The 'No' campaign

[Shagtastic]

Fancy a pint? 'YES'

Wanna pay for your rating? 'NO F... OFF!

An ambitious ideal but greedy employers have to hear pilots start saying no from now on. Agree?

[Highbypasss]

Of course I agree. Of course we ALL agree! But HOW?......WHO???.....WHERE???

At this stage (apparently) it's all just an "idea" and not yet finalised at Eastern. (Dash 8)

.......................................................:cool : H

[Reverseflowkeroburna]

HOW?

With the strength of character that a dozen other employers would be proud to have in their organisation & that which will earn you the respect of your industry colleagues!


WHO?

With the individual of course.....YOU!


WHERE?

At the point where you'd like to continue your career with the dignity you deserve & that which you'd like to see your children have for themselves!




But easy it will not be Grasshopper!!!!

[MOR]

It'll never happen.

Far too many pimply youths, who are more concerned with furthering their careers than trying to stop this nonsense. Those that say "no" will have no jobs (but still have their dignity), those that say "yes" will have the jobs, and no concept of dignity.

As far as I am concerned, the ones that pay for type ratings are not really that different to those who work during strikes... you know... sc (no no mustn't say it) :cool:

[Icarus2001]

So you are saying...

Pay for Private Licence - Acceptable

Pay for Commercial Licence - Acceptable

Pay for Instrument Rating - Acceptable

Pay for Instructor Rating - Acceptable

Pay for type endorsement - No bloody way, who do they think they are etc etc

Just because this is new in Aus does that make it "wrong". FWIT I do not not like the idea either but why is it so different to buying a licence and a CIR? Go to Uni and pay as well!

Yes the companies should pay for a type endorsement but the reality is say no and no job. You can get on your soap box as much as you like on an anonymous internet forum but it will not change the reality.

I have to say though, $15-20K for a DHC8 endorsement and then earn $43K and live in Sydney does not sound as good as $20K for a B737 endorsement and earn $85K and live in Brisbane.

[distracted cockroach]

MOR, I really resent that comment about the "s" word that must not be said.
A scab is someone who takes the job of a worker who is on strike or locked out. The only recent real example I can think of are the low lifes who took jobs at Ansett NZ when their pilots were locked out. It has no similarity to buying a type rating.
If a company is demanding it's current employees pay for a type rating, then they are out of line and a good employment contract should prevent it.
If a company is offering a new job with a type rating as a prerequsite (a la Pac Blue, Jetconnect, Freedom, VB etc) then the purchase of a type rating is up to the individual. Buy a rating and get a job, or wait to be called up by Air NZ/Qantas/Emirates/SQ/Cathay or whoever. Pay your money or take your chances.
Yes I paid for a type rating and I have no regrets. I may still be waiting for that call.
Like it or not (and personally I don't) but times have changed.

[Binoculars]

Disclaimer: Not a pilot, no axe to grind, perhaps even to some I have no right to comment.

The logic in the first half of Icarus's post is unassailable. Not liking something does not by definition make it unacceptable, and the spotty faced youths accused of undermining the profession were there five, ten, twenty and thirty years ago and always will be there as long as people get stars in their eyes about flying like a bird.

Airline companies are waking up to the essential facts of supply and demand and are using that rule to their advantage. Those losing out are naturally squealing and I don't blame them, but it's out of perceived losses in conditions and status rather than anything inherently unfair.

I often wonder if those in airline jobs who take the high moral ground now can look at their own history and honestly say they were any different when they had stars in their own young eyes. Was there anything in their life more important than furthering their careers back then?

[Kamelf Hucker]

I love how suddenly everyone else in the world is an expert on pilots' conditions. Where's sunfish with his expert opinion as well?Wanna pay for your rating? 'NO F... OFF!"Whaddawewant??? Free ratings...... Stick together lads!"

*quietly sneaks off*

"Yeah I'll have that job, here's the cash..."

See the problem? Nice idea, but it's too late, thanks to capitalistic adventurism.

[matca]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, (and please address replies to me personally, I wont take offense) but don't they want you to fly their aircraft to make a profit for themselves? In that case it should be their business cost and it should be factored into the airfare cost??? It is not up to the employee to bear the risk of a business plan, it is up to the business. They are the ones making the big dollars and if they're not that's their problem. If the business fails and you are out of a job? You knew this before you entered the industry and if you didn't, where have you been since Orville and Wilbur

Deadset - I would think it's ok to pay for a course that increases your employability whilst you are not employed, and that's what doing a ppl, cpl, cir or instructor rating is, but to be asked to pay for something that the employer requires for him to make money out of your sweat, hello............hello..............hello??????

What the f*^k are you clowns thinking? If you pay for a type rating whilst employed by somebody who needs you to fly that type so they can make money out of you??????

Don't you ever whinge on this forum, in the pub or anywhere else 'cause you've got no right.

Why don't you bastards form a credible union that represents everybody. The truth is there's a group of you who know they are on a good wicket and are sweating on making it to retirement without losing too much. There's another group who think they've 'made it' because they fly jets, but deep down they know they may be asked to pay for another type rating and will use every excuse to justify doing so, 'it's a tax deduction,' 'it's the new world order,' 'it's a pay rise to fly this type and I'll get my investment back in only 3 years.' There's another group who are young and impressionable who are made to think that these are the options they have.

'My name's Jack, and I'm alright' (f*^k the rest of you, so long as I'm alright)

The realities are there are opportunities to make a good living in many fields, if you are industrious enough to get a pilots licence, you are industrious enough to have a back-up. Tell them to f*^k off, do something else or fly for an organisation that values you. If no-body does, tell them all to f*^k off while their 'planes rot on an apron somewhere. Here's an idea, build a homebuilt with two or three mates, (it'll cost you the same as paying for an endorsement) have a homelife and enjoy your flying, (after you've told the parasites to f*^k off)

There are some industries that require representation, you blokes (sorry, and birds) do. More than anything, you need protection from yourselves. There are some unions that are affective and it's not about being a militant t*^d that runs through an office and scares the be-jesus out of your sister or missus.

It's about that fella at the top on $250,000:00 + saying 'that fella coming in on the dash is not paying for his/her endorsement' and the fella coming in on the dash saying 'no, I'm not paying for the endorsement on the dash' (knowing that his brother at the top is supporting him).

The revolution will come (history tells us this) have you got the balls or are you going to leave it to your kids, then again;

'My name's Jack, and I'm alright' (f*^k the rest of you, so long as I'm alright)

[Kamelf Hucker]

wow... anyone know if a huge shipment of really good Columbian sh!t has hit the streets lately???

[justathought]

matca,
quote
" but don't they want you to fly their aircraft to make a profit for themselves? "

thats a stink argument dude, as a pilot, don't you want to fly that aircraft to make a profit for yourself? You need that rating in order to offer the service for which you want to be paid.

That said....I think that the airlines should pay for the ratings....mainly because then I wont have to.
Your post is good for a laugh tho, this dude on the Dash, don't worry about him....he's probably going to be ok anyway if his brother is the fella at the top on 250k.

ttfn

[MOR]

distracted cockroach


A scab is someone who takes the job of a worker who is on strike or locked out.

And someone who pays for a type rating is quite possibly taking a job from somebody more experienced or capable, purely on the basis of having the money to take advantage of greedy airlines.

They are different, but both are morally corrupt and my point is that in my book, those who pay for type ratings are of a similar moral level to sc - oops better not say it...

In your case, you are also a hypocrite. You say you don't like it, but you do it anyway. Not a lot of backbone on display there.

So now, when I see your username, I will have a clear mental picture of your moral values. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

[distracted cockroach]

MOR
If you want to get into a personal slagging match, I'll leave you to it. You don't know what my situation is/was so your opinion is really irrelevent to me.
Fact of the matter is.....if you are forced into the job market in any industry, sometimes you need to upskill to get a new job. This now applies to aviation in many incidences.
Like I said before, inside a company, different story, but in the open market it's best insect for themselves.
Times change, like it or not.

[MOR]

best insect for themselves

Yes, that pretty well sums it up... :rolleyes:

[Animalclub]

MOR

Your analogy is a little strange. It's just like saying that Universities (or any school for that matter that charges a fee for tuition) are being greedy.

There's no such thing as a free lunch. Someone has to pay in the end!!

[donpizmeov]

Out of interest take a look at qantas.com.au, have a look at employment, and click on graduate. Its says that qf will fully sponsor a bean counter for a CPA. Yet they expect their Jet* drivers to couth up for a rating.
That just shows where pilots fit in the airline food chain these days.
Should have become a train driver instead.

Don

[F/O Bloggs]

According to the Concise Oxford Dictionary- "a scab is a person who refuses to join a strike or takes a striker place. "
If you are not on strike and get locked out by the company for refusing to accept the company's contractual conditions, and others join the company who are willing to accept those contractual conditions, then what is the difference to your case as to your purchasing an endorsement which is a condition of employment to the company. As MOR sees it you are just undercutting someone else who is not willing to or cannot pay for an endorsement and therefore just as morally reprehensible.

[Al E. Vator]

Why is anybody even contemplating this rubbish?

Does a freight company ask a driver to pay for his forklift rating?
Does NASA ask astronauts to pay for Space Shuttle ratings?

My brother is an accountant. He got a new job where the employer
paid him to finish his CPA qualifications.

The answer is simple, too many pilots and too few jobs and the employer can shaft you however he likes. The only answers are:
1) Less pilots more jobs or
2) ONE pilot union (combination of AIPA and AFAP) whose leaders are paid and not simply using the union as a ladder to management. If pilots don't join that union they should not be entitled to any gains the union acheives on behalf of the members.

In the short term, I dont see either of the above happenning. Until somebody takes charge, you guys are going to get progressively more shafted by the upwardly-mobile Corporate types.

Paying for ratings isn't scabbing as such but still undermines everybody. Don't do it.

[bigfella5]

FOR GODS SAKE YOU MORONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.......................one union,one point of view (generally),one way of getting around in the airline world........it's so bloody simple!!!!!!!!!
Please sweet Jesus, it'd be nice to see some balls being exhibited on this forum now and again. :{

[MOR]

Animalclub

It's just like saying that Universities (or any school for that matter that charges a fee for tuition) are being greedy.

Not at all, in fact your analogy is faulty.

The qualification that you need to fly an aircraft is a CPL. It is analogous to the qualification you need to be a lawyer (LLB).

In the same way that a newly-qualified lawyer, or accountant, or doctor, then goes on to specialise at the expense of their employer , so a pilot goes on to specialise by training on a particular type of aircraft.

It has nothing to do with fees, it is about the point at which general training gives way to specific training.

F/O Bloggs says:

you are just undercutting someone else who is not willing to or cannot pay for an endorsement and therefore just as morally reprehensible.

That is exactly right. It is no longer about ability or aptitude, it is about money, and the result is that some questionable people have got jobs that they have essentially bought.

The correct criteria are skill and ability.

[VH-Cheer Up]

So if I want to run BHP, should I tell those greedy mining magnates to shut up and pay for my Harvard MBA so I can do the job properly?

Or do you think they might want me to pay for it myself and make sure I can perform, before taking me on in a lesser role at some massive salary package?

[MOR]

Funny you should say that, it is often exactly what happens.

Corporates often identify promising performers at university level and pay for their advanced studies.

Paying for it yourself indicates precisely nothing about your abilty to perform at the highest management levels.

You certainly won't get taken on with a massive salary package, and be allowed to work below your pay grade - never happens.

Corporates understand the need to select people with potential and nurture them. Airlines, on the other hand, increasingly perceive pilots as expensive bus drivers. To an extent they are right, as very few pilots ever rise to senior management levels where they can have a positive impact on the bottom line.

It isn't the glamorous job it once was, and pilots will continue to be marginalised as accountants become more controlling.

[gatfield]

Until you walk in someone else's shoes and live their life - I think its pretty damn rude to critique someone's decision to pay for a rating.

[Shagtastic]

Been away for a few days.. back now.

I am a bit surprised to see MOR's remark about 'pimple faced wanabees' paying the coin for a rating and subsequently screwing every other bugger.

Never a truer word said, I'll give him that, but the National Jet pilots who have accepted a pay cut and will cough up $35,000 for a 717 rating aren't exactly pimple faced wanabees are they. These guys have been around for years.

Pimple faced 50 year olds happy to screw themselves more like it.

Shaggy

[MOR]

Sorry shaggy, thinking in Euro terms.

There is only one thing in this industry more immoral than kiddies jumping the queue on the basis of daddy's visa card... and that is airlines that force existing employees to re-train at their own cost. That should be illegal in Oz. It is almost certainly illegal in Europe (under European law). Of course we won't know until someone takes it to the courts.

Of course you are right, those smooth-cheeked 50-year-olds are screwing themselves (and everyone in the same position in the future).

I thought Aussie unions had balls?

[HIALS]

Under the concepts of market economics - pilots should be doing a cost/benefit analysis of self-funded type ratings.

Ignoring the moral and philosophical arguments. Given the low, and apparently declining wages being paid in Australia - it might be considered a poor investment.

The figures I saw quoted here for a Dash-8 endorsement, when compared to salary paid for a Dash-8 pilot - do not make the endorsement a wise, prudent or economically rational investment.

[Shagtastic]

I have often seen comments on D&G about people happy to pay for a 737 rating in order to get into say Virgin Blue, and then with the jet airline experience under ones belt apply to the likes of Emirates, Cathay or QF etc.

I wouldn't be surprised if these players introduce self funded type rating schemes themselves in the near future if they see they can get away with it.

Hence the need for pilots to start declining the offer of buying a rating and obtaining a position based on your financial resources.

It seems ironic however that even attractive outfits such as Emirates is going downhill rapidly reducing T&C's and flogging the crews to a very early retirement.

Shaggy

[Icarus2001]

obtaining a position based on your financial resources. Would you say that the opportunity to become a pilot in the first place is also largely based "on your financial resources"?

Any average human with high levels of self motivation, average intelligence and hand eye co-ordination can become a commercial pilot. The ATPL exams seem to sort a few out hence the now discredited practise of heading to the US for a quick FAA ATPL and then convert it to an Oz ATPL.

So one of the main factors that comes into play for those who would like to become commercial pilots surely is their financial resources? We all know of aspiring pilots who work two jobs, scrimp and save, drive thirty year old cars and generally live a careful lifestyle in order to save funds for their training.

One of the major motivators for pilots to aspire to the airlines has been money & lifestyle. If they now have to fork out again to get that then they will. Supply & demand wins every time.

The ability to go to university now is also based to a large degree on financial resources. Forget about HECS even. How do you pay rent, eat and run the required vehicle whilst at university without working so many hours that it inteferes with your study?

I don't like it but my thoughts and yours do not matter. Business makes decisions that are best for them in the same way pilots make decisions that are best for themselves.

Someone has made the point elsewhere that when the career of airline pilot loses much of its' attraction then the numbers enrolling at flying schools will dwindle and supply and demand will make a correction. I believe that this slow down at the entry level is already happening.

There are also other factors generally reducing the interest of young children in aeroplanes. No more flight deck visits, tech crew less likely to do a cabin walk through, places like YSBK closing observation areas, the "flying bomb" link to terrorism paints aviation with negative images, more glamorous white collar jobs that pay more. Look at the huge growth in MBA courses!

One final thought... how low could QF or Cathay salaries drop before it really had a meaningful impact on recruitment? There my friend is the future!

[surfside6]

Be patient..the pendulum is beginning to swing the other way.Its too late if you are over 50 you have probably seen and had the best of it.If you are over 30 and under 45 ..your time is coming.The next 5 years will be both exciting and interesting.You will however need to be both astute and intuitive.My father was a Commercial pilot.He and his colleagues spent hours over BBQ's trying to predict the future of aviation in this country.This was back in the late 70's(and well before 89) So far they have been pretty close to the money...technology,politics,greed,arrogance,short sightedness and loss of mutual respect and comraderie have all played a part in the evolution of the present.
In our neck of the woods(Asia)growth in travel will be enormous over the next 10 years .With the growth of the middle classes,paricularly in China and India there will be a shortage of both capacity and drivers.The opportunities will abound..just don't screw it up!!(for yourselves and those who follow)

[MOR]

You could drop salaries to near zero, and recruitment would still thrive. However, retention would plummet. Nobody would stay longer than it took them to find a better job.

Now here is a question for you: why do Aussies insist on calling pilots "tech crew"? Now that is a b*llsh*t phrase if ever I heard one. Pilots are pilots, apart from Captains of course, who are God. ;)

[Captain.Q]

Aussies can't spell very well."Tech" has less letters and is almost phonetic.Pilot just has too many letters..hence "tech"crew.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Sorry guys, but to my mind if you wish to make money in this world there are a couple of ways (essentially) to do it:

* work in the finance industry (money makes money after all!)

* start your own business (lots of risk)

* upskill yourself to the point of being invaluable/essential (lots of cost/effort to yourself)

* be born into priviledge

* smoke pole

At the end of the day, everybody in society is required to whore themselves to their employer (true, don't like it: move to a Communist Utopia like North Korea)

Why are pilots so different by being required to pay for their professional development? So what if certain employers are willing to pay for the employees to gain extra qualifications... power to them. I guess they don't operate in an industry where the marketplace is flush with applicants who are willing to screw others to look after themselves. I to be honest, I find all this discussion of "scabs" to be rather offensive. Striking and unionised behavior is for workforces that lack the ability to intelligently negotiate and debate an issue. Surely the Australian public isn't trusting their lives to people who do not even poses this most basic of skills?

[Johhny Utah]

I'm guessing you made it to the top through your ability to:
* smoke pole
?
;)
Sure sounds like you're looking for a management office to me.... :mad:

[MOR]

Striking and unionised behavior is for workforces that lack the ability to intelligently negotiate and debate an issue. Surely the Australian public isn't trusting their lives to people who do not even poses this most basic of skills?

Errrrr... well... actually... :p

applicants who are willing to screw others to look after themselves.

Ah, just found the phrase I was looking for!

One of the problems is that companies who upskill their employees expect increasingly high levels of commitment and return. Thus a highly trained "whatever" is expected to make stupendous amounts of money and, in return, get paid many times their investment in training - often in the first two or three years. Heart attacks and burnout come later.

Pilots are expected to, you know... not crash. It doesn't matter how well you don't crash, the company doesn't make any more money. Nor do you.

Now why do we do this again...???

[Point0Five]

Johhny Utah

Sorry mate, but the gay and lesbian the Mardi Gras isn't on until Saturday night.

Shame isn't it, but reality hurts. I wasn't trying to be facetious, it's just that life supports those who are willing to feign interest in others. Perhaps understanding the mindset of management will allow you to negotiate with them better?

Just out of interest, what's wrong with being "management"? Somebody has to decide how the business will be run, could you do a better job?

[Shagtastic]

Piss-a-Frozo,

You obviously can't be worrking as a pilot.. you're post has to be the lowest peice of trash seen on D&G for a long time.

Pilots pay to get themselve qualified as pilots and not subsidise a major airline's training bill.

Ryanair contractors now pay for their hotels down-route as well as their recurrent simm, uniform etc etc. How many other occupations have to do that? Ryanair has a billion Euros in the bank (so they say), it's easy to see why.

[Johhny Utah]

Point0Five

I agree that there has to be some form of management within an airline; however, there seems to be an over abundance of managers who lack any real 'managerial skills' or leadership. This can be seen in the reliance on cutting costs as the sole method of increasing profits - surely managers are paid handsomely to come up ideas that are more innovative than simply slash and burn...

I'd suggest that many of the current problems afflicting our profession can be traced back to similar attitudes as the one that you have displayed in your recent posts. You seem as though you would be quite happy to 'sell out' others within your peer group to advantage yourself - even if it was to the detriment of your profession as a whole.

As for the Mardi Gras comment - playing the man, not the ball.....?

[morning mungrel]

"30 to 45, your time is coming"....... Surfside 6, can I have that on paper??? :hmm:

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Shagtastic:

No need to get all red faced on me because I differ in opinion to you. :rolleyes:

Anyway, I still think you should pay for your endorsement.

[Shagtastic]

Pass-a-frozo,

Sorry about that. Had my beer goggles on..

Still I don't think pilots should subsidise the training bill of their employer.

Before the likes of Ryanair it wasn't even considered by anyone trying for a jet job, yet now it is becomming the norm and you agree with it..why?

Charging for jet ratings and line training has become a money making propect for some European operators in addition to reducing thier cost base. You're right about not making money as a pilot.

PS. What's a frozo?

Shaggy

[Captain.Q]

Frozo...Frozen Orange Juice...aka Sunny Boys

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Shag:

No worries.. Nothing like Ppruning with beer :D

My real point is just that I don't think it is out of the question for an employer to ask a prospective employee to be qualified.

No doubt if people don't like the idea, they won't be able to get the staff.. if people do pay, so be it! :ok:

I'm all for free markets. Unfortunately though, if you are in the don't pay camp - you'll not get the job..

[Boney]

Frozo

You pay 50k for your training before you even start your first job. Then there is the Chieftain Ratings, 404 rating etc. etc, all the time working for less money than a cleaner.

Then you pay for training on a Saab size machine and then maybe 5 years later, a heavy jet.

And as you are doing all this, turbine and jet salaries are dropping.

Where does it end?

Do you suggest QF drivers pay for A380 ratings. When they are done, should they then fly for $20/hr because the "hours are gonna look good in the log book".

What a pathetic industry we all work in.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

It all ends when people won't work (as in won't apply for the job) for companies that offer those conditions. Freedom of choice.

[Animalclub]

To get a job (not just pilots') initially you have to have the necessary qualifications.

If your EMPLOYER THEN wants you to do another job, or handle different equipment, for which you require additional or different qualifications the EMPLOYER should foot the training bill.

The question then remains... If an employer can get employees from outside the company, with the qualifications required in handling this new equipment, should he/she be allowed to employ them? It saves the training costs, but it doesn't do much for company loyalty. Mind you, from what I read here, there isn't much company loyalty around these days.

[OBNO]

Pass a frozo says "Anyway, I still think you should pay for your endorsement."

SO Frozo Boy would you pay for your next endorsement?

Given that you have never been in the situation where you have had to pay one cent towards your flying training, from basic flying training to Operational conversion (courtesy of the AIR FORCE) you are hardly in a position to really comment about paying for endorsements are you. SO frozo come down off your soapbox and let the adults talk.

BTW a "Frozo" is a frozen meal (for reheating) supplied to RAAF crews as an inflight meal.

[Boney]

Just a thought ...

Current situation - it is great if you can get a job with a company that is on the move. For example, get a job with a Metro operator because they have just placed an order for EMB's with further options.

In 10 years time, we may be all looking to get jobs with companies going no where.

"Don't apply for them mate, I have heard they will be upgrading next year, so you put off having a family/buying a house/having a normal human life etc. as you will have to go to the bank yet again and extend aviation related expenses for another decade".

... could happen?