Desperately in need of a job

[Lanun]

When we were young, dreaming to be a pilot and flying high in the sky seemed impossible but eventually, it did happened... Since that day on, I believe that anything can happen if you make the effort.

Now, when you're a pilot dreaming to work in an airline and getting in between the stewardess' legs, it never seemed impossible but I was wrong. Most airlines in the world wants 1000 over jet hours experience or at least a rating. It seemed stupid or should I say the flying academies we come from are at fault? I don't think so...

Most graduates comes out with a frozen ATPL, 200 piston hours and nothing less. Doesn't it sound silly when you hear an AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOTS LICENSE holder cannot get a job in an AIRLINE???!!! Reason is because he has lack of experience. What other choices does a young graduate has? Definitly he needs to work somewhere for a start to get experience don't they? Charter flight companies mostly uses multi-engines but still a piston engine. Not good enough for airlines still!!! Most graduates worked in charter companies, flying clubs, etc up to thousands of hours and when they applied for a job with an airline, they got F'd in the A.

If airlines in the world still remains stubborn of requiring high experiences from fresh gradutes, I wouldn't be shocked seeing a road sweeper, rubbish collecter or even a scavenger which all possess a Really Dead Frozen ATPL :hmm:

[timzsta]

Perhaps you spelling, gramar, opinion of stewardesses and general 'attitude' are the reason your ATPL is dead.

[salapilot]

As per usual someone makes a really valid point and gets shot down by the Plain speaking English Brigade !!.......Give the guy a bloodey chance. If you look carefully you will see Lanun is from Asia, so more than likely, English is not his first language and even if it isn't, his posting is well written and raises some valid points( Other than the stewardess comment). So timzsta try and pay a little more attention to the posting as a whole, rather than shoot holes in a few grammar mistakes !

Lanun, i agree in principle to what you are saying, but you will find at the moment Airlines to some degree have gone down this road , as there are so many low houred pilots on the market. If some of these have got a bit more multi engine experience, it makes it easier for them to take these individuals on. I doubt if a time will come (especially in the near future) where these companies will be knocking on the doors of lour hour Pilots as this forum alone demonstrates that the market is saturated.

sp

[ChocksAwayUK]

*ahem* It's "grammar", G R A M M A R.

:ok:

[salapilot]

well noted chocks away...;)

[Carpathia]

Actually Lanun, you don't hold a Airline Transport Pilots Licence, you hold a CPL/IR. There is no such thing as a Frozen ATPL, that's only a bull$hit marketing ploy to describe a person who holds a CPL/IR and has done the ATPL theory exams. When you have the requisite levels of experience, you may then apply for an ATPL.
Frankly at 200 hours, you shouldn't be allowed near an airline transport aircraft (and before all you 200 hr wannabes start screaming, I was in an airliner at 200 hours but I consider myself to have been completely unsafe at that time, not because I was any way below the standard expected but merely due to lack of experience. It takes at least 1000 hours to be trusted anywhere near an airliner in my opinion).

To the rest of you whinging about spelling and grammar, have you really nothing better to do. I've flown with plenty of pilots who can barely spell their own name but are excellent operators.

[timzsta]

Is it just stewardesses you want to get between the legs off, or female pilots as well?

Those kind of attitudes went out of commercial aviation about the same time as the jet engine came in.

[yaeger-miser]

Theres jet engines now!
Why the hell was'nt I told.

[kebab kid]

hmm, yes, posts on wannabes often get hijacked by some pious, frustrated little so and so, concerned about the spelling or some such. lighten up. you can certainly fly a jet if you have poor spelling! it just looks bad all the rest of the time.

the original guy made a slightly rambling but serious point, although if he's desperate for a girlfriend as well as a job, well thats his business i suppose :E

as for the job market, the title of this post says it all. wannabes are, rightly or wrongly, 'desperate' for a job.
its not healthy in the longer term, because although the deterioration in terms and conditions is down to increased competition in the industry as well as the supply and demand of wannabes, i am sure that the present climate deters lots of good people from seriously considering a career in aviation, because the financial risks are a little rich for their taste. which seems a shame to me. there's effectively a self selection stage before anyone goes near an interview, but the selection criteria have nothing to do with ability.

take it easy, kk

[Meeb]

There is no such thing as a Frozen ATPL, that's only a bull$hit marketing ploy to describe a person who holds a CPL/IR and has done the ATPL theory exams.

I have seen this accusation a fair few times now on PPRuNe and it is not correct. To be a co-pilot on an aircraft over 5.7t the crew member must have passed exams at ATP level... hardly a ' bull$hit marketing ploy'... is it? :rolleyes: Try to understand the regs before you make silly comments...

I was in an airliner at 200 hours but I consider myself to have been completely unsafe at that time

Many of my former students had little more than 200 hours when they went into the right seat of a 757/737... I cannot remember even one of them being 'completely unsafe'... more a reflection of your own low ability methinks... :mad:

No wonder aviation is going down the toilet with tw@ts like that posting such drivel...

[Carpathia]

I said there is no such thing as a Frozen ATPL and there is not. I think you will look long, hard and unsuccessfully if you try to find any licence of this name.

I refer to the JAR-FCL:

Pilots who have passed the
ATPL(A) examinations, who hold a JAR-FCL
CPL(A)(R) with Instrument Rating and a valid type
rating on a multi-pilot aeroplane will be required to meet
the following requirements for the issue of a JAR-FCL
ATPL(A):

• Achieve 1500 hours as pilot of aeroplanes, to
include;
(i) 500 hours on multi-pilot aeroplanes,
(ii) 250 hours PIC of which up to 150 hours may
be PIC U/S,
(iii) 200 hours cross country flight of which 100
hours may be as P2 or PIC U/S,
(iv) 75 hours of instrument time of which not more
than 30 hours may be instrument ground time,
(v) not more than 100 hours may be in a flight
simulator

Nothing there about a Frozen ATPL. The route is CPL/IR + ATPL theory exams to ATPL. Like I said first time.

I know you need the exams to qualify to obtain an MPA rating, but I stand by the statement that no such licence as Frozen ATPL exists. It is still a CPL/IR (with ATPL theory credits).


Many of my former students had little more than 200 hours when they went into the right seat of a 757/737... I cannot remember even one of them being 'completely unsafe'... more a reflection of your own low ability methinks...

I can assure you my ability is not in question but would you feel safe as a pax if FO 200 hour Bloggs is left sitting beside a dead captain on his first day post-safety pilot when an engine fails, the aircraft gets iced up, the destination closes and the fuel is running low?? A far-fetched circumstance of course but, as you should know, anything that can happen in aviation will happen. I don't care if Bloggs is the $hittest-hot new FO the company has ever seen, I know I'd rather be nowhere nearby. I conclude by saying I am damned glad, and are any of my colleagues I have talked to about this, that we got through our first few hundred hours without any major incidents.

[Number Cruncher]

Am I not right in thinking that airlines train all new recruits to deal with any possible problem that may arise regardless of whether they have 200 or 20,000 hours? I'm sure you wouldn't be in the RHS in the first place if you couldn't take the heat??

[atyourcervix73]

Meeb, and number cruncher..Carpathia makes a VERY valid point in relation to low houred F/O's

The simple fact of the matter is this, no matter how good, how confident, how well trained, or how well selected someone is, a more experienced person is FAR more likely to be able to cope in a stressful situation and bring it to a safe conclusion. Im not talking about this in terms of who is better or who is worse, Im talking in terms of experience. Those of you on here who have done a bit, seen a bit, and have been around for a bit will agree (I hope!) Me personally after 200-250hrs..I knew just about enough to get myself killed if I wasn't careful, and if you dont think that way, then frankly your deluding yourself.
If experience wasnt an issue then we would all be flown around by 21 year old hot-shot Sim/LPC wizards who could score great points in what is still an artificial (for all the efforts being made to improve it!) training environment. Get as much and as varied experience as you can.
Experience is thus, better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.:8

[benhurr]

So when should someone be allowed into the RHS of a jet?

Only when they have experience of sitting in the RHS of a jet, with a dead captain, a dead engine and icing conditions?

Hopefully, my spelling, grammar and punctuation have not invalidated my argument but...

Times have changed - I cannot do Single Pilot Ops cos I dont have the required 700 hours. I shouldnt instruct to build the hours because airlines dont like instructional experience as it shows that the individual is able to think for themself.

Me? 500 hours, 100 hours P1 MEP, FI(R) and working as an instructor, salaried better than most LO-CO new hires who paid for their own type ratings.

I think a touch of frustration regarding the current employment, training, regulatory environment is wholly justified.

[Re-Heat]

I can assure you my ability is not in question but would you feel safe as a pax if FO 200 hour Bloggs is left sitting beside a dead captain on his first day post-safety pilot when an engine fails, the aircraft gets iced up, the destination closes and the fuel is running low??
That is why the safety pilot is signed off at a stage where the line training captain is satisfied that such a circumstance can be handled by the pilot's experience level. That particular circumstance has been operationally proven to be safe within particular limitations.

The use of 200hr pilots in the RHS has been long-standing and proven to be highly safe where controlled. A far safer situation one might say than many of out grandparents and their colleagues flying Lancasters out to occupied Europe with 250hrs maximum.

The point raised was about getting a job with CPL/IR and ATPL theory. That issue is perhaps more to do with training quality, training records and test results, than the ability of someone who has been carefully assessed as being capable being placed in the RHS and trained to operate as a F/O.

[timzsta]

We have seen this kind of whinge on PPRUNE so many times - and yes deep down I agree. But nothing is going to change people. It is the way it is and no amount of whining is going to change that. There are more pilots then jobs and there always will be - it is in the vested interest of the FTO's and the airlines that this is so.

If you want that job you have to 100% believe you will get it eventually. Even a hint of a thought you might not or complaining how unfair it all is at an interview will mean you wont get the job - I have been told as much by people who work in recruiting. And many people do or don't get the job in the first sixty seconds - initial impressions count so be positive.

So instead of whinging go an try do something that will help you get that job. I have sent out 10 CV's this week and flogged a load of tot I had on ebay which has raised enough cash to take out an aircraft next week and do a few ILS's to keep my hand in at the IFR stuff.

If you ever read the thread Danny wrote about how he selected people for the first PPRUNE/Astraeus recruitment he weeded out many applications on the basis of spelling mistakes. Yes he ackonwledged that not being able to spell doesn't make somebody a bad pilot but when you have got hundreds of applications to sort through you have to start somewhere.

Just wish I had made the effort to spellcheck my original post - I will have to live by my mistake and eat humble pie

:{

[gonnabe]

timzsta - I agree with what you wrote.
Stay positive and try to get your hands on the controls, one way or another (even if it's just taking your dad for a sightseeing tour around the house) as often as possible is probably the best way to get a job in the long run. And remember to enjoy it!!

[salapilot]

Spelling and grammar on a posting is one thing, spelling and grammar for a CV/Application form is totally different. Those of you who post when someone makes a few errors on their grammar and slate them, are very anal and clearly enjoy your nights splitting hairs!

With regards to this thread, I'm a lour hour pilot, but also accept that you can't put a price on experience, especially in this industry. We do however have to start somewhere and I believe the Airlines ( and some do) can strike a very good balance with inexperience and experience, but sadly these companies are few and far between.

sp

[Carpathia]

Am I not right in thinking that airlines train all new recruits to deal with any possible problem that may arise regardless of whether they have 200 or 20,000 hours?

Wrong, you get taught to deal with a certain set of problems, as laid down by the syllabus for the TR. At 200 hours this is all you will know, at 20,000 hours you will have seen enough to be able deal with a far far vaster array of possible problems. It would be impossible to teach every conceievable problem in the sim, so the ability to deal with problems outside the box is the (vital) ability that comes with experience. I don't of course claim that some guy with lots of hours could deal with any given problem, but believe me, (s)he has a infinitely greater chance of success than FO 200 hours.

That is why the safety pilot is signed off at a stage where the line training captain is satisfied that such a circumstance can be handled by the pilot's experience level.

With respect, what utter rubbish. You really think 10 (or less) sectors can equip you to deal with our hypothetical problem, or indeed problems of a FAR less great magnitude? You will loose your safety pilot as soon as you can demo a satis single-pilot approach and landing in good conditions (as the captain will end the charade the minute anything vaguely out of the ordinary arises). If you think this "test" qualifies you to handle any situation out there, think again, fast.



So when should someone be allowed into the RHS of a jet? Only when they have experience of sitting in the RHS of a jet, with a dead captain, a dead engine and icing conditions?

The point is that, while the actual problem may not have been experience before, the capacity to deal with it increases exponentially with experience.
The answer to the question is, when the pilot has gained said experience, say at least 1000 hours. Yes, of course I know this won't happen, but that doesn't make it right.

working as an instructor, salaried better than most LO-CO new hires who paid for their own type ratings.

That's good, seems to me the best way to go, better money and MOL is not firmly wedged up your behind. Hang in there and you'll get a good airline job sooner or later.

flying Lancasters out to occupied Europe with 250hrs maximum.

Hmm, somewhat different levels of safety expected here though I think!

And before I get shot down by lots of wannabes, I started out flying jets at low-hundred hours and I would take the job again, of course you'd be mad not too. But that doesn't change the fact that in hindsight I realise my lack of experience at that time could have been a very large potential safety hazard. The problem is with the system, not the pilot.

[fescalised portion]

Quote Timzsta .......


"weeded out many applications on the basis of spelling mistakes. Yes he ackonwledged that not being able to spell doesn't make somebody a bad pilot ."

He's done it again !!!

[jamestkirk]

200 hours jet or 20,000 hours jet. safe or unsafe.

In my opinion, you are only the top gun of the airline world when you are competant enough to aileron role a cessna 152 at 100 knots.......YES, THAT'S RIGHT 100 KNOTS!!!!

Raw power from that 105 or 130 (RR engine) that can excite and terrify at the same time.

The 152 - A man's machine, not for the faint of heart or the medically confused.

[Carpathia]

Anyone who thinks slick handling of a Cessna is qualification enought to competently fly airliners is one of two things:

a) an ex-Irish Aer corps pilot

or

b) a comedian

[Re-Heat]

Experience and competence/ability are higher different, but nevertheless influence each other. Don't confuse the two.

Harrier pilots may be (and sometimes are) terrible multi-crew jet operators for example. Equally single-seat high hour fast jet guys can easily show up former RAF multi-crew pilots.

[Robssupra]

I don't expect my open heart surgeon to posses around six months or so, hands-on experience, before playing with my ticker, same reasoning applies with my pilots experience, if you ask me.

Happy job hunting.

[jamestkirk]

My answer to your question is b.......Obviously!

[Re-Heat]

I don't expect my open heart surgeon to posses around six months or so, hands-on experience, before playing with my ticker, same reasoning applies with my pilots experience, if you ask me.
Same applies to them, and they have to the gain the knowledge somehow. Equally in medicine inexperienced people perform complex operations under strict supervision. You don't expect them to perform such an operation alone; likewise the 200hr f/o does not perform it alone but under strict supervision - your point is analagous.

3 years of dealing with minor injuries would prepare nobody for their first open heart bypass. Surgeons too learn through doing.

[timzsta]

Your surgeon doesn't have an annual (or if over 40) sixth monthly medical check up though. Your surgeon doesn't have to do a proficiency check every six months either.

[Helli-Gurl]

Was half expecting to see a posting from Rod Eddington in here! ;)

x

[Piltdown Man]

If Matey boy in the other seat has 200 hours and my company has released him (or her) to line flying, then they are fit to be there. They might not like flying the plane when Captain Grey croaks, they are in heavy icing conditions and the brewers go tech. etc... Who would? But they'll cope because they have to. That's why not everyone with a licence gets a job. Those who do the recruiting don't have sufficient confidence in some applicants.

[Robssupra]

Good points guys but again when I spend my hard earned cash on a ticket as a passenger I expect to be able to buy a little better than a 200HR wanna-be pilot, just because on paper it is legal to have one, especially when there are many other, better qualified people on the market who deserve to be in the RHS of an airliner.

Again this is just my oppinion.

Happy flying to you all.

[Lucifer]

I expect to be able to buy a little better than a 200HR wanna-be pilot
Where on earth do you gain that seemingly utter contempt for other people's skills? Considering your profile, it would appear that you have not seen such 200hr qualified, selected and fully-trained pilots in a legal, insurance accepted and over half-century proven passenger operation, going from 4 to 3 to 2-crew aircraft.

Rather than giving an objective comment, your comment:
there are many other, better qualified people on the market who deserve to be in the RHS of an airliner
is perhaps more of a chip on the shoulder comment than one which you are objectively placed to answer?

CPL/IR and ATPL groundschool may not mean all are suitable to take on the challenge of the modern airliner operation immediately, but for those who are able to do so I think a little more credit is due. Furthermore it is not a communist state with a strict hierachy - accept that some are able to make it due to luck.


Furthermore the peer oversight and other rigorous means of ensuring an surgeon's continuing competence - though not comprable to 6 monthly sim checks - hardly amount to the non-stringent environment portrayed on the last page! On the contrary considering that the results endure somewhat longer than each sector, the pressure could be considered greater...

[SAMB0]

Well said lucifer! :ok:

[Robssupra]

It seems to me that I have been stepping on some 200hr toes, here.
Where on earth am I gaining this seemingly utter contempt for peoples skills. Two words to that. What skills?
Talking about my profile, for your info. I deal with many, low hour pilots, on a daily bases, and by doing so I might say that I was given that position because I was able to recognise their strengths and weakness.
First of all the company does not take in to consideration the difficulties somebody in my present position has to face, entertaining the idea of having low time pilots and second of all, it will be nice if the company offers the captains some preparation, to be able to better deal with the situation and at the same time help the low time pilots in the process.
Your second paragraph. The only people, this days, that get in an airline with 200hr total time are the ones that spend thousands of dollars on type ratings, themselves or just know somebody on the inside that would just walk them in.

My advice to low time pilots, work anywhere. Dont think just because you have your frozen ATPL, you deserve to have a job in an airline company.
If you get that opportunity, by all means go for it, but at the same time dont be disappointed if it takes some time getting there. Just remember the most important thing is not how fast you get there but how you get there that counts.
You will find out that your appreciation for your achievement, at the end of the day, will carry a lot more value.

Happy flying to all.

[RVR800]

What Europe needs is the ICAO Multi-Pilot rating when pilots are trained specifically to fly airliners. Light aircraft have a part to play at the start but because sims are so good I reckon its better for Bloggs to do much of his training on a 737 sim rather than some clapped out Duchess....

[BoeingMEL]

The real concern here is that Lanun studied and trained for ? years.... spent $ x 1000? and then found out what sort of job 200 hours would bring. That worries the **** out of me! bm