Education: What A Levels and Degree (if any)?!(Apr '09)

[E-Fizz]

I've read lots of posts from extremely well academically qualified people on Pprune. Although I am qualified myself I don't have a degree. Do you think this is something that would hinder entry into the airlines?

I have yet to start flight training as I am putting the cash together from all sources and trying to plan the best route - which brings me on to one more point; I've read many overviews of what JAA modular training providers offer both here in the UK and in the USA. My plan is to PPL - IMC - Night in the US - ATPL ground in the UK - Hours in US - CPL/IR in UK/USA. There is no specific multi-engine. Please tell me, where do I start to experience this, in the CPL/IR or do I have to specifically book a course to do it? I know under JAR there is a requirement for ME in the CPL but if I don't do it until then, will this be detramental? Thanks.

[scroggs]

This is a no-brainer, these days. Go to University and get a degree. Yes, I know you will hear many stories about how it's possible to get a flying job without one, and some of the less wise here will say that the earlier you get on an airline's seniority list the better. However, they never seem to mention the many who opt out of university and yet fail to get a flying job. Where do they stand in the overall scheme of things? I'll tell you: a lot further down the slippery pole than the people who persevered and got the degree.
As has been mentioned above, there are a great many advantages to going to university, and very few disadvantages. You are young and have plenty of time. Make yourself as employable as possible to as many employers as possible. You could be one of the probably 70% of wannabes who don't make it to your dream job.

[Lucifer]

Mate, if you're not already committed to Navy or whatever you decided eventually, go to one near a UAS, do 2 years and drop out then decide on RAF/civvy etc. As for the degree, I personally would not go for a purely aviation-based one, however if you feel you can cope with aeronautical engineering then go for it, but without the maths it would be a struggle IMHO.

You need to ask yourself what you are good at, since it really does not make much difference to employers what sort of degree you actually did. If you go for the av management route, are you interested in psychology, management and all aspects of what is taught around the ATPL. If not, just go for your economics, history, politics, chemistry or whatever you have a deep interest in, because it may be better to get the broad knowledge, rather than to go straight down the aviation road all the way.

Good Luck

[Hornetboy]

What if you have absolutely no interest in anything outside the aviation field? What if you're one of those guys that's gonna end up reading maths/science/history/economics/etc textbooks with stary, glazed-over eyes, thinking, "Why am I still doing this when I'm out of school?". Aren't those aviation degrees pretty useful for the field you're about to enter? At all??

[mad_jock]

Stick with your first idea of a engineering / professional degree, just one which is more practical than heavy maths.

The employment rates for all the acredited courses have been in the 90's for years and most engineers don't acually work as engineers because of there problem solving training and managment/ accounts courses. They get employed in all sectors accounts through to IT although not many in personel deptments :).

In fact i believe that engineers have a higher rate of first time passes in Chartered Accountacy that accounts graduates.

And the old joke "What do you say to a arts graduate in there first job...." is unfortuntely in the experence of my friends very true unless they joined the forces or became Teachers.

MJ

[Lucifer]

I agree, itsallmagic, but there has to be real commitment and no an inkling of a doubt, plus as said before that you don't want to commit too early to one route. It is I have to say a safer bet than just gaining an ATPL and hoping for an airline job with no degree.

[ScottishSteve]

i'm at Strathclyde, doing business. Currently going thru the stages for UAS. Most (In fact all but 4) are at Glasgow doing aero engineering...and its a good degree, but i'd say do something other than aviation led degree, as you may end up wanting (or indeed having to) work in another industry. And be warned-joining the UAS, at least as i've found, really makes you want to join the RAF after the degree! Good luck whatever you do mate.

[JT8]

Rusty,

If you didn't do maths a-level you will not be accepted onto an aero eng course. Thats not a bad thing, as its a 'challenging' course even with the maths (like I found).

Do a degree you are interested in, and will do well in. Having said that, as mentioned here; science and engineering degrees are always well regarded, and provide a good foundation for a wide range of careers.

Good luck!
JT8

[MikeSamuel]

Coventry University do an "Aerospace Technology" BEng I think...Might be just what you are after, as I assume it would be less maths intensive. Worth checking it out. Although I wouldn't recommend Coventry for anything....ever :D

Regards,

MS

[Tonkenna]

Rusty,

If you decide that the RAF is the way ahead then it makes no diference what degree you do. Pick a uni with a UAS and do whatever you like and have fun :)

Tonks :D

[Jason2000]

Rusty,

Only do an Aero. Engineering degree if you really think you would benefit from it.

They are hard degrees, and if you are not inclined to that 'sort' of study, it is better that you do something you are good at and get a good degree rather than do an Aero degree and get just an average grade.

If you do want to do an Aero. Engineering degree and you don't have a Maths A-level, you could always do a foundation year: I know a number of uni's do them- you just do an extra year of study, the first basically being a 'catch-up' course.

Do bear in mind that all of the people on my course have studied Maths though and we are all finding it difficult now we are in year 2 !!!

Best of luck

Jason :)

[Rusty Cessna]

Thanks for all the replies folks, I'ts making the decision a little easier!

Tonkenna,

Did you get my e-mail? I have fears my computer may be playing mind games with me!

Many thanks,
Rusty.

[shifatur]

hi guys
this is a cool forum for ppl like me. i am doing my bachelors in english literature, but have wanted to become a pilot since i was six.

i was accepted by embry riddle and uni. of north dakota, both very good schools offering aviation degrees. however, a twist in the word "luck" spoilt all my dreams and now i find myself studying "literature".

i talked to lots of pilots and most of them dont have degrees in aviation. then again, a die-aviation minded guy like me should go for the a "major" he would want to build a career in, right?

when things dont work out the way u want, there's nothing much u can do about that. u have to be satisfied with what u "r" doing.

having a non-aviation degree is not a "period" for pilots. infact, most of the airline pilots in todays world are without one, as i was quoting earlier. so......... i really dont care if i am without an aviation degree. i am happy!!!

ciao and keep this place rocking!!! :cool: null (http://http://)

[Tonkenna]

Rusty,

I did, did you not get my reply?

Tonks :)

Just incase I have re-sent it.

[ 07 November 2001: Message edited by: Tonkenna ]

[WX Man]

Simple... do one you enjoy. If you enjoyed (for instance) Physical Geography at A level, do a degree in Geology with Geography.

Remember that it's got to retain your interest for 3 long, hard years!

[SpeedBird22]

Hello,

I agree with Lucifers post earlier on also WX Man. Firstly, you won't even get your degree if you choose it purely because you think it'll help you out as a pilot. SO choose something you want to do cause its bloody hard anyway.

Secondly, personally I wouldn't bother with an aviation related one. One of my friends who is an instructor started Aero Eng but dropped out in the second year just because he didn't enjoy it.

Try and choose a multipurpose degree. I'm in my second year of Law which I reckon is one of the best fallbacks to have.

Happy flying,

:) BAW22 :)

[cooldude]

Hello all, im 16 and just doing my gcse's for alevel i will be doing chemistry physics and geography. i have just started thinking about university and have found this degree that interests me : http://www.city.ac.uk/engineering/ato/ it is a course that combines a degree with an ATPL, it is a very expensive option but do you people think it is worth it? please take a look at the site. i would have to take a loan from my parents and pay it off after the degree working with my dad. I have thought about joining the RAF and becoming a pilot there, what do people think of it. i dont want to be treated like a piece of turd for a few years, i dont know if that image is true but on tv people in army type jobs get treated like school kids. thankyou very much for your time and i hope you reply.:D

[scroggs]

I know nothing about the course you refer to, and I'm sure others will comment appropriately. I would like to pick you up on your somewhat cursory impression of the RAF. The RAF is not 'an army type job'. They wear uniform, but that's about the limit of the similarity. Assuming you were up to the task, you would not 'be treated like a piece of turd' nor, unless you deserved it, 'like a school kid'.

If you wish to seriously consider the RAF as a place to begin your flying career, check out the RAF's careers website (I think it's www.rafcareers.com (http://www.rafcareers.com) - if not, someone will correct me). The RAF is a highly professional workplace, with incredibly high standards. It is neither a place to belittle others, nor a place to while away time gaining hours towards a civilian licence. Unless you take it seriously, you will never be considered for its exceptional training and excellent flying.

As you might guess, I spent a considerable amount of time in the RAF as a pilot, instructor and recruiter.

[cooldude]

thanks for your reply, i was not planning to join the RAF just to build up hours i would remain there for many years and eventually leave to become a commercial pilot. im sorry if my outsider impression was incorrect, its just that i dont want to be treated like the people are in the army. I dont think i could take that. Thanks for advice and i will now seriously consider a RAF career.

[P.Pilcher]

Cooldude - If you use the search engine on this forum you will find that the question of a university degree and in what subject has been examined at great length for your colleagues with similar concerns to yourself. The idea of a degree before doing a course of flying training is to give yourself an alternative to flying should you lose that hard won flying job due to redundancy or loss of medical. As I am sure you are aware, both are very real possibilities. Although this degree appears to enable you to continue working in the airline industry should your flying have to cease, there are two problems with it. First, the award of the qualification depends on you achieving an ATPL in a year. With the uncertainties of achieving this goal due to weather and exam re-sits, you may find your financial budget exceeded by a considerable margin. Second, if you lose your job it may be because of the cyclic depression in the aviation industry so there will be no ground aviation jobs available either. Thus if there is another subject that interests you which will enable you to take up a completely alternative career then this is worth serious consideration. I am sure you will have read posts from our honourable moderator about alternatives to a degree which also make a lot of sense. Remember that at most times all an airline will want to offer you a job is a licence and find at interview that their potential first officer is an "interesting" person.

best of luck with your final decision.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Dude,

An airline pilot is probably one of the few well paid professional jobs now where a degree is not essential, nor even hugely beneficial (when entering the profession anyway). But, a degree gives you many options if you fail or give up on flying training, lose your medical, just decide you don't enjoy flying so much after a few years, etc. that don't exist for somebody who ONLY did ATPL training. An aviation based degree also offers a great many professional options within aviation apart from pilot.

A further consideration is that the services do now generally prefer incoming officers (which other than in the army, includes all pilots) to have a degree. With regard to how people are treated in the services, expect to get treated like the smallest naughtiest schoolkid for about 6 months of basic training, and with moderate suspicion until you've shown more experienced colleagues your worth respecting. If you can live with that, the rest of the career you'd be treated like the important and highly trained professional that you would have become.

Do search on Pprune for discussion on other degrees. Personally I have a degree in Aeronautical Engineering (like a lot of other people round here), which hasn't prevented me or them gaining professional flying qualifications, but also allows many of us to do a lot of other professional jobs (specialisation is for insects !!!) with aeroplanes that other degrees wouldn't have. It was also a LOT of very hard work. At your stage, so long as you at-least pick maths and physics at A-level (pretty much compulsory for most of what you're likely to want to do) the options are wide.

I have an acquaintance, just as an example, who did an aero-eng degree, joined the RAF as a pilot, failed his Hawk course, and last I saw him was a very content squadron engineering officer looking after 20 or so Tornados.

Best of luck,

G

[SVK]

Cooldude,

Speaking as a youthfully optimistic aircrew member of the RAF, I can offer you a couple of pointers.
First of all, the RAF isn't like the Army whatsoever and ive had a whale of a time thus far. However, the lifestyle doesn't suit everyone and it needs careful consideration and research before you apply.
Secondly, the RAF has begun to change its policy over the last 18 months or so from one of sponsoring students to go to university before joining the RAF at 21 to one of an 'In Service Degree Scheme'
This scheme is in conjunction with the Open University and allows you to join the RAF at 18 and go through flying training whilst simultaneously studying for a degree in Aviation, Business etc. Indeed, some of your training counts towards your degree. No doubt the RAF Careers Office could help. The advantage to you is that you would leave the RAF with a degreee whilst the RAF would have you in service 3 years earlier - particularly relevant with the wait in between flying courses these days.
If i'd had the option at 18 I would have seriously considered it. In saying that, I took the normal Uni route and had the best time of my life!

Hope this helps

SVK

[Ricardo82]

I am currently doing a degree, but things are kind of uncertain at the moment. Have to retake an exam and i don't feel that my heart is really in it. How important is a degree in relation to becoming an airline pilot which is my absolute dream. If i don't do the degree what is the best route to take to get to being in the right hand seat of a big jet?

I'd be really greatfull for some feedback.

Chears,

Richy.:confused:

[Landing_24R]

Richy,

As I understand it (and I am no expert) a degree is not an entry requirement for airlines such as BA- it tends to be 5 GCSE's A-C in academic subjects and 2 A/AS Levels. Having said that, a degree is preferred- it doesn't matter too much what subject, but it shows that you have the will power and the academic strength to study intensively under your own steam and get the results at the end of the 2/3 years or whatever. Technically airlines would accept you without a degree, but it would improve your chances and improve the impression you make with the airline if you have a degree under your belt to accompany your other achievements.

As to what chances you would have of getting sponsorship (where the airline pay for all of or part of your training on the condition that you remain with the airline for a certain period) without a degree would be, I'm not too sure.

Try doing a search of Wannabes for this sort of thing, there have been loads of similar subjects and questions asked to this one.

Good luck,
Landing_24R :cool:

[foghorn]

I'm probably going to get shot down for this, but IMHO a degree is little use for a prospective commercial pilot in the UK who is not expecting to apply for sponsorships. I have several degrees from the UK's premier higher education establishment, so I have no axe to grind on this!

However

The road to being a pilot is long and many fall by the wayside with their dreams in tatters and nothing but debts to repay.

There are lots of us low-hour newly qualified guys making ends meet outside aviation at the moment, partly thanks to Sep-11.

Always have a plan B - your degree will help with that. On average in the majority of industries having a degree opens more doors to higher incomes. It's a simple numbers game, and it all helps when your bank loan balance is a very big number!!!

I'm certainly glad of my plan B.

cheers!
foggy.

[Keef]

And the saddest truth of all...

If the aviation career doesn't work out and you are looking for a serious money-making career, an interviewer worth his salt will find out that you dropped out of Uni. That will earn you a few dozen negative marks (a quitter?)

You've started: you should finish.

Sorry. That's life.

Or join one of the "caring" professions. The pay is c~@p but the rewards are something else.

[Tinker]

This is from personal rather than informed opinion. You have started so you may as well finish. A degree cannot hurt your chances in the buisness and will serve as a usefull back up should things not go the way you want.
Now is not the time to be rushing into a CPL course anyway and getting an education is one of the better ways to pass your time until a the job market becomes more favourable for the newly qualified pilot.
I cannot disagree with Landing or Foggy but I agree more with Keef. Don't let your ultimate goal interfere with the job in hand.

[Evo7]

Having had the 'pleasure' of doing some (non-aviation) graduate-level interviewing, I completely agree with Keef. Unless you could convince me in the interview that your reasons for dropping university were valid then you wouldn't get the job. Full stop. You've dropped one thing 'because your heart isn't really in it' - we wouldn't take the risk that you would do the same thing with us.

I recognise that the aviation world is different here - it's one of the few well-paying jobs where they will not care. However, I think getting your degree is still relevant because you've got to get that CPL/IR - assuming that you aren't in a position to write a cheque for £60k and head off to Jerez then you'll have to earn the money. Dropping the degree could hit you twice here - you are going to have to explain to any prospective employee above the McDonalds level that you've dropped the degree, but you've got to do it without telling them you've left to chase a CPL/IR - if you admit that you're going to leave as soon as you can they're going to give that job to someone else anyway. As Keef says, sorry, but that's life.

There's no real hurry to train right now, so what I would do is get the degree, get a well-paid graduate job (there are still plenty around, especially in IT) and work for a couple of years saving your pay while doing the modular stuff evenings and weekends. When you're ready, dump it all to do the IR etc. and chase that dream job.

[Elvis21]

Sound advice from Evo,

I am in the position of looking to start the long road to the dream with the PPL. I have saved enough to complete this by Xmas and then start saving again.

Have you had your Class 1 yet? I would do this before you even think of quitting your degree. Also, you would need a damn good excuse as to why you quit. After all, it is only 3 years.

[David Balchin]

Lots of wise words have been posted here I also have a Degree
so I'm aloud to say It's not the end of the world if you don't have one really but it would look better if you finish your degree, and it can't look bad on your CV
even though it MIGHT not make you a better Airline pilot.
Also Given the state of the market TIME IS ON YOUR SIDE!

[Danny_R]

Hi Guys,

I am currently deciding which A Levels I am going to be taking next year.
I was wondering if any of you guys have any advise on what subjects to take.
I am thinking about Physics, Chemistry, Biology and English Language. Would anyone recommend any other possible subjects? I am also contemplating whether or not to take an ITC course, would IT be an advantage when it comes to applying to sponsorship schemes?

Thanks

Danny

[Ian_Wannabe]

Hey there Danny,
I'm currently going throught the second year of A Levels and take it from me, dont do a subject like Maths or Physics because the application form for BA told you so.... 6th form life is good, but if you're in a subject you dont enjoy, then its twice as hard and you're most likely to do badly in it, and that wont look good on your CV.

I asked this question over a year and a half ago and was told this:
Do the subjects you are good at and the ones that you enjoy, this will put you on a good path for the airline job that I take it you want (?) because you'll have good grades behind you.

For example, the Leeds uni course that I wish to embark on preffers me to have an A Level in Physics. I do English language, Geography and D&T but this isn't a problem as long as I show a MAJOR interest in getting that airline job.

You say you're thinking of doing English Language, I've really enjoyed this course even though its quite tough. It also gives you an advantage on the "people person" side of being an airline pilot I should imagine.

But sure, if you're good at physics and maths etc. and they will provide a good fallback in an area of work you'll enjoy if you fail to get the airline job, then go for them.

Good luck with whatever you choose and remember that end of termin the 6th form means 'go to the pub' ;)

Ian

[Loretta]

Doing Maths rather than (say) Biology or Chemistry would be a good idea. If you don't go into aviation it'll open up a few doors. Think about what you would like to study at university (yes, I know it's a long way off), because if you're into your sciences Maths will be a real help if you go on to do a scientific degree. Remeber that most cadets have a degree - besides that, uni is a laugh, and a degree will provide you with a valuable safety net.

Having done the Standard Three (Maths, Physics, Chemistry) I did Engineering at uni - but with them I could have done (among others) IT, Maths, Physics, Chemistry, Medicine (believe it or not, you don't need Biology to get on to a medicine course, just Chemistry). I wish I'd done a more arty subject as a fourth A-level, so I think that English would be a good idea, as would a foreign language, if you're that way inclined.

But ultimately Ian's right, do what you enjoy. That way you'll do better at them, and UCAS points mean prizes.;)

[Jordan D]

I'm also in my second year of A-Levels, and have followed a mainly Science theme (which I enjoy), of Physics, Maths & Geography. I've decided to do Geography at Uni, so lets hope it pays of!

Jordan

[Bodie]

Hi Danny_R

Loretta has said almost everything I want to say. Maths is always a good thing to have at A-Level. I wish I'd stuck at it and got a good grade instead of one of those pass grades (eek). Having said that, I did well in my other A-Levels and got in to uni on a Computer Science degree. Despite not doing well at A-Level maths, I found that any maths done at uni was done at some point or other at A-Level, so I had a bit of a head start. Anyhow, I managed to get a 2.1 in the end - if I'd worked a bit harder then I could have got a 1st, but hey...

I am currently studying my ATPL groundschool with Brisol. I got my PPL this summer. I've heard people mention that having maths is a must for ATPL, well it isnt, to be honest the maths I've encountered so far is no more than GCSE, and if there is some content of an A-Level standard, then it is treated as difficult maths, and they really push the boat out to simplify it. It works too.

To summarise, get good A-Levels and do a degree you really like. From the subjects you've chosen, you sound bright, so A-Level maths is probably well within your reach and will give you the edge. IT is good to have on your CV, but us Computer Scientists look down on it as not being very difficult (Its snobby I know, but true). Do this and your ATPL groundschool will be a breeze.

Other people may not agree with this, but its the degree that makes you really stand out - for example, I went for a preliminary interview with the RAF. The officer interviewing was looking for qualities that would make a good pilot, and one of them was a good educational background - I told him I have a 2.1 in computer science, and this immediatly put me in the same league as all other candidates, no further questions asked. Read what you like in to it, but it made me feel a hell of a lot more confident.

Good Luck!

Bodie

[scroggs]

Danny

I don't want to get too deep into this, partly because it's been covered many times before on Wannabes, and partly because it's something that you should discuss in great detail with those who know you and your abilities best. That is, your teacher/tutor and your parents.

Don't make any assumptions about what qualifications are required by airlines - you'll probably be wrong! The only qualification required by a 747 pilot is an ATPL with a B747 type rating. The few but various sponsorships available have differing qualification requirements, but most will accept 5 GCSEs (which should include maths, a science and English) all at grade 'C' or above, and 2 A-levels - usually unspecified. A degree will always help, but there are no preferred subjects.

As Ian and Loretta say above, the most important thing is to do subjects you enjoy to the best of your ability. If you are missing any of the required GCSEs, sort that out now!

[FlyFreeWbe]

Dude, just to say that scroggs has totally got it right blieve, and the rest are spot on too. I'm kinda like Jordan D, doing the same subjects, but not because Im mad doing Physics & Math as some may tell ya, but I actually enjoy learning stuff like how there is no such thing as a centrifugal force (Sorry all you chemists!:D ).

I'm going into engineering myself again because I am so interested in doing it. I've always been a kinda mechanical genious since I was 5 or something (so ive been told). Ultimately flying is my goal. In the end, all you have to prove is that you're interested in flying and will do just about anything to get there!

[buzzc152]

I did A level human biology (i also have a degree in it) and am now finding it quite relevant to some of the ATPL studies. I didn't however do A level maths and now wish I had (though I can still cope with the mathmetical nature of ATPL with GSCE maths and the maths I picked up at degree).
Ultimatley go with what your good at and what you enjoy (as everyone else has said).... but if you don't mind me saying 3 a-levels in drama, art and religion or something like that probably won't be the most useful for a career in aviation.

[Boing7117]

Danny boy...

I had my heart set on an airline career from the day I started school. My intentions continued as I moved toward college. I was c**p at Maths at school but okay at everything else.

I chose Maths, Physics and English Language at A-Level. The main reason for doing Physics was because I liked it. Secondly it was a good subject to have under your belt when pressing for that airline job. Unfortunately I had to do Maths too as part of the A-Level (is this still the case??). English Language was something I had always had a knack for, that subject was the easy choice.

If you're going to become an airline pilot, (and I'm sure you will) - choose the subjects that suit you. Bear in mind the role of a pilot involves plenty of mental arithmetic, forward thinking, understanding of flight theory and everything that goes with it.

I was always told that if you had a GCSE in maths, english and science, you would always get a job, because they are "core subjects". I thought that if I had an Advanced grasp of these subjects, it would leave me in a very flexible position to go down many different routes.

For the record, I hated maths at first, but by the end of two years, if I'd have known then, what I know now.... I'd have done a degree in the flippin' subject !!

Best of luck with your A-Levels. Work hard.

[Dusty_B]

As everyone else will say, it is most important that you choose subjects that you will both enjoy and succeed in. You won't succeed if you don't enjoy it, and there is no point doing a subject just cause you enjoy it if you end up getting ***** marks - you are getting into a competitive market.

However, if you are good at maths and physics, it is well worth considering them over anything else. They will be helpful when you are studying for your ATPL.

Chemistry is hard. It was generally considered the hardest A level at my school at the time. Interesting though...

[Pilot16]

Hi,
Im a college wannabe doing A-Levels and also PPL at the weekends.
At the moment I am doing AS Physics, Electronics, Geogrophy and English Literature. Like a lot of people here, I have been a very keen wannabe since a very young age.

Being in a very fortunate position where my dad would possibly finance my training, I am planning to do my ATPLs streight after I finish my A2's, which gives full A-Levels (2004). After I get my commercial pilot license (2006) I plan to get a flying job but if this is not possible (perheps bush is plannig more wars) I intend to go back home and fly regionally, turboprops/small jets to build some valuable experience.

About the degree issue: having spoken to a senior teacher at college, I have fallen in a bit of concern if I will be taking the right decision not taking a degree. She said she knows a friend who is also a pilot and working for an airline, he recently went back to uni to get himself a degree. She didnt give any specific reason.

Having a degree is oboviously very useful, but I just cant wait that long :D what do you think?

this is why i am asking for your advise.
I would be greatful for your replies.

P16

[Pilot16]

what happened to my poll?

[YYZ to POS]

Hey, how's it goin?
I'm over here in Toronto, Canada and I'm in your situation. I can't decide if I should pursue a degree or not? I'm getting mixed opinions from many different pilots. I'm so confused!!

[Pilot16]

yeh tel me about it.
Il try a different forum. :(

[Touch'n'oops]

It's a tuff question. Both approaches do have their pro and cons.
Then again you have got to look at your own situation:

Where do you what to go?
How far do you want to go?
Have you got the cash to pay for Uni aswell?

European airlines will not turn their noses up when you lack a degree. They are more interested in if you can handle the position of manager, Oh and can you fly the silver thing!!
From what I have heard from flight schools, it is not always the Uni grads at the top of the class.

Degrees are great for when the sh$t hits the fan. But then again, you want to be a pilot, so CONCENTRATE ON IT.

You can always go later!!!;)

Good Luck

[Lucifer]

Post in wannabes if you want the lowdown, and take a look at the past queries along a similar vein in 'search'.

It all depends what you are capable of as a person - if you can get a good degree from a good university, then go for it (subject to cost etc).

If you go to a poor university, you are only wasting your time.

Take a look at www.dur.ac.uk/nuas for all about UASs - a good thing to have a look at while at uni, and especially if you want to fly in the RAF, and hence get free training.

Major plus is that a backup career can be pursued if you lose your licence medically, there are few jobs in flying (as at the moment for newly qualified pilots), or you can fund your own training better, especially if you end up earning loads post-uni (and if there are jobs in city areas etc!)

[Pilot16]

(posted this on the Quesitons forum but didnt get a good response)

How advisable is a degree?
Hi,
Im a college wannabe doing A-Levels and also PPL at the weekends.
At the moment I am doing AS Physics, Electronics, Geogrophy and English Literature. Like a lot of people here, I have been a very keen wannabe since a very young age.

Being in a very fortunate position where my dad would possibly finance my training, I am planning to do my ATPLs streight after I finish my A2's, which gives full A-Levels (2004). After I get my commercial pilot license (2006) I plan to get a flying job but if this is not possible (perheps bush is plannig more wars) I intend to go back home and fly regionally, turboprops/small jets to build some valuable experience.

About the degree issue: having spoken to a senior teacher at college, I have fallen in a bit of concern if I will be taking the right decision not taking a degree. She said she knows a friend who is also a pilot and working for an airline, he recently went back to uni to get himself a degree. She didnt give any specific reason why.

Having a degree is oboviously very useful, but I just cant wait that long what do you think? is it really worth the time? money? If yes, what is the most advisable one? aeronautical degree? Air Transport Operations (by City Uni: combines ATPL with degree[lot of money though])?

this is why i am asking for your advise.
I would be greatful for your replies.
PS. I know this one comes up a lot,
appologies for it again :-/

P16

[Crepello]

First, my position: Have a good degree and a 'normal' job, realised at the age of 26 that I wanted to fly. Bit of a late vocation.

Two years ago, if I knew what I know now, I'd have said age is on your side, focus on getting airline sponsorship & get yourself ATPL'ed as soon as possible.

Right now, alas, the job market's depressed. If I were in your position, I'd look at wethering the storm. AeroEng isn't an easy degree but it would put you in strong position for ATPL theory. I'd suggest you go for the degree. Hopefully by the time you don the gown, things will be rosier and there'll be more opportunities to build a flying career - with much less risk. You'll be in your early twenties, pretty marketable, and with something to fall back on if things don't take off - pun intended. ;)

I'm now 29 and will start ATPL Distance Learning pretty soon, after which I'll pack in the dayjob to take things further. I'd prefer to wait a couple of years but age is starting to count against me. Aww, cue the violins - and pass my zimmer!!

[scroggs]

As you say, this question comes up a hell of a lot. It's a simple matter to do a search on Wannabes, so I strongly advise you to spend an afternoon looking at what has been said before. The advice hasn't changed.

However, just to put you on the right lines, do not attempt an Aeronautical Engineering degree because someone tells you it'll help your ATPL theory! That, in a word, is crap. Oh, sure, you'll cruise the tech and PoF theory - if you've completed the degree, but this is the worst possible reason for choosing this subject. It's a bit like doing a degree in Shakespear because you've got an English GCSE coming up!

If you have no intention of being an aeronautical engineer, and the idea of doing this subject at universtity for three or four years isn't your abiding wish, then be sensible: do whatever degree most interests you - if you decide to go to uni. Employers prefer people who have completed their degrees, whatever the subject, rather than those who've dropped out of a degree they couldn't cope with.

Of course, if aeronautical engineering is (or could be) your main interest, then go do it - whether or not you intend to use it in the world of work!

Scroggs
Virgin/Wannabes Moderator
[email protected]

[Pilot16]

Thanks very much Crepello and especially Scroggs for your reply. It was very helpful.

I was wondering (while researching different courses) why an Aeronautical Engineering degree opens up so many non-aviation related jobs!

P16

[5150]

If you want to get sponsored, I'd suggest a degree as an extra 'feather for the cap'.

I was fortunate enough to get sponsored a couple of years ago, and everyone had degrees as well as PPL's.

[Crepello]

Fair enough, my link between AeroEng and ATPL was overstated. But any engineering degree would provide skills useful for ATPLs, e.g. numeracy, reasoning, managing a heavy workload... :rolleyes: If you can hack it, it'd be a damn sight more useful than Media Studies etc., but Scroggs' third paragraph is spot on.

My main point was that IMHO, it's far better to have a degree than to have not.

[eeper]

I found that a Physics A-Level was more than enough to see me through my ATPL Theory of Flight. If you like Aero Eng or can see an alternative career in that discipline then go for it. However, you are better off having a good degree in a subject you enjoy, than a poor degree in Aero Eng.

As for your initial question of whether to do a degree or not, I would say do it. As has been mentioned, the market for pilots is now quite depressed and will hopefully improve by the time you emerge from uni. Most of the airlines who sponsor seem to prefer graduates and even if they do start recruiting for cadets and you get accepted, then you can always drop out of uni. Should the pilot career not work out (and there are reasons beyond your control why it shouldn't) then you will have had a great 3 years and be well qualified to get a proper (ie well-paid!) job.

Finally, and people often forget this on this sort of thread, uni is great fun! 3 or more years of being treated like an adult with none of the responsibilities. You'll make good friends, drink far too much and emerge a much more well-rounded individual than when you went in.

[???pax]

From a graduate non-aviators perspective,

If you want to gain a degree in a subject that interests you, and you enjoy parties, booze etc, then go for it.

Do NOT waste those three years away though. There will undoubtedly be thousands of others doing the same thing and, if you do go, you need to make sure that you partake in some kind of activity that looks good on the CV.

It's so easy to do the typical student thing and become a daytime-TV guru and anybody who is interviewing you for a job will work on the assumption that you are a Bargain Hunt and Columbo expert. It's down to you to do something and if it is relevant to your intended career path then that's even better. If you can get to a UAS, give it a look. I had a couple of friends who used to dash off at weekends and do loads of flying and I envied them for it. I think the beer was cheap too!

Graduates are ten-a-penny these days so do not work on the assumption that a degree from any Uni will sort you out. Uni is an experience but it is not the real world. You will meet loads of new friends and many will last you a lifetime, but when it is all over you will look back and think of it as a phase in your life that you have passed through.


Best of luck.

[Eddington the Rodger]

tO have a degree is better than none...fact.
Having said that there is no point going to Uni if there is zero
motivation or desire for the subjects to be studied.
If you start flight training and go on to geta job you can always study your degree by correspondence.
Airlines are increasingly looking at pilot employees who do have a higher education.
Why not take a year out and travel which seems very common
among the poms.
Some life skills are better learnt at a younger age away from the aviation enviroment.
Having said all that only the lucky people inlife know what they really want to do and if the opportunity is there to start on your
chosen career then go for it.....lucky you.

[Notso Fantastic]

I'm drawing to the end of my flying career, and I have put 3 kids through Uni. If you are interested, here are some of my observations so far:

Uni is great fun, but dare I say it, not always completely practical. The legions of 'Media Studies', 'Sociology', 'Philosophy', 'Politics & Economics', 'Sports Sciences whatever' graduates will have greatly enjoyed themselves and had an all round good time, but won't particularly have equiped themselves to be valuable employees. Subjects have to be useful to others to make you attractive. By all means go to Uni if you want to, but.......

My experience in BA is that Uni cost the individuals 3+ years on the seniority scale that for some has meant delaying promotion 10 or 12 years (due to cyclical effects), and unfortunately restricted pension prospects for some- and the benefits are hard to identify apart from maybe personal satisfaction. In this context, I think Uni and flying are not mutually compatible. If you want to fly, and trust your money earning career to 6 monthly health checks, then Uni is a waste of valuable time. If you are determined to fly, get the degree later.

As for the fabled 'year out'-beware! All 3 of my children have done the trail to Thailand and the Antipodes. I find the 'education' possibilities limited, it seems to me it is largely a way of staving off the time a long term student has to get into a career market- the longer it goes on the harder it seems to be! IMO, a complete waste of time unless spent on something valuable and personnally rewarding rather than staying on a Vietnamese beach for 3 months and living like a peasant with a local family! You are probably too full of initiative to waste time like this, although it may sound superficially attractive.

That's how I see it! No arguments at me please. I'm 53 and I've had (and lived with) the experience!

[Re-Heat]

NotSo - you can cope with arguments, trust me I'm sure your kids will agree with me!

Seriously, I take issure with your politics and economics comment in particular. That degree in itself eqipped me with the most beneficial skills I could possibly have for any type of work at all. In my position (just out of univerisity) I am in no bad position whatsoever, since BA are not recruiting, and it is costing me no seniority whatsoever - many recruited while I wa at uni were over graduation age. So it may be that I am simply a lucky person at the right time, but take a look at the pages the BA courses produced on the internet - the people recruited either had degees or were experienced in the world of work and looking for a career change (sponsorship I mean)

Uni and flying did work for me - being a UAS member and in my final year a paying member of a flying club when I decided RAF wa not for me.

I am now equipped with an education that means that I can understand what sort of business situation BA is in at the moment, I had great fun at uni, I got a very good degree from the third oldest univeristy in England, and quite frankly believe I am in a better position because of it.

My account is only proof that you should listen to neither mine nor NotSoFantasic's advice in itself, but follow the route that is best sutied to YOU. Because in actual fact we are both right for different people.

[Lucifer]

Yes but nowadays it is not just a case of what is ENOUGH to see you through, but what is MORE that everyone else who also watns that job.

To be perfectly honest even being simply a graduate is not enough for many companies these days. How depressing

[niknak]

Get the best degree that you can.
Then look for the best career that suits you and your asperations.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

My experience was that a degree cost me £9,000 and 3 years. Had I not gone to Uni then I would be have become a flying instructor 3 years earlier, joined an airline 3 years earlier and be a Captain right now. The IR would have been free which would have helped.

A degree doesn't really 'help' in any demonstrable way and a gap year is nothing more than a holiday in 99% of cases.

No sponsorships require a degree.

If you get excellent A-level grades then that more or less spells out clearly your fundamental academic ability.

WWW

[Capt Pit Bull]

Very adviseable.

Better to do a decent degree, join a decent profession, then fly for fun when you want to.

Don't forget, answers you get here are biased, because there are a lot of people around that have succesfully made it into a flying career, plus others who have mostly embarked on the career path.

My advice to anyone thinking of a flying career is don't do it. If you absolutely must, then you have got to have an alternative career lined up to cater for the possibility that you never get the lucky break into a decent flying job, or you get unlucky on the hiring cycle and have to earn a crust some other way for lengthy periods, or you lose your medical.

My degree has proven to be very useful within my aviation career, let alone where I would be without the pure random elements that have luckily combined to leave me as a skipper at BA.

At the very least, if you haven't already done so, go and get a class 1 medical before you close the door on any of your options.

CPB

[Speed Twelve]

As an honours-graduate ATPL currently working as an FI and waiting for my first commercial job, I would honestly say that as far as my flying career is concerned my degree has been about as much use as a chocolate watch.

Sure, having a degree looks better on the CV, but I will echo what has been said above: do consider whether it is worth 3 (or in my case, 4) years of seniority and pay. When I was in my late teens, many of my friends went either direct-entry military, joined BA as cadets or embarked on careers as FIs, rather than go to uni. 15years later, all of them are now experienced jet aircrew, several of them captains. I, on the other hand, went direct-entry pilot in the RAF, binned it after a few months, then spent 4 years (standard in Scotland) at university, from which I graduated with an engineering degree. It has taken me a hell of a while to claw my way up the ladder to the present point where I'm flying as an FI, but consider myself to be 4 years older than I should be at this point! I originally decided to attend uni to have a 'second string to my bow', but now realise that this approach is pointless. As was mentioned, if your flying career goes tits-up for any reason you'll then have all the time in the world to go and get a degree afterwards.

A few other points; I found little advantage in the ATPL study in having a technical degree. University is great fun, but then again so is the social side of mil or airline flying. If you do attend uni then UAS is a Good Thing. Everyone I know that went through ELUAS at the time has gone on to much bigger things in either the RAF or civvy flying. As for me I couldn't get in having already VW'd from Cranditz at the old age of 21...

Finally, I would say that what seems to be a good degree choice at 17 or 18 may not seem so great 3 or 4 years later. A lot of people on my course were put off engineering for life by the end, and with hindsight wished they had spent a couple of years in the Real World first in order to have made a better informed choice. Good luck with whatever you do.

[Lucifer]

Yes, but the story for people 15 years down the line is different from those in the present day and age at 18-21.

Fact is that thanks to Blair directing most people towards university, you pretty much have to go there if you are able in order to compete anywhere, and the present situation also shows how imporatant it is to be able to change careers when the market declines, as it will time and time again in the future.

[Master Yoda]

Mate,

www.londonmet.ac.uk

They run a whole wealth of Aviation and degrees RELEVANT to Piloting!

Try the site.

Good Luck

[Pilot Paul]

Agree with most of the above, but just be aware that the way the government are thinking about funding further education at the moment, you could be paying it off for a long while (and that on top of what a frozen ATPL will cost you...)

Further info is here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/2636417.stm)

Best of luck

Paul

[Vortex Thing]

There seems to be some odd motivation going into theses answers at times. Lucifer is right on the money.

If you have the opportunity to go to uni and you don't go you're a fool. You will never be 18 again.

I went to uni and did the UAS thing and uni was the best thing that ever happened to me.

I embarrased my self, learnt a lot about myself and others and did it all before my potential employers got to know me. Had I gone straight for the guns at your age I'd probably have struggled with the maturity demanded by todays profession.

The year out is a waste of time, you have so much free time at uni that you can become a free-fall bonsai tantric underwater basket weaving instructor between leccies and have 19-25 weeks (uni dependant) a year to travel the world.

Don't be in a rush to earn cash it really won't make you that happy. The friends and relationships fromed at uni are for life and far surpass those I have ever come across except in the service.

Those chaps whinging about seniority and worrying about their kids schools need to get a life. When your start salary is more than 10k over the avg family in the country and you can afford to do mostly what you want and when you want I'd rather have the knowledge that should I get amoebic retinal failure in a few months and lose my med cat that I have my B.Sc to take into another industry.

Out of date maybe but I can do an MBA if I feel the need in a year. I wouldnt want to be a non grad in today's environment for love or money. :) :)

[Ref + 10]

Getting a tertiary education can never be a bad thing. If you are motivated and want to be a pilot then I'm sure you'll make up the time gap once you finish and lets face it, you'll only be 21 when you do. You see plenty of 20-21 year old wannabe's stacking shelves in supermarkets while trying to get that elusive first job so I believe you can make up for lost time relatively easily.

Then when the time comes for you and supermarket boy to go for the airlines surely you will have an edge because of that pretty piece of paper you have. Who knows, it may just make the little bit of difference you need to get the job!!?? You'd regret not doing it then if you were the other guy.

I did my degree for the above reason and although I'm not there yet I think I'm in the same phase of my career of most of the other pilots my age in the area.

Hope all goes well for you,
Ref.

[maxy101]

Vortex and Ref+10, Generally I would agree with you, however I do think that in aviation, there is a lot to be said for being in the right place at the right time. If you were offered a flying job straight from school, then I would take it. A similar thing happened to me, I left Uni to get a sponsorship with BA, friends of mine finished the degree, then joined BA ,however, the Gulf war intervened in the meantime. Those of us already in were o.k, but some of the guys lost 3 years flying .
University is a great life experience, but if you fit the criteria for a flying job NOW, I would take it as there is no guarantee that the requirements/criteria wouldn't change in the future. You only have to see what has happened to BA selection criteria over the last 10 yrs. I would guess that a lot of people already flying for BA wouldn't fit the new mould.

[scroggs]

The possibility that chance might, in later life, prevent or delay promotion is absolutely not a reason for not going to university! The effects of the last Gulf War on certain BA employees was bad luck, and could not have been foreseen. And many posters above assume that the choice is between a degree and a job. You should be so lucky!

As Lucifer says, those of you in school now are more likely to require a degree, in whatever field you finally end up in, than those of us whose school days are but a distant memory. While it's always possible to point to an example that proves otherwise, you have to play the percentage game. In this case, the percentage player will increase his employability (in a worthwhile career) by doing a degree. That same player would, while at university, continue applying for any and all opportunities to get into professional flying. At the end of the three years you will either have the degree or you will have found your way into aviation employment. That way, you have neither wasted opportunity nor time.

Scroggs
Virgin/Wannabes Moderator
[email protected]

[KKM]

Hi, I was faced with the same problem two years ago. I found out about a course at city university called Air Transport Operations. It includes doing your flight training in the 2nd year after studying in london for a year. I am at jerez at the moment doing my ATPL, and will go back to city next year part time.

I suggest that uni is worth going to just for the life experience more than anything else. I was wary about going straight from school to do my ATPL. Being here is nothing like uni and certainly for me uni was the greatest year of my life.

Enjoy yourself whilst getting a useful degree, thats my advice.

kkm

[Ref + 10]

Maxy101, Fair enough but looking around me at the moment I wouldn't say that jobs are abundant. There are heaps of airline pilots who are unable to get work where I am. That filters down and we are in one of those cycles where there are fewer jobs than usual. I would think in these circumstances that doing a degree would be a logical decision to make considering that you suggest going into a flying job straight away instead.

At the end of the day though it all comes down to what each person sees as their own priority...

Ref

[telboy.com]

LOCATION: London

Hi
I am 20 years of age and have finally got my head together and decided that flying is the career for me.
However, I left school at 16, when I didn't know what I wanted to do, but have recently returned to collage and successfully completed a-levels with this career in mind. I have been working hard to obtain financial security which I now posses and am in a position to start all of my flight training straight away. My only problem is that I am wondering whether I need a university degree. So many airlines/pilots/flight schools, have a mixed opinion, some say yes, some say no; I haven’t got a clue what to do.
I have worked hard in persuading the banks to lend me the money so would this demonstration of determination, along with my self sponsored flight training be enough to get a good airline job? Remember I am coming up to 21 and a degree takes 3 years and £15000 on top of flight training. I know it would obviously help but would it help me that much that it is worth investing those 3 years and that £15000 in tuition fees?

Any advice would be much appreciated.

[Dozza2k]

Hey,
I fear we are in the same boat perhaps? I am just about to sit my A levels and yes i also fully intend to become a pilot. I have spoken to some people 'in the know' and they all suggested to me that if you want to become a pilot, and have the ability etc to do so, then you shouldn't bother with a degree. I am intending not to go to Uni this September when all my mates are, i will hopefully begin flying training in Aus/USA. Having said that a positive aspect of going to Uni right now is the fact that the market may have improved by the time you leave, plus there is the uni 'experience' that everyones talking about.

This is just my opinion and that of some pilots and an aviation consultant. Don't take it as law, try and see wot other prooners suggest with this thread.
Good Luck,
Dozza:cool:

[Genghis the Engineer]

Just to start with where I'm coming from, I'm a graduate (in aeronautics) and use my degree just about every day. However, I'm not a professional pilot, I'm a professional who regularly flies as part of his job so an oddball.

In my opinion you've shown a lot of determination already by obtaining A-levels after you'd already left school, and deserve respect for that. A degree would add to your qualifications, but probably not to your show of determination.

You've said that what you really want is to fly. Clearly you appreciate that there is no absolute guarantee, but equally you are not a school-leaver who has the "easy option" of sliding straight into university clearly mapped out for them.

So, in that position, I'd suggest you are losing nothing by going straight for your flying training. If you bang out later, or get bored on long periods of standby, or want the extra qualifications to advance an airline career there are options to go to University (or study part-time), and your combination of flight training and later pursuit of A-levels will probably impress an admissions tutor.

And there are plenty of jobhunting graduates out there anyway, it doesn't guarantee a job. Ask Aerbabe who is jobhunting with a science PhD at the moment.

So, in my opinion of your position, go for flying training, but bear in mind your other options, either as-well or instead of flying training later. (I wouldn't contemplate at-the-same-time, that's not humanly possible.)

G

[Basil]

Concur with Mr Khan.
Get flying and get on that seniority list.

Basil (Left school @ 15 and then studied as necessary to achieve aims)

[My names Turkish]

I left college after a year because I had chosen Engineering and it was BORING! I only really went to do something constructive while I was waiting for the Aer Lingus Cadetship to come up again. I had applied once but not been succesful. I wanted to go flying, and when Aer Lingus stopped their cadet program I decided enough was enough. I'm now doing My ATPL in the states.

I agree with the posts but would like to add some points if I may.

I really don't know if a college degree will help you get a job, I doubt it. From there are times when I wished I had stayed and finished my degree, and theres a few reasons for that. Firstly it gives you a great security cushion. There is a chance although no one likes to consider it that you might never get a job flying. I am on a course with several people and you'll have to take my word for it because you can't meet them, are not the right material for pilots. In my opinion they are wasting there time. If you want me to go into details I will, but its off topic. Secondly, consider the possibility god forbid that you lost your medical? Its happend to people before. Or furloughed. I also have the opportunity to stay in the states and instruct, however I cannot get a work Visa because the only one I'm eligable for requires a college degree. A college education almost seems to guarantee a visa in a lot of countries, OZ, USA etc. The possibilities go on and on.

Your young enough to still do it, 21 or 25 an airline is not going to think your to old or too young. I think there are so many benefits of having that degree in your back pocket, and if I could turn back the hands of time I would certainly have stayed on and finished the degree. Good luck with whatever path you take.

(P.S sorry for the spelling and grammer, Tired to many exams)

[santan17]

I am about to graduate from the Air Transport Operations course at London City Uni.
I don't know weather it is worth your while going to Uni or not, I decided to go in case I lost my medical or something like that, at least I would have something to fall back on. If you do decide to go, ATOps has many advantages, it includes a frozen ATPL done during the scond year and the third year is part time but can be deferred if you get a flying job.

Good luck!



Santan17

[A-V-8R]

Get a degree.

I made the mistake of thinking that US Army Fixed Wing flight training would make up for the difference in not having a degree.

Wrong. It took me 14 years to get a good flying job. You can fly, and I did, Twin Otters, Shorts, Fokkers, but like me don't plan on making any money until you get a degree.

Plus if you are furloughed, a degree might help you feed yourself and your family.

The only plus side of going to flight school first is that you *might* be able to pay for your college while you go to school.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Turkish, having done a 3 year Engineering degree, I agree, the first year is boring. It would have got better had you stayed, but clearly as you say it wasn't really what you wanted to do.

Both learning to fly, and doing a degree (almost any degree) require a great deal of personal and financial commitment. Basically don't contemplate either unless you are pretty damned sure that's what you want to do.

I enjoyed my Engineering degree (so much I've been doing a second in my spare time over the last 5 years), notwithstanding the long hours, occasionally pointless maths, and somewhat laborious first year. There were other people who droppped out because it didn't suit them; well, it's probably better to learn that after 1 year than 3 or 4. But, a tough degree like Engineering (or law, medicine, physics, etc.) I'd suggest is no place for somebody who isn't interested in it. And frankly the degrees that aren't tough, probably would do nothing for your employment prospects anyway.

G

[Flying Boat]

I don't think a degree is absolutely necessary for the coursework, you must do the 650 hours minimum study, plus your flying training.
I was told that a frozen ATPL is equivalent to a Bachelors & a full ATPL is equivalent to a Masters.

The only time you appear to need a degree, or degree level quali, is if you need that £25,000 loan to help you on your way (as I am doing). The banks will help fund your training through a post graduate loan, I am with HSBC & they need a degree as part of their points descision criteria.

I have a degree level quali in Hospitality Management & got the loan agreed in 20 hours, the quali helped.

If family members are willing to fund training, you don't need the degree.

You are young so if funds are no problem follow your heart, you can retrain in another industry later when you need to be responsible if necessary.

It is up to you.

Good luck with your flying.

FB

:ok:

[DANZ]

I recommend getting a degree of some sort. I started university at the tender age of 22 after piss-farting about for 4 years after school, always with the intention of flying in the back of my mind. So, after 4 years at uni I had a B.Sc(Physics), and six months after that was into the flying full-time at the slightly less than tender age of 26!
Had a ball at uni, learned to live of $150/week and got a good degree too :ok:
Got my Multi- IR flight test in a month and haven't looked back.

[YYZ to POS]

Hey,
I'll be finishing high school this year, and I think I'll pursue a degree in something that I enjoy, before I pusue flight training.
I plan to apply for a modern langauges program because other than aviation, my other passion is langauges. You gotta have something to fall back on.
Anyone have any advice for me?
Any pilots out there have a languages degree of some sort?

-Thanks, Muchas Gracias, Merci Beaucoup!

[JohnnyPharm]

I read in one post that an fATPL is equivalent to a degree. I don't agree with this. A degree takes at least 3-4 years to complete where as the ATPL exams can be passed in 6 months.

Also once you have a degree its yours for life, a license can be pulled from you at any time for any reason.

[McCroskey]

Theres not really a right or wrong answer, you've just got to make your decision and see how things turn out. Things did'nt go too well for me so I am now going back to Uni to get a degree.

When I was 21 I started a degree in Physics but when the funding became available I quit that to go and do my long dreamed about flight training (fATPL) at Oxford. Unfortunately myself and a couple of others, in a declining pilot market, never got a nice airline job so we were left with seeking an FI job (if you could afford to get certified) or like me had to go and get any job I could find because I'd spent all the family silver on flight training and the banks wanted paying back and the bills needed to be paid.

Now with just A-levels you cant get a very well paid job infact the highest paid job I could find was in a warehouse, at this point I'd wished I'd finished my degree at least I would have been on £20k to pay for continued flying. I saved my money in the hope of becoming a flight instructor in the US but 9/11 put an end to that (also you cant get a student visa in the US if you already hold a CPL:( )

So with the pilot market looking bleak for the next few years I have taken the advice of one airline recruitment chap who I met at an airline interview (it was Aer Lingus or Britannia I cant remember which) I asked what I should do now you've just turned me down and the job market in decline (and this was pre 9/11), he said "think about getting a degree". I asked what kind of subject, he said "any subject, just get a degree it'll stand you in good stead later on" and thats a true story. I met a guy in the US who went from the right seat of an A320 one week to a B&Q type hardware store the next due to 9/11, he had no back up qualifications but still had a wife, 3 kids and a huge mortgage to maintain, scary.

I'm now 26 and going back to uni to do a 3-4 year Aerospace Engineering degree, I've no idea whether it will help me with my flying career but I know it will help me if I'm ever on the totally pennyless pilot job que again. Its like that other chap said above, no-one can take a degree off you but you can lose your licence and if the pilot market ever bombs again, maybe even in 20 years time, you'll have that back up and believe me 3-4 years literally does fly by. And if flying doesnt work out you've got a possible back up career which can give you an equally easy life (my brother got a degree in chemistry and now he's a bio-chemist working for NASA on $80,000 a year living in California
:cool: ) its not flying but he doesnt hate it.

I just thought I would give you a look at how things can go wrong and how it is always good to have options even if you never have to use them. If a bank will offer you money now they'll certainly offer you money if you've got a degree and are a bit older and hopefully the job market will be recovering. At the end of the day follow your heart, if things work out, great, if they dont then like me its never too late to go back and take things as you need them.
As a last point, once you hit 25 your considered a mature student and you get all your tution fees paid for.

[Artificial Horizon]

I think that ultimately a degree is important, once your flying career is over you need some sort of qualification to continue with. Now your flying career could be 1 year or 40 years it all depends on luck and the job environment.

I left school at 18 to pursue a flying career it has taken me seven years including 2 years of instructing but now I am 25 and in my first airline job. During my time as an instructor I have been doing a degree with the open university, I am 1/3 complete with 2 or 3 years to go. This is an option as well, to get a degree you don't have to go full time for 3 years. There are always alternatives, if like me the flying just won't wait then this could be a way to go.

At the end of the day it is your choice, I know many who are sucessful airlines pilots with or without degrees. I found that after my brain was kicked into gear with the ATPL ground school that the OU course work was a fairly easy going continuation of this.:)

[My names Turkish]

Wow, thats a sad story but I think also an important reminder to those who set out to become Commercial Pilots. While I wouldn't want to put anyone off its important to be aware of the risks. Like I said before there are people who won't make it for one reason or another and before you sign your life away make sure your really prepared to take the risk.

Cements my position that a degree is a great thing to have if time is on your side. I'm learning that aviation is very unstable. It must be a great reassurance to have something to fall back on if it all goes wrong.

[Celtic Frog]

You don'y need a degree to fly, and I've never been asked , or heard of anyone being asked, if they have one at any airline interview. Neither have I heard of anyone being given a pilots job because of a degree. In fact, not sure of statistics, but in my experience (nearly 20 years airline pilot) I reckon i's only a small minority of pilots who have a degree in anything. So if you want to fly, just get on with it...but you might want something to fall back on in later years.

[NOSIGN]

Interesting replies.

I vote degree for the reasons already mentioned. I think a degree in anything is becomming the std education these days (esp. in Oz), whereas 20 yrs ago a degree may have been more of a novelty:bored: for the bright fellows.

I have just completed a BSc (in met) fm Melb and am sitting CPL with the intention that ATPL will be complete by the end of this year. I am 23. (anybody wanna hire me?) If your full-on about it, and in hindesight :yuk:, it is not the most difficult pursuit to gain ATPL (at least say subjects) by the end of a three yr degree.

I am saying that it is possible if you have the funds, and the dedication :sad: . A science degree (where you can usually demand to do freestyle subjects like meteorolgy, navigation [Surveying dept.] etc.) typically only asks for 20 or so contact hrs weekly + "20" hrs home study! By the end of it, you will be familiar with and know your angles... understand icing problems, earn some respect, establish career contacts and friends... and have that :yuk: 'experience':yuk: :zzz: :sad: :8 :ok:

Fm personal exp. the degree doesn't take THAT long and is a fun ride. You can be a nerd and treat it as a full time job (9-17) and probably have your ATPL (subjects) complete by the end of it.:8

T.Thom likened the ATPL to 3rd yr Uni.

Safe Flying.

[RubberDucky]

My two cents,

The degree issue seems to be a bit of a have versus have-not issue, and there is a lot of emotion involved.

At the end of the day people see what they want to see with regards to the degree.

Frankly, if I'm competing for a spot with a guy with the same time, I wouldn't want to be the one without the degree.

[wing_nut1]

Hi guys,

Are A-Levels absolutley a must for sponsership these days?..its coming up to the time where i need to choose and ive been speaking to some of the people taking A-Levels and they say that if they had the choice they would not have taken them...any info would be great!!

Cheers:ok:

[Ian_Wannabe]

Hey,
If you do a search you'll find LOADS of info on this which is really helpfull.

I'm 18 and I have 4 weeks left doing A-Level, and from my experience when I asked the same question I found this:


A-Levels aren't important to get an airline job. However, if you wanna be sposored by say BA for example, their criteria ask for two or more A Levels. So if you're looking to get sponsored then its a good idea to have the qualifications.

Also, from common sense I would take A Levels. There's thousands of people who want the same job as you, so there's a high chance of not getting that job. In which case you'll need qualifications to fall back on, think of them as a safety net.

Having A Levels will make you stand out from the other CVs aswell, and A levels will allow you to move onto university which again makes you stand out from the crowd and it gives u a more secure safety net.

But all in all, DO A LEVELS THAT YOU ENJOY - Dont do maths because BA wants maths etc.

You'll find A levels hell if you're not enjoying the subjects, I did physics for three weeks!!

Enjoy, good luck and I hope this helps!

Ian

[wing_nut1]

Yeah thanks Ian, thats helped me in making a good desicion...could do with a spondership to knock down the price a bit! :D


Thanks again!!:ok:

[Inverted81]

Similar story for me, got 2 a-levels at grade c physics and Biology. Do a levels that you enjoy, but make them academic subjects.... not media studies or art etc. A subject that shows logical thinking is always good, and nowadays the emphasis on management skills seems to be important in this industry so see if there is someway that you might be able to develop these.
I gained my PPL 2 years ago, and am slowly building my hours as the cash permits, i've spoken to a training captain at BA and he told me that the credentials that i have are what they are looking for (when they actually offer sponsorship!!) the PPL is a good bonus. If i can do it, anyone can.
If you have never flown before see if you can get a trial lesson at your local field, and tell the instructor what you want to do in the future..... i've gained some of the best advice off of these guys as they themselves ultimately want to get an airline job. Join the ATC, free flying!!
Go for it, keep your eyes open, look in flight international and on pprune then you should keep ahead of the game!! Get the qualifications and aim to go to uni you never know!!!!

Chris:} :cool: :D ;)

[buzzc152]

It would be incredibly foolish not take take full of advantage of all the free education offered to you. If you don't do a-levels you WILL regret it in a few years. Personally I think universirty is a must as well if you want to get ahead these days.

[SunderlandMatt]

Okay, A-Levels I'd say everyone needs, but I've got a mate who wants to find sponsorship somewhere but he got a Third Class degree. I've told him to apply but my thoughts were that people like BA want young applicants who are very accademic.

Am I wrong?

[UKflyer]

I have to say that A-levels are not everything and that a good degree has more weight when employers select candidates. I have 1 A-level at grade D (which is not great), but a 2:1 degree. A-levels are very different, and if you pick the wrong ones then you are going to struggle. If A-levels are not for you then i would pick an alternative course that Universities accept.

I have applied to the CTC McAlpine & BA cadet schemes and have passed the application stage on both.

[wing_nut1]

Everyone,

Thanks a lot for taknig time to post your comments...i think i can safley say that i am now going to stay on for A-Levels.

Thanks to all once again!:ok:

[High&fast]

Hello everyone,

First post so I'll try to be good :ok:
I am sorry for the mistakes I could make, I'm still learning English.

I am in this situation as I am finishing High School.
I have been told by a number of involved people that there is going to be a flourish in aviation business by 2006.

I make a bet : if I begin my training now, maybe I could get my licenses just on time to "catch the train". Obtaining a degree would force me to wait till next cycle, for only a few advantages. After ten years working as a pilot, what would my degree be worth ?
But risky it is. :ouch:

On the other hand, a degree is not expensive in my country. I would "lose" a couple of years in aviation, but the benefit of it in case of medical problems would be great (-so do I hope, but no certainty)

I don't know what's the best answer.

[Military Man]

Hi

I saw your thread and ive gotta say i just had to add my bit in. I can remember early last year putting threads on like yours and the response i got was that a levels are not essential but instead of going for a levels which you think airliens will want such as Maths, Physiscs etc... go for subjects you are good at. I did not do that, i chose 4 subjects which i thought would be just what the airliens wanted and am now, at the end of my first year struggling and dropping all 4 at the end of the year to go for an aerosapce engineering course which i will njoy. My mistake was choosing 4 subjects i did not enjoy and was not particularly good at. I left the Maths course after 1 week and foolishly stayed in the Physics course after persuasion from my teacher, saying that i am not bad at physics but the college teacher is...well lets say not the best in the world.

I thought id add my bit just letting you know of my experiences because id hate to see someone make the same mistake. I just wish i had taken the advice given to me last year, but i didnt and i will never make the same mistake again so at least ive learned one valuable lesson in life.

Ah well, thats enough of me talking, good luck for the future, i wish you the best of luck at a-levles and in your future career.

Cheers Mate

MM

[Vortex Thing]

Its been said a few times above and it is ever so true.

Once you have a degree you have it for life. Your medical could go any day. Do you really want to have to wait 3-4yrs to compete with the 22 yr old grads when you had already been working for a few years.

Further, if you have a degree banks like to lend you cash. Further yet, what if you can't get a job in aviation straight away? If you have a degree, whilst you are eeking a living and waiting to get on the ladder you can earn a proper salary (with the right degree)

Yes, it will have little use in ten years but it will always show that more rounded person who has gone that little bit further whatever your age. And like veryone says if the CVs are similar another tick won't harm.

A degree is essential in this day and age it's not just a paper academic qual its a life qual.

I graduated in Microelectronics Systems and Artificial Intelligence in 1994 having had the best and worst 4 years of my life. I met people from all walks of life, travelled the world, met loves, lost loves made friends, lost friends but the experiences I had were those that can never be repeated.

You are only 18-22 once (well any age once but it all gets quite serious after that) and you musn't waste the chance to go. You have nothing to loose. The industry is in a state, go get a degree and do your ATPL exams in your spare time ready to go straight into flying trg when you grad.

GO please for pities sake GO.:ok:

VT

[CraigL]

"Had a ball at uni, learned to live of $150/week and got a good degree too."

HOW MUCH?!!! I had to make £20 stretch a month and a half not long ago here at uni.

[CASHMONEYMILLIONAIRE]

I wouldnt bother with a degree! You dont need a degree to be a pilot, only a serious amount of money. With a degree you arent (by a longshot) guaranteed any training whatsoever to be a pilot! unlike a Solicitor/Accountant etc etc.It was already bad enough trying to get sponsored, but because of the recession in the pilot industry recently, Ie, british airways cancelling their sponsorship after 9/11 ,(not sure whether they have resumed), but they only took on 150 out of 5000+ candidates thats a whopping 3%!!!! 4850 get rejected! All with 2 'A Levels' or a degree. Believe me you have to 'Know your Stuff' ! . I met someone who got sponsored and he certainly did.
If i was you......i'd become a chiropodist. Dont hassel yourself with the hassle of pilot training. Getting yourself into debt for a degree, and the further with loans loans loans, is an error of judgement. My point is, if you study for a degree for 3/4 years your gonna be well peeved if you cant get sponsored.

[maxy101]

Wow! Lots of different opinions and advice! As one who left a degree course in the second year to join the BA sponsored pilot scheme, all I can say is it has worked for me. One of the guys I knew who stayed and finished his degree also got sponsored later but is two years behind in seniority. However, if we both lose our jobs in the future, he certainly will have a better chance of finding a job. However, that has to be weighed up with the fact that in an airline , seniority is EVERYTHING. If we were to downsize dramatically, the axe swings from the bottom. A bird in the hand .....As some of the previous writers have mentioned, there is nothing stopping you studying part time later, once you´ve moved into the right hand seat of your new job. Hope this helps...

[Flysmurf]

but what if you get yourself a BS in aeronautical sciences at eg. Embry Riddle University, I took a good look at this programme and I don't know what else you can do with this degree besides flying really.... I don't think it's ok to just pick a programme that you like, you have to be sure you can fall back on it

[High&fast]

Well, it's been time for me to choose :confused: .
I shall... go to uni !

What's decisive is the fact that you keep your degree whatever the economical situation. The world's going faster everyday, and such a guarantee will be helpful in the future. It surely will.

Seniority... Yes, that's an important point but I prefer living modestly with a degree than without. I'll be a beginner some day anyway.

And if a airline finds it good for its recruits to possess a diploma, so much the better !

Thanks for your replies !
:ok:

[cortilla]

Right that's it, i've finally found the guts and the incentive (girlfriend and parents constantly whinging) to go out and get myself a university degree (part time). The question is what degree, (hopefully can do it in the midlands). I want to do something aviation related, or at least something mechanically orientated. Any suggestions from anyone.

[rsoman]

Cranfield has an Executive MSC (Part Time) version of its highly regarded Air Transport MSc Programme.

Details here
http://www.cranfield.ac.uk/prospectus/soe/airtans1.htm

Cheers

[df1]

Whats that then? Sounds intriguing!

I avoided Uni for a number of reasons - but now would like to have the benefit and satisfaction of a degree. I keep looking at places like the open university for something that would compliment aviating. Other than engineering (perhaps too specific) there doesn't seem much to go at.

If there is anyone who's been and done one of these Aviation technology (or similar) courses, please let me know. Are they of direct benefit to pilots? And what are the entry requirements/conditions?

Cheers.

[ecj]

MSc in Air Transport Management at City University London

www.city.ac.uk/atm

or

www.corp-visions.com

[Diamond 'katana' geezer]

DF1,

I'm currently on the Aviation Technology with pilot training course at University of Leeds. Just finished my first year.

In answer to your questions; The Leeds course is only one year old so nobody has actually graduated yet, so the benefits/costs of the course are still a little bit of an unknown. Entry requirements for the first year were quite low due to the applicant having to drop inot a process called 'clearing' and then re-enter the university application system. This doesn' t matter anymore as for the students starting in September everything is sorted. However, last time i spoke to my tutor at the university he was contimplating raising the entry requirements to ABB/AAB purely due to the number of applications they have recieved for the 2003/2004 course.

IMHO the course is excellant. The flying side is only a very small part of the course, i have a 23 hour flying session coming up in September, others on my course have already started this training. The technology side is very interesting, i get the impression that it is more a course aimed at students wanting to be pilots, as the technology side is very indepth and sometimes difficult.

Overall, i've found it a good course, which i hope will stand me in good sted for the job's market, especially if i ever fail that medical :eek:

please post if you have any other question's

GeeZ:cool:

[cortilla]

i'm thinking of an undergrad degree first and cranfield only does postgrads. I also spent 14 months in cranfield, and never want to spend another night there.

[wobblyprop]

What ever you do make sure it is something you will enjoy/are interested in.

There is nothing worse than studying for something that doesn't float your boat.

[Pirate]

You should look on a degree as your parachute, against an unfortunate turn of fate which might stop you from flying in the future. As mentioned above, it is important that you study a field that interests you but it should be a rigorous discipline from a respected university. Employers have long been lukewarm, to say the least, about arcane subjects from former bottom-drawer polytechnics. As a general rule, avoid any course with the word "studies" in the title.

Above all, arrange your life so you can enjoy studying.

[df1]

Thanks for the help folks.

GeeZ:cool: , check your PM's

Ta.

[jamup]

London Mteropo;itam University has come up wth a new Degree , Airline Ops and Managemnet , and also a foundation dehgree , IF U have your JAR ATPL theory then you ll have to do only little ,,,

Why not try ,,, anyway they seems like a friendly nice bunch , specially the Two Ladies at the reception , they will help you out ,,,,

JAMUP

[spils]

i did aerospace systems engineering at coventry which did it for me!!

[Diamond 'katana' geezer]

df1 did you get my e-mail?

[df1]

Yes, thanks Geez,

Just sent one back. :ok:

[Pilot16]

I cant find information about the third year program (Honours top-up) for the foundation degree in Aiation Mangement and Operation by London Met :rolleyes: Going to have to give them a call :ugh:

Im strongly considering this option because of the chance of doing the ATPL full time during the second year, complete remaining flight training too (as I would have done much of it by then) otherwise if i do some other degree, ATPL will go along side other studies (distance learning) or AFTER a four years wait from now, holding everything up :\

[I. M. Esperto]

Considering how shaky the airline business is, I'd get a degree usefull in another field.

Our #6 wanted to fly, got his private, did well, and kept looking, while earning a BS in Accounting. He just upgraded to a MBA from The Wharton School in PHL, and is pulling down $115,000 plus great fringes.

Steady work, end enjoyable. He's headed for higher places.

[busz]

Well, im starting my degree in Air Transport Management at Loughborough on the 24th September. I figure that if i can't fly planes, i may as well manage the people that do :cool: . It is a full time degree though, although it is a very well respected university. It also happens to be in the Midlands, in fact only a few miles from East Midlands airport. Speaking of which, does anyone know of any part time jobs available there, i will need the money.

Alex:ok:

[Pilot16]

Hi....
pleease pleease advise on which degree! I had posted before but my other one i figured was too lengthy and no one replied...

which degree would you advise out of these:

1) BSc Aviation Management
2) FDSc Aviation Management and Operations
3) FDSc Aircraft Engineering

I really am stuck, and my choices have boiled down to these three...

Regards.
Thanks in advance.

[Squak2002]

I think the most important question is which one could you really see yourself doing if life as a pilot was not an option.
If you are more Business orientated and enjoy how organisations are run, then go for the Aviation Management degree.

If you enjoy the complex details of Aircraft mechanics and want to understand more about how and why they fly, than that might be the one for you.

I don't think anyone will make it easer to get a job and employers will just see a "Degree". Although, I think Aircraft Engineering will make it easer to understand the ATPL modules.

I picked Business and HR!!

Anyway,

Best of Luck

[interlink]

I reckon Aeronautical Engineering is a top bet - UWE in Bristol does a great course

[Zimbu]

...oh please!

This is your life and your choice.....why are you even going to university, if you can´t even make your mind up which degree you want to do!

Why not do something that REALLY interests you, rather than a degree for just the title as it has the word Áircraft´in the title!

Study whats right for you...get good grades....get a decent job to earn some dosh and maybe then, you might be able to secure some money to embark on your ATPL training! Good luck...you´ll need it!

[silverknapper]

Disagree with interlink, Aero eng is a bloody hard degree - if you want to be an aero engineer do it, don't otherwise.
Zimbu is right IMHO, we don't know you or your skills and weaknesses.

[Pilot16]

Hi thanks for all the replies... I too think aeroengineering is some hard degree
as Ive heard from a lot of people who have done the course...

I am a bit of 'technical' person and like hands on work. If Im not a pilot (i hate to think Im not!), A/C Engineering would be the next best thing...

Aviation management has its own advantages...

hmm, I think now its down to me and I should not rely on Prruners too much, there seems to be a WIDE range of opinion. The help I got from here is tremendous, and I totally appreciate it.

Some say since I have my PPL, should go streight into ATPL...
others say university life is not to be missed and I should have a degree as a back up plan and to become mature...

Ill just have to wait and see how it all turns out.

Thanks for all the help :ok:

[Benix]

All i would say about the Aero Engineering degree is that it is bloody hard!! I decided that it would look good to airlines to have the course on my CV, but to be honest I think it was a bad choice. I am still training for ATPL so don't actually know if it will make a difference yet, but i struggled all the way through the 3 years and only just managed to pass the degree at the end. Although is has helped my with some of the ATPL subjects, I think it would have been a better choice to have done a subject that i really enjoyed and was good at instead. Cos in the end of the day if i was employing some one I would prefer some one who got a really good grade in a unrelated subject, than someone who just managed to scrape through doing a related subject. Maybe Airlines don't think that way... who knows... there's my 3p worth any way...

[C172Navigator]

Pilot16

Go and speak to people currently taking the courses. Find out what's involved. Get hold of literature for the courses. You can't make your mind up from people opinions here. Ask yourself what is in the course. The name of a degree course and its content are not as closely linked as you may think. Many courses have options too, so the final title of the degree won't be decided until you've made your final year options.

Good luck.

[razzele]

can i get course credit for a degree if i have passed all atpl modules...

[mad_jock]

As for course.

Get a nice broad degree which can be used for anything.

eg Mech Eng.

Remember the biggest skill you are learning by doing an engineering degree isn't all those equations. Its teaching a method of approaching problems and solving them in the most cost effective manner.

As i found after a few career changes these skills are universal in application. They work just as well in IT as they do with big lumps of metal, lots of wires etc.

As for ATPL giving you credit, if the University does give you credit its not one I would have liked to be at anyway.

The ATPL's are less than first year standard and in the none tech subjects below A-Level standard.

The other thing to think about is are you a born engineer?
Might sound a strange question but there are definatly 2 types of engineers going to university.

1. Academic types who don't really know what they want in life but Engineering seems like a good career compared to the rest.

2. Born Engineers who have a gut feeling about structures systems etc. The skills learned at Uni have only given them the tools to prove what they knew already. Back of a fag packet calc's. Also a tendency to fix everything themselves is shown.

MJ


Ps if you do engineering this next hint took me 3 years to sus out then it was all easy

energy in = energy out

Account for all the energy going into a system and it will equal the energy going out. Sounds easy but energy is fly stuff and the skill is knowing where its got to.

[BigGreenPleasureMachine]

It constantly surprises me that many people graduating from engineering degrees end up (and fully intended to be) pursuing careers not remotely connected with engineering. Always strikes me as a waste of everyone's time.

If you want to be an engineer if the ATPLs don't work out, do engineering.

If you want to be a manager, do the manangment ones.

Zimbu has a point (rather indelicately put, i thought) that you, and possibly your teachers and your folks, will know where your skills lie. Three or four years is a long time to study something if you find you don't like it, or dont have the aptitude for it.

For what its worth, i did a four year aero (avionics) degree, had a cracking time, got a geoff hurst, spent a year on the bru and am now off to cranfield to get my teeth into another degree. Having a university qualification isn't the golden safety net many on this forum believe it to be.

When making your choice, take into account what is offered on this (and other) threads, but make sure you get as much advice from teachers, career advisors, parents, peers etc. and never start a degree without visiting the campus. I had a very close call with salford a few years back. Still occasionally wake up in a cold sweat:-)

Regards,
BGPM.

[mad_jock]

:D about Salford what a dump


That last post beings on another point.

Don't get a too specialised subject. All it does is pin you down to an industry. And if that industry is going down the pan just as your graduated your stuffed. Because employers will take the new meat coming out rather than the old which hasn't been practising.

As for Engineers careers

Out of the 110 that graduated my year

40 went into finacial services eg Anderson etc

5 went into teaching

5 went into the Police

15 went post grad

1 pilot for BA.

And the rest went into normal engineering jobs.

Please note thats 100% employment rate

From the last mag I got from the Alumini reckoned only about 8% of graduating Engineers stay in practise and most of them had 2.2 which leads me suspect that these where actually the back of a fag packet types.

As i said before engineering teaches a mind set to problem solving in a logical maths way. Employers from all industrys know that and the track record for engineers proves this.
I seem to remember that there was great amusment when the engineers that went on to sit the chartered accounts exams got a better pass rate than the accountants that graduated from the Buisness School.

MJ

[Jonnypiano]

Hi, I don't know whether this is the right forum category to post this question to, but there are so many, so this seemed the most appropriate at the time.

I'm 16 years old and I'm currently doing my GCSE exams. I am determined to become an airline pilot, but am not sure about what to study in order to stand out enough in order to become one.

My current status is as follows. For A-Level I have chosen to take Maths, Physics, Computing and Music Technology. The reason I take Maths is because it will support Physics and is a good subject to have, and is necessary for my current university intentions. Maths is also good for Computing, and both Computing and Physics would be good for being an Airline Pilot. Music Technology is a break from the other 3 subjects as I have a large interest in music also. I plan, or planned, to study Aerospace Engineering at Bristol University. I currently take part in Virtual Aviation (VATSIM) - www.vatsim.net - and am yet to go up in a light aircraft with a friend, but that's it.

I currently despise maths GCSE, but have been told that maths A-Level - Mechanics, which I am taking - is a lot more 'fun'. However, this is coming from somebody doing a MEng degree at UMIST and has a big interest in engineering. People on the VATSIM forums have told me that I should do the subjects that I enjoy and will do well in, not the subjects that I think airlines want me to study. They also say that Maths A-level isn't really required for being a pilot, nor is any Engineering degree at University, but of course, Maths is required for an Engineering degree.

I want to be able to go to university and study SOMETHING, however, but I really am not sure what to study. My main interests lie in Aviation of course, Filmmaking, and Music. I wouldn't really want to study music though, as I'm not a serious musician.

I have also been advised that I personally might not like an Engineering course, and to be honest I'm surprised I am planning on taking such a course as a few years ago I would never have pictured me taking an engineering course.

So at the moment, I'm stumped for what course at university to study, thus what A-Levels to do. One thing I'm currently sure about is that I would get full pilot training with CTC-McAlpine, and then try and get employment with Easyjet, fingers crossed that I'd get employed.

I would be grateful for any suggestions that people may have concerning what to study at University, and thus what A-Levels to study.

Thanks

[Mooney12]

At least your thinking about it, which is more than I can say for myself when I was your age.

Basically if you were to do maths and physics at A-Level followed by an engineering degree at university then there is no doubt that would help towards your ambition to become a pilot.

However there is no point doing maths, physics etc and getting a D and an E or something which would not allow you to go to university. You have to strike a balance, if you despise maths at GCSE then perhaps thats not the best option. You'd be letting yourself in for a miserable couple of years, perhaps. Maybe doing physics without the maths would be a good idea, replacing it with a subject you are more interested in.

[scroggs]

There is no requirement for any pilot to have studied Maths beyond GCSE level, let alone have studied Engineering of any sort at University. The suggestion that degree-level maths or engineering is particularly attractive to airlines is a fallacy; a myth propounded mainly by Wannabes who substitute poorly-informed logic for knowledge.

There is no requirement for any pilot to have studied anything at degree level, though having a degree may make you more attractive if you are attempting to get a sponsorship. However, none of the sponsorship programmes demand any higher qualification than A-level. If you decide that you wish to take a degree, do it in a subject you are sure you will be able to maintain your entusiasm for, and interest in, for the three years of the course. It would also be an idea to study a subject which may lead to an alternative career if flying doesn't work out - but then, as has often been pointed out before, you may be better off learning plumbing or bricklaying.

So, what qualifications does a pilot need? Almost all the employers that operate sponsorships require 5 GCSEs at Grade C or above (to include Maths and English Language), and two A2s in 'mainstream' subjects. If you're not going for a sponsorship, the only qualification you'll need is a fully-validated frozen ATPL with MCC, and, of course, a class 1 medical. And preferably a few hundred hours in jets - but that's another story!

Scroggs

[Super VC10]

When Britannia ran their last sponsorship scheme they required two of the following three A-Levels as a minimum requirement:

Maths
Physics
Economics

This is probably specific to BY though...

[Jonnypiano]

Thanks, but again I'm still unsure as there are pros and cons to every suggestion.

For example, in response to the first reply, if I were to do Physics without the Maths - then I wouldn't be able to do engineering in university. But then again, maybe as Scroggs says, I could just study something that I'm more likely to have enthusiasm for, and not do maths A-Level.

Again, though, it's standing out and being attractive to the airlines that's the problem, and I worry that when people tell me to study what I want to study they're actually helping the airline industry by filtering out the potentially incapable ones from the true potential pilots.

Is there something you can study in university that is to do with aviation and aerospace, but isn't engineering? And is more closely related to aviation itself? Or would that just be ATP training?

Oh wait, but I just thought, the first person to reply said that an Engineering degree would look attractive... argh!

Aha! Just seen the post about Britannia. Well, if they required Maths, Physics and Economics, then... well maybe I SHOULD do Maths after all, being an attractive subject and all that, and if Britannia want it, then I'm sure other airlines would appreciate it. Economics... I think my second cousin did that, or was it Ergonomics... and he's a pilot for British Airways. He recommended this site to me. I'll look into that. Then I'll have to see what university degree to do. Economics sounds very 'piloty' as well, from what I've heard. Seems a lot of pilots study this at A-Level.

[scroggs]

You are going to get yourself in a mess if you base your academic future on what mates have said, or even on what you read here - unless you weight the opinions that you listen to according to the qualifications of those that hold them. That's a hint, Johnny. Check my profile and investigate some of the advice I've given to others. I am not a wet-behind-the-ears Wannabe; I am an airline pilot with over 12,000 hours and an abiding interest in trying to ensure that would-be pilots get good advice. I've been in the flying business for 27 years, and in training and recruiting (for the RAF) for a good proportion of that.

Now, if you are intent on getting a sponsorship to fly for an airline, you are going to have to study the requirements of those airlines and organisations that offer sponsorships. In the last year that has included Britannia, FlyBe, and easyJet (through CTC). There have been very limited part-sponsorships from other airlines, but they are fairly insignificant in the scheme of things. British Airways, whatever you have heard elsewhere, are not operating any kind of sponsorship scheme and have not done so since early 2002.

Go and check the web sites of these organisations and find out the required qualifications for yourself. If it really interests you, go and look at other, non-sponsoring, airlines and see if they define any kind of academic qualifications at all for direct-entrant pilots - you'll find that the vast majority don't.

It seems to me that you are not confident that you have the interest or ability to pass Maths at A2, or an engineering subject at degree level. Only you can answer this truthfully, but you will be wasting your time (and possibly your parents' money) if you embark on a course that you are destined to fail - and you will get no credit for that from anyone. Pilots with engineering degrees are no more or less valuable to an airline than pilots with music degrees - you will never be asked to use the skills of either discipline whilst flying your aeroplane. Please do not counter that 'it's obvious' that engineering degrees count for more - they don't. Believe me and move on.

If you wish to study aviation engineering because the engineering of aircraft structures and so on is your abiding interest, go and do it - and enjoy it. But I'd have to ask why you wanted to become a pilot if engineering is your passion? Equally, if you are passionate, knowledgeable and confident in, say, music technology, why not do a degree in that? The 2:1 you'll get in that standing on your head is far more useful than a fail in an aviation-related subject. You ask about other aviation subjects; well, there are a few courses in airline management and operations (see other threads in the Wannabes forums), and I'm sure they're good courses - though some are professional-enhancement products aimed at people already in airline ops and management. Get some information about them, and, if you feel that you can make a good job of one of them, give it a go. The course literature will tell you what the university believes are appropriate A-levels for these courses, which will help you decide which A-levels to take. These courses may make you marginally more attractive to some employers, but most won't be that fussed. It's a degree, which is very nice, but they're employing you as a pilot, not an airline manager. On the other hand, one of these degrees may be the second string to your bow that we try to advise Wannabes to have....

Is there a bottom line? Not really. You must carefully research the routes you could take to getting into flying. There are quite a few, and their academic requirements will be significantly different. Once you have a firm grasp of the facts obtainable by careful study of university and airline websites, you will have a clearer idea of wht may be required of you. Above all, do not base any career-influencing decisions on the opinions of mates or anyone else who hasn't been there, seen it, and got several of the T-shirts.

Scroggs

[Jonnypiano]

I'm glad to hear that having a Music degree or an Engineering degree makes no difference, especially coming from a pilot as experienced as yourself.

I suppose, yes, Aerospace Engineering or not, there's no difference, because at the end of the day you get the required training to be an ATP anyway. However, I was talking to my friend Joe again last night, he's the one studying MEng... he just thinks that if you know exactly how an aircraft works, you're going to fly it better. I mean, it's true, if you know how a computer, or car works, you can use it/drive it better. But, it is probably a better idea to study something I have an interest for rather than something I assume airlines want.

"It seems to me that you are not confident that you have the interest or ability to pass Maths at A2, or an engineering subject at degree level."

No, I'm not confident at all. I find Higher Maths GCSE hard enough as it is.

"You will never be asked to use the skills of either discipline whilst flying your aeroplane. Please do not counter that 'it's obvious' that engineering degrees count for more - they don't. Believe me and move on... If you wish to study aviation engineering because the engineering of aircraft structures and so on is your abiding interest, go and do it - and enjoy it. But I'd have to ask why you wanted to become a pilot if engineering is your passion?"

Yes, true. I have to say, that is a weight off my back, and I can focus more now on other important issues instead of having a vague blur.

Out of interest, if you don't mind - could I just ask what you studied at A-Level and University, Scroggs?

Thanks a lot for your advice

[stick&rudder]

Jonnypiano,
Im currently on the aeronautical engineering course at Bristol Uni. The course is very hard work, and a lot (if not most) of it is not particularly fun even for someone obsessed with aircraft! With regard to maths, you will need a pretty high standard- i found GCSE pretty easy, Alevel less so, but something like 10-15% of the year have an alevel in further maths at a grade A. many more at a lesser grade. I didnt do further maths (ecept for a couple of extra units) and i stuggled with some of the maths at uni. I'm not saying you need to enjoy maths, just be competent at it. I dont want to put you off is its what you want to do, but dont do it as just a way to an airline job. Many people drop out for this reason. However if you find engineering and aircraft interesting and you can handle the maths then go for it, it is a very rewarding degree, you feel you learn a lot and im sure it wont harm you r career prospects!
Sorry for such a negative response but i thought my viewpoint might be helpful.

[scroggs]

Thanks Mike!

Johnny, I didn't go to university. I did Maths and Physics at A-level, but failed physics - because I hated it! I wanted to do Maths, English and Music but my school wouldn't let me mix arts and sciences (this was the early '70s!), and I couldn't drop Maths because that was the stream I had been in since I was in the 4th year. It was a daft system, and I couldn't see the logic of it then, let alone now.

What I did do was go to work in various engineering companies and learned the hard way how things worked. I took cars and motorbikes apart in my spare time - and occasionally put them back together again. I raced karts for many years, doing my own mechanic-ing, and I did a bit of gliding. While at school, I joined the RAF CCF (a public-school version of the ATC), and, with a group of friends, started a Venture Scout troop. These two organisations gave me access to all sorts of opportunities to increase my education in more adventurous subjects.

After three years of going from job to job, in England and Germany, I joined the RAF as a pilot - with 5 O-levels, 1 A-level, no degree, and wearing glasses. I knew more than enough to understand how my aeroplane worked, at a time when the RAF practically expected its pilots to be able to rebuild an aeroplane single-handed! God knows why...

Now, as an airline pilot, I am not expected to know anywhere near as much about my aeroplane. And the guys and girls I fly with have hugely varied backgrounds - and very few of them have engineering degrees. In fact, not that many have degrees at all. So don't worry about being able to understand what the aeroplane is doing; you'll learn far more about that when you begin flying training. And don't worry about impressing an airline with your qualifications. Just concentrate on getting the best results you can in subjects that interest you, and, if you must do a degree, do it in something interesting and useful.

Scroggs

[Jonnypiano]

Now that IS interesting, and reassuring considering you've got so far but without what I thought was absolutely necessary in order to get a job as an airline pilot.

That's funny... my Dad used to go Karting in the 70's... and took apart his Alpine A110 and rebuilt it... we've still got that, 'tis a beast of a car, yes. In fact, my Dad wanted to be a pilot, but now he's a Design Engineer.

Well, I've decided to change my Maths A-Level to English. I originally wanted to do English, but decided not to because of other subjects I wanted to take. However, I've always been good at English, the teachers have said I'm more than capable, and I'm interested in it, I like to write, I like discussion and the great thing about the subject is, there's no right or wrong answer, like with maths. So it's a lot more relaxed, in that sense. It's also just very interesting, about communication and media, I mean I've always been good at doing coursework on those aspects, but not as well on Lit... plus, English is in the same tier as Maths, so it will be a good subject to take. PLUS, English is a supporting subject for my alternative career, cinematography. Oh yeah, I heard that in the A-Level English course you learn about how air traffic control communicate... that'll be a fun few lessons ;) .

Anyway, I have to say thanks very very much for your advice, it has really sorted me out and made me more focused (and relaxed).

-------------------
Jonathan

PS> My Dad was driving past John Lewis, Cheadle today. This Porsche Boxster was constantly up the back of him, until eventually GOING into the back of him. Oh well, most of the damage was made to the Boxster because it went under the bumper of my Dad's Merc. Turns out the driver of the Boxster was a pilot on his way to the airport! Hope he's not like that all the time... ;) (Have I spelt Boxster right? Boxster... Boxter...)

[scroggs]

Like this? :cool:

[Straightandlevel80kt]

Jonnypiano

You sound like a great kid with your head screwed on. You have youth and enthusiasm on your side, and I really hope you make it as a pilot.

As someone who hasn't made it yet, but has the wisdom of how not to do things(!), my best advice to you is as follows:

1) Don't get into debt.
2) Don't get into debt.
3) Learn to manage your money i.e. don't spend more than you earn (www.fool.co.uk for more info!)

That's the important bit out of the way, now down to business...

4) Whatever you do at GCSE and A-Level, do it well. Don't p1ss about in your A-Level study periods like I did. The academic jump was not difficult for me, it was the requirement to be responsible and manage my own time that I struggled with. Do a course you're interested in. If you want to be a pilot I'd recommend Maths, Physics and possibly a foreign language (so those cheeky European controllers can't catch you off guard!!)

5) If you're going to do a degree, it might be as well to do something business, finance or law related. You don't need a degree to be a pilot, but at least if that fails, you can still own the airline(!) and in all seriousness, anyone(?!) can fly a plane but airlines are looking for senior managers in their flight crew - it's a business after all - and a cut-throat one at that.

6) Don't do engineering - or anything else - just because you think it might help you become a pilot. Do it because you want to do it. It's important to stay focused. Either you want to be a pilot or you want to be an engineer/ designer/ whatever....

7) Get some experience. Get down your local flying club and help out at weekends or join the ATC or University Flying Squadron. Don't expect to be paid or to get any flying necessarily, but be enthusiastic to learn. If you can get some flying in, great (e.g. as a birthday present).

8) Read flying books - e.g. Trevor Thom's Air Pilots Manuals 1-7. Borrow these if you can. There may be some older editions kicking around at local flying clubs. It's good background for when you start your flying lessons.

9) Apply for reputable sponsorships such as CTC as early as possible. You may have to re-apply several years in a row, and age 26 comes round quick!

10) Learn to take rejection and move on!

11) Failing all of the above, join the RAF. It's got to be the best, most reliable and most rewarding route to a flying career out there.

Can't think of anything else to add, except to wish you all the best!

[stuartpearson]

JP,

Seeing as you appear to be a member of the elite 0.1% of PPrune posters capable of stringing a grammatically correct sentence together, English sounds like a fine choice of A-level to me. You even spelt Boxster correctly.

Good luck with your GCSE's, A-levels, degree, and after that little lot, career. And do have fun in the meantime too!

P.S. I do not claim to be a part of that elite 0.1%.

[Jonnypiano]

Thanks a lot for your replies.

"5) If you're going to do a degree, it might be as well to do something business, finance or law related."

Hmm... I see where you're coming from but the problem there is, if I didn't get a job as a pilot, I'd end up with a job I'd be deadly bored with when I could have been in L.A. making music videos for Muse :p

"6) Don't do engineering"

I agree, I'm no longer going to do that, no way.

"7) Get some experience."

Yeah, that's something I need to do, however I wouldn't want to join ATC because it's very RAF themed, and to be honest I'm not into the whole scouts thing. I'll have to see about that, though.

"8) Read flying books"

Yes, I've planned on getting some books. I'll try to sign up to an Airliner magazine as well eventually, but not too sure whether to sign up yet as they seem very business-related.

"9) Apply for reputable sponsorships such as CTC as early as possible. You may have to re-apply several years in a row, and age 26 comes round quick!"

Life is too short.

"11) Failing all of the above, join the RAF.

Now I thought about this, but I read on the website that you are destined to something like 16 years service with them.

"Can't think of anything else to add, except to wish you all the best!"

Thank you!

----------

"English sounds like a fine choice of A-level to me. You even spelt Boxster correctly."

Haha, yes, I think I'll do alright in English.

"Good luck with your GCSE's"

Thanks, I'm going to need it to be honest, they are absolute hell...

-------------------

"I got a sponsorship having studied the following subjects:

A level: English, Business Studies, Law

Degree: English

I also got plain old C grades for maths and the sciences at GCSE."

That's good to know, considering I'm taking English A-Level and that you even got Sponsorship with C Grades. I was always told to try and maintain As and Bs, because they look good on a CV - which is true, but at least there's some hope if I do bugger up maths, which I seem to be doing at the moment.
However, you took Business Studies and Law... both subjects that seem to have been batted around this post as subjects to study, especially Business Studies. Well I haven't done Business Studies GCSE, so I don't know whether that would affect it, and I suppose I don't HAVE to do Business Studies... I hope that English, Computing, Physics and Music Tech would suffice.

Well, it all seems good, and looks as if it's just a case of getting good grades and sponsorship, and remaining focused.

Thanks a lot for the advice, it's been a considerable help, it's changed my A-Level and University plans!

[Straightandlevel80kt]

I've had a re-think.

Forget the flying and go make music videos!

:D

[Jonnypiano]

LOL!

D'you think?

[akshaym84]

Hi,

I did Maths, Economics, History and Geography. I got As in all but Maths, in which I got a B. I wasn't best pleased about it but I knew deep down that I deserved it because I wasn't good enough and I didn't enjoy the subject. However, I worked hard and even though you might not want to do Maths (like I didn't want to), it really does pay off and as does the hard work. Anyway, a B is still a good grade (its the only way I can live with myself :() Having said that, English is also a very good subject to take.

I'll end with the same advice that was given to me:

Keep your subjects varied yet enjoyable, as they will enable you to choose many university courses and future careers. Think long-term (as you already are) and know that hard work always pays, even if you don't enjoy it at the time. :ok:

[Re-Heat]

I did what I was best at - Maths, Physics, German and History (AAAB), then went on to do an Economics and Politics (2:1) degree. Although I am not a good example, since I am not yet working in aviation, I did pass the partial OASC for the flying scholarship, and got into the UAS while at uni, so I guess I was doing something right - i.e. getting good grades and being a rounded person.

If sponsorships come up - I've maintained interest in aviation and kept up different activities to be well-rounded enough. If they don't, and being 23 time is running out for them given the market conditions, I'll qualify as an chartered accountant next year and give my all to save for an ATPL; or go the CTC route.

I didn't even consider engineering as it's not for me: I doubt that will hinder me unless a specific requirement (which it isn't), but hopefully the business experience will be a plus. What I consider favours me more are the activities I have done, such as joining the RAeS, UAS, sport etc. Ultimately in the absence of sponsorships these won't matter if the job depends upon having an ATPL and type rating, but I've created the means for myself to get there and the backup career isn't bad either thank you very much!

Do what interests you academically, focus on what you need to do to get there, but don't lose sight of the fact that you need to somehow pay for aviation if sponsors don't materialise, and ensure that if you do something else first, you might consider doing it instead of flying as medical don't always go your way. Backup plans always help and can fund the passion!

[Jonnypiano]

Good point, I'd never really thought that a backup career could also provide the money ;)

Thanks for the advice, it's been a lot of help.

Jonathan

[Jimmenycricket]

For any of you who may have a university degree, do you find that it helped you in any way to become a pilot? I am going to school in the fall, and am starting to wonder how much it will really help in the long run.

[The African Dude]

See you're in Uxbridge. Are you coming to Brunel?

There have been quite a few topics on this over the years and a search would prob yield some very useful answers, although you might find them in the Ground Studies forum as opposed to Questions.

General impression seems to be that it is very much down to mixed individual opinion as to whether it will help or not.

All the best and good luck with whatever you're doing, and if it's at Brunel don't hesitate to drop me a PM.

Your friendly african dude!

Andy

[the boy John]

JC, don't waste your time on university if you want to become a pilot!

Congratulations on starting school, it is very important if you want to be a pilot; work hard, learn to tie your own shoe laces, make sure you do well enough in junior to get into a decent High School, and get enough maths and english to convince airlines you can speak, spell and count. Then join the queues for sponsorship or start robbing banks for training fees.

By the time you are old enough for university the situation will have changed anyway...

Good luck

[john_tullamarine]

A marketable degree (medical, engineering, business disciplines, etc) may have a minor impact on your competitive edge in pilot recruitment ... but does have a big impact if you lose your licence on a medical, lose your job for whatever reason ... and would like to put food on the table ....

[keithl]

I'm with the boy John.

Actually, John, don't you think JC's spelling and grammar are of a rather high standard for someone starting school in the...I assume he means autumn?

[Flypuppy]

Time in university will give you a very good grounding in life, both academically and personally. If the opportunity exists then look at joining the University Air Squadron. It isn't everyone's cup of tea, but if you like it and they like you then you could potentially rack up to 90 hours of flying at the Queen's expense.

As John Tullamarine says flying is not the most secure areas of employment so having something to fall back on should you fail a medical/sim trip/tea and biscuits with the CP is always handy.

[fhchiang]

i think

having A Aeronautical Engineering Degree Definately Will Hold An Edge............


as a pilot... u'll also learn some basic aeronautics principles....


and having this degree.... i think you'll understand more about how the plane works... the aerodynamics...

blablabla...

juse my 2cents

[Penworth]

I don't think having an engineering degree will give you any advantage when doing the ATPL exams. I've got a masters degree in aeronautical engineering, and have sat the 14 ATPL exams, and I have to say only a tiny amount of what I learnt at uni I was able to apply to the exams.

If you do decide to go to uni, I would say do a subject you enjoy, as well something that is marketable as john_tullamarine says. Remember there's a lot more to uni than just learning. It's very useful for developing your character and gives you the chance to get involved with lots of useful activities such as the UAS.

I very much doubt that having an engineering degree will be looked on more favourably by recruiters than any other (much as I'd like it to be ;)). I also don't think having gone to uni will have a direct bearing on whether you're called for interview.

Good luck with your decision.:ok:

PW

[Notso Fantastic]

I don't think there's much relevance of any degree courses to piloting. On your flying licence course, you cover all the necessary learning. Nice to have in reserve, but as for a degree course improving your flying or job chances....I don't think so! (37 years flying and still no degree!)

[waspie]

Jonny, being only just 17 (4 days ago) and only in the year above you then my advice may not be the best around! However, I have spoken to many experienced pilots, and from what I know the best thing you can do is to gain as much information on flying as you possibly can. If possible try and get a PPL as this will show the airlines you are determined.

I am studying English Lang, Business Studies, IT and Popular music (the slack version of music). I am continuing all 4 onto the A-level year. The pilots that I know say as long as you have 3 C's of which none of them are "slacker" subjects (like the Pop music I do) then you should be alright. But dont forget, academics are not everything and intelligence is different to academics. I flew solo when I was 16 and should have my PPL soon. Ever since I was 13 I was reading books on flying. Someone else mentioned the Trevor Thom books, these are very good but to be honest I would only advise to read Trevor Thom 1 and possibly 2 if you arent going to train for a PPL. Trevor Thom 1 and 2 will give you a beginners understanding of flying and help you to understand the basics of flying. And dont just read them once, read them until you know every word off by heart in the books, and you know what every single page has on it. If you cannot keep reading these books over and over again then maybe aviation isn't the career for you. I find that every time I
re-read a book I learn several new things. All of these things may help in the future. I basically now have a library of books on aircraft that I have read, ranging from ATC procedures/Boeing 757 Manuals/ Instrument navigation to VOR-ILS-NDB procedures... I simply can't get enough of aviation. I am not an academic (predicted 4 C's at A-level), but I am hoping my determination will get me a career. Dont forget there are many organisations out there that will help you, for example: www.pilotcareercentre.com is excellent.
Hope this is of some help,
Mark Wilson

[MLS-12D]

don't waste your time on university if you want to become a pilot! Time spent at university is seldom a waste ... but to answer the question asked, the skills acquired in university study (any degree programme) are of little or no relevance when one learns to fly.

As a formal qualification, a degree itself is of no real benefit if one wishes a job as a professional pilot (certainly, any limited advantage it might bestow is more than outweighed by the financial and time cost, that might have been used to acquire additional flying experience or advanced ratings).

On the other hand, there are a lot of very qualified but unemployed or underemployed pilots out there ... from a career perspective, one might be better off learning some other profession or trade, fly as a hobby, and make the switch to professional flying when/if the opportunity presents itself.

[Re-Heat]

I posted a reply with my opinion at http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=132177&perpage=15&pagenumber=2.

Consider all of the facts that:

Far more people have a degree now than those who currently fly, so consider that requirements in the future may change.

Those who have not been to university are not always able to advise on its merits and dismerits; only on the merits and dismerits of not having gone.

How you might fund training, and with what earnings?

Are you interested in going to university, and do you think it will help you develop as a person?

Consider degrees with aviation inserted eg Cranfield etc (I do not mean aero eng though, which you should only really consider if that as a career interests you, as it is not easy)

[Echo T]

I have a Uni degree and is NOT A WASTE OF TIME!

I went to Uni as a back up plan just incase I mess up or no jobs in future. It is well worth going to uni. There are many degrees aviation related that u could do.

But I agree with FlyPuppy its a good grounding in life. You learn so much that will help you in future, working in teams, presentation skills, independency, meeting weird and wonderful people, it prepares you for the real world, you learn organisation skills, theres just so many advantages.....its good for interviews as well, it shows that you are willing to learn. If you do decide to go to uni it would be an advantage to do languages as airlines do like that!

You don't know whats going to happen in the future so its best to have a back up plan!

good luck with whatever you do!

E.T

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

Aero Eng has the edge you say fhchiang?

Nah, can't be, I did Aero, and I am still has thick as two short planks!;)

[jets62]

Just wondering, since you used the word "fall" instead of Autumn, I can't but help wondering if you have an American background! If you do and you want a job here, then a degree in anything will definately help your interview process in the USA since you can't get a job with the majors without it. However, some schools over here offer degrees such as Aviation Science, a degree in my humble opinion, as useful as a chocolate teacup. Most of their subjects are covered in the JAR ATP exams anyway, but they charge huge somes of money for a 4 year degree and an ATP license. In my mind, not worth it. If on the other hand you are in the Uk, as far as I'm aware, a degree is not required and therefore not worth the effort.

Sorry, just one more thing, getting a degree is not a bad idea, but get a degree in something you will enjoy, not to just to tick a box or a hoop to jump through to be a pilot. You never know, it may come in handy oneday.

[Pilot16]

Ive been through the stage where I done a lot of researching on pprune by posting and reading.

Im 18 years aold finishing A-Levels and I can tell you that I have decided to get a degree. However, my plan is to take a gap year and do the ATPL theory. Im at an advantage since i already hold a PPL.

My degree choice is Electronic Engineering at a University of London, while I do the degree, I'l finish off all the flying requirements (CPL, IR) as I do the degree.

As I finish the degree, Il hopefully be the proud owner of an fATPL and a BEng degree, hopefully.

[Jimmenycricket]

Thanks alot for all of the help. The degree that I have chosen is Physics and Astronomy. I'm not really sure how that may help me to fly, but who knows? I agree with all of the people out there who say that university will help me to become a more rounded person. As for going in the 'fall', well, I'm from Canada. What did you expect? Unfortunatley, there are very few universities here that will offer a course that also allows you to fly. Western Ontario does, but it will cost $15,000 a year in tuition alone for four years, and then there is residence, food, etc. Also, the flight aspect only comes into play after the normal course load, (ie all day at school, then three hours of flight training after. No time for a job, or any type of life at all, though I don't expect that I'll have any time at all to have a life with all of my studying. And the worst part is that for the first year you pay that little $10,000 for flight training, but do not actually take any training until second year. I figured that with a degree I could find some type of employment, pay off my loans and save enough for the licence. Any advice?

[Echo T]

good on you pilot 16

thats a good idea what you are doing!

hope it goes well!

E.T

[Pilot16]

Thank very much Echo T :)

[cyyz]

Get a marketing degree....

Back up plan if you do lose your medical.

Plus you'll be able to provide excellent CVs and interviews.

[esreverlluf]

Just a thought - it is just about as difficult to get a good Aero Eng job as it isto get an airline gig - so maybe another (almost any other) degree might be the go.

Also helps to develop interests outside flying unless you want to be one of those people that live, sleep and breathe flying. Personally, I like to get away from aeroplanes and aeroplane geeks when I'm not at work in my shiny brown Boeing cockpit.

[Jimmenycricket]

Well, I like to Scuba dive, but that kind of gets in the way when you fly. How much spare time do you guys get between flights? The medical effects of diving then flying restrict me to diving then waiting a period of 24 hours before making any kind of ascent.

[pinkpilot]

Get a degree, preferably something with a connection to the aviation industry, I have one in Mech Eng, and it definately helped me loads during the ATPL exams I cant understand why pentworth reckons that his Masters in Aeronautics wasnt helpful!!!

If I hadnt studied the likes of turbines, bernoullis equation, coefficient of lift etc prior to the starting the ATPLs, I would hate to think how much more difficult it would have been.

In these competitive times you have to have a USP, unique selling point, so that when Mr Chief Pilot decides to pick up a thousand CVs you have to have an edge on the 999 other applicants, also if I was in the position of hiring and had to choose one of two guys I would go for one with a degree rather than one who when straight into flying from school!!

If I had to do it again I would do aeronautical instead of mechanical but still I would certainly recommend it!!

[scroggs]

Engineering degrees are no more use than history degrees in the process of flying and operating a modern aircraft. Do not, under any circumstances, take an aeronautical engineering degree if your only motivation is to increase your employability as a pilot. You will probably fail the degree, and thus have wasted your time at university, or, should you manage to pass, you will have learned little of any relevence to piloting an airliner. You will also find that your degree carries no more weight with employers than the Geography graduate's - and he will have had much more time to enjoy himself while at uni!

As we keep telling you guys, you must examine your motives for getting a degree. If your abiding interest is aeronautical engineering, and your maths is of a high standard, go for it and enjoy it. If your passion is 'media studies with underwater basket weaving', do that instead. Do try to take a subject which may have some relevence in the wider world of work should flying not work out, but not to the extent of studying a subject you have no interest in.

Alternatively, consider training for a trade which will pay you while you do your pilot training.

Scroggs

[Snigs]

Have to agree with Scroggs on this one. Especially re. learning a trade.

There is too much snobbery surrounding a degree nowadays, and what does it give you? Debt and bugger all else :( . Especially now the government are degrading its perceived value by making up an arbitrary target for quantity of bods going to Uni.

[Ropey Pilot]

I'm also in the 'University is great but don't try and use it for your ATPL exams' school of thought.

Sorry pinkpilot, I have to agree with penworth. I have an MEng from a decent uni (ie one that wasn't a poly 10 years ago) and it didn't help me with my ATPL's one bit.

That is not to say it hindered me in any shape or form (14 first time passes :D ) but it was largely irrelevant.

There was nothing in the groundschool that was more difficult than my O Level (Not GCSE!) maths or physics - never mind A Level and certainly not my degree!

I am sure that an aeronautical degree course would mean that you understood PoF (for example) in detail prior to ATPL's, but is a 3/4 year degree really necessary for something you can do in your spare time over a month or two? (It certainly wont help ypu with HP&L, Met etc...)

Having said that, I would personally go to uni again in a second - for all the reasons discussed above (not going to repeat them all) but if nothing else I would imagine an 18 yr old airline sponsored student who has gone straight from school won't be as interesting to talk to in the cockpit as the 23 year old who has been to india backpacking etc...

And as to the employability of graduates v non-grads - I'll let you know if I ever get a flying job!:\

[redsnail]

If you are hell bent on getting a degree and you want one that is useful to the aviation world then have a look at Kingston's Foundation Degree in Aircraft Engineering (http://www.kingston.ac.uk/~kuweb/undergraduate/courses/h410.htm)

This degree will get you JAA recognised aircraft engineering qualifications and you'll do work experience at KLM's engineering facility at Norwich. In other words, you'll really know how an aeroplane works and it will definitely help you with the systems component of the JAR ATPL.

Also, if all else fails and you lose your medical/can't get flying work then you'll have industry recognised qualifications that will or should get you a job fixing them.

[Snigs]

Exactly Reddo, it's an apprenticeship to a trade, and a degree, best of both worlds imho.

[MystiCKal]

I've heard many sides to this question. But basically, in order to be as competitive as one could be, a university degree will be preferable. I know that american airlines are flexible with uni degrees and that most european airlines don't even list it as a requirement. So is getting a degree a waste of time when one just wants to fly for an airline?

Is this true what other people say or am I just not getting the hang of it all?

[Capt Claret]

MystiCKal

A degree doesn't make you a better pilot, it is however used more and more as a filter when the recruiters look at applications.

What a degree does give you, is another string to your bow. When Great Airlines Inc goes bust you'll find that an ATPL and thousands of hours command on the latest and greatest flying machine, are often not considered usefull qualifications when it comes to securing alternate employment. :{

[Notso Fantastic]

By taking yourself out for 3 years to do a degree, you may miss your chance for early flight training and employment. By doing the degree, you will have a millstone around your neck of 3 years out of the airline system and the loss of seniority as a result. If you avoid the degree and then don't make a go of it in aviation, then it's probably too late- youa re so deep in debt that a degree is out of the question. It's a real 'Sophie's Choice'!
As far as having a degree affects your employability as a pilot......the 3 year effort to get one in no way improves your job prospects much.....some would say if at all.
I know people in my airline who did a degree before flying. All their careers they have laboured under people who didn't, and ended up far ahead of them on the seniority stakes.. It can affect your time to command, constantly affect yor bidding position on the seniority list for changing fleets and doing trips (for bid systems). On balance I would say never delay entering aviation for a degree unless times are really bad.

[scroggs]

This question should be in Wannabes. However, if you'd looked there in the first place (via the 'search' facility) you would have found that this question has been asked and answered many, many times.

Without going into too much detail (do that search!), in the UK a degree is not necessary and may disadvantage you in terms of time, as Notso suggests. In other European countries, a degree may be required by flag carriers, but in general it is not. In the US, a four-year degree is more or less mandatory if you are not a graduate of the military.

Scroggs

[watchthewarrior]

Mate,

I was in the same boat as you until i decided to opt out of uni.
I wanted the career far too much and wanted to get straight on with the training.

I never really had the desire to go to uni and so would have only gone to maybe slightly 'put me above the rest'.

I thought about it long and hard and decided that if i wanted to get straight on with the training then i should, and not waste my time doing a 3 year course that i didnt really want to be on.
Afterall, im going to be paying back the 60K+ from an integrated course till im 80, never mind an extra 15K of uni fees on top.

Basically, its up to you, uni has its +ve's and -ve's.
If you want it that much then go for it and get on with your training, if uni's still in the back of your head and you feel you should be going then mabe you should.

Hope ive helped to confuse the situation further for you!

Best of luck in what ever you decide.

wtw

[DVR6K]

Mate, tip from me!

Graduated a year ago, now 23, just about to start my ATPL training.

Went to uni, had the best 4 years of my life (spent a year abroad living in Madrid) and have never regretted it (apart from maybe the beer belly).

Uni makes you a much more rounded individual. I am much more of an appealing person on my CV now having done my degree and associated activities at uni than I was when I left college with 3 A-levels and a load of caps under my belt for the school football team.

However, depends on how old you are. If you're just finishing A-levels, I would recommend highly doing a degree, if for the experience than anything else. If you are thinking of getting a degree as a mature student maybe think twice if you think age might be a negative factor in job-hunting when you graduate.

6K

[v12merlin]

Well said pudknocker, I totally agree. In my opinion if you want to be a pilot then go get the required qualification i.e. an ATPL.

Yes a degree will look good on the cv but so do alot of other things. Take for instance being a milk man. This tells the employer that you can get out of bed early, you can handle machinery and do the same routes day after day, perfect!

Seriously I think all qualification and experience are taken on board in the recruitment process and a degree does have merit. But if I had to choose between one guy green from uni or another without a degree who had spent the last three years instructing instead I know who I'd go for.

Personally I'd get on with being a pilot and skip the degree. Unless Daddy's paying, if so can I come too; I quite fancy three years of getting up late, drinking subsidised beer and taking long trips to sunny destinations. All this in pursuit of becoming a rounded person, sounds great!:D

[Penworth]

This is a topic that always seems to cause quite a lot of controversy and seems clearly divided between those who went to uni and those who dont. Having said that, I did a 5 year degree (in Scotland) but don't feel it necessarily was a good move. Sure, you get to have a great time, do lots of fun activities, and end up with a qualification which you can be proud of, but if I had my time again I would maybe have done a 3 year degree, or a 2 year college course. Although it has delayed my training, meaning that I'm only getting into it now at 25, as a result of my degree I was able to get a decent paid job and can almost afford to do my training without getting into any debt. On top of this I now have 3 years experience as an engineer so God forbid I lost my medical or something I could at least get back into a decent job.

My personal opinion is that if there's something you really would like to do at uni, maybe go for a 3 year course, that way you're still young when you graduate and have time to get qualified still in your early twenties. Failing that learn a trade or something while saving towards your training. The one thing I definitely wouldn't do would be to leave school and go straight into full time training. You'd have no life experience (gained through working or uni/working), no backup plan, and (presumably) a huge amount of debt.

Just my thoughts

PW

[bigfella5]

A complete and utter waste of time in so far as a being a pilot is concerned. It was nothing more than a dash for cash for universities in this country and is quickly drawing to a close. Get your CPL and go for it.

[tom24]

If you're doing it because you think its going to put you at an advantage when applying to the airlines, then forget it.

I didn't go to Uni. In fact I never even did A levels. These days I work in the City. I earn more than I ever imagined, own a property and am shortly giving it all up to train for ATPL/CPL safe in the knowledge that I have 9 years experience in another industry to fall back on at the age of 25, should it go tits up.

The moral? There are alternatives to degrees.

[Old Smokey]

It is true that having a university degree is sometimes used in the 'culling' process when there have been far more applicants than jobs. But then, so too is whether the applicant went to the trouble to include a photograph of him/herself on the application form. If the airlines in your part of the world happen to require a degree, then so be it, you have little choice.

In my own case, I started flying in my teens with only a high school education background, getting the jump on most others in the process. By the time I was DVR6K's age, I was a pilot of 6 years, an airline pilot of 3 years, a father, and spare time studying Aeronautical Engineering, Science, Computer programming and Psychology. The Aeronautical Engineering, Science, and Computer Programming were dead easy because I was then able to appreciate their practical applications. These, I have used VERY productively, but only after I had become a 'well rounded' pilot. The Psychology was of value later when in training and management roles, especially in realising that any 23 year old doesn't have the faintest idea of what 'well rounded' is, or capable of reasonable self-assessment.

Once in a while I get a new entry pilot to the airline with a string of previous university degrees, and look forward to some lively conversation with him/her. The inevitable response is Huh?

I would rather fly with a professional pilot than a professional student any day.

I guess that doesn't make me very well rounded DVR6K.

[flaps to 60]

DVR

A well rounded individual is someone who realises that their not well rounded until you stop learning which is usually about 4.5secs before you pop your clogs.

Your comments are that of someone who really hasn't lived and uni is not a great "whole" educator when you consider that some who leave it cant even fill their car with petrol.

Im not having a go but from some of the comments made in reply to yours show that you have a lot to learn.

Some of the lads who went to my flying college with degrees strugled just as much as those without degrees or even "o" levels.

In my mind a dgree shows that you have "some" knowledge in a particular field ie a base from which to really learn.

If you can spend more time working in the real world and learn to deal with people of all sorts of back grounds and abilities, you will probably find this far more useful than the majority of your atpl studies when you make i to the RHS.

Uni makes you a much more rounded individual. I am much more of an appealing person on my CV now having done my degree and associated activities at uni than I was when I left college with 3 A-levels and a load of caps under my belt for the school football team.

Its the last bit that worries me.....Flying is all about TEAM WORK from the Captain to the despatchers to the Cabin crew and everyone else involved. A skill learned on those muddy fields in cr@p WX.

Dont be offended by the comments on this thread but learn from them,

Good Luck with the ATPLs and just keep remembering that it will all be worth it.

[jollypilot]

Do a degree if you want to, but not to further your career as a pilot. The only way to do that is to get your CPL/IR etc.

I'm 20 and after a (very early) medical discharge from the RAF I went after my CPL/IR, getting into a lot of debt in the process (but its worth it!)

94% average in theoreticals, and first time passes in CPL and IR later, I have just got my first job flying 737s.

Moral to the story - my friends are all entering their second or third year at university, and I'm going into the RHS of a 737.
Enough said!
Can easily say I don't regret for one second not going to uni.

Your choice though!!

JP

[Romeo Tango Alpha]

University is just such a useful tool to a professional pilot. Let's see, using my own education / life as an experience.

I started flying the DAY I turned 16. First lesson was on my birthday. I had my Restricted Private Pilot's License before I was 17, and before I was able to even drive a car...

I finished High School when I was 17. Didn't even THINK about Uni, as flying was "it".

By the time I was 18, I had a full Australian Commercial Pilot's License. Times turned rough, in terms of finances.

So, THINKING that a University education is something good to fall back on, in times of dire straights in aviation, I went to University... I started studying Business Law, branching into Information Technology.

3 years WASTED! University is full of STRANGE people, alcohol, STRANGE people, drugs, STRANGE PEOPLE, sex (OK, that was FINE!) and a LOT of money - it was costing MORE to go to university than to finish my ATPL and CIR! STUFF THIS, said I, and re-entered the REAL world, where you cannot bludge off the Government whilst being further educated.

So, back to slinging burgers and fries, and scrimping and saving every possible penny. Finally did my ATPL (got 97% overall, first time around THANK YOU VERY MUCH!), and my CIR.

I did my tax return this year. I did it over the internet with "eTax programme". My refund was looking BEAUTIFUL - over $2500 - before I got to the HECS area (Higher Education Contribution scheme), and Student Supplement Loan repayments, conveniently on the LAST "page" of eTax....

After I entered my HECS contribution and SSL repayment, I am entitled to a tax refund of $257.

So, besides costing me an arm, and a leg, what has a University degree done for me? NOTHING! Does it mean ANYTHING to Australian aviation employers? NO! Should it? NO!

Am I more rounded? Well, physically, yes (Jason Hassard, eat ya heart out!), but all I learnt at University was that the entire world is supposedly Socialist, and that the world owes ME a living (me being a capitalist / anti-socialist in University is running against the grain. Hang on, being FREE THINKING in University is unheard of...)

University is a hole into which you throw a LOT of money, for little to no benfit in Aviation - unless you do Aerodynamics!

[Capt. J]

If you really want something to fall back on just incase. Take the option where you get a degree AFTER you've entered the airlines ;) or after you get all your licenses which is the important part.

Remember, we fly! :cool: Worry about the academic bit after you've settled down with a nice job or while you're in GA.

Atleast that's what I'm going to do :rolleyes:

[MystiCKal]

I'm thinking of taking a degree or two (probably aeronautical engineering) at ERAU after finishing a pilot education which is bridged between Phoenix East Aviation and Luftfartsskolen in norway. So 2.5 years of pilot program and then off to uni if and only IF the job market doesn't open up :P

[Pole Hill]

jollypilot,
Please check your PM's.
POL.

[no sponsor]

I too spent five long years at Uni, and I got a lucky break when I left, got a good job, and earn a decent wage to fund the flying. yes, I had a good time, signed up to the military when there, and met some good mates, but I didn't need a university to give me those things. I tell everyone today that it is a waste of time, especially if you go there thinking it is some ticket to a better future. Everyone and their mother goes to Uni today, and so there just aren't the jobs that pay those sought after salaries that most graduates think they are owed. In my company today, we have countless graduates doing admin and secretarial work, all conned into thinking that the three/four years at Uni was some sort of ticket to executive riches. Some of these guys/gals are in their late 20's, some in their early 30's. Speaking with them they are all very worried that their lives are slipping away, that they won't get the breaks they need. I find it very depressing.

If you are going to do studying for x-number of years to fund that licence, become a plumber, electrician, carpenter. You'll never be out of work, you'll always have skills people need, and you will absolutely always have something to fall back on.

[flaps to 60]

Isn't it about time the ATPL (once little green book is in hand) should be regarded as a degree.

The diversity and quantity even though much of it has little to do with the real world of flying is certainly up there with degree levels.

HHHHMMMM i wonder what it should be called....a Bsc in Practical Aeronautical Studies or such like....?

[no sponsor]

There was a debate here not long ago regarding ATPL and Degree. Personally speaking, I don't think they are comparable in the sense that degrees are supposed to be about understanding concepts, identifying weaknesses and coming up with new ways of looking at things. At least that what degrees were supposed to be about.

ATPLs, although difficult, and I wouldn't want to tackle them ever again, not least that exam week for module 1 at BGS, require learning facts and figures, and understanding them. They don't require the other element that should be found in a degree: the new way of looking at the problems/issues.

However, not being involved in degrees these days, and being guilty of perceiving that degrees are dumbed-downed versions, closer to the difficulty of A-Levels in the 1960's, then I would say ATPLs should at least register on a degree-type scale.

But, having said what I said in an earlier post, I couldn't care less if it was or wasn't.

(Running for cover from those with their newly polished degree certificates):uhoh:

[HandspringGuy]

I'm with Flypuppy all the way.

I did a BSc at uni and although I haven't used it directly, I could use my knowledge to better understand what the groundschool instructors meant in a much broader sense.
Also (as is often said) if you are in the airline industry you spend a long time in a small space with another person. University makes you a less boring git...not that i am suggesting you are:O

I would say, go for it. Life is short so take it all in before you are grey and too stiff to do the things you regret not doing.

HG

[Taiguin]

Hey guys,

I echo what some people have said in that a degree is usefull. I think i degree has the following plus points:

1. Shows your ability to revise/pass exams
2. Is something to fall back on if the **** hits the fan
3. You develop inter-personnal skills, team working, and good social skills.
4. Some degrees do have a relevance to flying, for example mine is Aeronautical and i think for the ATPL syllabus particularly things like Flight Performance, having a good understanding of aircarft performance from a degree such as this helps a lot.
5. Can make you a more attractive candidate at the initial stage of selection.

That doesn't mean i don't believe you can get these skills elsewhere, i.e. working in ops for a couple of years etc etc. Or that this makes you any better a pilot in the long run.

But I personally think that having a degree is something else that may make your application stand out compared to some others thats all. They're looking for reasons to bin applications so the more you have to offer the better. Suppose its like flight experience really, do they or don't they like it?!?!?

I have to say there is something to say about work experience too though. There aint no better place to build communication than in a working environent, so work experience is also vital.

By the way i am at uni, but i did mine for my own reasons, not cos i thought it would get me on a CTC like scheme!! I wanted to enjoy my life, and they have been the best years of my life. Yeah i am in debt, but it was definately worth it.

[Hufty]

I am with Flypuppy et al. too - it doesn't matter what degree you do, it is the life skills that you learn which are of most value to you as a pilot.

I have a degree - 2 in fact - neither are of any relevance to aviation, but people at interviews have been interested in what I have done in the past and have liked the fact that there has been progression in my (non aviation) career.

[Tanveer]

Hi another one of the many degree related posts on here.

Questions are very simple don't be afraid to answer :E :

I do knoe that i want a degree. The question is how to get it when to get it and in what to get it.

#1) Should i do online degree or go to a proper university.

#2) Should i major in something aviation or something other than
aviation.

[Genghis the Engineer]

All rather depends upon what you want to do with your degree.

G

[High Wing Drifter]

I would say that generally, in real world a maths, engineering or science based degree (particuarly fiziks) are looked upon favourably in any profession. I imagine, that such a degree would accentuate your accademic accumen more than an aviation management related degree. I would guess that even an airline would take this view. If you are thinking of a management degree, consider carefully. The only management degree that carries an real oomph! is the MBA (Master Business Administration) and that is a post-grad qualfication. This qualification is very highly regarded by any organisation, as they know that you know how to help make them more money.

[R T Jones]

I'm in a similar situation, I know I want to go to uni and get a degree, its something i just have to do. The ones I am considering are Maths, Physics or some kind of Engineering degree! I want something away from avaition. I also wonder which Uni will a.) I like and b.) Will accept me . Take a degree in something you enjoy and are good at. Employers look at the mark you got as well remember

[Jason2000]

Hi,

As Genghis the Engineer says, depends what you want to do with your degree --- as HWD says, Maths/Engineering/Physics will get you most places, but are also among the tougher degrees on offer.

As an example though, I work in the Marketing group of a large aviation company and would say that around 80-90% of employees in the team have physics/engineering backgrounds.

Jut thought though - how old are you? If you already have some experience, there are aviation-related Master's courses out there in which you can enrol on without gaining a previous degree - e.g. the MSc Air Transport Management at Cranfield Uni (1-yr full time). You'd enjoy that a lot, but then is very highly aviation specifc for obvious reasons...

Good luck!

Jason

[Tanveer]

Thanks for the replies maties. I am 19 rite now. The reason for the degree would be 2. One so that i have a degree and airlines see that on my resume, and second so that i have something to back me up or an extra support.

These are the options i am open to"

Aeronautical Engineering
Civil Engineering

Business Administration
Economics
Finance

Aviation Management
Proffesional Aviation
Aeronautical Science

The reason i am considering an online degree is cause i'll end up saving alot of money and time.

Later
tj

[Genghis the Engineer]

I don't know the Canadian situation, nor yours particularly - but regarding the subjects; aeronautical engineering is a tough and time consuming degree. It is however extremely rewarding, and opens up very many aeronautical professions - in fact there are probably none which would be precluded by this degree.

Civil engineering is going to be a good engineering degree, the entry requirements are usually rather lower than for aeronautics - but the only engineering job you'll be doing in the industry is probably designing airports. If that's your thing, fair enough - but it's one step removed from aeroplanes. A good halfway house, which you've not mentioned, would be mechanical engineering which is in many ways the same as aero-eng, with lower entry requirements but (most likely) none of the aviation specific stuff.

Business degrees at undergraduate level are aimed at future accountants. If you are registered on PPrune, you are probably far too interesting an individual to do that - they are also at many institutions only a couple of steps away from a degree in ladies basket weaving.

Aviation management degrees are generally aimed at future (or current) airline pilots who want to head into management in the airlines. In that context, they're great - but you still need to learn to be an airline pilot separately before it'll ever be useful.

"Professional Aviation"- I know what it is in the real world - but as a degree subject? Sounds like ladies basket weaving to me.

"Aeronautical Science" - this will be a technical degree which doesn't include the minimum core subjects to be "Aeronautical Engineering". Since some of these subjects are very tough (structural analysis was my particular hate, closely followed by thermodynamics) this makes the degree much more accessible. Unfortunately it also makes you a great deal less employable - most aerospace technical jobs actually do need those horrible core subjects, so if you can make the grades I'd strongly recommend going for an Engineering course (aeronautical, aerospace systems, or mechanical) rather than a "science" course. If science is really your thing, do a hard science like physics - it'll be much more useful to you in the long run.

You can probably guess that I did aeronautical (aerospace) engineering, and have no regrets - but I hope this is helpful despite my strong personal bias.

G

[R T Jones]

Genghis the Engineer, could i also ask your opnion on a maths degree?

[Tanveer]

Hey thanks for tht explaination man really shines light on these degree's. I was wondering which one of the above listed degree's would be the best Fall Back option ? Considering the whole flying thingi goes down hill.

Thanks
tj

[Genghis the Engineer]

RTJ You can ask :O

Seriously, maths is about symbolic reasoning and problem solving - it opens a great many doors. You could potentially move from that into engineering via an MSc, or into many other fields - although you are probably looking at some degree of additional education or training for virtually any other career after a maths degree. But, with the training a maths degree gives you, you can probably fast-track through that training better than most.

I must admit that, starting where I am now if I wanted to do another degree for fun, I'd do either maths or Physics - probably the latter 'cos I'm personally fascinated by quantum physics and relativity, and would love to understand them properly (if that's possible?)


TanveerAgain, this is purely my personal opinion, but the concept of a degree as a backup always troubles me. The majority of degrees do not qualify you to do anything but carry on learning. But, something like a pure science or engineering + (even failed!) pilot training will equip you well to move into one of the technical professions that make aviation happen - whether it's aircraft design, aerodynamics research or aviation psychology. If you want a pure backup, personally I'd suggest getting a vocational qualification - something like accountancy, physiotherapy, sports coaching - whatever you'd enjoy and be good at.

G

[scroggs]

I'm pretty much with Genghis - at least his last post!

Pilots do not need degrees. At least, in the UK they don't. If you do a degree (whatever the subject), please make sure that you do it because you want to. That is, because the subject enthuses you and you get a kick out of learning more about it. Don't do any degree because you think you should do it; your likelihood of achieving a good (or any) pass is remote if you subsequently find the subject boring, or too much like hard work.

Degrees as a back up qualification is a thorny subject. In general, a degree can only be utilised as a back up if it has an immediate, practical, commercial (or professional) application. Most don't. As Genghis says, most degrees simply qualify you to go on learning. Also, 'back-up' degrees have a finite shelf life. If you wish to use your degree to get you into another field having failed to enter aviation, you will need to have maintained current knowledge pertinent to both your degree and your second choice of profession - and that's not easy if you're a couple of years or more down the line from graduation, particularly in science and engineering subjects!

Of course, other parts of the world have different requirements, but, in UK, wannabe pilots should do a degree because they want to, and for no other reason. The USA, as a contrary example, generally requires its commercial pilots to hold a four-year college degree, so the considerations in that context are quite different!

Scroggs

[R T Jones]

I find maths increadly intresting, I really enjoy problem solving. My only wim is I dont want to get onto a degree course and not be able to do it! An Engineering degree, what kinds of things are in that? At the moment Im doing the mechincs module in Maths and I'm really enjoying that and it comes naturally. Anyway hope you guys can offer me some advice. :)

[Genghis the Engineer]

Please trust me on this - you will not on an Engineering degree course find yourself complaining about not enough maths, it is the language in which Engineering is done and although the flavour will be different, you'll do at-least as much as you would on a maths degree.

On the other hand I can also guarantee that you will struggle on any engineering degree course - it's part of the territory and just something to be worked through.

As to a typical course content, the following is gratuitously copied from the online syllabus of one of the better universities offering aerospace Engineering.

Year 1 (all core units)
Aircraft Operations; Computing and Modelling; Design; Electrical Systems; Fluid Mechanics; Properties of Materials; Mathematics for Engineering Sciences; Mechanics; Mechanics of Solids; Mechanics of Flight;Thermodynamics; Aerospace Studies.

Year 2 (all core units)
Aerodynamics; Aerothermodynamics; Aircraft Structures; Aircraft Systems Design; Astronautics; Computing; Dynamics and Control; Materials; Mathematics for Engineering; Mechanics of Flight; Propulsion.

Year 3 (typical core units)
Aerospace Design; Structural Design; Applied Aerodynamics; Management; Individual Project;
Plus 8 units selected from Options List as below.

Year 4 (typical core units)
Group Design project; Plus 8 units selected from Options List below.

Options available:
Listing is for guidance only.
Most subjects count as 2 units, some choices are governed by a specialist theme.
Applied Aerodynamics; Astronautics, Aircraft Propulsion; Aircraft Structures, Aircraft Dynamics; Advanced Materials, Aerospace CFD; Avionics; Automobile Engineering; Biological Flows; Complex Variables; Compressible Flow; Electro-Mechanics Power Systems; Finite Element Analysis; Flow Control; French; German; Hypersonics & High Temperature Gas Dynamics; Human Factors in Engineering; Law for Engineers; Materials in Design Manufacture and Service; Numerical Methods; Operational Research; Optimisation; Partial Differential Equations; Powered Lift; Spacecraft Structural Design; Turbulence Physics and Experiment; Turbulence Simulation and Modelling.


G

[R T Jones]

Ahh well sounds quite fun then! I think im enjoying the mechincs as its dealing with real things, x and y mean more than just x and y. if you get what i mean :) I've always been fasinated with the way things work, if you got some time one day could you drop me a pm? Thanks for your advice. :)

[benyfly]

hello all,
hey, RTJ i just finished an aeronautical engineering degree and believe me there is no shortage of maths. Nearly all subjects covered apart from a few business ones have some elements of maths (as the previous post points out.) I also wanted to do a degree as a back up incase the pilots thing did'nt work out( or i lose my class 1 medical in 2 years or the industry wont supply jobs. It also helped me when it came to borrowing the money as im self funded, :( knowing that i could get into a job that has a decent wage.
But don't do the degree if it does'nt interest you, the 3-4 years are a hard enough slog without having pull yourself into classes that just make ya want to sleep (eg the business ones on aero...lol....).
I enjoyed the aero degree and it does give you a good insight into the world of aircraft, how they function and why.

any further Q's about the aero degree just pm me and ill try to answer from my experiences

all the best

beny

[go_solo]

Here are a couple of posts I made on a previous question and some of it appears to be relevant! Cant give much input on the Maths/Engineering though, sorry!

Scroggs advice is spot on though...dont do anything for the wrong reasons, you probably wont stick at it or do yourself justice!

Cheers

Go_Solo

----------------------------------------------------------------

One thing I would suggest before you decide what subject to study at uni is get your Class One Medical. If you spend 3 or 4 years getting a degree in Airline Management or similar subject and then fail the medical, you could end up watching others do your dream job every day and that’s only if you get a job in the industry.

I currently work in Human Resources and do a considerable amount of recruitment for management roles. One thing we consider is a person’s motivation for a job, and believe it or not, aviation management has very little to do with flying and aircraft so you may find they take a dim view of someone whose main motivation is “I want to be a pilot”. Many airlines will rightly think, why should I spend time and cash training this person when he or she is likely to jack it in once they have a bit of cash for their ATPL.

Don’t get me wrong, Airline Management graduates will have covered most aspects of a general management degree and are just as capable as a person with a degree in pure management, but in today’s tough graduate market, you want to be a marketable as possible.

Also, before I get any abuse, pilots can and do make excellent managers but this is generally once they’ve got the experience together with a good academic base. At this stage they are able to provide both experience and knowledge to situations which the poor desk bound staffers don’t have.


Cheers

Go_Solo

---------------------------------------------------------------------


It’s good to know you have a qualification behind you and it certainly wont hurt any application you make for a flying job. Don’t worry about being 24, if you look around pprune you’ll find loads of people who made the move much later in their lives, plus uni is great fun and if you’re lucky you can also get some flying in then. I managed to get my PPL and a few hours while at uni and I doubt I would have done it if I’d been working full time.

Management is a good subject to study because much of a modern pilots role is systems management and decision making. It will also give you a good grounding in industry, which most airlines like their pilots to have.

However, a technical subject such as physics, maths or engineering will be really helpful when you have to sit the ATPL ground school, plus they’re looked on most favourably by the military and airlines.

Ultimately, its got to be up to you but don’t choose a subject because you think it will help you to be a pilot, do something that interests you. Remember that you’ve got to study it for 3 or 4 years and it’s bad enough studying something you enjoy and have an interest in.

Go_Solo

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cheers

Go_Solo

[Genghis the Engineer]

RTJ / whoever, I hate PMs - horrible things to use. You can Email me on [email protected] if I can help out with anything, glad to do so.

G

[R T Jones]

Check ya inbox :)

[eoincarey]

Hi

Im a 6th form student and Im just taking my A levels this year. I was wondering what subjects the airlines prefer to see, especially for sponsorships. I previously thought it made little difference, that they just wanted to see that you are reasonably smart, but having just looked at ThomsonFly's sponsorship site, they have specified Maths and Physics as being essential. This is slightly worrying, as I have taken Maths but not Physics (only did it up to AS level), as I was able to get a better mark in English than I would have in Physics. Should I retake Physics (this would be quite a big deal in my school)? I would appreciate any advice.

Cheers

Eoin

PS Great site, an absolute goldmine for info!

[adwjenk]

Hi

Im in the same boat, yet ive chossen subjects that i can get good grades in.
Id rather have 4 A grades then 4 D/E grades in subjects that the airline wants!!!
Also remeber ur back up, if u dont go into the airlines A levels will be ur grounding!!!!

But i think it shouldant be such a big deal as long as you have them for GCSE

Best of Luck ADWJENK

[eoincarey]

Hey adjwenk

Cheers for the reply. Ive got a fallback option of a history degree, and my physics is still pretty sound. What course do you plan to take to get in to the industry? Best of luck with all the exams!

Eoin

[adwjenk]

Hey

I plan to go to Oxford and Complete the APP course and go thorugh to the BA selection Board. Now tht is actually wishful thinking. But set ur sights high is my theory.
Then form there apply to every airline going, and just be another wanabe in the Industry.

Best ofm luck with ur exams and ur future

ADWJENK

[Boeing737]

i would say physics is useful, i took applied maths and physics which overlap, but i wouldnt say its too necessary.From what i've researched these says, it seems that one needs an ability to learn new things as opposed to have studied the right stuff.You will come up against fundamental physics during the theory part of flying, so if you can learn new things, it shouldnt be too much of a problem.
regards
:8

[arpansingla]

Hi folks, i'm 16 at the moment and in the process of taking GCSE's. I would eventually like to become an airline pilot, and was wondering what A Levels employers at airlines like you to have, and also does a degree (any in particular) help you at all in terms of job prospects? Would appreciate any advise!

[R T Jones]

Hey there, my position is similar to yours. I’m currently doing my AS Levels and am nearing exams for those. For about 5 months now I have been looking at all the different ways people become pilots, what A levels they did and what they did their degree in (if they had one). In regard to what subjects to do, do the ones you like! For sponsorship from CTC for example they are going to look at the grades you got in the subject first. The maths and physics everyone talks about is only up to GCSE standard at grade C so is hardly rocket science! The A Levels I am doing are Maths, Physics, Geography and ICT. After thinking about it I think the choices are the best ones except instead of ICT a language! I enjoy both maths and physics which is why I took them. Beware they are both very demanding subjects! A huge jump from GCSE's. I would defiantly stress, do subjects you are good at or will enjoy doing. As far as a degree goes I am thinking that maybe they are not as important as everyone stressed but I stand to be corrected. I’m taking a gap year when I finish year 13 to travel to America and AUS/NZ, I will reassess university when I get back depending on the state of the industry.

Hope this helps and by all means feel free to pm me with any questions as I feel we are in a similar boat!

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

Guys,

I have said this a few times before, but you should really use the search function, you will find lots of useful info on your questions.

[scroggs]

Within this thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=131649) you will find links to all the information you need. Anything else you'd like to know will probably be revealed by careful use of the search function.

Scroggs

[gareth08]

Hi there,

As far as a degree goes all it shows to a prospective employer/sponser is an apptitude to learn and especially if your degree is practically orientated it shows an apptitude to apply what you learn! This would look good as when you eventually sit down and read all the ATPL exams, it's fine to be academically great at the subjects, but can you apply them to a situation when flying. This is not to say you need a degree, if you actually go out into the world and experience it in certain jobs, it can prove your ability to organize and cope in certain situations, and given that degrees are two a penny these days, worldy experience in the workplace may be in some cases more adventagious.

As far as A-levels and GCSE's go i personally did no A-levels that were based on Maths or Physics and my degree was medically orientated. I then worked as a paramedic for a year and am now on a sponsership scheme. So i wouldn't get too bogged down with what subjects would the airlines want me to have and just do what you enjoy - and you will ultimatley do better in the subjects.

From what i've heard and seen a prospective airline/sponser have a very selective outlook on the 'personality' of a person they want to work for them, and if they have the added ability to learn and apply then all the better.

[sensible2k4]

Hi, I have always wanted to be a pilot, all was going well at uni until I broke my kneecap and missed 8 weeks of uni (I had to return home to recover, surgeons orders). Because of this I failed 2 exams and the summer diet is not looking too good either. I'm in 3rd year studying Aeronautical Engineering, and can't afford to resit a year.

I have 5 Scottish Highers (all above grade C) and an Advanced Higher grade C in Technological Studies.

If I didn't pass this year would I still be able to apply to places such as OATS or CTC Wings eventhough I havent completed my degree? Or would they just refuse me point blank since I failed Uni?

thank you for your time.

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

If you check the website here (http://www.ctcaviation.com/wings/040201.html) it says you need the necessary A Levels or a degree. Therefore, don't worry about it :ok:.

I would imagine if you got through to the interview stage, they would be sympathetic to your circumstances.

Good luck.

[sensible2k4]

cheers, I wasn't sure if they would look at the unfinnished degree as a bad thing or not

thanks again!

[ikea]

i dunno about your uni, butat mine (Newcastle) we can apply for extenuating circumstances. I know a girl who has very little wrong with her, who has passed thanks to medical notes, so I think you should just resit the exam, or just try your best with the rest of thew work you have to do. Good luck with whatever u do

[Genghis the Engineer]

I've known several people who had severe health problems whilst at University (one who had stuff far worse than 8 weeks off with a knackered knee). In each case, so long as they showed willing, the universities were absolutely brilliant at helping them through - so go and talk to them. You've got a 2½ month break coming up, you may be able to use that to catch up - basically all is not lost on your degree, and if you've come this far there's no reason to give up.

The other answer is that in the UK a degree is largely irrelevant to getting a CPL/FATPL - don't worry about it.

G

[A38lephant]

I was off uni for 6 weeks with glandular fever and inflamed liver (Doc assured it was not a result of drinking) and got extenuating circumstances. So long as you can prove (ie-a Doc's note) that you were ill/incapacitated for the 8 weeks they should look kindly on it. Manaed to get extensions on all my courseworks:ok:

[Malx]

I've got a BA in Music from Leeds Uni and it was worth every second. Being at uni taught me how to work hard (something I never learnt at school) and how to motivate myself - both things I'll need when I start pilot school in the autumn.

It also taught me that although I enjoy music a great deal, I don't love it enough to make a career out of it, and my thinking has gradually shifted towards becoming a pilot. Without my degree I couldn't have conceived of, let alone been accepted on, FTE's course in Jerez, so let no man (or woman) knock the value of university!

Word of warning though - all those in this thread who advise against going to university for the sake of increasing your employability are absolutely correct. There are far too many people wasting time and money at uni, so if you're 17 and you know that you want to fly planes - go straight to pilot school. If you want some life experience, independence and you have another subject that you want to study first, go to uni. Simple!

Malx

[The African Dude]

The basic agreement is that it's not required to have a degree. But I and most others argue that there are many good opportunities to build character which could make you a better airline pilot if you avail yourself of them.

Malx, why don't you think FTE would have let you enrol without your degree?

[Malx]

Sorry Africa, came across wrong - I meant that I wouldn't have been ready to undertake a commitment as big as pilot training without having done my degree first.

Def not the other way round, as the rest of the posts on this thread show!

[sensible2k4]

Well thats the exams over and results out. got some resits. The uni is treating my exams from january as first attempts, and have been advised that i can get a BSC after this round of exams(end of 3rd year). I am thinking of taking the BSC, using the money I would have spent in my 4th year at uni to put myself through a PPL, then apply to some places to try and get my ATPL .

Any comments on this plan?
thanks for any advice.

[Bruno Silva]

Hey people!!!

Dunno what to do.... I have two options:

1. I´m 21 years old, I´ve got secondary education and a bit more than 10 000 euros, shall I take my chnaces and start doing my licenses to become a pilot?
I mean I could afford doing a PPL and a little extra with those 10 000 and then I would ask for a loan to complete my training.

2. I can go to college next month and study there for at least 4 years to get a Financial management degree and then ask for a loan to start my licenses.

What´s the best option in your opinion to become a pilot.... Risk now or go to college first and do it after???

Hope you can share your thoughts with me!!!

Thanks

[jamielatham]

Hi

You are sort of in the same boat as me, i could go to college or start my training, i am planning to go to the USA when i am 18, this is after 2 year college course!

The way i look at it is that your still young, so think about doing your 4 year degree, then you would start your training at about 25, you have the rest of your life to be a pilot!, if it was me, i would do the degree, then go for training...


Hope this Helps


Jay

[Vee One...Rotate]

Hello chaps,

There's been a few pretty good and exhaustive threads on the advantages/disadvantages for an aspiring pilot of gaining a university degree. Run a search for "degree" and put the kettle on...there's plenty out there :)

Rgds,

V1R

[silentbob]

It is a tough one.

The thing is, a newly qualified pilot will find it hard to get work, competition is tough. 10,000 Euros wont go terribly far, and when money becomes tight the training loses momentum.

To me it's a no brainer, get a financial management degree. Get a job that pays enough to do flying as a hobby, it will build your hours a little before getting commercial qualifications.

I did a degree flight training course (out of UK) and ended up with a good education that means squat when you don't have enough flight experience. I also owe about £25k to a student loan scheme and am working some crummy office job in London because (apparently) an aviation degree isn't relevant enough to get into a good graduate job.

You are young and you shouldn't feel bad about working 'til you are 30 or so in Finance, Its still going to leave you with 30 plus years to pursue a flying career. Which is still along time to spend wedged into a cockpit.

When I started out I thought it would be the coolest job in the world, but there are drawbacks too. Starting out as a hobby will allow you to get as involved as you want, and you can see whether a full-on career in the industry suits you.

I hope this helps....?

[Bruno Silva]

Thanks everyone!!!!

It seems that getting a degree first is the best option at least for me....If I had loads of money I coul easily risk it and do my licenses but since I´m on a tight budget I´d better play safe....


Please fell free to share any more thoughts about this.....

Thanks!!!!

[was55amg]

Hi all,

i'd like to know if to be an airline pilot, you need to have a University Degree? does it help? do you have more chances to get a job with a university diploma?

Also, is 25-26 too old to start learning and begin a career, If someone has the money to start learning full time ?

Thanks to anyone that would give me some lights on these questions! :ok:

[Sul]

As far as I know a University degree is not a requirement. I was told that it will only get you as far as the interview and after that it's all up to you. I don't think 25-26 is too old at all judging from what I'm heard and read.

[chris2005]

A uni degree isnt a requirnment on most courses that i know off.

Ive just been accepted on a training course following a tough selection process and having a degree def helped in my interview espically as it is an aerospace engineering degree.

Also the airlines love guys with some " life experience" so it gave me plently to talk about with regard to teamwork and setbacks etc. But if you got those things covered with other aspects with your life you should be ok

hope this helps

[97robem]

HI Guys

I desperately need help, I am currently 19 years of age and am working at manchester airport as a dispatcher for a well known handling agent.
I decided not to go to uni after gaining my a levels ,in maths physics and chemistry, grades ABD respectively, but to gain experience in the aviation world and to increase my understanding of it. I am now in the position where i want to begin my training but want to have the highest chance of getting a job at the end of it.
After speaking to many different flight deck they say you dont need a degree but a good head on your shoulders and the ability to learn and to become a good pilot.
I was wondering what advice you guys would give me on what you think the best age is to begin training, do you think i am too young at 19?, and also do you think a degree will stand you in a better chance of getting a job after your training or do you think experience and understanding of actual hands on work in the aviation industry is better.
Also I want to start at oxford do you guys think this is a good place? i have visited fte and oat and to me oat seems much more professional but still BY GB etc seem to like FTE.

any response would be great

thanks for your time guys

James