a big airline. We must be pushing 1500 pilots and there must be over 400 on the 744 alone. Anyway we managed to get our 'sunny' Phil to respond while on his belated leave. Actually Phil you gave yourself away sometime ago and there is no need to "check sources". I wont explain as it will only further mess with your anonymity.
Anyway Phil you missed a great fleet meeting. Top managers expalined it all and left me with a warm glow knowing that we will get a happy bonus and we will continue to create good profits into the future. I then trebled the warm glow with 'Tiger' at company expense. No other airline does that for you. Im staying but will continue to moan on pprune.

[jstars2]

Phil Squares

Seems to be a resurgence of interest in SIA Cargo by ill advised souls around the world, following the recent ad in Flight International.

In light of all that has been written over the past years in respect of SIA’s consistent contempt for the niceties of sticking to the pilot employment contract and not arbitrarily cutting remuneration packages in knee-jerk reaction to short lived economic situations, perhaps you could cast light, as a fairly recently joined and from what we can gather, enthusiastic supporter of a company from which us more experienced and jaundiced hands seek only to escape its institutionalized bonded servitude.

Can you advise your potential ingénue colleagues that SIA Cargo is indeed a good and fair deal for both parties, or are you now of the majority view that you are used, abused, lied to and completely powerless in your negotiations with and representations to a company who, until the next major manning crisis, “frankly, doesn’t give a damn”?

[Phil Squares]

jstars2

The simple fact is, I don't give a damn. People are adults, they can do what they want. Everyone has his/her opinion.

And of course everyone knows what they say about opinions; they're like a**holes, everyone has one and they all stink.

[linksys]

Just remember
298T is a common landing weight. :O

[kk pilot]

anyone with recent experience care to re-visit this?