Question for the '89ers

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

In amongst the usual sledging that QF pilots receive on this forum, there is the persistent assertion that anything bad that comes their way is thoroughly deserved due to their lack of support for the AFAP in 1989.

I have challenged this assertion many times, but never received a reply. Can I (once again) ask a serious question and get a serious answer?

Q. Given that AIPA was and still is a separate union to the AFAP, and was not in dispute with Qantas in 1989, what precise level of support did you expect?

Can we keep it civil please?

[Bendy]

Dear TC of B

Can we keep it civil please?


I"m guessing.........................

Probably not

Good luck though

[Eastwest Loco]

Oh ..... My ....... God!!

INCOMING

Good luck everyone.

EWL:suspect: :uhoh: :{

[Ultralights]

some people just dont know when to drop the stick, and leave the hornets nest alone!





paitently waiting for the fireworks display!

[Kamelf Hucker]

Now that Ansett (the hot favourite for b!tching) is gone there's no one else to turn to when you feel like b!tching about ancient history, I suppose.

And you have to remember, Qantas (domestic) is just as full of scarboroughs as Ansett was. I guess they hoped they would be forgotten hiding in there quietly.

By accepting the merger, the AIPA accepted the baggage the TN (was it??) guys brought in with them......


But let's listen to Kaptin M, Amos, oldbeard and the others who never give up or let go. I woulda thought hatred and bile woulda killed them off years ago...

Where IS amos these days,anyway?????

[Agent Mulder]

And somebody should ask about the letter that the Chief Pilot sent to all ex Australian Airlines pilots on the A330 about their low standard of operation and knowledge recently.

Very interesting position for a Chief Pilot to take about his own pilots. But, then again, if the cap fits......

[wb727d]

i will
what was the letter and will ya tell me who th CP was ???

[Spad]

The_Cutest_of_Borg, sadly, the Qantas pilots sealed their own eventual collective fate and the earlier doom of those lesser mortals, the (mere) domestic pilots some years before 89 when they opted out of the AFAP to form their own companycentric union.

It's my belief that there were champagne corks a-flyin' that night in every airline boardroom in Australia. As to who was mostly to blame for the QF pilots departure, I have to admit that some of the blame has to be borne by the President of the AFAP at the time, of whom some true believers will hear no bad word said, even before his current medical situation made any criticism even more out of order to some. I'm not one of them - I blame him in part, but I lay the vast majority of the blame at the feet of the QF drivers of the day who considerd themselves too high and mighty to 'waste' their time and subs on the GA and domestic hoi polloi.

It was that industrial separation of QF from the rest of the pilots in Australia that gave Abeles and Strong and Abeles' Silver Bodgie puppet the green light to try a tactic they would never have dared to attempt if they had a single body of pilots representing all Australian commercial pilots to contend with.

Look what you've become - is there any better example than to cite the fact that the ex-president of AIPA has switched to Qandom so he can keep flying after 60? Can we call that an example of "keeping the jobs from the boys"?

As someone has already said, I stand by for the predictable incomings, but may I close by suggesting that 89 is water under the bridge. Anyone still with a glimmer of hope that it's not already too late HAS to put all that behind him and do everything he can to convince the many non-believers among younger pilots that a unified pilot group is the only hope anyone has of a decent future.

End of rant.

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Spad that doesn't answer the question.

[king oath]

Borg.

To answer your original question.

On the day the AFAP Victorian members met at a town hall to consider whether or not to give the Executive the power to act as they saw fit in the then festering dispute, the President of AIPA stood up and addressed the meeting. A similar address was probably made at other meetings. I don't know.

His comments were along the line of, we don't agree with the action you wish to take. We would do it differently. But we will support you, if necessary, by not flying over your routes. There were a couple of hundred witnesses there that day in the audience.

What happened after the merde hit the fan was that this promise was disregarded. They happily flew over the routes as did a lot of others.

No doubt the AFAP members of the day were mightily p*ssed off with their lieing AIPA counterpart.

Maybe they believed the promise, Borg. But then you don't live your life by believing promises. You play the cards you are dealt or get out of the game.

[Eastwest Loco]

My goodness gracious me!!!

Rational and measured discussion on '89.

I am pleased and impressed.

Go for it guys and girls, at this intelligent level.

There is a lot that needs to be aired for it to either go away or be rationalised, and this is exactly the way to do it.

Best all

EWL

[Spotlight]

Measured! Alright is it the case that Brian McCarthy is working for Virgin?

[Andu]

It's my belief that there were champagne corks a-flyin' (the day the QF pilots left the AFAP to form AIPA) in every airline boardroom in Australia.Not a truer word has been said re 89. It was at that point (was it 82 or 83?) that the first nail was driven squarely into the pilots' coffin.

It's time we all showed the brains to start undoing the damage done by the QF mainline pilots of that time and got together again - all of us - without any stupid "my dick's bigger than yours is 'cause I was accepted by QF mainline and you weren't" bullsh-one-t clouding the issue.

I don't care what acronym you want to use, but it's time we all formed a single, cohesive union of ALL commercial pilots within Australia.

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

I often wonder how differently things may have turned out had we resources such as the Internet available at such turning points as 1989.

King oath...

The then president of AIPA. ... hmmmmm.

Speaking as a humble troop at the time, I can say that I have no recollection of that promise being communicated to the AIPA membership. If you controlled the AIPA newsletter in those days you controlled AIPA, something the present leadership is having to come to grips with in regard to the internet. But it wouldn't surprise me one iota if it panned out exactly as you say. His swift absorption into management after the dispute and his actions since, speak for themselves. I would hate to be in charge of his farewell function from QF as phone booths are difficult to book and probably wouldn't be filled anyway.

What I can say is that I also have no recollection of carrying domestic passengers on flights such as the extension of the QF1 through SYD to MEL. I am not naive enough to believe it didn't occur, but I remember flying a lot of half empty aeroplanes around.
You guys have got to remember that the QF of 89 bears very little resemblance to today's model. We had 9 767's fully employed on International duty and around 28 classic 747's also similiarly employed. There was no mass domestic redeployment but international extension legs were flown. Not a lot of them, but definitely flown. That is how I recall it anyway but would stand to be corrected.

As far as the decision to leave AFAP in 82 is concerned, only about 8% of the current pilot list were around then and the architect is long dead. It happened, in hindsight it can be argued that it was a retrograde step, but we are talking 23 years ago.

It saddens me to know that QF pilots who were largely ignorant of the events you mention are being held to blame by people affected. Two thirds of the pilot list have joined SINCE 1989. It's probably not fair but I can see your point of view.

regards TCOB

[Eastwest Loco]

Borg

QF 747-200s were used into HBA ex SYD to try and clear the backlog. Some excellent footage hiding somewhere in Channel 6 vaults of the first 747 arrival.

This was obviosly with uncommitted capacity, and with called in crews but it did certainly assist in clearing the backlog and kep a few tourists dribbling in.

Royal Brunei, Monarch and Air 2000 also had some interesting equipment deployed here that serviced Tasmania.

Best all

EWL

[Spad]

As far as the decision to leave AFAP in 82 is concerned, only about 8% of the current pilot list were around then and the architect is long dead. It happened, in hindsight it can be argued that it was a retrograde step, but we are talking 23 years ago.All the more reason to put the past behind you, admit that the decision to separate yourselves industrially from the rest of the pilots in the industry might have been "a retrograde step" (!) and seek, in the strongest possible terms, to undo that decision and get back together, your "heroes" included...

In the short term, it doesn't matter one iota if pilots in one company are flying similar equipment for different pay and conditions. They can still be represented by one unified association if there's a will by the majority to have a unified association.

The important thing is to look to the future and do something to stop the rot that has so well and truly set in for everyone, (if to differing degrees), since 1989.

I think the biggest job will be convincing a large slab of the younger pilots that a union has a place in their lives. Too many of them don't understand that in large part, the only reason the job came to be something to aspire to was the hard slog put in by Dick Holt and the post WW2 generation of pilots to make the job into something worthwhile.

[Pete Conrad]

Spad, you had a shot at me regarding my high opinions of the ex Ansett pilots that now work in the QF group. How about you move on and lose the hatred and accept those guys on their own merit? In one post your having ago at me about the way I sing the praises of the ex AN guys, then in the above your saying the "heros" should be forgiven.

We are all tired of the 89 attitude, build a bridge and get over it. The world is changing, I'm sorry, the values of post WW2 are great and worth respecting, and I certainly have no disrespect for that but it's a different world now.

[Andu]

Anyone who thinks we pilots have any hope of pulling something - anything - half way constructive off has only to read the last post.

Pete asks Spad to "move on". Errr.. isn't that exactly Spad is suggesting we all do????

[Binoculars]

DONG! End of Round 2, back to your corners and prepare for a seventy five rounder.

It's the last three posts, couched in the new age gritted-teeth politeness as they are, that demonstrate the impossibility of a mutually-agreed ceasefire in the foreseeable future. EWL, you are wrong, there is no intelligent debate because there is no give and take possible.

We civilised westerners laugh mockingly at the religiously-inspired disasters of the Middle East, Ireland and the Baltic states; why on earth don't they get over it and see reason like us educated secular nations? Yet this single never-ending industrial dispute bears exactly the same hallmarks of the fatwas.

Think about it people, and tell me if I'm wrong. Tell me if you really believe that passing on your hatreds and bitterness to the next generation to ensure that your legacy is remembered is actually the best thing for that generation, namely, your kids.

Yeah, I thought that would be the case. Keep on arguing, guys and girls

[Eastwest Loco]

Yeah Bino

At least it has been held within civil and polite bounds so far.

We can but hope.

Best regards

EWL

[Kamelf Hucker]

I don't think either of you two are pilots, much less '89ers. Hard to keep out isn't it?

You two must really be bored.

[Kransky]

Spad said:
I think the biggest job will be convincing a large slab of the younger pilots that a union has a place in their lives. Too many of them don't understand that in large part, the only reason the job came to be something to aspire to was the hard slog put in by Dick Holt and the post WW2 generation of pilots to make the job into something worthwhile.
Spad, very true. He must be turning in his grave.

Dick Holts greatest contribution was, as I understand it, taking a group of pilots and getting them to all push in the same direction.

The key to his success was ensuring that each man spoke only on the topic he had researched, and squashed the competitiveness and divisive jealousies which are the natural makeup of pilots.

I shake my head at the enormity of the task.

It seems almost insurmountable these days. I guess we just don't have a man his equal in our ranks.

The biggest problem now though, IMHO, is not the naive young pilots that always cop the blame for not being unionised.

The biggest problem is the current union membership, particularly those in the big AFAP 'shops' like the QF regionals.

These [mostly] men are not into breaking new ground. They are into preserving their little slice. Their world view is twenty-five years out of date. They preserve cronyism and a boarding school mentality which is way out of step with the way modern companies employ people, and with the way the current generation is used to being employed.

Holt and his colleagues did something new when they made their push. They were innovators, they were intelligent, and they broke new ground as a union. They set a new national benchmark for airline working conditions.

They did this in the middle of the twentieth century when Alfred Deakins "Australian Settlement" and Justice Higgins style of industrial relations and social contract was mature and the norm.

Holt et al understood the law at the time, understood the processes available to them, pursued them diligently, and created something new.

This all had to change, unfortunately, with the 1980s. The dollar was floated, and Australia's economy was hitched to the international economy, and it has continued in that direction ever since.

Some of the '89er discussions on here are very deep, with some very traumatic experiences for those who went through it, but few cannot see the wood for the trees.

The '89 pilot strike failed because the government of the day had set the country on a course of globalizing the economy. It could only stay in power if it avoided a wage blowout. Its mechanism for avoiding such a blowout was The Accord. Then a union threatened that Accord by trying to negotiate directly with their employers. It just so happened that the 'rogue' union was the AFAP.

The government of the day, squashed the threat to what they saw as one of the cornerstones to re-election.

We now have a union that is very good at supporting individual members rights under what is left of the industrial position negotiated by Holt and his colleagues.

But it is a union with a nineteen-sixties culture. It does not reach out to new hires and new CPLs. It has an excellent technical staff and some of the best industrial relations practitioners in the country to protect individual pilot's rights.

But the membership, particularly the senior membership, is really rooted in an earlier industrial era.

It has become a niche player, mostly for the QF 'family' of regionals and for VB.

Awards have been stripped back, so a lot of the conditions included in the old days are just not up for negotiation anymore.

Items of great importance to the current crop of CPL's and ATPL's are just not on the agenda.

For example... what is the AFAP's policy on Single Engine Turbine as compared to multi? Caravans, PC12's are now a very common sight in the bush and on the tarmac, yet as far as CAO 82.3 is concerned Piper Navajo time is more valuable than ripping along at FL220 at twice the speed in an EFIS equipped PC12.

Another example... when I was in Darwin in the 1990s the AFAP membership was almost exclusively the rotary wing community. There were HUNDREDS of fixed wing cpls working at or below the award. These are the guys and gals who would be future members if the AFAP reps were not just reps for Bristow, Pearl/Skywest, but reached out to some folk that could use a union!

Or how about not just a policy on not paying for endorsements, but an actual united front prepared to stand in the way of companies that want pilots to pay for their training?

Unfortunately the real face of the union that I see is what I saw the other day on Bay 21 at Cairns.

A Sunstate fellow comes over for a chat. This fellow is an AFAP stalwart in Sunnies. Turns out he is curious about the B717 conditions at NJS.

Now we have all heard about what might and might not be going on. And the NJS people have taken a hit.

But this guys opinion? "They should not have taken it."

Well. Thank you. It is a great example of what is wrong with the union right now.

Here is a fellow in a nice secure spot in a QF regional. Talking to someone whose job was recently on the line, wondering how much their house would sell for when they lost their contract, and possibly not ever going to fly a jet again, until the news came through.

Where the hell was this guy when all the NJS boys and girls were sweating over their jobs?

Nowhere.

If, IF there had been some solidarity, or a concern within the AFAP and AIPA that a decision by (yet another) group of pilots to pay for an endorsement might lead to a general degradation of conditions for all Australian pilots, then maybe we might have heard....

.... that the AFAP, AIPA and QF regionals formally supported the NJS pilots by repudiating the concept of contributing to part of the cost of equipment upgrades,

.... that JetStar be censored by the unions for having 'no training costs' and limited industrial action be taken against companies that require pilots to pay for all or part of endorsements,

.... that the unions would support NJS pilots that helped preserve pilot conditions by refusing to pay, to the point that if such a fellow found himself out of a job as a result, the AFAP and its members within other airlines would find that pilot a job commensurate with his skills and experience,

But no. This guy expected a colleague to sacrifice his or her career with no support, because that would have been the right thing to do! :mad:

The AFAP is very good at representing and supporting individual pilots when they are in industrial trouble.

Where they, and here I mean not Lawrie and Steve but the President and the committee and the branches, have really fallen behind is in preserving a union culture that is out of step with the way the workplace really is for most pilots.

Seniority. The last industry in australia with this 1890's relic in industrial agreements. Young jet captains in the left seat with ex-Ansett F28/A320 grey haired skippers with ten times the jet command experience next to them as FO's.

I mean, imagine asking a Queens Counsel to return to clerking if they are forced to change chambers!

How about Portable Long Service Leave? Building industry workers get it all over Australia, from brickies mates up. Nobody works for one employer for their entire aviation career!

How about an informed position on Fatigue Management Systems and taking part in the debate? CAO 48 is built into the Award... it affects the very basic attendance at work and how you feel at work.

The current union voice is primarily concerned with retaining the good life of a safe and unadventurous few. They are not the innovators, lateral thinkers and community minded men of the past. The legacy of Holt and his colleagues has been lost.

This is why the AFAP, and eventually the AIPA, will become completely irrelevant to the australian aviation industry.

Not because junior pilots wont join!!

[Howard Hughes]

Great post Kransky! :ok:

And oh so very true.....

Cheers, HH.

:ok:

[OBNO]

AIPA can't even get all the Qantas Mainline pilots pointing in the same direction. I am constantly amazed at the infighting between Long Haul vs Short Haul, Senior Vs Junior, Q list V A list etc ... Good Luck in trying to get ALL Professional pilots under the one banner .

[bonvol]

I agree OBNO, too many factions that are entrenched in their position. Rome can only be rebuilt once Rome is first destroyed.

AIPA needs to be put out of its misery imo. The sooner the better. We have got nowhere under AIPA and never will. Too much sucking up to management and bending over at the slightest wiff of conflict. Bring on the TWU I say. Have an extraordinary general meeting whereby we resolve to go en masse to the TWU. Now that will get Dixons attention.

Having said that though I fear the troops are too institutionalised to go for such a radical solution so the beatings will continue and worsen. Just better get used to being on the railroad track to extinction as the last group of pilots in Australia to have half decent T & C's.

[Whiskery]

Q. Given that AIPA was and still is a separate union to the AFAP, and was not in dispute with Qantas in 1989, what precise level of support did you expect?


NONE !

................and everyone should get over it !

:ok:

[matca]

Kransky,

Spot on, well said.

[chimbu warrior]

Kransky.....that would be about the most considered and rational post I have ever seen on PPrune.

Spot on!

[Kaptin M]

Q. Given that AIPA was and still is a separate union to the AFAP, and was not in dispute with Qantas in 1989, what precise level of support did you expect?

Why - after 16 years - should that question be relevant today?
I'm afraid I'm unaware of any "persistent assertion that anything bad that comes their way is thoroughly deserved due to their lack of support for the AFAP in 1989.
But to answer your question , TCoB...if the clock could be turned back to say, 1988, with the then domestics intact, but with the QANTAS pilots having their positions threatened - as some of you feel you now are by the introduction of the A330 - would YOU expect any support from the (then) AFAP group of pilots, on the basis of, "if they get away with doing this to us, then you guys may well be next"?

Pilots in Australia are well aware of the commitment required, in terms of time and dollars, in cracking an airline job, and then keeping it.
Once in - under a seniority system - there is then a further "accepted" period of necessary waiting for advancement onto other types, and to a command.
It was - and still is, in QANTAS - an ordered system, that provided and guaranteed each and every pilot with his/her opportunity, equally and fairly, once they joined the queue.

As with any product that undergoes "quality control" (and I know that by the use of that particular terminology, I'm opening myself up for attack :ouch: ), there are some fish that John West rejects, such is the process of QF recruiting NOW, as it WAS in the domestic airlines in Oz, up until 1989.

So my question to you, TCoB, is, "How will YOU feel when the system under which YOU have been employed...the system that more or less guarantees your future...is suddenly trashed?"
Are all of you "senior F/O's" who see yourselves as Captains within the next few years prepared to be "scabbed on", as the opportunists who were previously rejected, or just aren't prepared to make the same commitments you have, take that to which you have been working towards for the past 6, 8, 10 years?
But of course, they're going to tell you, that it was just "bad luck" that they didn't get their guernsey :{

In short, TCoB, I agree with Whiskery - I believe the majority of us did NOT expect the QF pilots to offer any more support than they said they would.
Otoh, I did expect more support from other factions of the workforce of the airlines directly involved.
But then again which average Aussie is going to support silvertail pilots....regardless of what you fly, and how much you're paid, if you are a pilot in Australia you will ALWAYS be seen as overpaid and underworked!!

I wonder where the notion comes from, Kamel Phucker, that I - or any of the rest of us - harbour any "hatred and bile"?
Ansett finally suffered the same fate as East-West and IPEC. TAA had the enormous financial burden that was inflicted on them by the Dispute, passed onto QANTAS, when QANDOM was announced.

[Richard Kranium]

Yes very good post Kransky, and as you say the type of unionization that the AFAP represented in '89 belongs in the 18th and 19th century. Its one thing to belong to a union, but its another to have obligation to your employer, your career and most importantly your family. All of the '89ers that joined TAA and Ansett in those days, would have sat at the interview, cap in hand and said yes sir to every question, I would love to see what reaction would come from the interviewer if the new SCPL boy or girl just said, I'll just work 9 to 5 if I don't get what I want.

I saw first hand the intimidation that the AFAP meated out to people whom they perceived as not to be the true believers, I found it amazing and I was very concerned by these actions displayed by the commitee and the reps in such a represive manner, they acted in a way that was no better the the BLF or any other bloody minded union or represive regime. Now these same bloody minded people still to today publish $--b Lists and prevent guys attaining jobs even if these guys had nothing to do with the dispute.

The QF guys could see long ago that the AFAP offered them nothing, it was dominated by Ansett and TAA and could get out voted at every turn, so the smart thing to do was to set up their own union in the form of AIPA, good on them, smart thinking, like the smart guys that knew, that the '89 strike was a huge failure. I was at university at the time and a friend was doing his honours in Industrial Relation, later got a PhD said straight out, that the AFAP have shot themselves in the foot big time and there is no way they will win this dispute, and that was right, everybody was against the AFAP even the public, the only light was John Halfpenny for the AFAP but he was a red rag Communist.

States, companies, and people were suffering over this, there was enourmous damage done financialy to the extent of businesses closing down, people loosing their jobs and careers ruined, all because the AFAP thought that they were above every body else, they thought were equal to Judges, Doctors, and CEO's. One thing I learn't is, that its their train set, and I do as asked by my employer, if I don't like it I can leave, opportunities are never lost someone told me, its just taken up by someone else.

I applaud the guys that did not resign and or went back and got on with the job, that is now what the future holds in Industrial Relation, smart thinking and approach to these matters, and working together with employers for a common goal, lousy companies will have a huge turn over of staff and not amount to anything, smart companies will prosper. The '89er had a choice, some never resigned, some came back after a while, then others just never wanted to come back, I see it as a personal choice, I will always join a union and contribute to the benefit of all concerned, but never would I go on strike and damage the company I work for as I have a right to resign.

[Motorola]

Did you mean "Well said?"

Woomera

[Kaptin M]

Mr Kranium, you really should not post long-winded, posts, on subjects about which you so obviously have zero - or at best, extremely limited - knowledge.
The 1989 Dispute nmever saw the pilots "strike", the "some (who) came back after a while[\i]", were FORCED to be taken back by court order, after the AFAP lodged a discrimination appeal against the companies. The ONLY ones taken back by AN were "The Dirty Dozen [i]aka The 12 Disciples".

My uncle was a Check and Training Captain with QF during his pilot years, after retirement as a pilot, he was employed on the QF recruitment panel, and following retirement there, went to work for Honeywell.
In 1989, he visited me in BNE, and said, "You wouldn't want to go back and work for those b#sta#rds (in Ansett) again, would you?!".
He then related a stroy of the QANTAS strike some 20-30 years prior, in which 1 QF pilot scabbed. He had never forgotten his name, to that day.
He also said how he felt some sympathy for the chap, whose son subsequently drowned in a swimming accident, however NONE of the QF pilots attended the funeral.
He`s still fit and well, no "hatred nor bile" - but he will remeber the name of the person who attempted to undermine the majority, and who - by his OWN choice - ostracised himself from them.

[Fubaar]

Shame to see this heading in the all too predictable direction. I have to agree with those who say the first cut of the axe towards today's parlous situation for pilots was the Qantas pilots removing themselves from the AFAP.

I think I can safely ignore the very aptly named "Richard Cranium's" endorsement of what a 'good idea' it was.

[GoGirl]

Really enjoyed reading your post Kransky :ok:

Cheers
GG

[Capt Claret]

Kransky

A very erudite post. :ok:

[bonvol]

Yeah, good post Kransky. Many good points there.

As for seniority, it is a bit hard to compare with QC's etc. These people have skills that are individually identifiable and have never worked under a seniority system. Pilots are commodities. Whilst one pilot may be "better" than another, rewarding outperformance under the global methods for remunerating pilots doesn't exist ( as far as I know).

How do you dismantle a seniority system in a company where it has been running for many years? I guess a simple way is to just impose it if you have the power...a la 89. I suppose you could also grandfather it out too. Messy, but could be done.

Under the non seniority system how would F/Os become Captains ? Australia is a desirable place to live. I could envisage that companies under the economic rationalism, "free trade" mantra of our anti worker government could just import Captains ad infinitum. Theres plenty out there who would happily jump at the opportunity...look at 89 again.... and that was to come as scabs. For legitimate jobs QF would have no shortage thats for sure.

Your post raises some good debating points. Want a job as Pres :E ?

[Richard Kranium]

Arrrr Kaptin M, I know more about this subject than you realize or give me credit for, yes some did not resign and good on them, they though for themselves, others M, came back in dribs and drabs as they began to see the stupidity of it all, and that their families and careers ment more them than following a corrupt oppressive and thuggish leadership, at best an intermediate cerificate ex tradesmen that managed to get a pilots licence with no formal education.

I often wondered where on earth does this mentality come from, to treat your employer with such disrespect and your job as some god given right. Mr Motorola said, I spoke like a true gentleman, how would he know Mr. M without knowing me, so by expressing my thoughts I have been labeled and pigeonholed. I often wondered about the ethnic kids born in this country that can be so vile and act in such an un- Australian way about something that may be happening thousands of miles away, It seems that the prejudice, bias, hatred and unintelligent thinking is handed down like family heirlooms.

It seems Mr M, that you may got yours from your relative that worked for QF, its hard to imagine that someone would hold such a stupid grudge only because someone didn't believe in ones cause, and to call Ansett a bunch of b-----tards, I suppose he applied to them and got rejected years before. Why did you join Ansett Mr M if you hated them so much, I'm sure your uncle would have given you good and sound advice.

[tipsy]

In answer to your Page 1 question Spotlight, Yes he is and he is surrounded there by a plethora of like minded individuals from the CP down.

tipsy

[Pete Conrad]

Yeah, and the hypocrisy is, half of the workers came back and took jobs with Impulse and Virgin Blue working for less pay and conditions than what they fought so valiantly for in 1989!!!!

Time to moooooove on!!

[Kaptin M]

Your post is interesting, Kransky, and certainly contains some points of interest that Australian pilots should be pursuing.

I'm sure you'll also agree, that it's easy to be wise with 100% hindsight!

There is absolutely no doubting that Dick Holt was a galvanising force for Australia's pilots. In no way am I attempting to downplay the very great influence that Dick had in unifying Australia's airline pilots, because the airlines employed guys that were easily identified, and as such, more easily "roped in".

G.A. pilots have - and always will, because of the topography of Australia - remain more independent of the overall pilot group. But that is not to say they are not aiming for, practicing, and expecting to achieve the SAME standards as each and every other Australian pilot.The '89 pilot strike failed because the government of the day had set the country on a course of globalizing the economy. Firstly, Kransky, there was NEVER a "strike"!
But that popular misconception aside, the ONLY reason the pilots did not win FAIRLY, was because the Hawke led government changed the legislation to favour the airlines.

In other words, the Hawke led Government of the day colluded with the airlines, to win by dirty pool.
Whether the AFAP had an "1890's or 1960's" mindset in YOUR opinion is irrelevant - the AFAP was playing FAIRLY by the rules that existed in 1989.

The 1989 Pilots' Dispute was NOTHING to do with "globalizing the (Australian) economy."...that doesn't exist today, although QF employees probably feel that Dixon is trying his hardest to achieve it in some areas of QANTAS........otherwise ALL Australians would be working on "globalised" conditions.
It WAS all about a corrupt Prime Minister having his strings pulled by a long term benefactor - Rupert Murdoch - his (Hawke's) attempting to stay in favour with his current, wealthy, transport magnate, confidante, Peter Abeles, and being able to have a shot at a group (the Australian pilots) that had resisted ACTU affiliation - of which Hawke was a former, long-term President.

Factually speaking, there is a LOT that is conveniently glossed over in discussions about the 1989 Dispute - factors that played major roles in determining the final outcome.

As I stated before, it is all too easy to appear 100% "smart", with the knowledge of HINDSIGHT.

The AFAP of 1989 played FAIRLY by the rules of the day.
After all isn't that the way ALL fair-minded Aussies do things?

So, Kransky, you are asking for SOLIDARITY on the one hand - a recognition by other pilots, that the actions that are being seen to affect ONE pilot should be seen to affect ALL..."Where the hell was this guy when all the NJS boys and girls were sweating over their jobs?"
But then, on the other hand, demanding individual recognition of experience to jump AHEAD of those who have joined the queue....."I mean, imagine asking a Queens Counsel to return to clerking if they are forced to change chambers!"

You sound like a politician, my friend - trying to appeal to the masses, by offering them a little bit of what each hopes to hear.

And for Dick Kranium........your comprehension is so far outside the normal IQ of just about EVERYONE else, that I really can't be bothered wasting my time replying!

[RIVER1]

Yes Kraptin is right there was not a strike,the pilot group almost to a man resigned.When someone resigns the employer replaces that person in the best way possible and that is all that happened.Ansett was the best job I ever had and I made the most of it,now reaping the rewards of cheaper air travel feeding my tourist business.Kraptin is a dinosour and needs to move on but I personally thank him and his like minded friends for facilitating the changes to the industry.I think the younger generation understands that whilst operating a modern aircraft requires some unusual skills one should not start to think that those computor skills set them too far apart from the normal populance.

[Flying Ninja]

AAAAAAAHHHHH! REALITY CHECK.........Good Kaptin!!!!!!!


I wonder what would your uncle would say if he heard that you DID d want to work for those "Bas...ds" and WENT to them on the SLY to get a job when you realized it was all turning to ****e!

As for the "conspiracy theory" ...........................

[Chief Chook]

Omigosh, looks like the spelling police will have an absolute field day with the last two posts!

[matca]

'at best an intermediate certificate ex tradesman that managed to get a pilots licence with no formal education'

You must be joking friend, would you like to limit the pilot ranks to your educated friends who have 'honours in industrial relations......who later got a phd.......'

You didn't happen to read Lindsay Fox's story a week or two ago?


By the way Richard, I will have fries with that.

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Woomera... as the the instigator of this thread, can I call a halt to it now before it gets out of control?

I sorta got my answer...

[Woomera]

Cute one: The score so far is three users thread banned for a short period whilst they cool off, and four posts edited.

All users are aware of PPRuNe zero tolerance to certain aspects of the ’89 pilot’s dispute. Most of what is being raised in this thread is simply a repetitious rehash of what has been said many times over the past sixteen years. Personal perspectives and opinions may never change, nor it seems, will either side ever bury the hatchet.

The same old arguments are not going to be regurgitated again and again on PPRuNe.

We’ll let this thread run for a further day, however if the posts continue to degenerate down the usual path, the thread will be locked.

Woomera

[TheNightOwl]

KaptinM - while I have no wish to comment on the subject, one point in your post on p3 was, to me, very revealing. You said "...whose son subsequently drowned in a swimming accident, however NONE of the QF pilots attended the funeral".

What are we to infer from this? That the QF pilots were correct in their action in not attending the funeral?
Were they so bereft of humanity that they could not put aside their work differences, which were purely of a philosophical nature, sufficiently long to give HUMAN support to a family in grief?

What does that tell us about the pilot group as people, instead of as pilots?

KInd regards,

TheNightOwl.

[Kaptin M]

"The same old arguments are not going to be regurgitated again and again on PPRuNe."

Here, here!! Some of us are getting sore heads :ugh:
By the same token, 16 years on, and the workplace in Australia is very different to that which existed back in 1989.

For clarification, Richard Kranium, the b#st#rds my uncle referred to were the likes of Abeles, Murdoch & Macmahon.
"Why did you join Ansett Mr M if you hated them so much"?
I offered them my services for what I believed was market value, at the time.
They got a good deal!!

TNO, I'm not about to pass any judgement on the QF pilots' decision.
"What does that tell us about the pilot group as people, instead of as pilots?"
It tells me a couple of things, (i) pilots can be just as bloody-minded as any other group of employees when they know that one of their own has tried to sabotage the group, (ii) that that particular pilot openly showed he didn't wish to be part of "the whole", by his actions, and that he had that wish granted.

My uncle told me that there was a feeling of sympathy for the man, however WHY would they wish to support someone who had attempted to destroy their livelihoods?
He was no longer their friend.
Pilots are people, and have the same emotions as any other person, regardless of their line of work.
In reality, most pilots have had other jobs besides flying :eek: in my case, I've worked in the sinter plant of BHP at Newcastle as a labourer; as a council worker, pushing a lawn mower; as a shop assistant, selling (and laying) floor coverings and furniture; a brickie's labourer; and as a waiter and relief restaurant manager..........all to fund my flying!
Getting to the positions pilots do takes a lot of hard work - why SHOULDN'T we guard those positions, that took so much to achieve, as strenuously as we need to!

[HANOI]

Kaptin M

Here here.....where where.......did you mean hear , hear.
you are often quick to point out other peoples errors.

[Jet_Black_Monaro]

This subject is so boring!

[Richard Kranium]

Well it took a little time to stew on it Kaptin M and not wanting to waste time on me as my IQ was so outside the normal, you are not Robinson Caruso in doing all sorts of jobs to get your flying experience, I could almost hear the violins playing...NOW!!! I know where your union mentality comes from....Newcastle!!...I should have known, yet I come from a similar background and can't understand that thinking at all.

Its amazing how its only you and your ilk did all the hard yards, how conceited you are, you offered your services to Ansett...your arogance is breathtaking...wow...I bet you think Ansett should have thanked their lucky stars and worshiped the tarmac you walked on when you joined, finally god has arrived.

But of course no one else is allowed to offer their service once you and your kind have decided to take their bat and ball and left....you see Kaptin M, no one is irreplaceable, others saw an opportunity knocking and took it, as I said before, opportunities are never lost they are just taken up by someone else.

So you and your ilk must blame someone else for stuffing up your lives, naturally your kind aren't intelligent enough to look in the mirror, so blame is pointed at people that had nothing to do with the '89 saga, the easy targets as I call it....and now you and your kind actively finger people that want new opportunities in other companies around the world where your lot sit and deny jobs to innocent people.

Its amazing how there is a rule you and your lot and rule for others, how your lot try to came across as the Aussie Battlers, yet step on others when it suits you, your last paragraph shows what kind of people you are. So getting to the position as pilots takes a lot of hard work you say, so why did you not respect the very company that gave you that opportunity, where did you get the notion that this position was your god given right. Your last post says it all about your lot.

[Don Esson]

Hennoy,

Mayb tha good kaptens spall chequer is demaged and not werking enymoor?

[Kaptin M]

Thank you HANOI you are quite correct with both observations. (Incidentally, there's an apostrophe after the 's' in "peoples" :cool: )
you and your kind actively finger people that want new opportunities in other companies around the world where your lot sit and deny jobs to innocent people. I have absolutely NO idea what you're on about, Richard - but then again do YOU??!!
So you (and your ilk) must blame someone else for stuffing up your lives?? Oops, there seems to be an echo in here.
(BTW, I didn't state which end of the IQ scale I thought you were outside).

[ginjockey]

OK. Just a quick time out and refresher for those who came in late.....

1989 - Greed drives large numbers of airline pilots to strike in attempt to extort Australian economy and major airlines into non realistic wage agreement. Pilots enjoy support of weak and dysfunctional union.

Pilots refuse to fly forcing airlines to employ non strikers and contract staff to fill vacant positions.

Contract pilots go on to enjoy careers in the country of their choice.

Strikers lose the battle, want their lost jobs back, can't find jobs in Australia, have to go live in third world countries flying for Bamboo Shoot Airlines and other backward operators on reduced pay and conditions.

2005 - Strikers still living in third world countries, still complaining that they were hard done by, still have not made peace with themselves about their mistake and still blame every other bastard for their ruined lives and clearly do not have the materials to build their bridge and GET OVER IT!

OK, resume discussion.

[Woomera]

Nah, this thread isn't going anywhere. No new evidence - just the same old rhetoric from all sides.

The original question has been answered. Thanks for all your contributions.

Woomera