This is the cheapest way to get a JAA ATPL [Archive]

moochooser

9th Mar 2005, 18:48

I posted this information in another thread but the whole thing was deleted. I don't know why it disappeared so I will post it again. This is by far the cheapest way to get a JAA ATPL and hopefully it will stop the big schools in the UK stealing from people. £50,000 is an insane price to pay and it should be stopped.
Before I start I will just say that all those idiots who say standards are lower in the US are either trying to get you to enrol in their school or they are trying to justify the sickening amount of money they have spent. I used to instruct in Los Angeles and I have also flown a lot in the UK and can say that the standard of flying is the same. I would even be tempted to say that those who have flown in the US are better all around pilots because they have dealt with and been into very busy airspace on a daily basis. It is also far more interesting in the states, where in the UK would you ever get the chance to squeeze under the wingtip of a Virgin 747 in a PA-28 so you can depart first to avoid having to wait for wake turbulence to dissipate, nowhere is the answer to that.

Here is the cheapest route to get a JAA ATPL in easy steps.

(1) Go and get an FAA PPL US$ 3600

(2) Build time US$ 5000

(3) Get a FAA IR US$ 3700

(4) Get an FAA CPL US$ 1300

(5) Add multi IR to FAA CPL US$ 1800

Total us costs in GBP at current exchange rate: £8325

You will need to do the JAA ATPL writtens at some point so I would suggest converting the FAA PPL to JAA ASAP and then you can enrol in a distance-learning course. The conversion I think consists of some written exams and check ride, I have not looked into it as have not needed to do it but would be very very surprised if it cost more than GBP 500.

(6) Enrol with an ATPL distance-learning course GBP 1100

(7) Convert the FAA IR to JAA GBP 3500

(8) Convert the FAA CPL to JAA GBP 1000

(9) Do an MCC course GBP 1500

That has cost about 15500 pounds. THAT IS CORRECT GBP 15500.
Nowhere near £50,000. Is the name of where you trained worth that much? Going by the number of unemployed ex student of the big schools in the UK the answer is obviously no. If you do not believe this I am happy to give you details of the schools offering these courses at those prices. The only one I am not sure of is the conversion of a FAA PPL as have not had to do it. Paying £50,000 to become a very inexperienced person in a field that is very hard to get into is, as far as I can tell, insane. Just think, the money you save could get you a 737 and A300 type rating. I am against that sort of thing but surely you lot who say the name of the school means a lot can't deny that a holder of a frozen ATPL, with those type ratings, would stand a far better chance than a fresh graduate from one of the rip off UK schools. Just had a look at a leading UK school and their course is £56,500, absolute madness. I will be interested to see if this post also gets deleted like the last one.
:ok:

thereceiver2004

9th Mar 2005, 19:04

Quote:
(6) Enrol with an ATPL distance-learning course GBP 1100
(7) Convert the FAA IR to JAA GBP 3500
(8) Convert the FAA CPL to JAA GBP 1000
(9) Do an MCC course GBP 1500

in all my experience i have yet to find anyone who has converted an ICAO IR to a JAR IR for 3500. The test fee is 640quid, the ac hire about another 800quid and that is just for the test, let alone the required training before sitting the IR. (please remember to get a CPL/IR in the UK it must be a multi engine if you intend to join a flight crew of ME aircraft (SE commercial operations are not allowed at night here)

Also not to be sceptical but where is a distance learning course for 1100,(there are 14 exams at almost 70quid an exam plus travel to and from a test centre, a CPL for 1000 (again the test fee is 600quid + ac hire etc..approaches and landings) and an MCC course for 1500 WHERE ??

also i think you have forgotten to add accommodation and living expenses on to all of this, which is likely to take over a year (the ATPLs can take upto 1 year), plus living costs for the residentials at the school in question for the compulsery brush up courses, plus travel, plus for the IR in uk airspace, approach fees, landing fees etc etc (as an example an approach and landing for the test centre at bournemouth is approx 67quid, then do the same again for your test and an approach else where... eeeeks..ouch)

I genuinely think that your estimate of 15,000 is quite untrue and if you add up the cost of everything including even travel to and from the US it will surprise you.

I would be interested to see where you get your calculations for the conversions from, would they be certain US school bidding fr your hard earned cash.

also to any estimate, especially at professional level you need to realistically add one third again.

BUT i do stand to be corrected as always

Goodluck TR

moochooser

9th Mar 2005, 20:14

Answers to your questions.

1. I received this email from sothend flying club for the IR conversion.

"""Sorry for the delay in replying.. CAA requirements are 10 HRS in multi
aircraft and 5HRS in sim plus check ride.
Course cost is #3725.00 plus fee to CAA of #637.00 and hire of aircraft
for check ride at #265.00/hr . The course fee includes landings and
instructor but for the check ride (quoted at solo rates) landing fees are extra."""

At some schools you can do 10 hours in the sim and 5 in the aircraft. Southends sim is not approved. That would bring the price down to below £3500 but I said £3500 to be safe. I know CAA fees are not included but the big integrated schools dont include them either!

2. JAA ATPL distance learning course.

http://nacgroundschool.com/dlcourse.htm

take a look US$ 1870 about GBP 1000. Does that answer your question about where you can do a course for that price. The big UK schools do not include exam fees either! That price includes the refresher if done in FL.

3. The MCC course for £1500. I will have to ask a guy at work where he did it as he told me about that price. Once I find out I will post it. I found one for £2300 http://www.multiflight.com/training/mcc.html

4. The CPL conversion, the CAA leaves it up to the school to decide how much training you need, I was quoted around £1000, again the big UK schools dont include CAA fees!

5. Living expenses, sorry I forgot it was free to live in England? The cost of living in the US is far cheaper than in the UK. I shared an apartment 5 mins from the airport, swimming pool, gym etc for US$200 a month. Food is also far cheaper. To get all the FAA ratings all the way to Comm IR multi takes about 4 months if you are really committed. You can also start studying for the JAA ATPL exams whilst there. You then return to the UK and get a job whilst finishing the distance course.

6. Lets assume it costs an extra £1000 pounds per check ride, in the US it is no where near that price (£400) but lets just say that for arguments sake. Thats £6000 so the total cost would go up to about £21,000 but remember most UK schools dont include those fees either. So you still have a saving of over £30,000. I am not trying to sell anything, I do not work for a school, I have nothing to gain from posting this. I just want people to be able to make an informed decision before paying over £50,000 to be in a position to apply for jobs that are very hard to get.

The savings are huge and you end up with the same license.

Travel costs to the us are not that much $400 return. It is cheaper to fly to Florida do 3 hours in a twin stay overnight in a hotel and fly back rather than do 3 hours in a twin in the UK.

Just thought I should add that in the US, you do not pay landing fees or approach fees or any other fee to use airfields. You can do approaches at international airports without having to pay a penny or phone them in advance. You would only be subject to that whilst doing the two conversions in the UK.

smith

9th Mar 2005, 20:53

You would not have to convert your FAA PPL into a JAA one as they are both ICAO and hence you can do the ATPL exams on the strength of that.

Also if you have the JAA ATPL exams in the bag first it exempts you from sitting some of the CPL/IR ground exams.

Alex Whittingham

9th Mar 2005, 21:01

I think you're mistaken about the cost of the conversion certainly as far as the flying tests go. I asked Bristol Flight Centre and Multiflight some months ago for the average conversion costs, they both reckon about £9K. Discussion here (http://www.jals.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=148) .

I notice you haven't actually done this for the costs you quote, your statement would carry a bit more weight if you had.

NACGS

9th Mar 2005, 21:19

I can concur with Alex. As a person dealing with people converting from FAA to JAA on a daily basis and seeing about 20-30 already complete this conversion this in 2005 I speak with some experience.

You costs are way off ! Be a lot more realistic with those prices, they are too low, and like I tell all people wishing to learn to fly its extremely rare for a person to make it through a course in minimum hours. I have seen FAA to JAA IR conversions take 40 hrs for a low time FAA pilot, which you will be if you follow your plan of attack.

Remember too, as part of a DL ATPL course there are mandatory pre exam prep courses that must be attended, so these need to be factored in, as well as accom and food costs during your times at the exam center ( unless of course you live beside one!) .

Have a better search through PPrune, and contact a couple more flight schools about the conversion, try and talk to schools who have actually put students through the conversion, or better off come and see us all at the Flight Training Show on March 19 at Heathrow!

Chris

moochooser

9th Mar 2005, 21:46

The prices I have quoted were quoted to me from schools in the UK. Are they lying?
You are right, I have not done the conversion and hope I never have to but I did not make these prices up. I currently fly PIC in a twin turboprop on an N reg in the UK and hope to find an international job that doesn’t require JAA licenses, the search will begin in a few months. I found out the information in case I have no option other than the conversion. I know it would be hard for a low time pilot to complete in minimum hours but how many people fail their IR on an integrated course, is the retraining included? It is not for everyone and some parts would not be for me such as the distance learning, I would prefer to pay a bit extra and do a residential course, probably at Bristol or Cranfield. I am not trying to deceive people here I am just stating the facts. This IS the cheapest way to get a JAA ATPL and it is possible. Even if you didn't do it in minimum hours you would have to be pretty crap to eat up even half of the money you saved, if you did you should probably look for another career. I am just providing information for people who are thinking of starting out as there are lots of people eager to get their hands on the mountains of money involved and who would not tell them every option. I however have nothing to gain

I just had to add this as it is so crazy.

"Even if you ate up half of the money you saved". Half the money is 15,000 pounds. Insane it is 15,000 pounds. Two and a half years rent where I live. A very nice second hand Porche. A cessna 152. 120 hours in a twin in the states!!!! It is a stupid ammount of money and that is only HALF of what you could save.

No mater what argument you use it would not change the fact that this is by far the cheapest way to get the license. Landing fees/ test fees/ accommodation/ flights to the US etc. It dosent matter you would still be saving a huge ammount of money. Also many of those costs are not included in the UK prices anyway so you would have to add them onto the £50,000 if you went integrated.

silverknapper

9th Mar 2005, 22:15

Paying 50k may be insane. Paying £35k is a bit more realistic. And your job prospects will also be more realistic. Can't imagine your chances will be good having only flown 10 hours in the UK. Also these are quoted minima. If you stripped a UK quote of Test fees, hire for test etc I'm sure it would look more like £28k. Plus you don't get treated like a criminal for trying to contribute to our economy - TSA rule!!!

What an idiotic, narrow minded thread this started as - I thought all the idiots had left prune, obviously not!

moochooser

9th Mar 2005, 22:24

I geuss you work for a UK school and that is why you have a problem with this thread. As for the TSA rule, yes it is stupid, but why be patriotic about it as all you get in the UK is very badly ripped off by the schools and CAA. This is just information, I am not trying to sell anything. Obviously anyone who is planning to do it this way will do their own research and find out for themselves how much thay can save. I didn't find it too hard finding a job in the UK having never flown here.

As I said before the test fees in the US are less than £400. The two you have to do in the UK are say £2000 for arguments sake. The fees for the ATPL will eat up another couple of thousand at most. THERE ARE NO LANDING FEES OR APPROACH FEES IN THE US so that would not add to the cost.

You CAN save a huge ammount of money. I don\'t understand how people can argue about that.

thereceiver2004

9th Mar 2005, 22:48

The MCC course for £1500. I will have to ask a guy at work where he did it as he told me about that price. Once I find out I will post it. I found one for £2300 http://www.multiflight.com/training/mcc.html
hmmmm, i think you might find the 1500 course is offered by multiflight to students who undertake all their CPL/IR training with them., cheapest MCC course in the UK is 2000, plus of course living costs for the duration
would be interested to find out where your guy at work did it for 1500

(7) Convert the FAA IR to JAA GBP 3500
yet then you say the actual figure is
at least 3725 + the extras as copied from an email below
Sorry for the delay in replying.. CAA requirements are 10 HRS in multi
aircraft and 5HRS in sim plus check ride.
Course cost is #3725.00 plus fee to CAA of #637.00 and hire of aircraft
for check ride at #265.00/hr . The course fee includes landings and
instructor but for the check ride (quoted at solo rates) landing fees are extra.
so how could it be 3500, i suggest ALL the other figures are wrong as they have come from a school bidding for your business and you would have to seriously sit down and work it out and i am afraid you would surprise yourself over how INACCURATE they are

I hope you do not think i am being annoying, but just do not want you to get the wrong idea, to get a JAR ATPL will cost you alot more than 15k, I PROMISE

The prices I have quoted were quoted to me from schools in the UK. Are they lying?
erm no, just being economical and misleading with the truth.

moochooser

10th Mar 2005, 00:19

As I said in an previous post. The quote for the IR conversion was with 10 hours in an aircraft as southends sim is not approved to do more than 5 hours. The actual minimums are 10 in sim and 5 in aircraft. I did not look into other schools as I was just trying to get a rough idea incase I need to convert. I assumed I could find it cheaper if 10 hours could be done in a sim.

I got to FAA Multi CPL IR for about US$13,000 it was a couple of years ago so rates have gone up a bit but not by much. Lets say it costs £10,000 to convert, have I not still saved alot of money? I don't understand why so many people seem to be trying to find holes in this. I am just trying to help people who are thinking of starting. Obviously they will do their own research on the matter.

Just out of interest what is the cheapest integrated ATPL course in the UK that includes ALL required fees and an MCC course.
Also do they provide accommodation and food in that price?

It would be interesting to know how many people who have replied are either conected in some way to a UK school or who did the integrated course and are having trouble finding a job.

This post was just intended to give people who want to be a pilot an obviously cheaper option to look into.

moochooser

10th Mar 2005, 01:53

Silverknapper wrote:

What an idiotic, narrow minded thread this started as - I thought all the idiots had left prune, obviously not!

It is narrow minded to say something like that don't you think. Why not look at other options or are you that narrow minded. It is idiotioc to think people will not research it for themselves and they will find it is cheaper if they do.

pipergirl

10th Mar 2005, 05:56

interesting post moochooser-

i have to say at times i have looked at the prices for training and have been amazed at the wide ranging prices for different training(CPL, IR etc)..
When it comes to getting value for money, i am the first person to try and sniff out a bargain and believe me when it comes to flying i have tried my best to do the same.

I am almost on the brink of finishing my ATPLs and have been looking into CPL/IR costs and am trying to figure out the cheapest way to do, while at the same time not selling myself short by choosing price over quality.
I see what u are saying that there are cheaper options out there and people should look into them before paying over the odds for what boils down to the same thing.

The one thing I think about ur figures-
mmmm they may be the prices u have been quoted by a school, but at the end of the day, these are based on minimums and by all accounts (I have spoken to a lot of people who have done conversions and people here have already stated this) things like FAA conversions generally take a lot longer than the minimums.
You also have not factored in exam fees for the conversion or a/c hire.
I am not criticising what you have said or anything like that, but i find that when a school is signifigantly cheaper than another, there is usually a catch.
The other thing is-
if you get a bunch of schools scattered around the world giving u good quotes like what u r stating,at times it is not worth hopping between cities for cheap training when ur overheads (flts etc) start to push ur outgoings up.

can i ask u-
where did u get the quote for a FAA CPL for $1300 and the ME/IR add on for $1800?

smith

10th Mar 2005, 08:07

People keep saying "don't forget food and living costs", it doesn't matter if your house in the UK is right next door to your flight school and you can walk to it, you will still have food and a mortgage/rent to pay for. Unless of course you still live at home with the olds.

moochooser

10th Mar 2005, 08:26

All FAA prices are from a school called Air Desert Pacific in Los Angeles. Their prices are not as good as they used to be so you could probably find it cheaper somewhere else. It is a cheap and cherfull place to learn. Planes are not as bad as some might say.

thereceiver2004

10th Mar 2005, 08:35

please do not get me wrong i am not trying to make a mockery of your post, however the prices you originally quoted were not correct and indeed you have now corrected most of them by saying they were old, or from a friend, or based on a school in the uk doing it on sim.. etc..

one of the most soul destroying facts in aviation is that someone cannot start their dream to become an airline pilot purely due to the lack of money or ability to get it. They may be the most able pilot(s) in the world.

I just thought your post

This is the cheapest way to get a JAA ATPL

would give false hope to some of these people who might set off down this road and perhaps get half way through the IR and run out of money as it has cost alot more than they thought. Indeed MY IR has now cost 18,000 so far.

welld one on taking the time to put all this together, however i do think if you take into account travel, living costs,food,conversions,tests,even the licence fee from the CAA is rediculous just to print out your CPL, you are realistically looking at ATLEAST 30K for a fATPL.

goodluck

moochooser

10th Mar 2005, 08:42

Which price did I say was old? The only one I said was from a friend was £500 less than what I found after looking for one minuite. Why do people keep going on about living costs? You have to live in England also.
I don't think anyone would go down this road without researching it for themselves. There is no way that this route would cost £30,000. Do UK schools include all the fees?

Seaweed Knees

10th Mar 2005, 09:12

Having completed my training in the US up to CPL ME/IR, I have been interested to see the amount of scepticism with which this thread is being viewed.

I completed my FAA training on a budget of £13000.

That included all fees, living and travel expenses....Oh yeah, and a Suzuki TL1000R to play on for the time I was there.
After I completed my training, and a not too lengthy search, I landed myself a job in a C182. (Unpaid of course ;) )
I returned to England a little over £10000 poorer, but with 750 hours under my belt. I sold the bike for a little more than I bought it for.

Since my return at the end of last year, I have been looking into conversion. (although not very actively), This is what Ive been quoted for the entire conversion:

JAA ATPL Theoretical Training. 25 weeks £ 4,245.00

CAA Examinations 14 £55.00 each £ 770.00

Training as required to pass CPL skills test Approx 5 hours £234.00 / hr £ 1,170.00

CPL Skills Test Direct to CAA £ 637.00

Aircraft hire for test Approx 2 hours £177.00 / hr £ 354.00

MEPL skills test In house examiner £ 125.00

Aircraft hire for test Approx 1.2 hours £260.00 / hr £ 312.00

Minimum of 15 hours IR training 5 hrs BE76 £343.00 / hr £ 1,715.00
10 hrs FNPT 2 £145.00 / hr £ 1,450.00

IR Flight test Direct to CAA £ 637.00

Aircraft hire for test Approx 2 hours £260.00 / hr £ 520.00

TOTAL £11,935.00

I know I could save a lot by doing a distance course, but this is just the way the quote came.

Now, before anyone starts repeating themselves about how no one ever passes in the minimum time, let me just point a couple of things out.

I chose to take the FAA Instrument rating in a Seneca and had absolutely no trouble whatsoever. If you can pass the FAA ME/IR, why not the JAA?
Forget about the minimum training, I could pass the test Today. Unless of course Im overlooking a fundamental reason why Flying on instruments is harder in the UK.

The key is not to waste youre hour building time in the states. Use it to practice approaches instead of just pounding it out on monotonous cross country flights.

So, I'm not going to assume that anyone will go out of their way to find a job in the states after their training and just add up the costs.

Go to the states and return 6 months later with FAA CPL ME/IR and 250hours....£11000

Convert to JAA without needing extra training (And why the hell would you?).......£11935

So, we're looking at £23000 without the discount for a distance learning course.

Ive known that I wanted to be a pilot for as long as I can remember. Ive known that I wouldnt be learning to do that in the UK since I first saw the price of training here.
It is disgustingly over priced and is a barrier between those of us with shallow pockets and our dreams of a life in aviation. It almost seems as if its set up to keep the riff raff out of the skies or something.

In America, If you want to fly you can. A person of average means can even fly for PLEASURE!!! For Pleasure for gods sake. Imagine being able to hire an aircraft and fly over to france for the weekend without spending 2 weeks salary. In the US you can do it for 2 days salary! (not france of course, but a similar journey.)

The sooner people realise that their goals can be accomplished without having to pay these amounts the better.
Who knows, maybe we'll see a drop in the cost of flight training in the UK.

www.universalairacademy.com has aircraft for $50 wet.

whats that, just under £30?

I just thought your post

This is the cheapest way to get a JAA ATPL

would give false hope to some of these people who might set off down this road and perhaps get half way through the IR and run out of money as it has cost alot more than they thought.

This thread is as far as I know, very appropriately titled.

This IS the cheapest way to do it.
Im sorry to hear that its cost you so much, If only this thread had come about sooner.

Alex Whittingham

10th Mar 2005, 09:56

Does the FAA IR include NDB holding and tracking nowadays?

Seaweed Knees

10th Mar 2005, 10:24

NDB Intercepting and tracking is part of the FAA practical test standards.

I dont think holding at an NDB is part of the check ride (I may be wrong, but I didnt do it), but if you know youll be doing it in britain, you can practice it in the states whilst time is cheap.

Any way you look at it, if you plan your training carefully, theres no reason why 15 hours extra won't be more than enough to prepare you for the JAA test.

moochooser

10th Mar 2005, 10:24

I used to teach it to my students and I was taught it by my instructor so the answer is yes. Once you understand it it is not very hard. If you find it hard practice for twenty hours or so whilst building time.

Badgast

10th Mar 2005, 11:09

Great thread guys, you're helping us wannabees making an informed choice about the different routes to the atpl. What do think about this route:
Jaa ppl in florida or cali
hour builing usa
distance learning atpl theory
--> find a job and save as hell

Cpl/ir/me in spain, for example at aerofan
Mcc at Ctc or somewhere cheap

My other choice is getting all the faa ratings and doing the conversion route. I could stay with a friend in the usa in the surrounding of trenton, NJ. I know Atp airline transport proffesionals is not too far from the place I could stay. I have about 10000 euros now available for training and I'm in the final fase of my master in business administration. During the coming months I will make a choice about the route I'm going to take.

silverknapper

10th Mar 2005, 12:48

I don't work for any school anywhere.
You seem to have ignored my point that a school here can put together a quote like yours for £28k. These are bare bones quotes based on minimum hours.
You say you have a job - but on an N reg so I don't think that counts. Try going to a UK carrier with min hours and only having spent five or ten hours in UK airspace. See how far you go.
If Seaweed thinks he will pass a uk IRT now, without further training then go ahead, ask a school for a 170A to test standard.

This really must be a wind up. I speak to mates a lot who have gone abroad. A lot say they didn't save a bean. And as for all this coming from a brand new poster - hmmm.

Re-Heat

10th Mar 2005, 12:54

1) Always add in opportunity cost of lost earnings in addition to all living costs, otherwise it is not true cost to you at all.

2) Why on earth does anyone think that cheapest and quickest is best for gaining the essentials to gain the licence - only to join a large pool of people in a similar position with similar hours?

moochooser

10th Mar 2005, 12:55

No one has answered my question.

What is the cheapest integrated course in the UK?
Does that include exam fees etc?
Does that include accommodation and food?

Oh of course how stupid of me I forgott my job dosen't coun't as it is not a real plane. I assume you did the integrated course in the UK. What are you doing flying related now?

Seaweed Knees

10th Mar 2005, 13:30

You seem to have ignored my point that a school here can put together a quote like yours for £28k. These are bare bones quotes based on minimum hours.

I think you should re-read this thread.
The quote I was given includes test fees, if its test fees that you consider to be the meat on the bones. Is that what youre talking about?

As for the minimums, tell me why you feel an FAA instrument rated pilot would require more than 15 additional hours of training to pass another IR.

Why?

I notice that you are the same guy who resorted to name calling on the last page. Youre obviously a very angry and bitter person. I can only assume that your bitterness is a result of your having been raped by a UK school yourself.
You've spent a lot of money, made a lot of mistakes and are now feeling stupid about not having researched things a little better.

I currently fly PIC in a twin turboprop on an N reg in the UK
but on an N reg so I don't think that counts.

What on earth are you talking about?

Your entire post is rediculous.

silverknapper

10th Mar 2005, 13:40

Don't come the smart arse. Are you saying those costs are for a integrated course in the states? Of course not. Integrated has no relevance here. Compare it with a modular course not integrated.
I haven't been 'raped' as you so eloquently put it. I am exceptionally happy with my training choices. But have seen many people burned by going down these routes that are too good to be true.
Seaweed you said you could pass a UK IRT now. Well go and do it them come back and say you are right. None of you has a UK IR. Once you have then maybe your comments will have some credibility.

Seaweed Knees

10th Mar 2005, 13:58

Seaweed you said you could pass a UK IRT now. Well go and do it them come back and say you are right.
I intend to do just that, but thanks for the advice anyway.
The test will be the easy part. Financing it is another matter.

Now, i'll ask you again. I'll type it in bold to make sure you see it.

Why would an FAA IR rated pilot have difficulty passing a JAA IR test? Especially after the minimum 15 hours extra training that is required.

None of you has a UK IR. Once you have then maybe your comments will have some credibility.

Do you have an FAA IR?

I fail to see how any of the statements I have made are lacking credibility. Do you think i'm lying about something? Does youre entire arguement hinge on the fact that you dont think the FAA IR is as good as a JAA one?

If not, please explain exactly what it is you are having a hard time with here and I will attempt to explain or clarify as need be.

Tallbloke

10th Mar 2005, 14:19

Er, handbags anyone?

BillieBob

10th Mar 2005, 15:39

Whilst it may well be cheaper, in some cases, to follow the route that Moochooser first advocated, it should be borne in mind that the figures listed are based upon the cheapest quotes of various marketing departments and "my mate told me" estimates, neither of which are particularly reliable. They also assume that the average person will be able to pass everything first time in the minimum possible hours. For these reasons, the figures should be treated with extreme caution. It should also be noted that, as silverknapper pointed out, the original post did not compare like with like - the figure of £56,500 did not relate to a minimum cost modular course in the UK, which can be had for well under £30,000.

Also conveniently ignored is the attitude of JAA airline recruiters to pilots with only 10 hours (or less) experience in JAA airspace. In his original post, Moochooser stated "....you lot who say the name of the school means a lot can't deny that a holder of a frozen ATPL, with those type ratings, would stand a far better chance than a fresh graduate from one of the rip off UK schools". I have to say that most JAA airlines would favour the fresh graduate (who they would, in any case, bond for the appropriate type rating) over the holder of a MPA type rating but little relevant experience.

Before assuming that conversion may be achieved in the minimum time, having taken the cheapest options towards FAA qualifications, it might be worth taking a look at the FAA Practical Test Standards and comparing them with the CAA's Standards Document 1.

As Alex suggested, and contrary to Seaweed Knees' assertion, NDB tracking is not a mandatory part of the FAA instrument rating, the PTS lists the minimum radio navigation equipment as that necessary "for the performance of two of the following nonprecision approaches: VOR, NDB, GPS, LOC, LDA, SDF, or RNAV and one precision approach: ILS, GLS, or MLS." There is, therefore, no requirement for the aircraft to be fitted with an ADF receiver or, indeed, for any tracking using a RMI. On the other hand, single-needle tracking both to and from a beacon, as well as single-needle holding procedures, are usually required in a CAA IR Skill Test.

A comparison of test tolerances reveals the following differences, among others:

Departure/Cruise:
FAA - Maintains the applicable airspeed within +/-10 knots; headings within +/-10°; altitude within +/-100 feet; and tracks a course, radial or bearing within ¾ scale deflection of the CDI.
CAA - Take-off/Vr: +5kts/-0kts, Climb: +/-5kts, Heading: +/-5°, Tracking +/-5°

Holding:
FAA - Maintains the airspeed within +/-10 knots; altitude within +/-100 feet; headings within +/-10°; and tracks a selected course, radial or bearing within ¾ scale deflection of the CDI.
CAA - Speed: +/-5kts, Altitude: +/-100ft, Heading: +/-5°, Tracking +/-5°

Intercepting and Tracking Navigational Systems
FAA - Maintains the airspeed within +/-10 knots, altitude within +/-100 feet, and selected headings within +/-5°. Applies proper correction to maintain a course, allowing no more than three-quarter-scale deflection of the CDI or within +/-10° in case of an RMI.
CAA - Speed: +/-5kts, Altitude: +/-100ft, Heading: +/-5°, Tracking +/-5°

Non-precision Approach
FAA - Allows, while on the final approach segment, no more than a three-quarter-scale deflection of the CDI or within 10° in case of an RMI, and maintains airspeed within +/-10 knots of that desired. Maintains the MDA, when reached, within +100 feet, -0 feet to the MAP
CAA - Tracking: +/-5°, Speed: +/-5kts, MDA: +50ft/-0ft

It would appear that the answer to Seaweed Knees' question "Why would an FAA IR rated pilot have difficulty passing a JAA IR test? Especially after the minimum 15 hours extra training that is required" is that, as well as a normal requirement for single-needle NDB tracking, which a FAA rated pilot may never have experienced, almost all of the CAA tolerances are half those of the FAA requirements.
Silverknapper is quite correct in asserting that these posts would have a great deal more credibility if written by someone who had successfully completed the conversion in minimum time having gained FAA qualifications at minimum cost. It may be possible but I, for one, have never heard of it happening.
And, before the allegations start flying, I do hold both JAA and FAA instrument ratings but have no connection whatever with any JAA FTO.

Seaweed Knees

10th Mar 2005, 15:53

Tolerances and NDB procedures are of course something that a candidate planning to convert in this manner would be able to prepare for.

If your aim is to hold a JAA IR, you are obviously going to follow the CAA's standards throuought your training.
That goes without saying.

silverknapper

10th Mar 2005, 16:46

An exceptionally detailed and informative post Billiebob. Well done on bringing it to the debate!
Once again Seaweed chhoses to ignore the fact that he will be applying for a UK job having flown in the UK for a total of 10 hours.

moochooser

10th Mar 2005, 17:12

If it so hard to pass the UK tests I assume lots of people fail even if they did the training in the UK. Do the UK schools take this into account and include retests and the required retraining in their price? Or would it be likely that the price quoted would be even higher than it is because it is so hard to pass with minimum hours?

Seaweed Knees

10th Mar 2005, 18:24

Once again Seaweed chhoses to ignore the fact that he will be applying for a UK job having flown in the UK for a total of 10 hours.

And once again you choose not to reveal why you believe it is not possible to convert an FAA IR without going over the 15 hours.

Your posts are pointless, why are you bothering to write anything at all?

As far as getting a job with low "UK" hours goes. I dont see the problem.
Ive come accross many instructors who did almost all of their training bar the Instructor stuff at JAR schools in the US before getting hired in the UK.
What about jump pilots? I doubt the CCI at any DZ here would care about where the flight time was logged. In my opinion, US airspace is far more challenging than British airspace anyway.
There are numerous ways of building up time.

After a full conversion, the minimum UK airspace flight time will come to about 17 hours.

As for me, I have already been offered a job flying here in the UK.

fullandfree

10th Mar 2005, 19:21

An old flying proverb say ''Buy cheap, buy twice''.

Good Luck

ikea

10th Mar 2005, 22:11

hey, thats very similar to my plan, but ive worked it out, ihn all, with airfares and what have you, its going to cost 25k at least

stefair

11th Mar 2005, 07:00

I think moochooser did a fine job in posting here about what he thinks might be a good alternative to a very expensive integrated course. However, I also got the feeling that the figures he quoted are only the very minimum and a potential candidate planning on choosing this route should be aware of that. On the other hand, I think the prices a FTO like OAT quotes are only the minimum figures too.

The fact that he and Seaweed Knees were attacked so fiercely proofs that he/they opened up a discussion on a very sensitive topic, which made some fear about their business...

Anyway, I just wanted to raise a question in between all this fighting. We've talked quite a bit about FAA flying but what about JAA training in the US? Why are so many people going to train in the US under JAA regulations if it is so bad? They're training in the same airpace, practicing approaches on the same airports? Is it to be considered as erroneous as an FAA training is?

To wrap my post up, I think the hours built, even under FAA regulations, won't hurt anybody. Plus, they are the required hours airlines are asking for so I don't see anything that can be disadvantageous in having PICs flown under FAA regulations.

As I'm a greenhorn myself and still looking for the right way for getting my training I stand to be corrected.

scroggs

11th Mar 2005, 11:19

It is entirely possible to complete a JAA CPL/IR (frozen ATPL) for less cost than is commonly quoted for the major integrated schools. As WWW has posted many times, it can be done entirely in the UK for around GBP 35,000. With selective use of FAA schools and careful budgeting, and bearing in mind the current exchange rates, I am quite prepared to believe that the whole process could be completed for between GBP 25,000 and 30,000. It is theoretically possible to construct a route for far less, as moochooser has tried to demonstrate, but it would be a very unwise wannabe who bet his future on those figures! I would suggest that, even going via moochoosers route, you budget at least $50,000. This would allow for errors, exchange rate variations, and any slip-ups on the JAA conversion. If you have some left at the end, lucky you!

As for the chances of getting a UK-based job, there is no intrinsic reason why a wannabe who has taken this route would be unsuitable for employment by a CAA/JAA airline. Of the hundreds of pilots I work with at Virgin, several completed all, or the majority, of their training in the USA - admittedly some years ago. In many parts of the world the FAA ATPL is the preferred qualification. Most intelligent employers would not mark down an individual for going this route, so long as all the required conversion tests were completed to a high standard. Some employers do show a preference for particular schools, which can be an obstacle, but as far as I can tell, no employer limits his intake entirely to the output of one single training establishment.

This is a worthwhile conversation; it is not improved by bad-tempered name-calling. Tackle the arguments, not the man.

Scroggs

CarbHeatIn

11th Mar 2005, 12:46

Interesting discussion.

What I've always wondered about is, why, if UK carriers are so insistant that their self-funded applicants have trained in the UK; in the majority of cases when these carriers have an integrated sponsored cadat scheme, invariably all the training is carried out outside the UK, in Florida, Spain, New Zealand, Arizona etc etc

sk8erboi

11th Mar 2005, 13:13

Scroggs has hit the nail on the head.
Moo has sparked such a reaction because he has come here stating that a person can achieve a JAA CPL/IR for £16000. This is rubbish. Moo hasn't brought any great revelation to the forum, people have been doing this for years. And were you to ask any of them if it cost them under £16000 I bet not one would say yes. Also if it was that easy why are schools here still in business? It is irresponsible to get peoples hopes up, or indeed to send them training having only budgeted for £16k. Indeed it is ludicrous. He then throws accusations around about people who disagree with him having ulterior motives. I would suggest that he may be the one with an ulterior motive. I am always suspicious of people posting aggressively when they have only been on prune a week or two. Perhaps business in the US is slow?
I would humbly disagree with Scroggs on the point of getting that first job. I have attended several interviews in the last 4 months, and the one thing which was always picked up on when going over my log book was that I had trained for my CPL/IR in the UK, indeed one said outright they only take people who have. This may be the opinion of one or two dinosaurs, but at the end of the day it is they who are doing the recruiting. Luckily I did get a job, at the airfield I did my hour building from. And I apportion this in no small part to being able to talk enthusiastically about the area. It is a tough job market at the moment, and anything which makes you more marketable has to be worth it. And the attitude is still very prevalent - 'train where you want to work'. However I agree entirely that once that first job is gained it doesn't matter a damn from that point on.

Carb, to venture an answer to your question, I would guess it is because the company can guarantee the quality of training, and indeed decide the syllabus which it's students will follow to an extent.

Fingers sore now - go easy on me!

Seaweed Knees

11th Mar 2005, 14:51

The important thing here is that this thread is highlighting an alternative and yes, cheaper route to the JAA fATPL. Once people have read the information in this thread it is up to them what they do.
To suggest that anyone is going to just fly off to the US with £16 because they have read this thread is rediculous.
People need to research this themselves before they make any decisions.

look at www.airdesertpacific.com and www.universalairacademy.com

The figures speak for themselves.

Phone all the UK scools that offer conversions and find out what they are quoting.

you WILL find that it is significantly lower than the cheapest modular course in the UK.
Infact, you will find that the cost of training and exam fees etc comes in significantly below the £20000 mark.

I dont care whether you believe me or the other guy about this or not. Just DO YOUR RESEARCH before you decide on your path to the fATPL

moochooser

11th Mar 2005, 19:12

I am glad that a few people have started to understand what this post was about. The costs I quoted at the start are indeed the bare minimums and I too would be very surprised if anyone completed it on that budget. The only reason I started this thread was to outline another option. Not for one second would I think someone would go to the states with £16,000 expecting to get a FATPL in a year. I did not include fees because neither do the UK schools and to make the quote comparable I decided to leave it out. Uk schools also quote a price based on bare minimums.

Irresponsible getting peoples hopes up??????????? What are you talking about? The whole reason I posted on pprune was so the people who may consider this route would be able to see the discussion that followed. Irresponsible would have been advertising in a publication. As far as irresponsible goes, call any of the UK schools offering integrated courses such as OAT (£56,000) tomorrow. Tell them you have just finished Uni and want to finally start the ATPL course with them so you can pursue you life long dream of becoming an airline pilot. Remember to ask what the job market is like and your prospects of finding that job you have always wanted. I bet they give you a very responsible answer.

I never said it was easy, I just outlined a route and prices. I do not have any other motive apart from helping people make an informed decision about training. I used to work for a school in the US but that was over a year ago and yes it is the one I mentioned, not because I want them to get students, it was because that is the only one I have any real experience of.

Why schools in the UK are still in business. I can answer that by using another example only involving less money. Why do people buy used Nissan skylines in the UK when you can get them shipped over from Japan for half the price. The answer is because it is easier if you have the money to get it in the UK. Also not everyone who wants one knows you can get them cheaper in Japan.

silverknapper

11th Mar 2005, 20:54

We are talking comparisons with modular courses - this has been stressed many times yet you still hark on about integrated, and choose the most expensive school as your model.
It's a funny comparison you use, the Nissan Skyline. It goes to prove there are two sides to every story. Anyone who has ever bought an imported one from Japan - a 'grey' import will know insurance companies are weird about them and parts are a nightmare. However this isn't car geek network so I won't be drawn into discussion on this.
Seaweed - I really hope you will find me someone who has a JAA CPL/IR, done in minimum hours and for 'significantly below the 20 grand mark'. I've tried round my contacts who have trained in the U.S - not one of them did.

moochooser

11th Mar 2005, 21:21

All I am saying is this is the cheapest way to get a JAA ATPL. Look at the title. I compared it to integrated because that is the most you can save. The cheapest method compared to the most expensive.

Anyway, I am getting very bored with this. I hope this thread has served its purpose and given those thinking of talking the plunge a bit more information about options some don't consider. Good luck with any route you take, you will need it either way.:ok:

Tallbloke

11th Mar 2005, 22:01

Elvis has left the building :D

Seaweed Knees

11th Mar 2005, 22:47

Elvis may have left, but Shakin' Stevens feels like rocking out a little longer.

Seaweed - I really hope you will find me someone who has a JAA CPL/IR, done in minimum hours and for 'significantly below the 20 grand mark'. I've tried round my contacts who have trained in the U.S - not one of them did.

Is that really it?
Your entire reason for trying to debunk this thread hinges on the fact that it is not possible to convert in the minimum time. Yet, the reason you have finally given is that you dont know anyone who did it?

Do you know anyone who trained in the US for the specific purpose of returning to convert?

The simple fact is; if it is possible to complete the JAA IR, or CPL for that matter in the UK without exceeding the minimum times (Which it is), then it is possible to train to the same sylabus in the states, return to the UK, complete an additional 15 hours of training and pass the IR checkride.

How can you deny this?

Please, if you reply, tell everybody what it is specifically, that is going to prevent a person who has completed the FAA training plus 15 hours of the JAA training from passing the Checkride.

I ask only that you back up the statements you have made with some logical reasoning.

stefair

11th Mar 2005, 23:03

moochooser,

Thank you for your posting. It's helped me a great deal, but I think we've discussed this via email already, right? ;-)

silverknapper

12th Mar 2005, 22:59

It has been interesting, but sadly getting boring now. When seaweed has a JAA IR then maybe I'll listen to his arguments. Another recent post of his here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=166720) demonstrates he seems to be just a typing advert for U.S schools.

Thanks all for both points of view

Ibanez

13th Mar 2005, 08:59

Well, here are the ACTUAL expenses paid thus far- every single penny. I'm currently in the process of doing an ICAO licence conversion. All prices include VAT. Distance learning was done through Cabair (they had an easter special last year and hence the low cost). Miscellaneous equipment include costs like maps, stop watch, knee board etc. Don't let your ICAO licence lapse during the ground school phase. It must be current for the conversion, but that can be renewed whilst undergoing the necesary conversion training. Accomodation includes the 4 week residential for the distance learning and the accomodation whilst undergoing flight training.

Distance learning - £998
Medical 2004 (JAR) - £250
Miscellaneous Equipment - £82
Exam fees - £770
Medical 2005 (JAR / ICAO) - £157
Radio licence - £50
ICAO renewal - £150
Courier of ICAO licence - £46
Accommodation - £612

Flying costs (5hrs sim, 5 hrs twin, 5 hrs single):

Simulator - £625
Single - £1045
Twin - £1405
Twin (test) - £432
Test Fee IR - £637
MEP Rating - £281
MEP Test fee - £100
Approach Fees - £63
MCC Course (737-200) - £3400

Total costs untill completion of IR: £11103

You can obviously save about £1000 if you do an MCC course on a TP. I'm starting my CPL training (hours as required) next week, but the figures budgeted for are:

Fixed pitch single - £450
Variable pitch, retractable U/C single - £1175
Test Fee CPL - £637
Approach Fees - £60
Accomodation - £100

TOTAL COST: £13525

Hope that helps. Depending on where you do the ground school, it takes about a year to complete everything. Allow 3 months to complete flight training.

CHEERS!!! :ok:

7006 fan

13th Mar 2005, 10:19

I have found this thread very interesting and useful, some of the comments are, in my opinion, slightly 'off beam' but still worthwhile. It somewhat overcomes my question under a different topic heading "CPL (on the cheap)".
One thing I find interesting in the argument, is that of cost. Could one compare the statements made in the late 1990's about 'lo-cost'. All the flag carriers stated it was impossible to fly to xyz for less than the prices they were charging so we all paid £200+ to fly to Paris etc. OK lo-cost is an uncomfortable, cattle truck experience but it offers low price travel and the same level of safety (I hope!!!) as scheduled services. And now lo-cost has made the 'big guys' lower their fares to be more competitive, therefore if the training is good safe and of quality, resulting in the provision of a correct licence to fly, then so be it. Or is the suggestion that pilots of United, Delta TWA etc are somehow 2nd class pilots as they have not learnt to fly in the UK?!

Fair_Weather_Flyer

13th Mar 2005, 23:32

Well, I currently have my FAA ratings up to CPL/IR with all of the instructor ratings. Nearly all of my training was done on a twin, the same twin I will use for my UK IR conversion. I also have an instructing job in the US on a visa that will build my time up to 1000hrs, most of which will be multi and lots instrument. I had the good sense to do the ATPL theory straight after my PPL so that makes it pretty easy, albeit pricey to do the conversion. I reckon by the time I'm finished with the JAA conversion I will have spent about 40,000-45,000GBP. This includes living expenses and is based on realistic training and conversion costs, not minimums.

It's probably possible to spend less doing all of the training in the UK; but then with 200hrs I find it hard to believe that I would get any kind of job. I realise that not having much time in UK airspace may be a problem for many employers, hence the reason I'm also converting my instructor rating. If I'm lucky I may even get a job flying N reg turboprops or jets.

I don't think training in the US to CPL/IR and converting at minimum hours makes sense though. If you do the ATPL theory after the FAA stuff that will take 6+ months in which your flying skills will rust away. That increases the potential of conversion costs snowballing. At the end of the process you still have only 300hrs and that still in all probability makes you unemployable.

As a means of buliding up quality twin and instrument time to what I consider to be an employable amount of hours (1000ish) for turboprop and air taxi jobs I still believe the US is the way to go. In the five years I've been reading Pprune I've seen plenty of US trained posters go on to airline jobs.

Seaweed Knees

14th Mar 2005, 10:29

When seaweed has a JAA IR then maybe I'll listen to his arguments. Another recent post of his here demonstrates he seems to be just a typing advert for U.S schools.

The fact that you have failed to answer my question in every one of your posts, has infact answered it quite satisfatorily.

I'd just like to praise you on your outstanding detective skills also. Youve exposed me. I am indeed trying to advertise the benefits of US schools. Why you felt the need to link another thread however is beyond me. Surely there is enough evidence in this thread alone for you to build your case.

Fair weather, I dont know what to say. I completed my FAA training all expenses for £11000. I found a job and built to 750 before my return. (admitadly, my living expenses became VERY low, almost negative ;) during that time)

I hope my conversion isnt going to cost an additional £34000!!!!!

Especialy since I was quoted £12000. And I didnt shop around.

I'll admit, I have been very shrewd and miserly during my training. I took advantage of every freebie going. I rode in the back of other aircraft on IR training flights to observe on a regular basis.

I used the books of those who had gone before me and bought nothing new except charts and plates.

I convinced JAA hour building pilots to fly their cross countrys under the hood, so that I could fly as safety pilot and log the hours toward my total required for the CPL in exchange for the evenings beer.

Heres another one. www.craigslist.com is a website where you can find people looking to share cars from one city to another. Advertise your intention to fly between two citys and you will be inundated with people wanting to share the costs.

There are numerous ways to save money if you are willing to find them and take the trouble.

Fair_Weather_Flyer

14th Mar 2005, 13:07

The cost I have given you includes everything from flight training costs to airfares, US medical insurance, car insurance checkrides the whole lot. Many of the costs that have been quoted in this thread are simply not realistic. For example, I've seen the ATPL ground as costing just 1200. To do it with a reputable school would cost 1800; add in 800 for exams; add another 3000 for living expenses and hotel accomodation and you get a long way from the 1200 that someone mentioned. I reckon that I've spent about 15,000 on FAA flight training, another 14,000 will be spent on the conversion, which includes converting the CFI to FI. When you start to add living expenses in, the figure creeps towards the 40,000 mark. Of course living in the UK is not free so I'll probably save 15,000ish on a UK ATPL course.

Also, as an aside I noticed that Seaweed Knees mentioned logging safety pilot time, whilst flying with pilots who are under the hood. Fine for the FAA but as far as I know the JAA do not allow this time to be logged. Perhaps I'm mistaken.

Also, if you do the ATPL theory after the FAA training then your skills will become very rusty and the conversion will be VERY expensive. I've said it before and I'll say it again, do the ATPL's after the FAA PPL or you are in for trouble!

Seaweed Knees

14th Mar 2005, 14:05

Fine for the FAA but as far as I know the JAA do not allow this time to be logged.

Absolutely correct, but I think thats probably why the FAA requires 250 for the CPL as opposed to 150.

As soon as the conversion is made, only time in the left seat can be logged.

sk8erboi

14th Mar 2005, 20:44

Last time I looked it was 200, not 150 for a JAA CPL.
Thank you Fair weather for bringing some common sense to this argument. It is refreshing to see someone who has researched their licence thoroughly making a post, not people with a commercial interest.

Seaweed Knees

14th Mar 2005, 22:33

Sk8erboi,
I assume that you are including me in the catagory of people you do not think have researched their licence.

You have no idea what I have been through in the last 2 years in order to arrive at the position i'm at now.
I know very few people who have been as careful or dedicated as I have been in the training choices they've made. Perhaps that is the reason many of you seem to see me as a liar when I speak of the savings i've made, you dont understand what it is to be a trainee pilot without the funds.

My posts have simply been an attempt on my part to illustrate that it can be possible to do what many of you have done, except with a far lower budget.

I know why many of you are scoffing at the idea.
What I cannot understand however, is how so many of you can claim that this is unfeasable and yet offer no explanation as to why you believe that.

OK, so its 200 not 150 hours. Its been a while since that figure has been relevant to me.

Apparently there is some suspicion about my motives for posting here. I'm working for a US school or something, is that it? Rediculous.

I do remember from a previous thread that You are an instructor here in the UK though Sk8erboi. Interesting for you to be talking about commercial interests.

I infact have no affiliation with any flight centre, American or otherwise. Instruction is the absolute last avenue I would go down in persuit of hours.

Once I've recovered from my ankle fracture, i'll be starting on a twin turboprop here in the UK.
I have so far not needed to convert my licence or ratings to JAA and hopefully will not need to. Conversion has always been plan B, which is why I did not sit my ATPLs before my flight training as fair weather wisely suggested.

I do enjoy a good debate, but I have to say that you guys really aren't argueing a case here, you're just telling me i'm wrong.

Whilst reading this thread, i've often been reminded of the classic defence in childhood arguements:

"Why?"

"Just because!"

Come on, surely you can do better than that.

B2N2

16th Mar 2005, 16:17

Have to agree with you on that one Seaweed, I've been advocating flying in the US for a long time.
The time and money savings are simply staggering.
But like with everything you need to plan, plan and plan again.
Before I went US I spent a YEAR planning.
Do your home work people before you go.
If you need to fly/ train a certain way, let us know.
You cannot expect training providers in the US to be up to date with training requirements from other places in the world.
Talk to your examiners (multiple) contact the CAA and ask ask ask everything you need to know about training requirements, procedures and anything else.
PM for more info, and yes I do work for a US school.

mad_jock

16th Mar 2005, 18:12

I reckon if you have got the ability and have the balls to play the game go for it.

I did the semi US the rest Uk and it cost about 30k three years ago including a FI rating.

If you can get it for the prices mentioned on this thread it means your starting with a type rating for the same cost as someone with a MCC and CPL/IR UK training wise.

To be honest the more i see of people flying the less it is about where you did your training and more about the person. If the extra 15-20K gets the interview it is money well spent if not...
It may mean you go striaght in on Jet on 30-40k a year as an FO or without its 18-25k on turboprop.

Things are changing. Although out of the market for quite a few months now all I hear about is people getting jobs. Line trainers are commenting on low hours (and thats not a negative thing just more work for them on the handling but less on the bad habits, 6 months down the line no difference)

Its a personal prefference thing and a cost there will be 10% out there who can manage the route described and there is another 70% who will struggle and just make it and 20% who it will cost more for.

Personally as an ex FI i would recomend doing the PPL in the UK just to get into the British way of doing things but.... I didn't and now know how much extra work it meant and i did get through in min hours. BUt the CPL/IR was more work than it should have been.

People don't like being told you can do it cheaper than they did. Hence the multiple threads about intergrated and modular with both sides fighting there corners. With many FTO's posting covering with blind users ID's.

Unfortunatly even pilots that qualified 6 months ago are out of the system and really can't give a reasonable opinion on any flight school.

I used to think AAA were a bunch of fleecing bastards but the last 5 people who i have spoken to thought they had value for money and the price they paid seemed reasonable.

OAT I used to think were the best thing for ground but apprently all the decent instructors have left. And i also hear that the CAA is not happy with the full question bank CD rom which they are giving students which is why everyone is getting shafted with new questions coming on line every month.

My old land lord has just done his brush up with Bristol and wasn't very impressed with a couple of instructors especially the AKN who is appernetly the best in the knowledge side of things but can't teach a room to save his life.

Its a bloody nightmare choosing schools etc and 1 month down the line all previous opinions arn't really valid.

Good luck people I am glad i don't have to choose again.

MJ