line training! [Archive]

FlyByHeart

17th Mar 2005, 12:43

Margarita - why not view the FO position as training for a Commander position? In that case one could argue that you should pay for being a FO:mad:

Correct me if I'm wrong - linetraining is training yes - but with fare paying pax, and the pilot in training is filling out the right seat. The operator is required to fill out this seat with a qualified pilot - then how can you tell me that it's ok to actually pay for that seat your self? I'm puzzeled.

Margarita

17th Mar 2005, 13:27

Dear boys,
Just be realistic. Nobody will hire you without such rating and training for 737. 25K sounds a lot of money but you can easily pay that back in a first year on proper job. If you like to keep crying and not willing to invest for your training and be marketable it's your choice! You should by now realize that your CPL alone will not get you anywhere.

152wiseguy

17th Mar 2005, 15:03

Paying for your line training is a sad and desperate measure but if you can't get in any other way then go for it :yuk:

JJflyer

17th Mar 2005, 15:46

I paid for my B737 type rating and got hired a job after that. Didn't have time in type though, nor did I pay for line training. I was told that I would have a job if rated, but without it no chance.

If one has a possibility of getting a long term job flying big jets by paying for a few hunderd hours in type. Go for it. If there's no chance of employment afterwards forget it.

Try to use all other avenues of getting a job before paying huge amount of money to a broker or anyone else to that matter. There are still companies that will type rate you and train you without making you pay for it nor will they force you to sign a bond. A much better option in my books.

If you have decided to embark on a pay for training scheme, try to identify the best possible option for you. B737 seems to be a viable aicraft with the A320. I would not be looking at 727's or any other old aircraft. Unless you are just looking for jet experience.

JJ

Hotel Charlie

17th Mar 2005, 16:43

Paying for linetraining is a disgrace! Paying for a type is not a good thing either! :yuk:
If you guys didn´t do this the companies would have take care of it themselvs and we as a group would be a lot better off! Don´t you see you are undermining our proffession.
Stop this nonsence NOW! You will still get the job. Somebody has got to fly the airplanes, right? Show some selfrespect and good luck with your career :ok:

Bengt Engel

18th Mar 2005, 07:43

Problem is, as long as there are more unemp. pilots then jobs available, people are gonna pay to get ahead...and no one is gonna be able to stop it...

hopefully the tide will turn....soon.

JJflyer

18th Mar 2005, 11:43

HC...

What planet y came from???

Had I not got the type I would not have got the job. My competition was with 5000 h and more and I had less than 1500h. Cost for the type paid back in 1 month.

JJ

An2

18th Mar 2005, 12:44

JJflyer,

-"Cost for the type paid back in 1 month."

Wow!,:ooh: What kind of salary are you on!?!?
I'd luuuv to be in your shoes!;)

Mr BE,

-"hopefully the tide will turn....soon."
Amen!, to that!

JJflyer

18th Mar 2005, 13:09

6000 US a month ( When dollar was worth anything) 150$ a day per diem. 25$ daily food and laundry allowance.

My present job pays about nothing. However if getting a new type gets me a higher income, well I'd do it all over again. It is an investement and one has to count the possible gain in the long run.

JJ

Margarita

18th Mar 2005, 14:03

AN2,
Somehow I think that tide will not turn again. Fact remain that airlines are looking ready trained and rated crews, you like it or not. There is very few jobs in the world were you can have all of your training expenses back in a year or less! Aviation is one of them. Still there is lot of folks hoping that CPL is all that is needed to land a well paying job with major airline. Dream on, if you like or get rated!

Techman

18th Mar 2005, 15:16

It stinks! The pathetic excuses seen here stinks. The companies offering these schemes, and effectively getting free FO's, stinks. The attitude "if I don't do it someone else will" stinks.

Our industry is going down the drain, surely but not slowly, helped in no small part by the Margaritas and JJFlyers of this world.

IT STINKS! :mad: :mad: :mad:

Bengt Engel

18th Mar 2005, 19:50

it's like its always been, the guy with the most money wins...

but yes, it stinks.

JJflyer

18th Mar 2005, 19:59

Truth hurts eh? And it sucks.

But thats just how it is. If y don't like the way the industry is... Leave it.
Somehow I think you do not fly at all or have not flown for some time, judging by how detached some of your comments are from present day reality.

JJ

Techman

18th Mar 2005, 20:49

Truth? That's just the way it is?

You might be able to delude yourself, but I'll be damned if your bend over and grab your ankles philosophy is going to persude me.

You have chosen the easy way and just accepted whatever employers have stated as requirements instead of showing some backbone. Everyone with half a brain and a full spine knows that those requirements will disappear very quickly if nobody applies. But then along comes the jellyfish who says "yes massa". Ever wondered why you are in a job now that pays "about nothing"?

It seems I have been in this business a lot longer than you, and I have no intention of seeing the likes of you dragging it down any further than you already have.

Show some backbone, or bow your head in shame.

2beers

18th Mar 2005, 23:50

Well, all companies are in it to make a profit and if they can chose between two pilots, one with a rating and some experience, I guess the choice isn't that difficult for them. Money saved is money earned. So unless there's a union that negotiated some reasonable salaries, what's the guy that has paid for everything to say when they offer him a minimum wage? He or she has so much money invested that they're commited (like in poker) no matter what kind of deal they get. So what will it take until that person says "Enough! I want decent money for my time and skill."? It's a slippery road you enter once you start undercutting your competition and colleagues with salaries or paying for ratings and experience.

Imagine this: After a couple of years in the right seat, not earning great, but enough to support the little family with a full time working spouse and mortgages on the house and still paying for the loans that got you that seat, there is a mail from the company... The company will now upgrade its whole fleet of 20 B737-600 to 25 A320. Anyone interested in staying with the company will pay for their own rating and line training until they're checked out. Otherwise, there's a whole heap of fresh CPL-holders that are ready to pay to do it....

Percy Nilegård and his "Management by fear" isn't suddenly that far away

/2beers

Margarita

19th Mar 2005, 00:41

Techman,
Your opinions STINK. You better accept the fact that union runned airlines are history. Just wake up and get out from the train if you don't like the ride. Don't tell me that you like to use SAS because it has better wages instead some charter airline when you are taking a trip on your own account!

Techman

19th Mar 2005, 01:54

The fact is that none of of you NEVER HAD THE CHANCE to apply for a rael airline.

Both of you are stuck with sub standard outfits and both of you know it.

You might claim that airlines accept applications such as yours, but that is ONLY because people SUCH AS YOU HAVE ACCEPTED sub standard conditions.

YOU ARE DIRECTLY THE CAUSE OF THE SUB STANDARD CONDITIONS OFFERD TODAYS AIRCREWS.

YOU SIR, STINK TO HIGH HEAVEN.

Margarita

19th Mar 2005, 02:19

You are very wrong in your opinions. It is not a pilots fault that entire aviation industry took a steep turn to low cost approach. As far as travellers like to fly on cheap fares that will be the case. In my humble opinion unions were the biggest reason for such change in aviation. Majors were not able to compete with the new low cost carriers fast enough and here we are today. So lets live with it.

Techman, it's not a mirrows fault if you do not like the picture!

Techman

19th Mar 2005, 02:51

I wouldn't expect any other response fron people who have paid for they own typerating.

It is intirely the fault of the pilot who accepted that a rating is a minimum condition for employment. Anyone who accepted that a type rating is a conditiong of employment is a guilty as Michael O'Leary.

Of course these people will defend their position. However they are the scum of the earth, and they know so. Which is why they will defend they position even when it is undefensible.

You stink and you know that you stink. And that will be
your curse for the rest of your life. Enjoy!!.

JJflyer

19th Mar 2005, 02:51

Don't even bother answering this Techman. As a first ever you have made the good old ignore list.

It is union types like you who have ruined the industry. You have unrealistic salary and conditions demands that have place in market driven economy of todays aviation. It would probably be nice to work 2 weeks and be off 2 with full salary, eh, but not going to happen now is it?
Good old times when travel was for the privileged few and tickets very expensive are gone. Get it? GONE!!!
Travel by flying today is for everyone with a penny in the pocket.
With decreasing ticket prices, increasing competition from "Low cost carriers", increasing operatings costs, inflation, high euro, 911, fuel prices etc most "Real (rael) airlines that none of us have ever had a chane to apply to" have had to face the reality and reduce cost at all cost. Seat/mile cost higher than revenue per seat/mile is a scenario that spells for trouble and eventually force a company out of business. A fact that most unions do not seem to understand.

You seem to forget that airlines are a business with only one purpose : To make profit. In other words make money for the share holders. Charity has no place in todays aviation. Time for the government owned national airlines are over and gone with them are over staffed departments. People are worked to the maximum regulations allow.

With every reduction of yearly flight time and allowed duty time or other expensives, companies are forced to save elsewhere say training. You will see fewer and fewer companies going to be willing to cough up the cash for low time pilots to train them on a type. Companies will be looking for typed, trained and experienced pilots and there will be masses on the market either looking for greener pastures or unemployed.

As a pilot I have made a huge investment to this industry and wanted results. Results are measured the same way as with any business, that is with results. Money.

Smell what you are showeling, should give you an idea what yoy reek off.

JJ

Kopeloi

19th Mar 2005, 03:28

Techman,
Stop drinking, it affects your spelling and opinions!

Margarita

19th Mar 2005, 03:36

Techman,
Just for your info. I have never paid a single type rating, neither I have never been on strike... maybe because a simple reason that I couldn't afford it. I never paid a single union fee either.
But be assured, if I need a job and a requirement is a valid type rating I will sure go and do it now, if I can afford such investment for my own good.

Techman

20th Mar 2005, 14:33

Well Well margarita/Kopeloi or whatever you call yourself this week. Maybe it should be 'I'm alright Jack'. Think about it. But I doubt that you will.

Ever heard of circular logic JJFlyer? I guess not, but you seem to be quite the proponent of the concept.
Let me guess, you are one of those who jump from job to job, accepting ever decreasing conditions. One of the vagabonds.

But you are right in one thing. It is nice to work 2 weeks on and 2 weeks off. On full salary. 'Cause that's what I do and you know what the really strange things is? We are making money and expanding our business. And we have a strong union. Go figure.

The difference between you and me is that you are willing to wet your pants on a cold day to keep warm, while I'll ask my employer for some suitable clothing.

And somehow I think that you'll be able to convince yourself that wet pants is the way to go.

Rune

20th Mar 2005, 22:11

Professionals get paid for their services, amateurs don’t.

I am responsible for an aircraft worth 50-60 million $, and the lives of 150-200 pax.
I make million dollar decisions several times a day on a regular basis.
I operate in an unhealthy environment, dry air and loosing my hearing due to noise.
I work irregular hours get sleep disorder from jet lag.
I find myself being paid less per hour than my local car mechanic.
And, hurray! I find more and more pilots paying to work!!
Stop undermining this profession.

(The slaves were better off 150 years ago, at least they were fed and given shelter and didn’t have to pay to work)

Hotel Charlie

20th Mar 2005, 22:20

JJFlyer, Margarita and Kopeloi
you guys are nothing but whores. The cancer of all professional pilots. Actually you´re not really professionals since you have or are willing to sell yourself cheeply for a rating. A disgrace! I would never hire you. If you´re not loyal to your own peers how can a company trust your loyalty? Once again I definitely wouldn´t!
Had I not got the type I would not have got the job. My competition was with 5000 h and more and I had less than 1500h.
JJ do you really think you are more quallified than the 5000hr guy just because daddy bought you a rating?
The best qualified person, be it experience, skill, psychologically or otherwise tested should get the jobb! His or her dad´s wallet or willingness to borrow money should definitely not count. You are resposible for this professions demise! The shame is all on you, and remember what goes around comes around! :yuk:

Margarita

21st Mar 2005, 02:19

There seem to be a gross misunderstanding of entire issue! You guys are thinking that airlines should hire and train new hires straight from the street. That was maybe a case a long ago but obviously not any longer. What ever the reason, it is not a case today.
I do not see anything wrong with this when some of the training responsibilities/expenses are moved back to each individual.
Today airlines do require new hires some more training than CPL course alone. Like it or not!

HC and techman, I am surprised with your attitudes. Its not my fault that such requirements exist. Once again, I never did pay any rating and I will quarantee that my annual income is bigger than yours!
So, like they say F**K YOU,JACK!

JJflyer

21st Mar 2005, 05:36

Hotel Charlie

FYI. I have paid all my training myself by work or by a loan. My father and his finances or the lack of them had nothning to do with and my training. I would appreciate if you left my father out of this.

Nope I didn't think I was more quafied, however I needed a better job and a company needed a pilot. I was informed, that should I have training on type, I would be hired. Now that is very simple to understand even to the thickest individual.

JJ

Bengt Engel

21st Mar 2005, 08:19

so, are we all done here? or are we gonna meet up outside?

fellas, try to understand the other boys situation, we cant all be the same, thank some one higher for that...

Hotel Charlie

21st Mar 2005, 08:47

You guys are thinking that airlines should hire and train new hires straight from the street. That was maybe a case a long ago but obviously not any longer. What ever the reason, it is not a case today.
I was informed, that should I have training on type, I would be hired. Now that is very simple to understand even to the thickest individual.
If you guys didn´t sell yourself so cheaply, then they would´ve had to pay for your training now wouldn´t they? And JJ you call other people thick?? :ok:
Still shame on you for ruining the business for the rest of oss who have self-respect and have payd our dues!

Margarita

21st Mar 2005, 11:33

HC,
I don't understand how thick one is to believe that it was young pilots that caused majors to collapse and companies like Easy and Ryanair to take over? It was UNIONS who forced these companies for their knees and to leave the door open for budget airlines, period! So if you like to blame someone about recent situation you are barking a wrong tree. And just to remind, these unions were set to help pilots not to get them out of job, as happened. If I am not badly mistaken....
As a reminder have a look SAS/Braathens discussion on this forum.

Bengt Engel

21st Mar 2005, 13:21

well, I wouldnt just blame the unions...
..take a look at that very fancy HQ in frösundavik i sthlm...once upon a time filled with overpayed and lazy
office "managers"....some one who wrote a book about destroying ancient egyptian buildings made it a perfect place for people like that...

...but all that aside...looks like that company is turning around nicely...after the union :mad: all the pilots in the :mad: ...

Flathatter

21st Mar 2005, 13:39

What does the issue of unions contributing to a company's downfall (fair amount of truth in that, though not quite the full story) have to do with losers having to buy themselves a job because they don't have the skills, experience or morals to compete withother pilots in the marketplace?

An2

22nd Mar 2005, 13:31

Hotel Charlie, Flathatter,

The both of you come across as either very arrogant towards 'wannabees', or very frightened of the 'new order' in the aviation industry. I just can't make my mind up which it is. Probably a bit of both.

Your posts have a touch of "holier than thou"-reasoning,......or in other words; If you haven't reached your goal, the HotelCharlie or Flathatter-way,....then you're simply not worthy, or have no self-respect/not paid your dues/are unskilled/no experience/ no moral.....et.c, et.c.

I wish that I could've "paid my dues" through instructing/taxi-flying for peanuts, but opportunitys are few and far between and luck is a key player. This means that if you're not lucky enough, you'll never get the chance to prove yourself and you're stuck!!
What to do then? Sit and wait to see what happens, or create your own opportunity?

Margarita

23rd Mar 2005, 02:28

You are very right. These fellows are dead scared about "new order" as there is no room for them or their unions. Make no mistake, these guys do not like anyone to come in without their approval. Similar rules and standards were used in Sovjet Unions communist party.

Hotel Charlie

23rd Mar 2005, 06:00

Well Margarita,
These fellows are dead scared about "new order" as there is no room for them or their unions.
Not scared but very disappointed! I thought the the guys comming up behind were going to be professionals and not you know what..!(I know there are a lot of REAL pilots comming our way to, and you all are quite welcome indeed) When it comes to unions Margarita, trust you me, you will wake up from la la land and smell the roses :ooh:

Margarita

23rd Mar 2005, 07:56

Glad you said that. There obviously is lot of good fellows stucked between rock and a hard place. Only way onward is quite a massive investment to obtain required type ratings etc. Unfortunately this seem to be only way to proceed in case they like to leave their peanut paying air taxi jobs.
I am still a great believer that unions were the main reason that majors couldn't fight back in the dawn of "budget airlines". Now it seems to be far too late.
Makes no big difference in my case, too old and tired. I'm only looking a good reason to retire and to set sailing to sunset.....
Have fun like I did and try to help these youngsters when ever possible.