GB latest ,get this.

[MAGIC2]

Word is on the street GB Airways pilots have been given a 4.0% pay rise , and command courses are two a penny. I sit at A3 in a 1980's 737 , and the new shinny A321 next to me is painted in my employers colours. Can anyone explain what the hell is going on ?

[Maxfli]

It is cheaper to expand franchises than the main operation.

Just wait to see what happens when the new guy gets into town.

[flt_lt_w_mitty]

Magic - I suspect you are about to be told. I also suspect the answer will not be to your liking. Among those who will post will be GB pilots, others with far less knowledge will join in. You would have been better questioning your union. Your 'Scope' clause was driven through by a large bus, the gates left open for them by your union reps. Have a look around. 'Smell the coffee' as they say. The arrival of WW will also trouble you.

You may not be sitting at A3 much longer. Perhaps you joined the wrong company?

[Quidnunc]

Magic.

I don't understand your problem. What's the big deal between sitting in a 80s' 737 and a 90s' / naughties 321? Do you think that a nice big polished instrument is the status symbol you need?

From your post I think I am in the same position as you with the same employer (BA). I get the impression that the GB pilots are a happy bunch. Are you not also happy with your lot at BA? GB may have some things that we don't, but we have some thing they don't (multiple bases, LH / SH to name but two).

You're probably the type of guy who buys a new car every three years and then polishes it every week. There are bigger things in life!

[MarkD]

quidnunc

I think the point is not 737 v 321 but that with Willie's track record at EI, Toulouse will be sending replacements for said 737, and not for Magic to fly but the guy in the BA livery beside him.

[Quidnunc]

1. Who mentioned Willie? Not Magic, and not me.

2. Quote: "Toulouse will be sending replacements for said 737, and not for Magic to fly but the guy in the BA livery beside him".

Boo-hoo. So what? See previous post.

[tunneler]

So you're jealous about GB expanding, being paid and flying newer aircraft in "your" colours??

Get a grip pal, GB pilots work pretty hard, LGW-PFO-LGW interest you at all? GB make BA a lot of money on routes that BA themselves couldn't make a profit from because of the rediculous overheads BA has.

Everyone is happy at GB - but none of us will get a final salary pension, we dont clear a grand a month in allowances (sweeping generalisation - sorry) and we have to work long hours.

Just because we have some new toys and are actively expanding doesnt give you the right to spit the dummy.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Magic - GB is the future for the national carrier and you are the past. GB are a fantastic company whose only failing is to be beholden to BA. Command courses are not 'two a penny' - you wait on the seniority list for like them just like you lot. The reason that command courses are appearing at GB and not BA is that GB is expanding and BA is not. All you had to do was take a job offer from GB (if you could get one!) instead of the one BA gave you and wait your turn. Instead of whining about GB, BA pilots should wake up to the harsh reality that it is only the likes of GB that have any possible chance against the Orange Order. GB are quietly and efficiently getting on with their fight for market share in a vicious marketplace while the BA dinosaurs worry about the range of choice on the cheeseboard!

The tragedy is that many BA pilots would sooner see a route go to easyJet than GB. Well you will get your wish because next time you sit at A3, have a look at the colour of the aircraft beside you. The chances are it will be orange and it will be going to one of your destinations! Wait another year or so and you will not have to worry because the same orange aircraft will still be going to your destination but you will have pulled off the route because you could no longer compete. Now there is a franchise that could have fought on equal terms with easyJet - ah yes it is called GB Airways!

[ShortfinalFred]

NSF you aren't bitter and twisted are you - not!

Where would GB be without the BA franchise? Tinpot nothing with a few routes to spain etc - no brand neither fish (scheduled) nor fowl (charter) nor loco - you'd be stuffed mate, and with attitude like yours you darn well deserve to be you @@@@

D'ya think pilots at BA invent the ludicrous overheads abd latte-sipping bullc'@@p at WATERWORLD? No, nor do I.

Stop whinging. If you wanted as defined benefit final salary pension you knew who to join but were too busy in the RAF RN whatever. Anyodhow I doubt we'll have it when we retire anyway

[bluepilot]

I find this thread breathtaking.

BA and GB are together making BA viable, its a harsh world out there, without GB BA could not PROFIT on the routes GB flies, equally GB benifits from the BA branding, also BA profits from the interline traffic supplied to its longhaul routes keeping BA pilots in work.

The bitterness of this thread is dreadful, GB and BA working together is a good thing for the business, encourage each other and you will both benefit.

[Biggles Flies Undone]

GB are a fantastic company whose only failing is to be beholden to BA.

I'd like to add another to that list. I recently did two 4-hour sectors with GB - nice aircraft, good flights, zero IFE, awful food and rubbish cabin service. I shan't bother again if there's an option.

[ecj]

Since GB are a franchise operator, they will pay BA for the privilege.

Would it be correct in assuming that both parties benefit from this arrangement?

Lower operating costs must be a key ingredient to be able to compete in today's market place.
Working smarter, not harder.

The SLF have never had it as good, and market forces will determine to outcome of the ongoing struggle between operators.

Evolution will bring success: stagnate at your peril...


:cool:

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Hi Shortfinal Fred, just in case you have picked up the wrong end of the stick I do not in fact work for either BA or GB - I fly for easyJet (and no, I have never applied for BA). I am however extremely familiar with GB and laugh at the foolishness of BA pilots who see GB as the 'enemy within'. Nothing could be further from the truth - you guys are in a serious fight with the likes of easyJet.

The latest pax figures out this week show that easyJet carried 26.4 million pax (Feb-Feb rolling tally) this last year which is almost certainly more that BA did on their European flights. Instead of worrying about GB you should be working hand in glove with them to fight off easyJet et al. It obviously suits us handsomely to see such bickering - nevertheless I cannot help but see the irony of this misguided attitude towards a great company working hard on your behalf.

[HZ123]

Well said NSF some of our crews are paronoid about GB and any others that thay see as a threat. If we at BA spent as much time concerning ourselves with getting on with our work as concerning ourselves with the likes of GB,we would have no problems with any competition.

Having had many duty flights with GB I have always found service satisfactory. it may be that the service was a reflection of the many changes that BA and its partners are going thru. Reduced catering levels is one of them .

[Torquelink]

Biggles - the food may have been "awful" (as is most airborne food) but at least you didn't pay extra for it - or for your booze. Plus you got an allocated seat, may have picked up AirMiles and, probably got a fare on the sector that was less than anyone else's. All in all I'd say that GB do their punters - and BA - proud (and no, I don't work for them).
:D

[Biggles Flies Undone]

I don’t want to get this thread off topic, but I would like to respond, Torquelink.

Agreed most Y class food is average at best but this was very poor (unfortunately I’ve eaten a lot of Y class food in the last few years and I do know the difference).

Free booze? Yes, the trolley came around once on each sector. I’d rather pay for it and not feel guilty about asking for another beer if I fancied one.

The fare? I paid £223 for LGW-LPA-LGW which I don’t consider cheap.

There was no film, no music and only a moving map display to watch. The rest of my party were on a First Choice package and they got films, music, good service and ‘quite nice’ food.

I don’t mind getting lo-co service for lo-co prices, but I think I got the worst of both worlds with GB.

[The Little Prince]

Before we were called BACX, we were a franchisee. We paid BA lots of money, operated lots of flights, and you guessed it, made lots of money.
Then BA changed their policy. They bought our LHR slots, and got an airline as well. Now we have replaced BAR, we are run by BA managers, (tugs forelock, salutes, faces Mecca and bows, makes sign of cross, and gets pot of vaseline ready whilst bending over.)
Guess what? Now we're wholly owned, we have made a loss since our first year of being part of the "World Class Company" that is Big Airways. We are patronised by their pilots, paid a lot less in real terms, and worst of all, have been ruled by the amazing Dental Floss man for several years. Let's hope WW likes the concept of franchising, (and profit!!) and lets us go to do our own thing.....er, are GB recruiting???:cool:

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Must get used to reading "WW" as Willie Walsh and not BMI Baby ...

[Mark Lewis]

Too right Shed-on-a-Pole! Also veryone referring to Eddington as RE keeps getting me confused with Aer Arann, particularly with the new Irish connection!

[hec7or]

franchising?

been there, done that, got the T shirt!

been ignored on the ramp by BA crew and been ignored in hotel lobbies and watched them walk past me with their noses in the air in the dispatchers office for I dared to fly a 1 11 in their colours!! shock horror!

and all the time while their petty contempt has been directed at the franchise companies and while their energies have been directed at protecting their commands and their colour sceme from those who play by the rules, the whole shorthaul route network has been torn away from them by the low costs who don't really care where the hot towels and the warm chicken salad go.

yawn!!

[sanook]

I've been following this thread with interest as I can't see the argument here. I am led to believe that the routes that GB operate are ones that BA can't profitably operate and so have given them to GB under the franchise. So GB pays BA a franchise fee and offer onward connections to BA ,whereas GB benefit from the brand. So why the bitterness? Concentrate on the big orange!

[Frank Poncherello]

I also hear that GB have taken on G-BUSJ (an old ex BCAL/BA A320),........... soon, they will have taken all BA short haul under their wing,.......

BA short haul might actually make some money then!!!

As for GB not taking FOs from BA for command training,....... its a separate company, and they would probably take a pay cut in order to fly left seat for GB,...... dont think there would be too many takers,.... and it might upset the unions too!!

FP

[ShortfinalFred]

If GB had to pay its true share of the BA overhead, it wouldn't make a profit, just as BACX found when it was taken in to the BA fold as a wholly-owned subsidiary.

The very great majority of the BA overhead has very little to do with pilot pay differentials and everything to do with overheads and working practises over which BA pilots have no control - even BA itself seems unable or unwilling to tackle them - perhaps WW will change that.

Most BA longhaul pilots fly 900 hours a year, shorthaul is up around 800 or so. I dont think we are that far out of touch with reality, and, for what its worth, the 'cheeseboard' went many years ago.

Most of us are concerned about easyjet and watch with interest their expansion. One of our ex-managers is amongst you.

I fly for a living. Of course my company's financial health is of vital interest to me. Would we, as BA pilots, like to compete effectively? Sure. Get rid of 100 anomalies I can name in the BA modus operandi, and then take a swathe through the job creation scheme that is our corporate HQ, Waterworld, and we could do just that.

I guess I fell into the well-laid trap that has BA affiliate pilots loathing us, us wary of them , and everyone adopting self-rightous attitudes to everyone else ("look - I wear a harsher horsehair shirt than you do") which leads to the the kind of downward spiral in all our working lives where, in some operators, "competition" has reached the stage of having to buy a glass of water from your employer company if you wish to hydrate on the flightdeck, and paying for your own sim conversions is the norm.

Heaven help the industry, and wannabes beware.

[In trim]

As a former employee of another former BA franchise airline, the above arguments are familiar to me.

Of course GB would not be as successful as they are now without the strength of the BA brand. This is/was true of all the franchise partners.

However, they do clearly demonstrate that it is possible to make money out of short-haul at LGW.....something many in Waterside, with head in sand, refuse to believe, yet continue to accept some of the ludicrous overheads associated with their own SH operation.

The GB operation is, of course, mutually beneficial. BA obtain their franchise fee, and other fees for provision of the many other services (reservations, yield control, etc.) plus a proportion of each seat sold, and also feed onto the BA longhaul network.....drastically diminished at LGW in recent years but nonetheless a key strength. If BA were to operate such feed routes themselves it would invariably be at a loss.

I am not blaming the flying community for BA's woes.......BA need to tackle head-office and ground-based costs. However, there are still, I'm afraid, many BA pilots with a "job for life" mentality who continue to ignore the harsh reality of what's going on outside their cockpit window.......the fact that the apron at LGW is progressively turning Orange. As someone commented previously, "wake up and smell the coffee" and recognise that GB at LGW could be the saviours of a BA presence, rather than the enemy.

[BBK]

Biggles: if you fly with BA LGW to Europe I think you'll find there isn't any IFE on the (ex DanAir) 737s. Nor hot meals, typically, it's a sandwich box and one drinks service.

In trim and NSF: Agree entirely.

ShortFinalFred: I think you're missing the point regarding overheads. GB, I suspect, has lower overheads because it runs a leaner operation than BA. Look at the Beehive, for example, would BA be able to run an operation of a comparable size from such a building. What about pensions? GB may have shiny new Airbuses but the pilots won't enjoy a Final salary scheme at age 55.

I'm not having a go at BA here, but I do feel that it's very easy for some at BA to fail to understand that BOTH BA and GB do well from the franchise arrangement. I sincerely don't hope so but if ever BA retreats from LGW shorthaul the beginning of the end began when you first heard: "Easy 123 request clearance to........"

[Jet A1]

Why is it that BA pilots always miss the Bigger picture ???

BALPA and BA pilots are not very happy with the GB expansion at MAN but hear that Senior Managers saw that one off.

Why be bitter chaps -- You guys don't even wave to the GB chaps at LGW/LHR anymore ??

And why get your knickers in a twist when you are told to follow the company A321 at LGW ???

[Capt Pit Bull]

Why is it that BA pilots always miss the Bigger picture ???

Why is it that some people make sweeping generalisations about BA Pilots?

Theres over 3,000 of us. Believe or not, some of us still have some tenuous grasp of reality.

CPB

[Captain Airclues]

Frank

"As for GB not taking FOs from BA for command training,....... its a separate company, and they would probably take a pay cut in order to fly left seat for GB,...... dont think there would be too many takers"

Perhaps you should tell that to the GSS F/O's.

Airclues

[AL GREGOR]

Interesting to see you guys metion poor food on flights.Here in the US you wont see much more than peanuts.:yuk:

[Jim Kirk]

Biggles

The average punter who had the choice, wouldn't fly BA. Cr@@p food, miserable staff, one drink, throw "dinner" at you and then off to the bunk. Don't be jealous matey, get a life. Don't worry about "them" flying in your colours,......... you'll soon be working for them.

[swashnob]

One point that has probably been missed by most.

These threads appear on a fairly regular basis with a few from BA 'discussing' the benefits of this and that with GB and visa versa, sometimes rather heatedly.

However, the guys 'in charge' who make the decisions are entirely happy with the franchise situation. They have regular meetings, audits, flight safety sharing systems to name some, that make the BA management chuffed to bits with GB and the way they fly the flag.

And from the other point of view, GB management are chuffed to bits with the way things are going, making money, opening bases and ordering more aircraft.

"Back scratching" and "Two to tango" are expressions that come to mind. If any pilot from either airline thinks that their say will influence any outcome in a significant way is rather deluded.

One last thing also is, RE and soon WW will, and always have dealt with the biggest problems first. The GB thing is far from the top of that list and by the look of things to come will not feature at the top of the agenda for some time.

Good luck to both sides, I think that they are both excellent setups that provide superb opportunities to both sets of pilots.

(And.......... no I'm not management!!)

[oscarh]

ShortfinalFred

You said:-
"If GB had to pay its true share of the BA overhead, it wouldn't make a profit just as BACX found when it was taken in to the BA fold as a wholly-owned subsidiary."

That, I'm afraid, says everything about fat BA overheads and how much BACX have been disadvantaged now they are unable to negotiate the going rate for handling with their new owners. A quick look at this would provide a perfect illustration to WW of inefficiencies, the solutions to which are painfully obvious in this particular case.

In my experience as a regular pasenger, GB are a pleasure to fly with, although this pleasure has been somewhat eroded since last year, when the catering was downgraded to the standard BA shorthaul fare. All day Deli indeed!

[waaf]

BBK makes an excellent point about pensions. As a BA retiree at 55 you can then get taken on by GB as flight crew and your pension will still be more than the GB crew that you are working with. Unrealistc ? I work in a small airline where we regularly employ ex BA pilots, the sweetie money they earn with us helps fuel their Jags which clog up the company car park !!

[fiftyfour]

In answer to the initial questions on the first post.

Yes the pay rise was 4.0% for this coming year starting in April. The private pension contribution from the company was raised from 10% salary to 14.5% and other small (RPI)rises to hourly allowances etc.
This was entirely due to a tracker pay system (which compares 6 equivalent airlines - Monarch and others) negotiated some years ago by BALPA through the solid membership of the pilots. The company got a good deal too - a contented workforce who get fair and competitive pay for the work they do.

Any reasonably qualified pilot can apply for the vacancies that come about. Only the better ones are recruited. There is no secret agenda, there is no PC, corporate mumbo jumbo or spin. Pilots (male and female) come from all sorts of airlines (and the forces too) at all sorts of ages. Many ex - BA pilots work for the airline. They tend to come at age 55 on retirement from BA and stay until 60, often on part time contracts. Some stay on after 60 as F/Os (due to flight restrictions in France). They seem to enjoy their time with GB, and I have never heard other pilots complain about their presence, flying abilities or commitment to work. Perhaps the only distinguishing feature that these pilots have, is their very expensive car in the company car park, presumably paid out of the fruits of a long career with BA mailine. The few exceptions, in smaller cars, are recovering from divorces.

So, Magic2, looking forward to seeing you - perhaps when you are 55. You might, by that time, find you move from a very shiny new Boeing Dreamliner with BA to sit in an old GB A321 with the latest cabin upgrade.
GB first started flying in 1931 , which makes it almost as old as Imperial Airways, and I'm sure GB will be around for many more years. It might not still be a BA Franchise by the time you join - that depends on big BA, the attitude of BA Balpa CC and of course the Gibraltar family that own GB. If Easyjet don't go bust over the next few years, it may even be as an Easyjet partner. Now that's bound to start a new thread.

[Outer Martyr]

What I fail to understand is that with the obvious imminent demise of BA shorthaul, why are they still recruiting loads of FOs for shorthaul LGW and LHR.
Can anyone explain?

[heebeegb]

Fiftyfour, some sense at last!!

[Barber's Pole Bob]

Why is it GB which is getting all the stick ? How about BMed ?? Not sure the Nigels fancy long-haul in an A320 ?!?

[In trim]

.........or layovers in some of the BMed destinations!!

[JackOffallTrades]

The reason BA are recruiting is because there is no demise of shorthaul at LHR or LGW. If there is then tell me why I am flying 90 hours a month.... In a nice shiny 321 with IFE (some times).

[Big Dog's]

I think that's because you are at LHR not LGW

[JackOffallTrades]

True. There always has been a greater feeling of stability at LHR. However rumours have been going around for many years about shutting down LGW and they all meant nothing.

Outer Martyr said "why are they still recruiting loads of FOs for shorthaul LGW and LHR.
Can anyone explain?".

Cos we need them is the simple answer!

[Jet A1]

You need them 'cos not many fancy jumping into dead man's shoes and waiting for nearly 20 years to get a command whilst watching their working conditions erode away in front of them.

[JackOffallTrades]

Dont fancy watching them erroded either.

Hopefully management (BA) will find it harder to recruit suitable pilots and the company will realise they have to play the game fairly.

It worries me that if other airlines judge/compare their pay scales with BA and BA conditions are erroded, the UK pilot profession will suffer. I say this because BA used to be seen as top dog in the UK for terms and conditions. Though now some low cost outfit has probably claimed that spot.

[Orangewing]

Well if some low cost has got that spot, it sure isnt easyjet !!

[Justbelowcap]

I read this topic with slight amusement having flown for BA for almost 33 years. You would almost think that the pay is now worse than ever.............well for new joiners it's completely the opposite. The pay for BA is better than ever for those at the bottom of the seniority list. The demise of allowances and the taking up of FHR plus TAFB pay has greatly evened up the distribution of variable pay. It's actually never been better for DEP's.

Time to command is making me grin too. If most people have a 30 year career in BA then the average time to command over a long period of time will be 15 years. This goes up and down over the years. It only seems yesterday to me that command time in BA was around 17 to 18years. Then it suddenly got very junior with LGW commands and all of a sudden people are upset not to get a command within seven years!! The average time to command will be the average length of career divided by two. This will fluctuate during any DEP's time in the airline. Don't get focused on time to command........just grab it when ever you can.

Anybody would think that BA was in a financial mess from the posters on this forum. They are actually the world most profitable airline for the second year running. The loco's have stimulated demand and in the long term have done a world of good for all the airlines. BA had certainly got VERY bloated, we needed the kick in the arse that MOL and Emirates has provided. And to be fair we are getting there...........still lots of fat to be trimmed but not, I suspect, from the flight crew. We are flying up to the legal max and can do no more.

The big difference is the pension.........but to counter that you will probably have the chance to work till your medical runs out. I suspect most will boost their pension by extending their career with part time working.

Take a step back from the doom merchants. More money than ever is being pumped into aviation, the investment into the infrastructure is staggering. Air travel is going to explode over the next few decades. Huge planes and small planes are all going to need pilots and there simply is not an ever lasting supply. The next few years might be tough but long term it's looking better than ever. Certainly better than the 1970's when I started.

Aeroplanes are much easier to operate now when they work but much more difficult to manage when they don't, such is the benefit/disadvantage of becoming more complex. Pilots fly less so consequently actually have to be better than ever. It's much more imporatnt to have natural talent these days. When I started everybody got there in the end because we practised all the time. The quality of the guys entering the airline seems to increase every day dispite what us older chaps might like to think. It's fun to be around such quick thinking pro's even if you get frustrated whilst I try to keep up.

I suspect the vast majority who post here are not actually pilots. In my experience in the thousands of bars down route crews naturally gel and there is no anomosity between airlines. No the common enemy is always the "management" and the only competition as the beer flows is who has got the worst examples.

[maxy101]

"I suspect the vast majority who post here are not actually pilots. In my experience in the thousands of bars down route crews naturally gel and there is no anomosity between airlines. No the common enemy is always the "management" and the only competition as the beer flows is who has got the worst examples." So true!!

[AdrianShaftsworthy]

Well said JustBelowCap. At last an accurate reflection of the reality in BA. For info I'm a relative 'new boy' in BA, (DEP 744, < 8yrs), but have a provisional SH command within the next trg year at LHR. Never had so much fun in my life!! Enjoy:D

[Cuban_8]

Justbelowcap,

The voice of reason speaks at last!!

I too am frequently amused by some of the posts I read wrt BA. My theory is that the majority of people who choose to post on such matters often have some sort of axe to grind, and thus we end up with threads full of unbalanced replies and opinions.

Stand back and look at the facts guy's. BA has changed over recent times, and will continue to do so. However, the overall conditions are still amongst the best, if not the best in the industry today. Period.

Regards,

Cuban_8