Is this any way to treat a customer?

[ManAtTheBack]

ManAtTheBack arrived at Heathrow T4 today to find all flights to Amsterdam and Paris cancelled, with the consequent chaos ensuing. The result was a lot of redirection from one queue to another. I am surprised that Amsterdam and Paris are unable to cope with snow (although Brussels apparently can).

However, that is not the point of this posting. After queuing up for 20 minutes at Big Airways’ customer services, I became aware that the elderly lady standing behind me was becoming distressed. Apparently she had been expecting a wheelchair from her drop off point but it had not arrived. She had been directed (by whom I do not know) to the customer service queue. I tried to speak to a Big Airways’ member of staff but was ignored. I then spoke to a BAA member of staff but was told that the lady was Big Airways’ responsibility. I tried again to speak to a Big Airways’ staff but was again ignored. The lady appeared to become more distressed, and asked me to help load her luggage onto a trolley. As I did so I asked the BAA staff member if she would help. She made it clear it was not her responsibility. As I tried to find a Big Airways’ member of staff she then disappeared.

If this is how the industry chooses to treat its customers, is it any surprise that authorities take more interest in passenger rights?

[Final 3 Greens]

Manintheback

Firstly, let me applaud you for intervening on behalf of the lady in question, it was a caring act.

Secondly, let me say that I am appalled by the way the lady's needs were ignored, it could have been my mother who is in her 70s.

Unfortunately, the short haul air travel market is now cost driven, not service driven.

The people responsible for this are no other than us, the travelling public, who wish to buy low fares.

The emergence of Ryanair (in particular), but also easyJet and the others, has reformulated the business model for the whole market, which means that pax are now little more than numbers on a balance sheet and the customer experience reflects this.

In times of disruption, the new "lean and mean" airlines do not have enough people to deal with the problems ... I got dumped in Richmond, VA, at 10pm, a couple of years ago, when my flight was diverted due to weather and when I asked for assistance to find hotac (never been there before), the Delta agent pointed out the phone booths and said there should be a Yellow Pages with a hotel section. But then again, he was alone and dealing with FIVE diverted flights by himself.

[bealine]

I think by "Big Airways" you happen to mean BA? However, it doesn't matter a damn, because when disruption hits the fan, all airlines get thrown into all sorts of chaos - even more so, nowadays, because at the end of the day, it's all down to money!

1. Pax want to pay ever lower fares.

2. Airlines lose revenue and cut staff.

3. Airlines still lose revenue, re-negotiate contracts with suppliers (caterers, wheelchair operators etc)

Inevitably, service suffers as a result of the loss of revenue.

BTW, you don't say what you were doing at the Customer Service desk - waiting for refreshment vouchers and your two phone calls, I expect. If that's the case, that your waiting for your "EU Legislation Entitlement", then you can expect lengthy queues - no airline is going to employ extra staff to give these out willingly when the Railway Network, the Highways Agency, Transport for London etc doesn't have similar obligations!!!

......And, please save your breath referrring to "Why does Belgium not have the same problems as CDG or AMS?" It could be for any one of a number of reasons - the airports may not even be closed, just accepting fewer flights. No one at the airport would know, it's the local Air Traffic Control in AMS or CDG that decides who can, and who can't fly!

Having said all this, I agree that the sitiation is shoddy, and you shouldn't be treated this way - but then, as airline staff, it is also very unfair that we are put under this pressure as well!
2 short-haul flights cancelled = 290 passengers to be dealth with by 2 Customer Service desk staff! (.....and still the stupid s*ds expect to turn up at the same desk for a Hand Baggage Check In!!!)

Welcome to 2005's Airline World!!!

[rsoman]

Having said all this, I agree that the sitiation is shoddy, and you shouldn't be treated this way - but then, as airline staff, it is also very unfair that we are put under this pressure as well!
******

I thought handling pressure was part of the job profile of an airline industry customer service staff? In this cases , someone was obviously in distress, was asking help for a genuine reason, and apparently still it does not qualify for "service" from people who were in "customer service".

Grouse against management policies may or may not be valid, but what has the poor passenger to do with it?

[ManAtTheBack]

Bealine

I was in the queue to cancel my confirmed boarding card, as my travel plans had gone to pot. This would have allowed the Airline to reuse the seat for someone who had been passed around the queues for 8 hours after two days travelling from down under.

Secondly, I am not complaining about myself, as I am able to stand in queues, but about the treatment of someone more vulnerable.

Also the ticket I held (and perhaps the lady too) cost much more than the Ryanair and easyJet fares discussed.

Wouldn't it be nice if there was someone around to help when things go wrong?

[eal401]

1. Pax want to pay ever lower fares.
Funny how shoddy treatment always seems to end up being the passenger's fault.

:rolleyes:

[Final 3 Greens]

eal401

There are different grades of quality, e.g. a cheap car versus an expensive car, however both meet the required quality criteria for the product, but are very different in observable features. The quality criteria are ultimately set by the customers and their purchasing patterns.

In the airline world this applies too, e.g. Ryanair versus BA Club.

The issue with the short haul market is that few people are willing to pay for premium grade quality and the airlines are being responsive to market forces in reorienting their businesses for this brave new world.

Look at the Ryanair and easyJet financials for the past few years and compare those to the legacy carriers, then ask yourself what you would srtategy you would implement if you were the CEO of one of the latter.

In the past year or two, the legacy carriers have started to realise that they can operate as low cost carriers too, e.g. Aer Lingus, Swiss & Iberia (no free food or drink in economy.)

However, the major overhead for most legacy carriers is the cost per passenger kilometre of employing people.

Therefore, they scale back the work force, including ground staff and the grade of the quality of the product alters. This is fine for those buying on price and who are robust enough to look after themselves, who. However, it impacts on the vulnerable.

But ultimately who is reponsible for the situation?

It is those people who have made Ryanair and easyJet successful and that is the passengers.

The bottom line is that providing differentiation via enhanced grades of quality is a very expensive proposition and not compatible with adopting a low cost strategy, such as Ryanair adopts and which is driving the market response.

As a management consultant, I am a little surprised that you have not made this link.

BTW, I do not believe that there is any excuse for the situation that Manintheback encountered and he acted as a total gentleman in trying to assist. That situation was not about general levels of customer service, but rather supporting a vulnerable member of society.

[PAXboy]

A concomitant thread just started in R&N, Airline delays rise - and some blame stressed workers, based on a USA report. Different country, same problem. When we have become used to one sort of life, another kind is not pleasant. For those of us that have been travelling with legacy carriers (and airports) for 40 years, the change is sharp.

I think that it will be another five years before we see how it is going to play out in Europe. However, the likely paths are few and clearly laid out.

[bealine]

I thought handling pressure was part of the job profile of an airline industry customer service staff? In this cases , someone was obviously in distress, was asking help for a genuine reason, and apparently still it does not qualify for "service" from people who were in "customer service".

Grouse against management policies may or may not be valid, but what has the poor passenger to do with it?

........try handling 300 pax with 2 staff (and there's nothing we can do anyway!)
! That is not why any of us joined! Stress and pressure can be accepted when it's realistic.

The way we are being treated at the moment is atrocious - both by management and the passengers - at least 50% of whom are now rude, arrogant and obnoxious (compared to about 5% five years ago!)

If the situation doesn't improve, BA will shortly find itself with no front-line staff left at all - hundreds are handing in their notice weekly - and I will be joining them if the situation hasn't improved by Easter!!!

[Dylsexlic]

Pressure? Of course airports are under pressure. It has always been so. I remember working in T3 at Heathrow years ago (Pam Am were still flying). During any sort of disruption - weather being the obvious one - the terminal would be heaving with delayed passengers. Customer Service agents had to stand on the baggage belts just to get away from the check-in desks.

My point is that customer service was pretty poor then and that was without low cost carriers (well, apart from Arthur Frommer and Laker that is). The only thing that has really changed is customer expectations, and airlines are victims of their own success in this respect.

Whilst I tolerate this myself as I benefit from cheaper fares, why do these low-cost carriers treat me in such a patronising way? I don't need to be told to hold the handrail when leaving the aircraft nor to be careful descending the steps. If they really cared, they wouldn't then cram me and everyone on the flight into one bus (cost savings again) and fling me intimately around with my fellow passengers like a tumble drier on the journey to the terminal!!

Bealine - if this kind of stress isn't why you joined, then why wait until Easter to leave? Your situation is exactly the challenge of front-line customer service - to turn situations around for the benefit of everyone. I never did understand the kind of logic you talk about. Why are you there at all if it is not to clear the way for your customers? The airlines do not owe you a living! You are selling your skills to them and whilst they still need your skills (and you perform well), you will have a job and a responsibility to the airline and your customers. How staff feel about it (I'm not talking about physical abuse here) is largely irrelevant!

[Final 3 Greens]

I don't need to be told to hold the handrail when leaving the aircraft nor to be careful descending the steps No, but if you fall down and break your neck, their lawyers can argue that you were given reasonable warning ;)How staff feel about it (I'm not talking about physical abuse here) is largely irrelevant! That's got to be the dumbest statement I've read for a while - people's emotions determine, to a very great extent, how they perform.

[Dylsexlic]

Well, Final 3 Greens,
How staff feel about it (I'm not talking about physical abuse here) is largely irrelevant!

That's got to be the dumbest statement I've read for a while - people's emotions determine, to a very great extent, how they perform.

Professional Customer Service staff will always keep their feelings to themselves whilst in the public eye. Things are different these days though, I grant you. People are far more prepared to wear their hearts on their sleeves. Is this appropriate, do you think?

[Final 3 Greens]

Professional Customer Service staff will always keep their feelings to themselves whilst in the public eye I agree, but if they feel bad about work, this will inevitably impact on their motivation and thus their performance. The two observable behaviours are not mutually exclusive.

As to people showing ther feelings more, well society is a fluid and dynamic thing and it changes all the time.

Is it appropriate? Well that depends on your value systems and cultural norms, from which you will make a judgement.

[rsoman]

When a few airlines were virtual monopolies in their respective markets, there used to be a time when for all intents and purposes Customer Service Agents were kings and queens. As competition has evolved, the situation has progressively changed to "customer is king". Unfortunately many of the former kings and queens seems to have a great reluctance in abdicating their earlier lofty positions!

[Helli-Gurl]

Man at the Back, you wait until they get you on the plane!

I has the displeasure on flying a 'Big Airways' flight from LHR to BKK recently and my diabetic meal hadn't been loaded, so I complained, to ad insult to injury they thought I was travelling on a staff ticket, which I wasnt I had paid full fare....and the contempt that I was treated with on this flight for daring to comlain was awful even once they realised what donkeys they'd been and that I was a full fare assenger..not even an apology

There was no excuse for treating a fellow colleague like that, let alone a full fare paying passenger!

x

[manintheback]

quote

posted 4th March 2005 07:50
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Manintheback

Firstly, let me applaud you for intervening on behalf of the lady in question, it was a caring act.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks, but manattheback and I are different people - a little more care in choosing usernames may not go amiss next time.

[ManAtTheBack]

As ManINTheBack has pointed out, he and I (ManATTheBack are two different people.

On the point about competing with low cost carriers, BA and others heavily market their premium services, and at least on longhaul, generate a large part of their revenue from them. If they set themselves up as being premium, then this suggests a different approach to the low cost carriers.

[PAXboy]

ManAT You are correct but everyone now is trying to have it both ways. The boys in the City are dragging all companies to cut staff and customers want nothing but good service, which tends to require more staff!

Last summer BA hit the buffers and had to cancel flights due, almost soley, to lack of staff. I have no doubt that we will see more of this. The public have come to believe that everything may be infinitely reduced in price and maintained in quality. No, I am not arguning for the 1970s but we have met 'the crunch'.

Another, very simple example. A company that specialises in outdoor clothing and shoes. I have been buying their urban boots for some ten years. The last pair wore out and the catalogue proclaimed that the boots were still the same price and yet, somehow, improved. They are not. I will not bother you with the details but I shall never buy their boots again.

The real problem for pax at the moment is that all the carriers are doing the same thing. Even you are spending top money with them.
--------------------
"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.

[ManAtTheBack]

I am willing to spend more of my own (and yes, my employer's) money to get a better quality of service. I will not travel by Ryanair as I disagree with their customer service attitude. Others do, that is up to them.

The point is that when my employer sends me somewhere reasonably closeby, I have options of alternative airlines, the railways or the road network. Certainly, going to Brussels or Paris, the train is an attractive proposition.

For my own purposes, there is the option of staying at home.

I am not so naive as to expect to get it all for nothing. What I am looking for is a 'fair' combination of service and price. Those companies which come nearer get more of my (and my employer's) money. What most turns me away from any product or service is where the marketing blurb is so out of tune with the reality.

As a thought, some airlines operate in very low staff cost environments. However, they still manage to generate handsome losses. Cutting costs naturally has its limits. Quality has its cost but it has its benefits.

Finally, how much do airlines spend unnecessarily?

How much, for example, do they spend in sorting out mishandled baggage?

Cut the amount of mishandled baggage, save the costs of sorting it out and increase customer satisfaction.

(Sorry Paxboy, I'm getting idealistic again. We all know that losing bags just happens, it's nobodys fault, and nothing can be done about it)

[radeng]

At the end of the day, as I've said before, air travel is too cheap...

I too have had experience of BA not loading a diabetic meal - and I was back in World Traveller. The cabin crew fell over themselves to produce a suitable meal, while full of apologies for what wasn't their fault. Part of this maybe that it was a Gatwick based crew, not LHR.........I do find that BA at LGW seem to try that bit harder.

Althugh BA aren't perfect, I've found them consistently better than the rest. But I still maintain the problem is that air travel has got too cheap....

[Final 3 Greens]

Manattheback

Apologies for getting your handle wrong - mea culpa!

A complicating issue is the positioning of the legacy airlines.

To expand, there are 3 generic business strategies....

1 - Low cost, as embodied by Ryanair

2- Focus on a sector, e.g. BA, AF et al

3 - Differentiated, e.g. Fractional ownership

The issue is that airlines in sector 2 then complicate matters by having premium classes and short and long haul services.

In reality, short haul is a low cost market, where the majority of pax have made it very clear by their buying patterns that they are happy with a basic service, so that's the busihess driver.

But there is a premium market segment that they try to cater for too.

On long haul, where firms like BA are truly low cost in Y, there is a very strong premium segment, so schemes like the Executive Club exist to try and keep market share.

This creates a problem of mixed messages for the legacy airlines, that the locos don't have.

A saner solution would be to revert to BEA and BOAC and treat short and long haul as being completely different products and in the long term, it seems to me that this is where are heading.

But companies like BA have all kinds of legacy agreements in place that constrain this, no doubt that was why Go was started as a greenfield op.

So we, the pax, experience mixed messages and services.

[10secondsurvey]

This is a very interesting topic.

It is clear from comments on this topic and some others, that certain airline staff firmly believe that flying passengers may be quite legitimately treated like sh*te, as it is the passengers fault because the low cost airlines have become successful etc....so effectively if you are flying in economy tough luck. Dont expect staff to be courteous, or helpful in the slightest. Oh, and by the way, its quite OK for staff to treat you this way, apparently.

Then, and this is the bit that cracks me up, these very same airline staff come on this site and whinge about how passengers are becoming less friendly and how their job is awful, and so on. I mean, come on, what planet do you people live on? Treat your customers like sh*t and they will reciprocate. It is the same in all service industries. Wise up.

Recently I had first hand experience of a member of staff from the worlds favourite airline, where there were no queues, and no real pressure, and where i made polite reasonable requests/questions (simple trivial things not requiring financial or any real staff input), only to be met with a completely 'couldn't give a sh*t attitude by the staff member. To be fair to BA, usually the staff are good, but, as someone who really depends upon airlines, i really hope this 'attitude' does not become the norm in the aviation world.


As regards the passengers being to blame for the demise of standards, i do not agree at all. Many companies simply have policies, whereby the cheapest flight is always selected. Is this because the 'traditional' airlines fail to differentiate their product adequately to the people who make policy decisions?

I think the people who frequent this site who blame the punters for the standard of service they get should consider another service sector, hotels. Now in the UK there are many budget chains (travel inn etc..) who compete for business with what might be described as the 'traditional' hotels or 'legacy' hotels. But here is the difference, the non budget hotels are experts at differentiating the product or service they offer. When I check in to a 4 star big hotel chain, I dont expect poor treatment just because there is a budget hotel next door. In fact usually quite the opposite happens, the 4 star works even harder to demonstrate why it is worth staying in their rooms rather than the budget chains. Maybe the dimwits of the aviation industry I described at the start of this posting could learn something from that.

I think some people in the airlines use all of this on a personal level merely as an excuse to be sloppy in their work. Unfortunately, they do untold damage to the reputations of the majority hard working staff who do care

[PAXboy]

ManAT, I am glad that you realised the error of your ways, we can't be having any of that idealistic talk around here. :} Suitcases that are not misrouted? Hhm, might you mean that one company has control of all the stages and people from the moment they collect the bag from the pax, to the moment that they deliver at the destination? Hey, I think that you have something there - cancel all those outsourcing agreements. Oh and by the way, rely more on happy staff than on automation. :E

I think that the mixed messages of the carriers that 10sec refers to is a very good point - because the staff are getting mixed messages too! I agree that the short haul is now going down the cheap path for the forseeable future and those that want and are able to pay for better, should really think about saving their money. The only advantage to being in the front of the a/c now is the rapid exit and being able to get a larger carry-on case in the cabin. I can see no other benefits, particularly as quiet lounge access is readily available at the big airports, for a very reasonable price.

The varied response that 10sec mentions is also typical of a company that is slowly losing touch with itself. In one particular field of business that I am involved with, people ask whether they should use the big nationals or the small independent suppliers and my reply is - it makes no differance. The differance is in the staff in the particualr shop that you go into. In this case, the staff at one BA desk in one airport on one shift will be great and the ones that follow five minutes later, will be ghastly. I again refer to the R&N thread Airline delays rise - and some blame stressed workers.

I also agree that the BEA/BOAC issue was fudged when they did their review post 9/11. Since the two comapnies were made to marry by the govt of the day, there is no doubt that a split is the best long term solution but no one wanted to bite that off at the same time as tackling the post 9/11 slim down.

--------------------
"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.

[bealine]

.......For the Record (as I think it's me that is being referred to) I do not think it's acceptable for passengers to be treated like *****! Indeed, I sympathise with the OP's case.

I was merely trying to highlight the reason for it and to prepare you for the fact that worse is yet to come!!!

Rod Eddington will announce plans to be "Fit for Five" in July. This means an "end to outdated Union agreements" (in other words, further staff cuts in the front-line!!!)

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2095-1512492,00.html

[Final 3 Greens]

Bealine

The question is, does BA have the will to tackle some of the business (rather than the airline) issues?

I'm thinking about the non sharp end management layers in particular.

But there are some working practice issues (not so much in you manor, but at the other place) that need to be looked at ... but hopefully with a bit more intelligence than with the ATR system introduction.

[PAXboy]

Bealine, it was in support of you that I mentioned the demoralisation of staff! Yes, we can all quote companies where some of the staff are providing service that the company can no longer actually give. In deed may not want to give.

I agree with the views that forthcoming edicts from Ed. will also be picking at the symptoms and not the root cause. In this, he is no differrent to 99% of other CEOs. I would wager that he knows all about the root cause but is unwilling to tackle it. The reason for that, I think, is that no CEO has the ability to dismantle an empire. Every person that is a CEO/MD has the mindset to Build Build Build. When the end time arrives, they cannot, literally, cannot see how to fix things by going back to the small side. So they pick away at the edges and, eventually, are left with a company that is neither fish nor fowl.

At this point, the stock market may lose faith or they get bought up and, in the old days, governments bailed them out. Also, the CEO gets booted out by the board. The new CEO pledges that they will rebuild the company and other such stuff. This will almost certainly fail because the board have hired yet another CEO that can only Build, rather than Reassemble. Another old company that has seen it's best days and is in a simlar position is Marks & Spencer. I cannot guess how close their final landing is but certainly within five years. The problem for M&S is that there are dozens of other supermarkets and clothing stores taking their share. For BA, the problem is less severe in that the (local) long haul competion is only VS but there are, of course, dozens of other long haul 'legacy' airlines all hoping to last long enough to be able to buy up the routes of those that have failed. It is a game made more complex by international regulation and national pride.

It is my contention that, if a CEO had the vision to reduce the company by a significant amount and, yes, lots of people lose jobs and so on, then it is possible for a new era. But, 99% of companies will follow the same 'arc' from inception, through expansion to domination and then collapse. Think of how a star finishes it's life by becoming a White Giant and then a Red Dwarf? Life moves in cycles and the truly painful part of life today, is that the cycles move very much faster than before and, thanks to electronics, we can see it happening more clearly.

Sorry about another lengthy entry but it is a fascinating subject and, having been involved in commerce and government for 27 years, it is interesting to watch humans repeating the mistakes of other humans. I, of course, continue to repeat the mistakes of other humans too!

[ManAtTheBack]

Regarding the legacy carriers, and without wishing to be racist, the comment of the (apocryphal?) Irishman when asked for directions "If I were going there, I wouldn't start from here" seems relevant. However, they must

I think the threats being used by legacy carriers on their staff, with poor morale feeding back to the passengers will be counterproductive in the longer term, for anybody trying to offer premium services.

Bealine, I am sorry that you are considering your career. The industry needs a voice of reason amongst the chaos. However, you need to be supported by your employer, with a fair contract (in terms of respect etc) rather than being left to take the blame for its failings. On a happier note I saw an overworked BA customer service agent taking great trouble to assist a very confused elderly gentleman. Unfortunately, the negative messages sometimes overwhelm the positive ones.

I agree with F3G and Paxboy that BA's (and Lufthansa's etc) etc offer is confused. The terminal people may be dealing with a £19 european passenger one moment and a £000s Long Haul First Passenger the next. What does the sandwich given to me on a European Flight say about what I might receive if I choose to Long Haul First class.

One does not expect to see a Harrods or Fortnum and Mason in Peckham or an Aldi in Knightsbridge. Neither do I expect to see Fortnum's doing two for one on baked beans.

I note with interest LH and AF's experiments with dedicated premium services, although I have seen no figures on how well they are doing.

A split between short haul (low(ish) cost) and long haul (premium) seems a logical strategy for BA and a few others.

[nervous flyer]

our station only provides short-haul travel but obviously there are connections onto where you need to be.

We (my colleagues) and I have always tried to help any passenger who we think may need the extra assistance even when they don't ask. (sometimes results in a quick 'do you think they'll b ok?' to the person next to you)

Recently due to cuts we have all been made redundant and although on t first day, many passengers may think we were unhelpful, we have tried to continue as we were because it's not the particular passenger in front of you at x time on x days fault.

the only time we see problems is when loco pax expect hotels and transport when an a/c is cancelled or delayed due to snow and fog. (not an awful lot you can do about it tho?) it's the i paid a £10 for my flight but i want x, x & x!

generally keeping pax up to date with information and where they stand on compensation etc may not keep them happy :( but at least they know what to expect. (manchester passengers on a sun :E )

sorry just a humble csa's opinion