View Full Version : Mysterious case of the "missing" fuel!
AVeight
2nd Mar 2005, 14:30
Seems that Mr Steve Fossett's solo round the world attempt with the Global Flyer may be in jeopardy due to what the operations team are calling "missing" fuel! The team are reporting that the aircraft has 15% less fuel than what it should actually have!!
Now here is a question for you guys.......How do you misplace fuel?!! I've misplaced my pants before but have never nor do I believe that I will ever be responsible for misplacing fuel!!! Why can't they just admit that the screwed up and actually say "well we actually put 15% less fuel than what we actually needed!"
Konkordski
2nd Mar 2005, 14:39
Better not choose Manchester as an alternate then, it'll be all over the press... :)
brakedwell
2nd Mar 2005, 14:41
Having been cold soaked at 45000ft for 36 hours, the remaining fuel must have shrunk at bit. I wonder if this has anything to do with the low fuel reading.
AVeight
2nd Mar 2005, 14:46
brakedwell See.... that would be the most logical answer....but a part of me is thinking that surely they would have taken differences in temperatures at altitude into account!! I'm guessing that there would be some differences but would they be enough to make such a huge difference and put the whole attempt in jeopardy?
Global Pilot
2nd Mar 2005, 14:58
AVeight, where are the operations team are reporting about "missing" fuel! I have been monitoring progress on their website and there is nothing mentioned there or am I missing something......??
AVeight
2nd Mar 2005, 15:03
Global Pilot Good afternoon....it's being reported on Sky news. The team need to make a decision within the next couple of hours on whether to proceed or not. The only way that it can now be done, it is reported, is with tail winds.
Well he has just coasted out over Japan, next option Hawaii, then press for Mexico or the USA.
His take off point was chosen in the centre of the USA to ensure that, even if he fell short, he would be overland with recovery options.
Two questions if anyone knows the figures. Will a 15% fuel deficit allow him to reach the west coast? If so, will it also allow the required distance to be covered, even if he does not reach his planned destination?
ferrydude
2nd Mar 2005, 15:32
"Having been cold soaked at 45000ft for 36 hours, the remaining fuel must have shrunk at bit. I wonder if this has anything to do with the low fuel reading."
Temperature would not affect the reading if they are using the industry standard capacitance type indicating system. I would be surprised if Rutan designed anything else.
Flying Mech
2nd Mar 2005, 15:41
Does anybody know the number of main and or Aux fuel tanks on this A/C? or is it just one large Tank that holds the total fuel onboard?
I would hazard a guess that a fuel leak in one of the fuel tanks would account for the "Missing" Fuel altough if that were true surely ther would be a noticable Imbalance which would have to be Trmmed out. This application of Trim would go someway towards confirming the Fuel Leak Theory.
Also they no the total capacity of the Tanks. They know theUplift and Presumably the Burn so they should be able to work out the Total onboard which should match the Fuel Indicated. If not more than Likely you have a Leak as it is exterely unlikely to have bad indication on a New A/C
Global Pilot
2nd Mar 2005, 15:49
AVeight, thanks for that. Now keeping one eye on the globalflyer site and another on Sky News.
brain fade
2nd Mar 2005, 15:54
It may be a ruse to generate publicity for when he arrives. You can imagine the headlines. Will he..........or wont he??????
Airbubba
2nd Mar 2005, 16:03
>>Does anybody know the number of main and or Aux fuel tanks on this A/C? or is it just one large Tank that holds the total fuel onboard?<<
According to the flurry of news reports today, it has 13 tanks (kinda like a Douglas or Lockheed airliner <g>).
Konkordski
2nd Mar 2005, 16:32
I smell an imperial/metric conversion cock-up ;)
Airbubba
2nd Mar 2005, 16:44
Fuel - a big worry for Steve and the attempt
Mission Control have released a statement this morning regarding a loss of fuel in the early hours of Steve Fossett’s flight, which could lead to the attempt being abandoned.
There was a discrepancy of 2,600 pounds in readings between the fuel burn and a series of probes in the main beams of the Virgin Atlantic GlobalFlyer in the first three and a half hours of the flight.
During last night, Mission Control carried out various tests, but still know little as to why and how the problem occurred. Early flight fuel readings have been concluded to be ’not accurate’, and the lower reading of the amount of fuel onboard is the one that has been taken into account by the team for safety reasons.
Jon Karkow from Scaled Composites was unable to say whether it was due to leakage or evaporation. "We really don’t know what it is... It's more than likely a system issue, such as a fuel venting line. It's been very puzzling for us, and we saw it quite early on."
...The average tailwind speed needed for Steve to successfully complete the round the world circuit is 58 knots and so far they are relatively hopeful as the winds have been around this speed.
When this information was released at 14:00 UTC, Steve was already over 37 hours into the flight and had 5,500 pounds of fuel left.
In a couple of hours, Mission Control and Steve will have to decide whether is it safe to depart Japanese airspace for the Pacific Ocean, which is the largest ocean in the world and the most vunerable part of the route. The fuel will continue to be monitored closely up until this point and, if Steve decides he will attempt to cross the Pacific Ocean, another decision on the attempt's continuation will be made at about halfway across on approach to Hawaii...
http://www.virginatlanticglobalflyer.com/News/8am_tues_update.jsp
scanscanscan
2nd Mar 2005, 16:56
Sounds like a pilot error and warning letter job to me.
He needs to call movement control Gulf Air, fess up and seek their advice, of course it could take a month or two to arrive due meetings etc.
Guess it was another of thoes infamous min fuel flight plans.
BEagle
2nd Mar 2005, 17:00
56 years ago today the first round-the-world-non-stop flight was completed by Capt James Gallagher and his 13-man USAF crew.
36 years ago today, Concorde made her maiden flight at Toulouse.
Good luck to Captain Fossett - hope the fuel management issue is resolved OK!
Here's hoping he isn't navigating from the website. According to the "mission status" he's currently at LONGITUDE N33.26920 and LATITUDE E146.22875. Erm....something not quite right there, methinks.
Jordan D
2nd Mar 2005, 17:48
For those who want an article link:BBC News Online (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4312059.stm)
Cakov - the figure (00:47:10UTC hours) is the time he got airborne at the start of his flight ... UTC is another way of saying GMT or Zulu ....
next Stop: Hawaii
Jordan
Best of luck to the guy and his team.
I made this trip in the USAF back in 1990.
With many stops of course.
It took 8 days but was one of the best flights I ever had.
I hope the fuel problem is sorted out and he makes aviation history.
frangatang
2nd Mar 2005, 18:10
Cant he get the bearded wonder to sort him out ,after all he is the backup pilot...without a PPL!
The fuel temprature must be becoming a critical issue.
Jet A-1 freeze point is -50c
I dont have my charts in front of me now but if I remember correctly the OAT at 35,000 is -56c.
With the amount of time he has spent at above 40,000 feet this must be a concern.
I am sure his engine has some sort of fuel heat ability.
But may affect his quantity indicating system.
Also fuel used indicators have a margin of error.
The error is slight but after a flight of this endurance may become a consideration.
Maybe someone that knows more about this aircraft and its limitations can comment further.
reynoldsno1
2nd Mar 2005, 18:43
Could be a combination of things - there might have been excessive venting after take-off initially?. I know that some polar flights into Hong Kong have had a fuel freezing problem over the past few months
anyhow .... good luck, Steve, may the wind gods be with you
McGinty
2nd Mar 2005, 19:04
I did read somewhere that this plane had never been completely filled to the brim with fuel before this actual record-breaking attempt.
If this is true, then this prior lack of testing of fuel tank integrity seems folly indeed. ... as is the apparent lack of calibration and matching of fuel burn rates and tank depletion rates.
poorwanderingwun
2nd Mar 2005, 19:49
Wonderful....the luxuary of pontificating on all these possibilites while sitting comfortably at our lap-tops after a glass or 2 of wine....
On the other hand we could be mulling them over while alone at 45000 + ft over the ocean, many thousands of miles from home, fatigued beyond description and just wishing it was all over.....
RatherBeFlying
2nd Mar 2005, 20:01
After 42 hours of flight, following the loss of 2,600 lbs of fuel in the early stages of the flight, Steve Fossett has decided to cross the Pacific Ocean at least as far a Hawaii.
Despite the earlier loss of fuel that means Steve may possibly not make it back to Salina, he will aim to get as far a Hawaii where he will re-assess the situation. Steve and Mission Control are taking one step at a time.
Steve is nearly in daylight and will to continue have 100 knot tailwinds assisting his flight until Hawaii. After this point, however, the winds are expected to be only around 40 knots, which could cause problems as Steve needs at least 58 knots to make his fuel last all the way in.
Flying Mech
2nd Mar 2005, 20:03
Maybe Steve is thinking now that he should have had Air to Air Refuelling Mod fitted as this would have done 2 things
A: Solved the problem of a fuel Leak leaving him slightly short of Fuel
B:Solved the problem that one of the earlier Posters had earlier of JET A1 freezing due to cold soak as he could uplift fuel at any time during the trip
ferrydude
2nd Mar 2005, 20:12
With air to air refueling capability, what would be the point of the trip?
arcniz
2nd Mar 2005, 20:25
Virgin Atlantic GlobalFlyer
Ironic it is that this very modern & sophisticated aircraft is suffering from powered aviation's "second oldest problem", the loss or uncertain availability of mission-critical fuel.
Fuel shortage, when timely discovered, is an aerial devil one can ponder at some length, usually without hope of cure. Forty some years after the fact, I can still see exactly in memory the bent-over wire standing proud from the cowl just forward of the windscreen in a J3 Piper Cub, inexorably sinking out of view as the the cork floating it in the single fuel tank reached toward the bottom. In a plane with no electrics, no radios, and very basic instruments, the message was loud and unmistakeable, although I can remember once or twice wondering, with the boundless optimism of youth, if the cork might be malfunctioning.
The Scaled Composites folks are very serious about their instrumentation and their testing, so, in addition to the standard measures, they should be prepared and able to do a simple acceleration test procedure to "weigh" their aircraft at any point in flight and thus determine the actual current fuel on-board. From this we may infer that the unexplained loss is known to not be continuing at a high rate.
Based on info cited above, the actual aircraft + fuel weight at the 1400 UTC point would be 3350+5500=8850, and the planned/expected weight would be 8850+2600=11450 (29 percent heavier).
Given that these numbers are quite far apart, the keyword is probably "Aloha".
fireflybob
2nd Mar 2005, 20:36
First of the very best of luck to Steve Fosset and I really hope he makes it all the way round.
I can't help noticing that on all these record attempts they always seem to come up with some "crisis" half way round (happened with Ellen MacArthurs round globe voyage) and that this tends yo keep it higher profile in the media - as indeed it should be!!
Paul Wilson
2nd Mar 2005, 20:58
There is no issue from freezing of fuel, according to the website they are using low freezing temp fuel, presumably the stuff available in Russia which I read about on here a good while ago.
From the website
The fuel itself will be a special fuel that has a much lower freezing point that regular aviation fuel
Airbubba
3rd Mar 2005, 03:29
I can see him now on AirNav Flight Tracker under the callsign of Virgin 101 (unless this is his chase plane) as he cuts southeast across the flow of airliners from the mainland north of Hawaii. Will watch to see if he makes a turn back to HNL, his ground speed has slowed to about 280 knots.
It's an odd course (114 degrees true) for Kansas from what I can see...
_______________________________
Well, looks like he's making a turn, but it's not back to HNL:
Mission Status: Steve says "Let's go for it!"
At 21:30CST (03:30UCT) Steve Fossett relayed by satellite phone to Virgin Atlantic GlobalFlyer Mission Control Director Kevin Stass "let's go for it". Strong tailwinds across the Pacific from the coast of Japan carried
Steve between 100knots -130knots from the coast of Japan to Hawaii, bringing the round-the-world non-stop circumnavigation world record back within his grasp.
Steve Fossett, commented: "I hit the jetstream very well which has put us in a better fuel position. I have every hope of making it to Salina tomorrow."
BoeingMEL
3rd Mar 2005, 06:16
It was repeatedly claimed in the media that Richard Branson was the "standby pilot" for this attempt and would fly the aircraft if Fossett was unable to. Of course, he would need a pilot's licence, night rating and instrument rating but not one of my calls, emails or letters about Mr B's qualifications have been acknowledged or replied to. Wonder why? MOre drama for the press methinks... just like gas-tanks "falling" from their balloon. Great technology but just too much bull5hit for many folks. bm
BEagle
3rd Mar 2005, 06:44
Perhaps. But hardly important right now with the Virgin Atlantic Global Flyer running perilously close to min fuel required to complete the attempt.
Good for Steve Fossett and Sir Richard Branson for showing that there are at least some true aviation folk left in the sterile world of 2005!
I agree with your post 100% BEagle - good luck to all involved for a successful ending especially to Steve Fossett
:ok:
aa
FormerFlyer
3rd Mar 2005, 07:19
When will his media cricus/PR stunt re: "lost" fuel finish? Or more appropriately when is it scheduled to finish :E
cheers ;)
FF
It sounds like a lot of jealous back-biting going on here.
Hey, the guy is rich, rich, rich, through his own efforts. He had this thing built, he's flying it, albeit with a bit of sponsorship from another annoyingly successful extrovert, and he can probably figure out how to cope with this fuel problem.
If there is a bid for publicity in all of this I bet it would not be coming from Mr Fossett but from someone on the ground. How many of us would trade places with him and how fast? Me for one! It sounds like a wonderful adventure, even if he ends up taking a bit of a swim rather than landing in Kansas.
Come to that, I have been in Kansas; I would rather be neck-deep in the Pacific, all else being equal. That is the place of which it was said, the problem is that there is no there, there.
under_exposed
3rd Mar 2005, 11:37
I read on their site that
At 04:00UTC this evening, Steve had 3,200 pounds of fuel remaining and fuel consumption has dropped to around 160 pounds per hour.At 04:00UTC this evening, Steve had 3,200 pounds of fuel remaining and fuel consumption has dropped to around 160 pounds per hour.
Does this not mean he has fuel until 00:00UTC? Would this not be sufficent to reach New York if he so wished?
brockenspectre
3rd Mar 2005, 12:12
For a second Proon thread on topic check out JetBlast here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=165263) :ok:
unwiseowl
3rd Mar 2005, 14:08
Should be able to glide the last 250 miles!
petitfromage
3rd Mar 2005, 14:17
Personally Im sure the Fuel Crisis was to boost Press attention....but never the less, its an outstanding feat; not just of technology but of human endurance (and fatigue management).
Fosset has been airborne for 63hrs as I type this. Only a few hrs to go....and he'll land with 6+hrs fuel in tanks; amazing really.
According to the website, GlobalFlyer, at the light weights its at now, will not descend with the engine at idle! Apparently you have to lower the gear to descend......so without jinxing the man, it seems he could indeed glide to his heros welcome.
Bon chance, enjoy your porcelin toilet and a horizontal sleep. :cool:
AVeight
3rd Mar 2005, 14:34
We should all learn later on today whether Mr Fossett makes it or not....he is expect to land at approx. 6pm.
Good luck to him and agree with BEagle, nice to see some real aviation going on!
Think they should change the motto on the web site to read......
"One man One plane One World No Fuel"
Good luck to Steve Fossett, if he succeeds this will be one of the great feats of aviation history.
Airbubba
3rd Mar 2005, 16:06
>>We should all learn later on today whether Mr Fossett makes it or not....he is expect to land at approx. 6pm. <<
He's now over Colorado, latest ETA is 1917 UTC. Sir Richard is back in Kansas anticipating the arrival.
Airbubba
3rd Mar 2005, 17:36
1835 UTC: The Scaled Composites Starship N514RS did a rendezvous a little over 200 nm from SLN and now is smoking back to base at 343 knots over the ground. The GlobalFlyer is 100 nm out, descending through FL 229 and doing 129 knots over the ground...
av8boy
3rd Mar 2005, 17:37
At this point the chase plane (514RS) has pulled ahead and is doing around 200 knots more than VIR101. I'd recon around 70 miles to run right now at around 1840z. VIR101 is in coast at the moment, but looks like he's out of FL220 on the way down...
Dave
SilsoeSid
3rd Mar 2005, 18:28
Due to arrive in 9 mins
http://www.virginatlanticglobalflyer.com/Home/index.jsp
Steve in Kansas
Jordan D
3rd Mar 2005, 18:37
Live streaming now on BBC News Online ... he is on finals ...
Jordan
Clearance from the tower RWY17........
He is down, he has made it, what a fantastic achievement.
:) :) :)
aa
Few Cloudy
3rd Mar 2005, 18:54
Well done those guys - oh and all on one engine too....
BOPralph
3rd Mar 2005, 19:13
Brilliant effort Steve and team....
.....by the way MOL would like you to help with a re-write of the JAA FTL
fireflybob
3rd Mar 2005, 19:16
What a fantastic achievement and the pilot is 60 years old!!
Steve and team - I salute you all - no mean feat and they should be able to dine out on this one for a long time!
Just listened to him after landing ..... what a pleasant chap he is ....
Congrats to him and all the team ....... :ok:
brabazon
3rd Mar 2005, 19:49
Amazing what one pilot and one engine can do!
Global Pilot
3rd Mar 2005, 21:26
KSLN-KSLN 67hr 03'
That is one log book entry you won't see everyday!
ShenziRubani
3rd Mar 2005, 22:01
Well done Steve and the Team. What an achievement, what an effort. Yes, it would be funny to have that on my logbook, KSLN-KSLN - 67hr03. I guess I'll have to try on the sim:cool:
G-KEST
3rd Mar 2005, 22:02
A remarkable achievement by all involved. Congratulations.
Cheers,
Trapper 69
visibility3miles
3rd Mar 2005, 23:11
KSLN-KSLN 67hr 03'
That is one log book entry you won't see everyday!
LOL!
Great job! :ok: :ok: :ok:
Barry Cuda
4th Mar 2005, 08:17
Brilliant, now all you have to do is work out how this is helpful to the millions of starving people throughout the world where the money would have been better spent...
(Well, somebody had to say it!)
Jump Complete
4th Mar 2005, 16:02
I was miffed that BBC news last night didn't mention it AT ALL, I think ITN mentioned it to about 3 seconds and most of the rest of the news was pretty rubbish anyway. Chanel 5 gave it about a minute (showed the landing) in their 5 news update between the film.
rubik101
4th Mar 2005, 18:41
So the 15% was probably just Sky news phishing for ratings once again.
Well done to the Team.
Do we compare this in any way to Ellen McArthur and her 71 day trip?
16 blades
4th Mar 2005, 23:22
KSLN-KSLN 67hr 03'
That is one log book entry you won't see everyday!
Ironic that it wouldn't count as a "qualifying cross-country flight"!
Well done, Steve & the team!
16B
brain fade
5th Mar 2005, 00:42
Has Steve Fossett done the S/E IFR lobby any good here? After all...............;)
Global Pilot
5th Mar 2005, 17:14
16Blades
"Ironic that it wouldn't count as a "qualifying cross-country flight"!
Correct but it should qualify under "cross-many countries"!
cwatters
6th Mar 2005, 14:54
Congratulations to all concerned!
Shame there wasn't more news coverage before the fuel leak story broke.
Skylark_air
10th Mar 2005, 21:59
One evening when I was returning to Yorkshire from Birmingham International on Virgin Trains during the rush hour train which was more like a London Tube Train than an express, I commended to a fellow passenger about how much stuff they have managed to cram into such a small space in their buffet car.
We came to the conclusion that all this Balloon Travel must be getting to Branson's Head.
I think Branson wanted to travel on this flight, but after a string of failed attempts in numerous balloons I bet he thought it was too big a risk!
I recall that on one of his attempts, he was over the North Atlantic when all of a sudden, they heard this really loud noise, simular to the sound of a gun, but more constant.
They looked out the window, and the Ballonist who was flying with Branson said something to the effect of:
BP "We need to get out of here"
RB "Why?"
BP "Well I don't wish to alarm you, but I've just seen a concorde fly past us, and I think we should probably get out of the vacinity before the second one uses us for target practice"