Lynx Down on SPTA

[CAC Runaway]

I heat that there is a Lynx Mk 7 that has made a forced landing on SPTA East with a possible Tail Rotor driveshaft failure but everyone is OK. Anyone know anymore?

[hyd3failure]

If the crew are ok then it wasn't a drive shaft failure. Possible a control failure. I have not herad anything yet but will listen out. Hope the guys aer ok though

[SilsoeSid]

hyd3failure;
If the crew are ok then it wasn't a drive shaft failure.
And how do you work that out? :confused:

SS

[skua]

BFBS is reporting that "the tail rotor snapped off".

Skua

[LXGB]

BBC News Link...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/wiltshire/4290145.stm

LXGB

[SilsoeSid]

BFBS is reporting that "the tail rotor snapped off".
BBCIt is understood the helicopter sustained some damage to its tail rotor blade.

well thats just about that covered then!:confused:

[Basher577]

Ah the "Wasteland widow maker" strikes again! Is that twice in a week?

I hope the lads are ok, might be worth going Apache don't you think?

[MReyn24050]

Basher 577 - "Ah the "Wasteland widow maker" strikes again! Is that twice in a week?"

Why do you not wait for the facts before making such a stupid irresponsible remark!

[SilsoeSid]

MReyn24050;

As no-one was injured, IMHO, there is nothing wrong with Basher577 s remark. The name "Wasteland widow maker" is a well known phrase for this aircraft.

No doubt we'll soon get the, "Otherwise Impeccable Safety Record", phrase mentioned.

Trust us, we know !!:sad: :ugh: :{

MReyn24050 and the like. For your interest, these are the facts;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3642068.stm

1989: Kenya crash kills nine crew from the Royal Navy
1998: Three servicemen killed during air tests in Bosnia
1999: Leicestershire crash kills three crew
2001: Two crew escape after crashing into the Arabian Sea
2002: Two perish when Lynx comes down off coast of US
2004: Navy crash in Antarctica seriously injures three people
2004 Crash in Czech Republic kills six soldiers
2004: Lynx, carrying four crew, crashes into the sea off the coast of Cornwall

2005 Bosnia no fatal
2005 SPTA no fatal (stc)

Not to mention NI, Germany and others?.

"Safety scare grounds Lynx helicopters"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/729554.stm

Not to mention ALL the other incidents and accident not reported \'outside\'.


Please don't come up with the old, 'til we know the full story'phrase. Look at the history where we do.

[wg13_dummy]

SS, seeing how you aren’t in the business anymore, the old adage of 'til we know the full story' does still stand. After all, we know certain persons copy and paste straight to the tabloids from this site and someone’s dumb or misplaced comment on their theories doesn’t help the situation. Probably wasting my breath here as no doubt a full Board of Inquiry will be run on line with all the 'experts' adding their ten pennies worth.

I fully expect you to do an in-depth dissection of my post, SS giving your opinions. Thanks, I’ve had enough of them for the time being.

So, til we know the full story etc, etc....

PS Glad they walked again.

[CAC Runaway]

Hyd3Fail;

If the crew are ok then it wasn't a drive shaft failure. Possible a control failure. I have not herad anything yet but will listen out. Hope the guys aer ok though
I bow to your obvious experience of tail rotor malfunctions you must be a test pilot or something :yuk: Knowing some people that have walked away from drive shaft failures i think you will find it can be survivable.

P.S I have seen the downed Lynx from this morning and it looks like they hit the ground pretty hard.

[Mosspigs]

SilsoeSid,

I am afraid I think your post is toss.

Whilst it is acknowledged that the Lynx has its faults, posting a list of crashes of which many were attributed to pilot error or had pilot error as a major factor waters down your argument.

Lets wait and see.

[MReyn24050]

Siloe Sid - "Trust us, we know !!"

Really, so you know what were the causes of the Lynx Flying accidents you listed? Design problemsl? My acquaintance with the Lynx dates back to 1978 when the first 6 operational Lynx AH Mk 1 landed arrived in Detmold BAOR to join 654 Sqn AAC. The aircraft in its various Marks has been in service for almost 30 years. Many of the accidents that have occurrred and caused fatalities have had nothing to do with design or mechanical failure.

My statement still stands wait for the BOI before making such damning statements.

[wg13_dummy]

I second that MReyn. You may see a trend to SS's posting. :ok:

[SilsoeSid]

MReyn24050,
Your acquaintance with the Lynx is greater than mine by 3 years, however have you flown them? You do not say.

Really, so you know what were the causes of the Lynx Flying accidents you listed? Design problemsl?

Kenya, door fell off. Hit tail rotor
Leicester, catastrophic engine failure.
Bosnia, tail rotor

2000? Germany. Tail rotor drive failure in hover. Two walked away! (WG-13 was around there I believe).

1980s, tail rotor!

Design problems. I think so. Any surprise no-one wanted to fly her.


WG-13,
Of course you are now stopping flying the Lynx of your own choice! After all those hard times you used to give the APS pilots. You also used to proudly show off your "Wastelands Crash Test Dummy" badge! :confused:

Didn't someone here, on the 'anti SS bandwagon', say in the past in reference to the Lynx;

"a 30 year old flawed design "? :hmm:

"All throb monster drivers know the short falls (long falls if your MSVRH is tonk!) of the cab, we can deal with them." :hmm:

"how many incident reports have you filled?!!!!!" :hmm:

Now, that's confidence inspiring.

In the Lynx Flight crewroom, everyone was eager to go flying !

http://www.dentonatd.com/dentonatd/images/dummygroup.jpg

[X-QUORK]

Don't forget the tie-bar failure Sept '94 in Germany, two fatalities - one of them a good mate of mine.

I'm not qualified to pass judgement on the Lynx, but sadly I've known many good blokes who are no longer with us after meeting their demise on the type. Only one of the incidents was a result of pilot error (the Ploce prang in '97).

That said, however, I don't doubt that the nature of military flying plays a part and I guess that's something everyone considers before signing the dotted line.

[SilsoeSid]

Back to MReyn24050s remark to Basher577, "Why do you not wait for the facts before making such a stupid irresponsible remark!", that started this war off ".

It was known at the time that there was no fatalities.

What are we going to have to "wait and see"? I should think that grapevines on this network should be considered to be 'fairly' reliable.

As there were no serious injuries, I think we should be allowed to speculate. After all, the BOI in the Germany 2000ish tr drive failure, initially seemed to be more concerned about the weight of a nav bag than the fact that the shaft had penetrated the tail boom skin.

We are all to aware of the effects that speculation can have in serious incidents, with NOK and friends waiting of news, and we respect this, but this is not one of these cases.

Reliable sources and witnesses at the scene have had a say, so what is wrong with a little informed speculation?

The history of the Lynx is not squeaky clean as we all know, so surely we can have a discussion on the beasts failures, which are highlighted once more with this incident, which we hope will be rectified with the Future Lynx.

She is a beast of a machine, in the nicest sense, and I always enjoyed flying her. but when she bites, you had better be ready for it. You knew that if nothing was going wrong, it was just about to.


http://www.geocities.com/pprunessilsoesid/maplefire.jpg

On my last Ex.

[hyd3failure]

Many of those flying incidents you have mentioed refer to the AAC Mk 7 and Mk9 which are very different to the Navy Mk 3 and Mk8 particularly with regards to Engineering standards and practices.

I think it is a bit early to call the AAC lynx the widow maker due to 2 accidents in a week when one of them was clearly aircrew error


1989: Kenya crash kills nine crew from the Royal Navy
1998: Three servicemen killed during air tests in Bosnia
1999: Leicestershire crash kills three crew
2001: Two crew escape after crashing into the Arabian Sea
2002: Two perish when Lynx comes down off coast of US
2004: Navy crash in Antarctica seriously injures three people
2004 Crash in Czech Republic kills six soldiers
2004: Lynx, carrying four crew, crashes into the sea off the coast of Cornwall

2005 Bosnia no fatal
2005 SPTA no fatal (stc)



Of all those 10 Accidents I can only see three which were a fault with the aircraft...and one of those was the engines (RR). The rest are aircrew error. This aircraft has been in front line service for 30 years. One flying accident every three years does not make a widow maker. The expected accident rate is one every 18 months and so using that, this aircraft is extremely safe.

[BTDTGTTShirt]

Boys, dont lets start a slagging match. BOI will throw enough dirt around if required. Most important thing is they all walked away - thank god.:ok:

[SilsoeSid]

The Wasteland Widow maker is a nickname.

Much like the B-26 Marauder and F-104 Starfighter, both called 'Widowmaker', not neccesarily because of the deaths they caused due to mechanical or design faults, but because of their handling characteristics and when things went wrong they were difficult to handle. What we would in this modern age call 'Pilot Error', if no other decisive fault was found.


hyd3failure
I think it is a bit early to call the AAC lynx the widow maker due to 2 accidents in a week when one of them was clearly aircrew error
Who's calling the shots now then! Any other gems you may have picked up from the BOI? :p Lets not speculate, until we have the full story. :p
One flying accident every three years does not make a widow maker. The expected accident rate is one every 18 months and so using that, this aircraft is extremely safe.
2004: Navy crash in Antarctica seriously injures three people
2004 Crash in Czech Republic kills six soldiers
2004: Lynx, carrying four crew, crashes into the sea off the coast of Cornwall
2005 Bosnia no fatal
2005 SPTA no fatal (stc)

So what would 5 accidents in that time period make it, still safe?

BTDTGTTShirt, (whatever on Earth that all stands for :ugh: ), Quite right, however some people just want to carry it on though don't they? ;)

[Archimedes]

Sid, Totally off-topic (forgive me), but BTDTGTTShirt -

Been
There
Done
That
Got
The
T-Shirt

Perhaps?

[wg13_dummy]

Maybe hyd and SS should start their own little thread? Could be fun to watch on a dull Thurs night if nothing else.:p :ok:

[tucumseh]

I’m sorry, but I don’t see the point in slagging someone for posting simple facts. Uninformed speculation, yes.

Hyd3 said;


“Many of those flying incidents you have mentioned refer to the AAC Mk 7 and Mk9 which are very different to the Navy Mk 3 and Mk8 particularly with regards to Engineering standards and practices”.

TRUE



”I think it is a bit early to call the AAC lynx the widow maker due to 2 accidents in a week when one of them was clearly aircrew error”

SENSIBLE, although I suppose you can call an aircraft what you want.



”1989: Kenya crash kills nine crew from the Royal Navy
1998: Three servicemen killed during air tests in Bosnia
1999: Leicestershire crash kills three crew
2001: Two crew escape after crashing into the Arabian Sea
2002: Two perish when Lynx comes down off coast of US
2004: Navy crash in Antarctica seriously injures three people
2004 Crash in Czech Republic kills six soldiers
2004: Lynx, carrying four crew, crashes into the sea off the coast of Cornwall

2005 Bosnia no fatal
2005 SPTA no fatal (stc)”

FACTUAL, to which I’d add that, from 25.2.82 – 10.3.88 the RN lost 6 from a fleet of 80+. Included in that was one on Coventry when she sunk, one destroyed on deck by bombing (Broadsword?), and one which went down with Atlantic Conveyor. Leaving 3 lost to what one would call “normal” incidents. All in all, a pretty good record. (I think 2 of these 6 weren’t Cat 5s, and were recovered).



“This aircraft has been in front line service for 30 years. One flying accident every three years does not make a widow maker. The expected accident rate is one every 18 months and so using that, this aircraft is extremely safe”.

TRUE, the only caveat I’d add is that the attrition rate is measured against fleet flying hours. Hyd3 is spot on if the fleet flies expected hours. I recall a 30% reduction being ordered to the anticipated attrition because of (RN) Lynx safety record (articulated above). It is disingenuous to highlight a surge in incidents without also stating the fleet flying hours during that period and the conditions under which they were operating.


So what’s the problem with Hyd3’s post? Come on, just be glad the crews got out.

[SilsoeSid]

"Maybe hyd and SS should start their own little thread? Could be fun to watch on a dull Thurs night if nothing else."
Maybe thats a good idea wg13_dummy, but I think even I would tire of going around in circles on this subject yet again, even without the aid of a dodgy TR system. ;)

Mmmm, wg13_dummy;

WG-13 (http://www.whl.co.uk/history_wg13_lynx.html) (Lynx) dummy (http://www.mannequin-man.com/crash%20test%20dummy.html) (crash test) ?

As your name would suggest, perhaps my freind you are more onside that you would like us all to believe. ;) :)
____________________________________________________

tucumseh;

In respect, I shall regard you as a different person than Hyd3. :p

When he says,
“Many of those flying incidents you have mentioned refer to the AAC Mk 7 and Mk9 which are very different to the Navy Mk 3 and Mk8 particularly with regards to Engineering standards and practices”,
would he like to enlighten us? Is there a flaw he would like to tell us about in the Army "Engineering standards and practices", that he knows about? Seems quite an accusation.
I'm sure we would all like to hear his claims! (obviously with your support.)


How can you call s'ensible' a claim that Hyd3 knows that this case is "clearly aircrew error"? What happened to the call of wait for the results of the board?


Yes of course we are all glad the crew(s) are safe.

Have a nice day everyone and wrap up warm.:D

SS

[northernmonkey]

From that list wasn't there another lynx crash in Germany...

Andy & Les?

Tie bars?

[strek]

Hyd 3

Your Quote:

----------------
“Many of those flying incidents you have mentioned refer to the AAC Mk 7 and Mk9 which are very different to the Navy Mk 3 and Mk8 particularly with regards to Engineering standards and practices”
----------------

Please can you enlighten the forum on what possible basis you have to make this statement.

True the Army does things differently, but just because people understand the S & P's in the RN Fleet, that does not by itself make the quality of engineering or airworthiness any higher.

Strek

:*

[miles magistrate]

One is always reluctant to enter this sort of pi**ing contest but, what the hell. Firstly, please do not forget the 1983 accident in the Falklands which saw two good friends killed when their Lynx crashed at night of West Falklands.

Secondly do not forget that during that particular tour we had to fly Lynx MK 5 (yes MK5 which was known as the GTI - i.e. MK 1 with uprated engines) we often flew with one engine pre upgrade and one post so we had 2 different eng limits on the same airframe.

Finally we had to fly with manual yaw pedal control, why did we do this? Because Wastelands anticipated the Tail rotor gearboxs were liable to fail if hyd power was connected, suffice to say in the Falklands manual pedals and normal cyclic and collective combined with strong winds whilst landing on top of mountains could be exciting.

Incidently the SPTA crash was a heavy landing following a downwind hover.

Time to retire quickly.

MM

[hyd3failure]

Good point about the Mk5...I'd forgotten about those babies...

Once had the opportunity to fly a Mk7 in Belize and following the walkround it was clear that the TRS had not been completed. The aircraft was covered in oil from the last sortie, the windscreen was dirty and so I politely declined the sortie.

But one of the funniest moments this week must have been the Sky news reporter standing on a hillside in Bosnia surrounded by bits of a Lynx and reporting that "it is rumoured that the aircrew flew the aircraft into a series of wires although the MOD are refusing to comment" at this, the camera panned to the main body of the wreckage and focused in on 3 sets of very large wires which lay over the wreckage... !!!!!
Hmmmmmm, bit of a tricky one for the BOI me thinnks

[miles magistrate]

Almost as good as the Sky reporter on the steps of MoD following the Lynx Mk9 Fatal in the Czech Republic last year, again talking about wirestrikes and said:

"Army Lynx are fitted with radar but unfortunately the radar system cannot see wires"

I totally despair.

[tucumseh]

Miles

"Army Lynx are fitted with radar but unfortunately the radar system cannot see wires"


Very good! I recall in ‘85 the RAF proposed a development programme for a (Laser) device to detect wires xx cms thick at xx kms, to be integrated with, and displayed on, the HUD. RSRE promptly wheeled out a working device halving the thickness at double the range. Was it ever bought?

[miles magistrate]

Laser wire detectors! You're having a laugh. It would be a giant technical step forward just to have wire cutters, but that's another story and another thread!!

MM

[MReyn24050]

The following is an extract of information from Defence Analytical Services Agency (DASA) and can be found at http://www.dasa.mod.uk/natstats/natstats.html which puts the Lynx safety record in perspective.

Number of aircraft Lost or damaged beyond economical repair in Air Accidents up to Dec 2003

Royal Navy

Lynx (All Marks) From 1980 15 Rate per 10,000 flying hours 0.43
Sea King (All Marks) From 1969 47 Rate per 10,000 flying hours 0.50
Sea Harrier From 1979 29 Rate per 10,000 flying hours 2.16

Army
Lynx (All Marks) From 1977 27 Rate per 10,000 flying hours 0.43
Gazelle From 1973 63 Rate per 10,000 flying hours 0.44

RAF
Tornado GR1 & GR4 From 1980 46 Rate per 10,000 flying hours 0.63

It can be seen that the accident rate is no worse than Sea King or Gazelle.

[hyd3failure]

I heard a buzz that the Lynx which had been caught flying down "wire Valley" this week was the only one on the squadron which is NOT fitted with wire cutters !!! dunno if there is any truth in that but if it is then that would truly be sods law

[strek]

Hyd3

-----------------
Once had the opportunity to fly a Mk7 in Belize and following the walkround it was clear that the TRS had not been completed. The aircraft was covered in oil from the last sortie, the windscreen was dirty and so I politely declined the sortie.
-----------------

2 things:

i) Army aircraft do not have a TRS
ii) Windows and windscreen cleaning is the responsibility of the aircrew (iaw AP100N).

Strek

[hyd3failure]

Exactly...that was my point.... engineering S&P's in the AAC differ significantly than in the RN.

[engineer(retard)]

Miles

Tcu has not been at the wacky baccy, laser detectors have been looked at seriously for a while:

http://ctilidar.com/applications/obstacle_detection.htm

Regards

retard

[miles magistrate]

Thanks Tcu and Engineer - I obviously did not express myself to well. I understand very well that research was conducted using Lasers to detect wires - in fact I have spent some time at F'Boro discussing this in the past, but the point I am trying to make (without to much success) is that despite the millions spent on ARP by MoD we very rarely see any cutting edge technology (please excuse pun here!!) in service at the front line. We all know that wire cutters could help to save life but the Lords and Masters still refuse to fit them. Surely wire cutters would be a fraction of the cost to fit retrospectively, compared to some of the more fanciful research such as laser detectors that the then DERA and now QQ participate in.



MM

PS Hyd 3 I think you must be on the Weird stuff - no Lynx to my knowledge has cutters. Surely you are not serious.

[ranger703]

I heard a buzz that the Lynx which had been caught flying down "wire Valley" this week was the only one on the squadron which is NOT fitted with wire cutters !!! dunno if there is any truth in that but if it is then that would truly be sods law

Sorry!! Which Lynx have wire cutters?? In fact what Britmil helos in general have wire-cutters,have seen some RAF Merlins with cutters but not RN and I believe maybe Apache has?? If there is another thread on this matter please advise.

[engineer(retard)]

Miles

Common sense says that you are right, but I think research and procurement are different budgets now. Maybe the boys from town can give a better response?

Regards

Retard

[miles magistrate]

Engineer you are right. Not only have the DECs money to spend on ARP but also FBG at Shabby Wood as well as all the IPTs. In the areas I know and work in, it all amounts to many many millions!!

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Miles,

I would'nt put too much stock in the ramblings of H3F as you are not the first, and I suspect not the last, to be given the benifit of his vast "experiance":rolleyes:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[tucumseh]

Miles

I believe you are largely correct. FBG manage what are now called "Outputs" (#6 is the important one, I think) and I believe the theory is that, now it is managed at ABW, the interested IPTs can take the next logical step and apply the science. The problem before, when it was managed in London, was that ARP had no process for telling anyone what they'd done. A project would subsequently have a bright idea, and pay a second time for the same research. Often, I had to rely on an honest contractor to admit the work had already been done.

Having said all that, the link between IPTs and FBG is the Requirement Manager. The last time I tried to make a bid for research through my RqM, he hadn't a clue what I was talking about, thought I was wasting his time, didn't pass the bid on to FBG, and the front line suffered.

There may be millions, but if that scenario is repeated too often they may not actually be spending it!

[BEagle]

A most impressive TLA count in that last post, tucumseh, but WTF do they all mean?

[tucumseh]

Beagle

ABW – Abbey Wood. A small railway station in north Bristol, adjacent to a rather nice, but largely unused, MoD tennis court. Nearby is a motley collection of government buildings housing lots of support staff and, allegedly, one or two minions who buy military kit.

FBG – Future Business Group. A Group of aforesaid support staff who conduct their Business by looking to the Future. In other words, they have their eye on the(ir) balls.

IPT – Integrated Project Teams. Residing within these buildings, they are usually disparate individuals, with little morale or team spirit, and occasionally manage projects in between compiling rafts of useless “returns” for aforesaid support staff. They are the successors to truly integrated project teams, previously known as MoD(PE).

RqM – Requirement Managers. A collection of square pegs in round holes, paid lots to do a job previously carried out by civil servants at two grades lower. As few can tell you what they are meant to do, it would be wrong of me to speculate, although I understand most IPTs have thriving entertainment committees.

I hope this is illuminating!

[SilsoeSid]

Having just flicked through the latest AAC Newsletter at all the Ah photos, there does appear to be some form of wire cutter fitted.

The lower is fitted slightly forward of the cannon mount and the upper sits above the pilots head.

They do seem rather small, but are at least there, although you have to do some pretty accurate flying in order to catch it just right and not try and use the cannon, wheels or MR mast as the cutter. :ugh:

http://www.army.mod.uk/img/aac/Photo44.jpg

http://www.army.mod.uk/img/aac/Photo1.jpg

Pics from UK Attack Helicopter Photography Gallery
(http://www.army.mod.uk/aht/photos.htm)

As far as I am aware these are the only AAC a/c fitted with what appear to be wirecutters.

[BTDTGTTShirt]

Archimedes - Guess you have me bang to rights. Too many big words - couldnt spell them all :O
SiloeSid Thanks for your support:D
ALL Lets not get into a pi$$ing contest with each other. BOI's tend to have bigger dicks than most and are able to put most fires out. - Untill that tw&t Wr&££on gets hold of them that is. Then all is fair in love and war.

[ranger703]

Just checked out some pics and it appears that other than Apache, the RAF Merlin is the only Britmil helo equipped with wire cutters,for some unknown reason the RN version is not!

[ChristopherRobin]

SS - actually the Apache has more wire-cutters than that. No matter where a wire hits the front of the aircraft it will be directed into one of a number of wirecutters thus ensuring that freedom reigns!

[SilsoeSid]

Thanks for that ChristopherRobin, a little more information may have been nice.

I take it you'll be thinking of the Wire Strike Protection System (WSPS).
Made up of eleven deflectors and six cutter assemblies, the WSPS either steers the wires away from the aircraft, or guides them to the cutters. Deflectors are located around the TADS/PNVS, wiper assemblies, canopy, and the tail wheel. Wire cutters located between the TADS and PNVS turrets, the lower fuselage in front of the chain gun, on each leg of the main gear, and on the upper fuselage just forward of the rotor shaft.

The question now is, how thick a cable can you get away with flying through?

Have a good weekend y'all. :ok:

SS

[crossbows]

wow, that WSPS soubnds good...but does t cost a fortune? It would have to be balanced against the cost of repairing an aircarft or declaring it Cat5...

[totalwar]

So is the Lynx really a widow maker...? is it safe to fly? would you get in one?

[owe ver chute]

SilsoeSid.

Why don't you let the world know the wire thickness the Apache WSPS can cut? That way the nice people around the world, who happen to love Apache pilots, can make sure that they exceed that thickness when planning to catch one.

Some people don't know when to shut up.
Please don't tell me its on the open forum and can be picked up anywhere, it won't wash.

[wg13_dummy]

So is the Lynx really a widow maker...? is it safe to fly? would you get in one?

IMHO, no it's not. A widow maker that is. I've been flying it for quite a long time and if I or all my muckers didn't consider it to be safe, we wouldn’t go near it. Unfortunately, some who thrive on 'shock horror' headlines like to push the issue that it is unsafe. These people generally do not know what they are talking about or jump on the media bandwagon.
As has been mentioned on this post and countless others before, its record is actually very good considering it's time in service, role and amount of hours it's flown. I'm pretty sure there are far more 'unsafe' aircraft out there than the Lynx.
It would be interesting to hear what the experience or knowledge of certain posters are with the aircraft as opposed to finding 'Key Lynx Crashes' on news websites then posting them as an unbalanced 'fact' of the cab being a widow maker. Statistics are only of any relevance if they are put into a balanced context.

Mmmm, wg13_dummy;
WG-13 (Lynx) dummy (crash test)
As your name would suggest, perhaps my freind you are more onside that you would like us all to believe.?

Well, glad you’ve wrapped that one up then SS! (Psst, not all user names are literal you know) My log books would suggest I am not ‘onside’. And I never owned one of the infamous Wastelands crash test dummy badges either. Must have me mixed up with someone else.

It would be nice if not a little boring if people posted all the flying hours and dates that the Lynx flew without fault since it came into service.....but that’s not sensational enough I suppose.:rolleyes:

[VP959]

Well said WG, the Lynx is indeed pretty much as safe as any other military helo, as the DASA stats clearly show.

I've looked at just about every Lynx accident over the years, and like most A/C accidents, the majority are human factors related, rather than airframe airworthiness or technical problems. I know that an argument can be made that human factors has a technical HMI component, but we have to accept that we are dealing with a cab designed back in the 1960's, so it simply isn't going to be as ergonomically acceptable as a modern A/C.

Let's not forget that Lynx is probably one of the most agile and maneuverable small cabs we've ever had, and as a consequence gets used in environments where other cabs simply wouldn't be able to cut it. It's hardly surprising, under these circumstances, that it has a higher than average incidence of CFIT accidents (including wire strikes).

Speculation about accidents is never clever, either from the perspective of the investigators trying to piece together unbiased reports or from that of the morale of crews and their next of kin. Quite why some feel the need to cause unecessary worry by rampant sensationalism is beyond me, especially when they purport to have some sense of allegiance to those whom they either serve with or have served with.

Suffice to say that the early evidence from the latest Mk7 accident does not seem to point to an aircraft technical problem. Neither was the wire strike accident earlier in the week. Let's just be thankful that both crews walked away without serious injury, and let the investigators get on and do their job.

VP

[SilsoeSid]

owe ver chute; Why don't you let the world know the wire thickness the Apache WSPS can cut? That way the nice people around the world, who happen to love Apache pilots, can make sure that they exceed that thickness when planning to catch one.
Now that I have picked myself off the floor with the picture in my mind of those 'nice people' holding up poles with a wire between in order to catch an Apache, (maybe the infamous AAC moving goalposts ;) ),perhaps I can reply.

Do you honestly think that these people don't haven't minds of their own to be able to do what they do?

Please don't tell me its on the open forum and can be picked up anywhere, it won't wash.

If you can find out how to build a nuclear weapon on the web in the public domain, I'm sure the thickness of cable an apache can cut through is low down in the search history, and a darned site less effective as a weapon against the west!

Next week, Pooh will be showing us how to catch an attack helicopter. :p

http://moviemaniac11.tripod.com/Pooh/net.gif

Please print out and colour in the uniform of the 'nice person' of your choice. :hmm:

wg13_dummy;

I've obviously mixed you up with someone else, :suspect: Sorry.

And of course, if the SPTA incident didn't happen, we wouldn't be talking about this subject. So sensational stories do have their effectiveness.

Luckily no-one was injured here, but they have been in the past.

This has been brought up on the site of the 18th plural, hasn't it? So no need to re-cover retro fitting costs etc here. :ooh:

over;Some people don't know when to shut up.
No they don't do they? :ok: ;)

[wg13_dummy]

Dont understand your logic SS??

And of course, if the SPTA incident didn't happen, we wouldn't be talking about this subject. So sensational stories do have their effectiveness.

Why drag up the 'facts' on page one of this thread? Are you suggesting the cab is dangerous to fly due to lack of maintainance/flawed design or because the crews cant handle the aircraft correctly?

Why don't you comment each time there is a Tornado/Harrier/Jag down thread?

I am rather confused with regard to your stance on the subject of the safety of the Lynx. Are you concerned for the safety of the crews and highlighting the fact to the open world or chipping in for the sake of argument?

I dunno!?!

[MReyn24050]

Well come on SS comment on the stats produced by DASA which I highlighted recently. Which shows that the Lynx is has a good if not better safety record than Gazelle or Sea King. No doubt you will put a spin on the facts. Ever thought of applying for Alister Cambells job?

[VP959]

More to the point, why doesn't SS first off check the facts about this accident (something he is anally retentive about most of the time with others)?

Whilst your at the checking of facts thing, why not go through that list of Lynx accidents you've posted and highlight how many were aircraft failings? To save you some trouble, I can confirm that well over half of them of them were not caused by aircraft technical faults.

As I've intimated on here before, SS, you are a has-been low achiever who has a massive chip on his shoulder. In your case this manifests itself as a need to seek attention on groups such as this (and the other one) to boost your own need to feel important.

Thankfully some of us don't have the same need, so can contribute here with a genuine desire to see common sense prevail.

VP

[SilsoeSid]

MReyn24050;
Well come on SS comment on the stats produced by DASA which I highlighted recently. Of course I cannot argue with the stats you highlight, but may I suggest that you try and go to your nearest AAC Lynx/Gazelle unit and compare the size of Gazelle/Lynx incident signal folders!

Mmmmm, statistics.:suspect:


Dummy;Why drag up the 'facts' on page one of this thread? Are you suggesting the cab is dangerous to fly due to lack of maintainance/flawed design or because the crews cant handle the aircraft correctly?
Because Mreyn wanted the facts before comment.

I think you'll find it was hyd3failure who questioned maintainance standards when he said, "...AAC Mk 7 and Mk9 which are very different to the Navy Mk 3 and Mk8 particularly with regards to Engineering standards and practices."

He has been asked to verify what he means by this, but no reply :confused:
Of course I'm not questioning handling abilities, but 'Lynx Bites'. :ouch:
Why don't you comment each time there is a Tornado/Harrier/Jag down thread? Mmmm, because I have never flown any one of them perhaps. :=

Yes I am concerned about safety, as you should be and as for 'chipping in for the sake of an argument'.......We know each other right. :ok:

VP959;As I've intimated on here before, SS, you are a has-been low achiever who has a massive chip on his shoulder. In your case this manifests itself as a need to seek attention on groups such as this (and the other one) to boost your own need to feel important.
I think you may be factually incorrect on that one. If you really do know me as you think you do, you will realise this.? As I have told you before, perhaps it stems from your own insecurity and envy of others.
If in doubt, resort to personal insults eh!Thankfully some of us don't have the same need, so can contribute here with a genuine desire to see common sense prevail. As you last post shows us I suppose!


Now, back to wirecutters, which is where the thread was going or was that not a provocative enough subject :confused: :{

Back on the rails,

I\'m sure ir\'s easier to ambush an AH with a \'MANPAD\' than a length of HD wire held between 2 poles.
Then again if the poles weren\'t secure enough the cutters wouldn\'t cut it, which could just work. :8


But then again, we can always go back to the anti SS bandwagon!! Well, it is Friday night and the glass of cider has been consumed.

Having your own opinion doesn't hurt!

[wg13_dummy]

I'll drop down to the SS way of dissecting the posts;

Of course I cannot argue with the stats you highlight, but may I suggest that you try and go to your nearest AAC Lynx/Gazelle unit and compare the size of Gazelle/Lynx incident signal folders!

Apples and Bananas. The Gazelle has approx 6 moving parts (two of those being the bloke in the right hand seat!). If you had some time on the cab, you would surely know that the majority of those signals from the Lynx regard AFCS niggles. Not exactly a show stopper as you may know).

I think you'll find it was hyd3failure who questioned maintenancestandards when he said.....

But it was you, SS, who yet again posted the 'conclusive evidence to the Lynx widow making properties' by posting the full and unequivocal list of Lynx accidents (from a media source!?!).

Of course I'm not questioning handling abilities, but 'Lynx Bites'.

But the list of accidents posted by you included such mishandling occurrences without a clarifying caveat? Point to fit your argument that the cab is unsafe? Sensationalising possibly?

Mmmm, because I have never flown any one of them perhaps.

What makes you such an authority on the Lynx? Have you been a 'crash test dummy' via Lynx? I.e., crashed. The comparison is similar. Knowledge dispels fear.

Yes I am concerned about safety, as you should be and as for 'chipping in for the sake of an argument'.......We know each other right.

I shall ask again, in what regard are you concerned about safety with the Lynx? Design, maint or lack of handling skills by crews? We do know each other and I am quite disappointed as I never saw this particular side of you.

Now, back to wirecutters, which is where the thread was going or was that not a provocative enough subject

I'm sure you can use google to find all the answers you need on the subject. Failing that, pop up to EGXD and ask the blokes who may want to make you a brew. If I were you, I wouldn’t hold your breath for too long though mate. Life may be brighter on the outside but its still dark and cosy on the inside.:ok:

I shall add an edit as SS just has!:rolleyes:

But then again, we can always go back to the anti SS bandwagon!! Well, it is Friday night and the glass of cider has been consumed.

I dont think its a campaign of anti SS. Its just that your posts are a bit 'different' in a way that Johnathan King had 'different' ideas. We know whats right, they know whats right, its a shame he didnt see it the same way!:rolleyes: (banter, banter, banter).

Additional edit.
I'm sure ir's easier to ambush an AH with a 'MANPAD' than a length of HD wire held between 2 poles.

SS, can you find the details on t'internet regarding design criteria of thickness of wires that AH can cut? If not, then there is prob a reason for it. FOI is a good thing but sometimes it aint.:ok:

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

SS,

I really do love your style:ok: You've got Crash test, Swerve and VPL wriggling quite nicely:p ....maybe it's time to reel them in or simply cut them loose. Whatever keep posting as it makes great reading:ok:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[wg13_dummy]

Always_broken, you would say that of course!!:rolleyes:

Because you are such a pillar to the pprune community too!:ok:

Every site needs the balance! Long may it continue.

[SilsoeSid]

WG,

Well, I think the Jonathan King comment was totally uncalled for and well below the belt even for you. :(

It seems that SS has a following of a few who have to pop up with the same anti-SS comments as usual. Find a thread with SS on and there they will be, with only a few exceptions. I am flattered at the following.

To correct you once more, it was on page 2 where Hyd3 cast doubt on Army Engineering standards and practices and this matter wasn't in question before his post.

No I haven't crashed a Lynx. Engine failures, low engine oil press, the AFCS land ASP one, a few minor incidents, but not crashed, Have you?

Which side of me did you not see? You know me well enough to make harsh comment, but then say you didn't see a particular side of me. :confused:

Like VP959, I think it it you that has a chip on the old shoulder for some reason. Was it the Austria course that got to you or something else that happened before we were posted to the same location once more, albeit different Squadrons, where we hardly met up?

I'll give you the results of my future brew up at EGXD, which in fact is happening soon. Believe it or not, there are a lot of people out there who don't come into pprune and within those that do, many don't take things to heart as you seem to. If we were talking in the crewroom there would be no threats the like of, 'I'll get you'. from anyone. People, sensible people, may simply walk away from the discussion. Others hanker for the argument and stay, don't we. :ok:

How much time do I need on the cab to be an expert such as yourself?
Yes you may have more Lynx hours than I, but the Wallop circuit isn't exactly the harshest of environmrents in which to fly is it. :E

Maximum diameter of wire tested with remotely controlled and/or tethered rotorcraft to asess effectiveness of the WSPS, is out there. :\
NASA have a publication, "A History of Full-Scale Aircraft and Rotorcraft Crash Testing", which includes the WSPS qualification tests.


Anyway, when are you popping in for a brew/lunch?

Enjoy your Gazelle conversion! :p TQ, Nc, T4, CWP.


For the rest of the gentlemen interested in the subject, you may like to read this.

"Contrary to popular belief, pilots involved in wire-strike incidents are not primarily young and inexperienced; the average wire-strike pilot is 40 years old with 2,300 hr of experience and 14 percent of wire-strike incidents occurred with pilots having more than 10,000 flight hours. Eighty-six percent of wire strikes occur in clear weather with high visibility, and approximately half occur in rural areas. A full 40 percent of pilots involved in wire strikes knew the wires were there.

Helicopter pilots may find a little comfort in knowing that wire strikes are not predominantly a rotorcraft problem; approximately 80 percent of wire strikes occur with fixed-wing aircraft. Given the devastating nature of wire strikes, however, Feerst said they are a danger of that every pilot should be more aware of. "


Night All.
:)

[wg13_dummy]

Well, I think the Jonathan King comment was totally uncalled for and well below the belt even for you.

I did qualify it with 'banter'. Do our views of banter differ?

I do not feel the need to go down the 'anti SS' route. I think I comment/post on what I see, not as you suggest, a campaign against you mate.

I commented on your broadbrush post on the collection of 'media' crashes. Some due to tech failure, some due to sloppy link interface.

No I haven't crashed a Lynx. Engine failures, low engine oil press, the AFCS land ASP one, a few minor incidents, but not crashed, Have you?

Well, thats the nature of flying a fairly complex machine, spice of life etc. Did you choose to fly it or were you 'pushed'? Point is, the vocal content of condemning the machine outways the reasons for doing so.

Which side of me did you not see? You know me well enough to make harsh comment, but then say you didn't see a particular side of me.

I dont believe it was harsh. I stated 'We do know each other and I am quite disappointed as I never saw this particular side of you.'
I choose not to discuss personal matters on a public forum. If I choose to, I will PM you. I'm just countering your online 'opinions'.

I'm not going to justify this comment;
I think it it you that has a chip on the old shoulder for some reason. Was it the Austria course that got to you or something else that happened before we were posted to the same location once more, albeit different Squadrons, where we hardly met up?
If I have a prob with you personally, I'll PM you the fact. If I have a prob with what you post online, I'll post it online. I feel it is you who has hit below the belt.

How much time do I need on the cab to be an expert such as yourself? Yes you may have more Lynx hours than I, but the Wallop circuit isn't exactly the harshest of environmrents in which to fly is it.

Now whos getting personal? FYI, having had a quick browse through my log books, I have concluded that I have completed approx 300 hours in the 'Wallop circuit' (well teaching the Lynx anyway, I believe that would be considered 'expert') out of a few thousand hours on type (several times operational). Are my posts not relevant concerning Lynx in your presence?

Anyway, when are you popping in for a brew/lunch?

I'll take a rain cheque on that one for now mate.:ok:

And it's a refresher BTW!:8

As I said previously, if you know the information regarding AH wire cutting capabilities, why ask? If you dont, dont!

Your serve mate. (Take it away from personal too mate, it doesnt do your cause much IMHO).

[SilsoeSid]

WG,

Mmm, our banter views must have a different threshold.
Did you choose to fly it or were you 'pushed'? There is in fact a story behind that involving a certain Squadrons return to UK.
However as things have turned out, the most useful course I ever did, obviously apart from the APC.
Are my posts not relevant concerning Lynx in your presence? A ridiculous thing to say. Do you not think I know your experience on the Lynx.

A rain check on the brew? You surprise me. :{

I asked about the wire cutter info to get a discussion going, However we seem to have turned this thread into a WG-13 / SS chat forum, for all to see.

I'm not playing anymore along this line. I'm off to polish my visor or brasso my 'pig tail' and it's my turn to make the brews.

ATB
SS



p.s. Are we still mates in real life? :(

[wg13_dummy]

You started it!!

I would truly like to hope that your online persona is not as I knew you. I'm having trouble though.

Do you not think I know your experience on the Lynx.

Why quip about 'the Wallop cct'?:ok:

So, did you choose to fly Lynx?:confused:

My online persona can equal yours mate. It's just a case of how far you wish to go. Sorry if I cant raise my level of blinkered race horse to yours pal.

[SilsoeSid]

I think the persona feeling is mutual. Although your vocabulary seems to have widened. := (Bag of $hite) :)

Wallop cct, banter :\ (It's that difference of severity thing)So, did you choose to fly Lynx? Only if I wanted to move my family back to the UK after being in theatre for 4 months. With the 'Premier Squadron' moving back to UK leaving no Gazelles in GT, we were all given a choice. Postings wherever or stay and convert. At the time of descision, we had just moved quarters for the 2nd time in that 4 months.

You did ask.

Not a matter of being pushed or jumping, but standing on the gangplank and it slowly being pulled on board.

Put the violins away folks, because as I said previously, as things have turned out, the most useful course I ever did, obviously apart from the APC.


Do we have any more info on the origin of this thread?

[wg13_dummy]

So, not exactly a volunteer in the precise sense of the word then SS? Would that answer certain questions to your opinion of the cab as seen on this and a few other threads? How come other chaps who have flown the cab for many a year with a considerably larger amount of time than you or me not voiced their concerns? (There are rather alot of ex Mk1 and Mk 7 types who post regularly on here too as you will no doubt know).

With regard to the origin of this thread, the answer is yes. But one would not like to say on this meduim.:ok:

[SilsoeSid]

Perhaps that may well have a bearing on things, I'd like to think not. Then again I'm not a Pschycologist. However, I have always had time to listen to the views of others, especially from those with more experience on the type than I, whilst I was learning to operate her.How come other chaps who have flown the cab for many a year with a considerably larger amount of time than you or me not voiced their concerns? Maybe because they are grown up enough not to get dragged into a discussion like this. :ooh: (There are rather alot of ex Mk1 and Mk 7 types who post regularly on here too as you will no doubt know). And I wager a lot who don't! :p

As I said before, AGAIN, "Believe it or not, there are a lot of people out there who don't come into pprune and within those that do, many don't take things to heart as you seem to."

I respect your decision not relase any further information until the BOI has released its results.

[Champagne Anyone?]

And they allow people like SS in the millitary? God help us thats all I can say. What a superb advert for the so called professionals he is! I remember behaviour such as his in the school playground.

I do find it funny how the accident/incident in a Lynx thread has been hijacked by sid and the majority of what he has posted has nothing to do with the subject matter at all.

I only view the thread to see if there is anything constructive come out post incident with regards to the aircrews well being, not to listen to schoolboy insults being thrown back and fourth.

Why sid doesnt start his own thread on how much more he knows than everyone else and why only his opinion counts beats me. Maybe its because no one will want to view it knowing who the originator of the thread is.

[SilsoeSid]

Champagne Anyone?;

Don't take everything so seriously.I do find it funny how the accident/incident in a Lynx thread has been hijacked by sid and the majority of what he has posted has nothing to do with the subject matter at all. Well that wasn't the case before owe ver chute started chipping in on the last page and then wg13 carried it on, so have a go at them aswell please. :{

I don't know much more than everyone else, I have an opinion, so do you. Why can't I express mine without you ranting like that.?

So SilsoeSid is now also CAC Runaway?
How many people can I possibly be?
In fact why don\'t you accuse me of a split personality and say that I am wg-13 dummy aswell? http://www.soccerhooligan.com/forums/html/emoticons/graywanker.gif

p.s. I only had to post this because you called for it!

[wg13_dummy]

So SilsoeSid is now also CAC Runaway?
How many people can I possibly be?
In fact why don't you accuse me of a split personality and say that I am wg-13 dummy aswell?

No chance of that SS. I'm sure the masses will see the obvious difference!

Wow, SS has hijacked this thread and I failed to see it!

Back to the action. SPTA Lynx crash.....
At this time, the fleet has not been grounded. The crew are safe and well. Fact of life in this job, it may at times be hazardess. Moving on......

[SilsoeSid]

Moving on....

If you are at all interested...... And no I don't think there is a 'security issue' in this.


The capability of the WSPSâ to protect against damage due to a wire strike has been demonstrated by Bristol Aerospace Limited through extensive ground tests using a truck–mounted helicopter fuselage and various wires and cables, including a single span 10M (10,000lbs. minimum breaking strength) cable and a combination of a 10M and a polyethylene shielded communications cable (100 pair, 24 gauge insulated copper wire). These tests were conducted at various speeds up to 60 miles per hour.

The effectiveness of the WSPSâ to protect helicopters against wire strike damage involving wires and cables commonly used in the North American rural environment was verified by the U.S. Army through pendulum–swing tests conducted at the NASA Impact Dynamic Test Facility at Langley, Virginia. Tests against a single span of an 11,000 lb. minimum breaking strength steel cable were conducted using the OH–58A, UH–1, OH–6A, AH–1S, UH–60, and AH–64 helicopters. Swing tests against multiple spans of electrical and communications cables with combined strength in excess of 23,000 lbs were conducted using the OH–58A helicopter. These tests were conducted with the helicopter in a horizontal position at time of cable impact. The test results for the OH–58A are presented in U.S. Army Applied technology laboratory report No. USAAVRADCOM–TM–80–D–7, entitled “Investigation of Helicopter Wire Strike Protection Concepts”, dated June 1980.

The effectiveness of the WSPSâ to protect helicopters against wire strikes involving wires commonly used in the European rural environment was verified by Aerospatiale helicopter division through ground wire strike tests conducted at the French Army CEV/Istres test facility. A truck mounted, WSPSâ equipped Gazelle helicopter was driven into three spans of Aster 147 electrical cables (.625” diameter, 19 strand aluminum electrical conductor) with combined tensile strength of 32,100 lbs. The test results are documented in Aerospatiale report 341A.06.2479.JdG, dated 1 October 1986.

Flight tests are conducted to determine the effect on aircraft handling characteristics and radio disturbances, etc., by various military and civilian authorities on WSPSâ equipped helicopters for the purpose of product certification. No in–flight wire strike tests to verify the system capability have been conducted.




Any volunteers?
Go on Champers, suggest SS!!

[CAC Runaway]

Flight tests are conducted to determine the effect on aircraft handling characteristics and radio disturbances, etc., by various military and civilian authorities on WSPSâ equipped helicopters for the purpose of product certification. No in–flight wire strike tests to verify the system capability have been conducted.




Any volunteers?

I think you need a mad Test Pilot for that one... anyone know any? :\

It's funny how this thread has degenerated into a slagging match. I, for one, still fly the mighty five ton love truck and have no worries, when strapping in, that i won't be coming back. The aircraft is an old and complex beast that needs to be treated with the respect it deserves.... but so do all old complex twins. I still enjoy every minute in the Lynx but maybe i don't have the time on it to be too worried yet :ooh:

Anyway enough about me.....

fight fight fight :ouch:

[Governormalfunction]

Test pilot....is that for Mission Certain Death??
I know someone......

[totalwar]

Would that be "Operation Certain Death" ???? which I seem to recall was an operation which could not have taken place without the trusty Lynx.

As for Hyd3's comments regarding S&P's

the AAC Mk 7 and Mk9 which are very different to the Navy Mk 3 and Mk8 particularly with regards to Engineering standards and practices

That is not criticising the Navies Engineering S&P's at all. All he is sayiong is that the AAC and Navy have different S&P's

[Theworldsbestheli]

Well there are lynx fitted with wire strike protection. Similair design to the Apache.

3 seperate positions on the aircraft. one just in front the nose wheel, one on top of the nose (above the pitot tube) and one on the top of the control tunnel ontop of the canopy.

This is fitted to the new mk120 Omani lynx as standard. Out of interest they also have a HUD fitted. The mk120 is the most advanced lynx ever made.

All those crashes listed earlier all seam to be AAC and RN, how about other countries lynx fleet. Other than the dutch cab that lost a blade sleeve. How many other crashes has there been? not many. Does this say something for the standard of the brit maintainers?? Having seen lynx from several different countries i have to say that the british armys cabs are by far the least looked after, the best? Denmark and Norway, those cabs are spotless.

[totalwar]

Its always so easy to knock the menders Normally it would be but the British Army don't have any Aircraft engineers...they only have REME:{ :{ :{

[LXGB]

Theworldsbestheli,
Just registered? You can't be a journo with spelling that bad.

However, your post was in somewhat poor taste. I'm not sure what you are trying to prove by spouting off trivia about export Lynx, then posting inflammatory comments about fatal accidents.

Welcome to PPRuNe

LXGB

[SilsoeSid]

Omani Lynx with wire cutters?

Would have been just as easy and costly to fit each pylon with a red light!

What else do they mark on their maps?

http://photos.airliners.net/07c155854611b9a286f305457d08f2f2/4227b9a8/middle/9/1/3/643319.jpg
Oman - Air Force
AgustaWestland Super Lynx 300

[MReyn24050]

Quote from Totalwar.

"Normally it would be but the British Army don't have any Aircraft engineers...they only have REME"

A totally unecessary remark and insulting remark. Yes I have bitten. Why? Because I find such remarks as offensive REME Aircraft & Avionic Technicians, Artificers and Aircraft Enginneering Officers are selected and trained to the same standards as their Royal Navy and Royal Air Force counterparts. Having supported Army Aviation in the field for many years I have the greatest respect for the work, effort and dedication REME Air has made in maintaining the AAC's aircraft with Flight Safety always being at the forefront.

[engineer(retard)]

Another one to rise to the bait

I have been involved in studies of comparative standards of maintenance between different countries operating the same type of aircraft. In the study, it was obvious that the other nations aircraft were in a better state than ours. However, they also had only consumed a third of the flying life in the same service life as ours. Naturally this was matched by the utilisation rate, we generated sorties at 3 times their rate. We did not look at comparative accident rates, had this been more than triple theirs, we would have to worry. Intuitively, I do not believe this to be the case.

You would not expect to see a taxi in the same condition as the car that is used once a week to go to Tesco. If you want shiny pristine cabs, use them less so that they can be valeted more often.

[breakscrew]

All power to the mighty Lynx! They are flown and maintained by some of the best aircrew and engineers in the world; these cabs are getting on a bit, but they fly the most demanding sorties in the most difficult conditions and rarely have a technical fault. If they do, then it is usually something that the REME engineers do not have any control over. As with most aspects of aviation, mishaps are caused by human factor issues 80% of the time, but happily, the army aircrews statistics are no worse than any of the other services in the UK. So please guys, don't knock the aircraft, crews or maintainers - they do a great job for Queen and country.

[wg13_dummy]

Cant believe what I'm actually reading from some contributors here.

As a bit of statistical balance. How many Lynx do the RN operate? How many Lynx do the Army operate? What flight profile/conditions/theatre as above? How many hours/airframe?

I have heard some interesting news regarding this accident. Watch future incident signals.

[Theworldsbestheli]

HERE HERE Breakscrew.

The world best small ships helicopter - The AgustaWestland Lynx.

[MightyGem]

From another site, it would appear to have been a failure of the IGB. :eek:

[totalwar]

Heard a rumour that the crew were in the hover a miscalculated and flew it backwards into the ground....any truth in that?

[totalwar]

Apparently there was a tree involved...?

[jbrereton]

Besides the early CAC failures I thought the Lynx was a great aircraft to fly and I had many a happy hour flying them. What a jump from the Gazelle and Scout.
Jon

[KENNYR]

Jon, I am genuinely shocked!!!:oh: Nothing, but nothing, was better than the Scout.......go wash your mouth out with soap and water..........Ken

[jbrereton]

Scout was okay for the hamfisted. Only had one bed in the back and could not carry as much beer on an Army Air Corps reunion and you could'nt fly the whole trip IMC. So there!

[MOSTAFA]

Ham*'@*ingfisted my a*se JB! You only needed 1 bed only 1 pilot. As for IMC unless your talking about ice I can't see the difference. Last time I flew a Lynx with 20mm,ish of ice I was back at 80kts to maintain height and recovering. As for carrying beer do some sums it aint that much different. I agree with Ken JB, go and wash your mouth out with soap and water.

[jbrereton]

Did not know there were any Scout pilots still alive its so old.

Mainly converted bedford drivers to fly it.

You may have been back at 80 kts in the Lynx, in the Scout you would not be here.

It was alright in its day but then technology came along.

Good job its not still in use as they have closed most of the coal mines, so no fuel.

JB

[MOSTAFA]

Still very proud of my 2000 hrs of coal shovelling, not quite as proud of my time with the risbridger!!!!! thats it now JB no more bites!! Honest

[MightyGem]

As they say, once a Scout pilot, always a Scout pilot, :yuk: losers!! :E

[BEagle]

I thought that all the Westland Wasps were dead, but I'm told there was one in at the Covert Oxonian Aerodrome on Sunday!

[KENNYR]

Beagle, there are a few Scouts in the hands of civilians nowadays. There may even be one with the Army Air Corps Historical Flight (if it hasnt been binned due to cuts). I havent seen any civilian Wasps though!!

Jon, you have made your point, and yes, I am an old fart.

You never flew one did you Mighty??

MOSTAFA, you are definately wasting your breath trying to persuade the uninitiated in the way of the Scout.

[ORAC]

XT435 - G-RIMM
XT781 - G-KAWW
XT626 AAC Historic Flight.

[MOSTAFA]

Gem - Your absolutely right " Once a Scout pilot, always a Scout pilot" yup and very proud of it. As I said my 2000hrs of Scout flying were amongst the very best of a varied (still ongoing) many types career.

Kenny your right remember the old adage "You can't teach pork"

[SilsoeSid]

An input of 'wasp' on G-INFO (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?categoryid=60&pagetype=65&applicationid=1&mode=summary&aircrafttype=wasp) brought up 6 results;

Registration Serial No. Aircraft Type Photo
G-BYCX F9754 WESTLAND WASP MK1B Yes
G-BZPP F9675 WESTLAND WASP HAS1 Yes
G-CBUI F9590 WESTLAND WASP HAS1
G-KAWW F9663 WESTLAND WASP HAS1 Yes
G-KAXT F9669 WESTLAND WASP HAS1 Yes
G-RIMM F9605 WESTLAND WASP HAS1 Yes

Most 'registered' and have 'Display of Registration Mark Exemption' which enables them to have the XTxxx type registration.

:ok:
SS

[KENNYR]

Thanks for the info Silsoe. Who would have thunk it, that many Wasps still around.

[jbrereton]

Kennyr

Stopped biting, thats a shame, I'll have to find somebody else to bait. Could have gone on for a bit.

JB

[handysnaks]

I thought that all the Westland Wasps were dead, but I'm told there was one in at the Covert Oxonian Aerodrome on Sunday!

Well, there's another Wasp that probably is dead now

Avery Scout (http://www.kten.com/article.asp?id=8322)

[SilsoeSid]

A man goes into a pet shop and asks the assistant;
"How much are the wasps?"
The assistant replies; " We don't sell wasps!"
you know the rest!!


:)
SS

[SilsoeSid]

A development for wg-13 dummy;

He who earlier said;IMHO, no it's not. A widow maker that is. I've been flying it for quite a long time and if I or all my muckers didn't consider it to be safe, we wouldn’t go near it. and he is now back to flying 'floppies'.


Royal Navy Lynx down off Cornish coast, interesting report link in thread. (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=155029&perpage=15&highlight=lynx&pagenumber=4)
Simulations carried out after the accident also suggest that crew believed they had no other option but to cut power to the rotor because of a perceived major incident rather than inadvertently descending into the sea.

:ugh:
SS