Crewing versus Human Rights

[MaximumPete]

Just wondering how many calls a crewing department can make before they breach Human Rights Article 8, which is a qualified right to "respect for private and family life".

The intereference must be:-

(a) Lawful

(b) Must serve a legitimate purpose

(c) Be necessary in a democratic society

(d) must not be discriminatory

Multiple roster changes degrade the family life and a pilot subjected to them on a regular basis, whilst his colleagues enjoy a stable roster, could be descriminatory.

I'm talking here of big changes, local flying being changed into nightstops and then back again, lates to earlies and vice versa, attempts to call a standby out for a nightstop prior to a day off.

Failure to be able to meet one's commitments as a parent, missing parents' evenings, school plays etc etc, in my book are a denial of Human Rights.

I appreciate that changes occur due to weather, unserviceability, aircraft changes etc etc but perhaps it may be time just to ask why you are being changed and is it necessary. Twenty-one roster changes in four days is not uncommon in one low cost airline.

You have Rights!

Food for thought ladies and gentlemen.

Safe flying

MP;)

[Bealzebub]

"Failure to be able to meet one's commitments as a parent, missing parents' evenings, school plays etc etc, in my book are a denial of Human Rights."

I can't help but smile. Have you ever seen what happens out there in the human world ? Just watch the news or pick up a newspaper. I can't actually recall a human rights news item about a middle class airline pilot who missed a school play or a parents evening !

Even people with what might be termed 9 to 5 jobs are often unable to attend all such functions and others too, for a whole host of reasons.

I have been doing this job for 25 years and have more kids than your average. I often have to miss a school event because of the job. I had actually assumed that would be the case when I started out. Most of the time "Mum" does the honours, as we work as a team. When we want to discuss the offsprings progress most schools are more than happy to make time available for a discussion on a one to one basis.

I have always thought that my job has actually enabled me to provide a very high standard of living for my family. It enables us to do things that many other families might struggle to achieve. Families are adaptable things and tend to mould themselves to the realities of their members.

I agree that there are a great many nuisance factors in this job. However I rather suspect that is the case with many other lines of employment. I suspect that it also beats unemployment hands down!

Roster changes are a feature of the job in many airlines, and as fascinating as it is to speculate on the reasons for them, the reality is if you are on a work day, then as we all know anything might happen. Most changes are now notified by e-mail so we can watch them supercede one another. It is only the last one we ever carry out.

Whatever "Human rights" may be in "your book", I doubt that Article 8 of the European convention used that as its point of reference, but even if it did and you elect to test it, I am less than confident you will be sucessful.

I am reminded of my late father who served in the military. He rarely knew where he or his family would be from one year to the next. There were good and bad aspects to that, but as anyone might argue, that was the job he elected to undertake. If you really hate the lifestyle and failed to understand what it likely involved, you could always seek different employment, either with another company or in a different career. Unless of course that would also infringe on your "Human rights" in some way.
;)

P.S. I have just read your "interests" on your profile. I rest my case !
:D

[MaximumPete]

Yes, I agree entirely with your arguments. That is why you get a decent screw. I call it FAF, **** About Factor, but what if you don't have the luxury of e-mails and the phone's always ringing, and how come it's always just when the meal has been served.

Kids just gone to bed, watching the telly, and you're getting the tenth change from crewing that day, changing you from a late next day to an an early. I'm not talking about piddling little changes here.

Just where do you draw the line?

I've no idea.

MP:)

[fireflybob]

>Just where do you draw the line?<

Well, I suppose the point is you have to use your "personal power" and draw a line - somewhere!

A long while ago I went on an evening class about Assertiveness and it was well worth attending. By the way, being assertive does not mean aggressive and/or getting you own way but it's all about negotiating a win/win situation.

The crewing officers in this situation have all my sympathies and we must be careful not to shoot the messenger.

One tactic if you are feel you are being imposed on is to ask for more time and or information. When crewing (or anyone come to that) calls you on the phone they are in control. Simply say that they have called at a difficut time and that you will call them back in ten minutes. When you call them back they YOU are in control of the conversation! You have also had time to compose yourself and perhaps even have a peep at the "rule book" to see where you stand.

This is, of course, a short term solution. In the longer term you might have to decide whether you want to continue working for the same company. The job strategy I would commend is threefold:-

1. Mentally quit your job.
2. Whilst in the job act as professionally as possible and aim to be a "model" employee - reason - track record!
3. Whilst in the current job look for the next one - better to move when YOU want to rather than have it forced on you by corporate "downsizing" or company failure etc.

Another way of assessing your current situation is to imagine every part of your life (ie career, family, health, spiritual, hobby etc) as the spoke on a bicycle wheel. Score 0 and the centre and 10 at the rim of the wheel and score yourself on each area and then join up the points on each spoke. If you have a nice round "wheel" you have a balanced life. If it's all wonky then there is something that it going to make you feel out of balance. Much of life is about balance. Years ago i gave my soul to my job but I have learned that this is not a very good idea!

Good Luck

[Bealzebub]

Well it depends if you are on your time or their meter. If they ring you during a duty period such as a standby, then you are paid to take as many calls as they want to make I suppose. On the other hand if they are ringing you in your own free time ( off duty) to notify you of something, then it really depends if you take the call or not.

These days with caller ID you can normally see who is calling before you answer. Even where that is not the case, you can always get somebody else to answer, let the answerphone pick up or just ignore the call ( turn the ringer down if it is likely to wake up the kids). If you don't acknowledge the call they haven't served it , and will either have to find someone else, or wait until they can next assure contacting you in a duty period.

Where you draw the line is up to you. I doubt they are doing it just to annoy you even though it sometimes seems like it. If you don't want to be disturbed by them then take the same precautions you would if you didn't want to be disturbed by anyone else. Of course there are times when you are contractually available to be disturbed by them and that is par for the course.

Really, you don't have the luxury of e-mail ???
:ooh:

[MaximumPete]

Beazlebub

In answer to your last question.....Nope and it's all paper and pencil stuff.....plus a big bottle of Tipex.

Crewing officers have a thankless task and in the main try and do their level best with the resources they have available...all too often too little. I wouldn't touch their job with a barge-pole.

MP;)

[Jump Complete]

As I don't work for an airline, I havn't expereinced crewing calling me, although it does happen to some extent with the flying I do.

However, I do have alot of experience of it happening with my (pre-flying) care jobs. I have often used the tecnique suggested by fireflybob of saying I will call back in ten minutes if I got a call to work in off time. It gave me time to consider whether I wanted to do the extra work, if I was legitamatley supposed to be somewhere else, or time to think of a good excuse! Like fireflybob says, it puts you back into control. Obviously, most companies (in care work and in airlines,) hopefully wouldn't call you in unless it was neccasary. Some are less thoughtfull and then perhaps its time to move on. However, it is much easier (especially if you are experienced) to find a better care job than get a flying job!)
In a round-the-clock operation like a care-home as in aviation, anti-social hours and personal life distruption are part of the job. (Bear in mind please, that even a relatively low paid T-P FO gets around twice what a good care worker earns!)
Friends that have decent 'Nine to Five' jobs often have disruption, overtime, meetings that entail overnight stays in some ****e business hotel in the midlands, and get to the pub on a planned night out only to go home early because they're too shagged out after the week to enjoy themselves. I'm not yet earning much as a pilot should (about the same as I was as a care worker) but they often say to me "I wish I was doing what you are doing. I hate my job"
I think life is tough outside of aviation too!

[Airbus Girl]

Well apparently now it is someone's human right to disregard wearing school uniform because everyone has a right to their religion.
Well OK, I'm a Christian and an airline pilot and I'd therefore like every Sunday off to go to Church please.
As for crewing, I never answer the phone if its work, unless I am on standby. Get the BT service which shows the number of the caller then you don't have to pick up.
Or even better, get another line.

[Miserlou]

I considered not commenting on this as it is so obviously a wind up, but here goes.

The relationship between you and your employer is purely a matter for you and your employer(you may also use a union to represent you but it goes no further than that).

If you don't like the smell....

Try getting a job flying for the UN, somewhere where you can't go out when you're not flying for fear of being shot or mugged, or because you don't like the smell (or sight) of rotting corpses at the side of the road.

Having the audacity to try to argue human rights for a working airline pilot is beyond me.

[411A]

Try a good quality telephone answering machine...has always workd for me.

[JB007]

I suspect this is a wind-up!

But, i'll bite! Having worked in Ops/Crewing for 10 years and now fly professionally, I have an understanding better than most what those guys have to work with - and it's the management that decide the crew numbers and Commercial that decide the flying programme - all of which adds up to us keeping our jobs!

Some of the attitudes here are unreal! Maximum Pete get a new job mate! Airbus Girl - As for crewing, I never answer the phone if its work, unless I am on standby. Or even better, get another line.
You must be such a joy to deal with!!!!

[Maximum]

Miserlou
Having the audacity to try to argue human rights for a working airline pilot is beyond me.
So by inference you're saying that a working airline pilot doesn't have any human rights?
And by the way, the comparison you make with life in extremis hardly validates your argument, does it?

JB007
What's wrong with not answering the phone outside working hours? Don't you want a life? The relationship between employer and employee is not a charity in either direction. In my long experience, answering the phone to crewing outside contactable hours is simply a recipe for being manipulated unfairly by a company who sees you as a soft touch. If no-one answered the phone in this way, airlines would have to bring crewing levels up to more sensible numbers. And for those who argue this would make companies go bust and we'd all lose our jobs, I say think again. They'd simply have to increase ticket prices a touch to more sensible levels at worst.

And funnily enough, the upshot of this would also be an easier life for crewing.:)

[Miserlou]

What I'm saying Maximum, is that the life of an airline pilot is far removed from the issues which the Human Rights Act was created to protect.

My employer called to change my schedule recently; they are allowed to do this up to 8 days before the date.
This inconvenienced my wife ia little but when she began to moan I had to cut her short. I have chosen my employer and our relationship provides for our house, food, clothes, car, holidays. etc. whilst they earn a good deal more for my services than they pay me, but that's OK.

I often use the 'I'll call back in 10 minutes' line to buy time and find out whether I really want or need the extra time off or money for an extra duty, or to see if I can arrange alternative plans so as to be able to take the extra duty. I do like to help where I can.

The other side of the coin for the crewing staff is that it is ceaper to pay someone a higher rate for extra duties than it is to employ an extra crew member, and there is always someone who needs the extra money!

[timzsta]

In this world the trouble of saying "yes" all the time, as mentioned above, is that your employer thinks you are a soft touch. And then the one time you say no you end up with a black mark against your name because they just expect you to do it.

I haven't got the flying job yet but in my present job because I live closest to wear I work, whenever an extra bod is needed in a hurry to help out I get the call first. Yes I like the extra bit of cash that comes now and then but as a result sometimes you do get taken for granted. It pays everynow and then to say "no". You can come up with any sort of excuse ie - "it's my day off and I have been down the pub this afternoon" is one of my favourites.

Crewing have got to be like the taxman really - everybody hates them but they are only doing their job.

[MaximumPete]

JB007

No it's not a wind-up!

During thirty-five years of commercial flying I missed the following:-

1. My son's wedding. He told me the date after the rosters were
published.

2. Umpteen parents evenings, school plays etc

3. Umpteen dinners cancelled. You don't get invited again after
the third no-show.

4. Unable to join a football team or take part in any team sport.

The list is endless.

Do I resent this? No. It goes with the job.

Given my life again I would choose the same profession, despite it's ups and downs, if you will excuse the pun.

BTW, I don't do work. I'm very happily retired on a decent pension thanks to the very hard work put in by BALPA over the years.

MP;)

[JB007]

Maximum
Nothing wrong at all with ignoring the phone, if thats how you want to work, personally, my view is not that the company are taking the p!ss but they do need some help, it works both ways - I generally get what I want in return for lending a hand....everyone's happy. I guess it's my Victorian attitude to work!!!!!

Maximum Pete
BTW, I don't do work. I'm very happily retired on a decent pension thanks to the very hard work put in by BALPA over the years

Laughing very loudly! You mean to say, after starting this topic, your actually retired!!!! Can I suggest you find a hobby....but then you did mention BALPA, so it all makes sense now!!!!!

[Miserlou]

Best excuse is as just mentioned, "I'd læove to fly and I will as soon as I'm sober!"

[MaximumPete]

JB007

I'm not laughing and this a genuine concern for the "abuse" that is going on within the industry, particularly amongst the low cost airlines. This may be because it is predominently shorthaul. In the "bad old days" we used to fly nine, yes nine earlies, in a row without a day off.

Been there, done that!

Yes!!!, I'm really really retired and only travel in the back of aeroplanes, preferably not too far from the tea trolley.

I have hobbies as you will see from my profile, which is a little out of date as I now enjoy working as a volunteer for the National Trust one day a week and assist in the Guild pilot assessment scheme. I'll be on the stand at the Renaissance Hotel on the 19th March as well as helping at Cranwell.

Occassionally I help with careers advice in the local schools, having been checked out by OFSTED.

And I pay UK taxes on my pension under PAYE, doing my bit to keep the government going.

MP;)

[JB007]

Maximum Pete,

I have to confess - one of the airlines I was in Crew Control for was a certain low-cost airline now no-longer with us....and crew did work hard day after day....and I was one of those pain up the arses in Crewing pestering people....but I had a job to do.

So are you going to the GAPAN dinner in May ? We could probably have a long discussion over this one so let's do it whilst getting drunk eh ???

[MaximumPete]

Hope to go.

MP;)