V2 tipping

[compressor stall]

Scene: Stuck on a boat in the furious 50's watching "the Secret War". As the chairs slid from side to side, the scene and interview of WWII fighters "tipping" German V2 rockets was digested and debated.

Between the fliers amongst us was disagreement as to how they did it and how it worked. Did they:

1. Go under the V2 wing with their own wingtip and contact the wing of the ricket and using ailerons physically push it upwards

2. Place their wingtip slightly behind the trailing edge of the V2 wing to reduce the drag (a la ground effect) making the V2 yaw then roll away

3. Hold thier wing tip underneath (though one would have thought the resultant veturi would have sucked the V2 wing downwards, thereby turning it towards the "tipper" creating a highly awkward, but certainly memorable moment.

4. Some other theory?

CS

[Tallbloke]

I saw the same programme I think, but it was V-1's not V-2's. V-1's were pilotless aircraft (UAV these days I guess, and the forerunner of the cruise missile) which some aircraft could just about manage to match for speed, just. The V-2 on the other hand was the forerunner of the ICBM. I am not sure what altitude it was launched to, but it went up a long way and came down nearly vertical following a highly parabolic path.

[treadigraph]

V1s and I thought it was yer actual physical contact, I believe they'd use a wingtip to flick the V1 over and upset the gyros sufficiently for the thing to go out of control... Griffon Spits and Tempests were used. There's a good painting of one or tother in hot pursuit of the little beggars...

Ah, memory stirring! Might have read about it in Bee Beamont's autobiography which I borrowed from somebody several years ago? Anybody got a copy?

[TD&H]

I seem to recall that they prefered no physical contact, that it wasn't needed, relied on aerodynamic effect. Then the V1 would roll beyond the directional gyro's capability to hold straight.

As for the actual aerodynamics? Is JF there? He's better at the subject than most of us.

Seem to recall a comment that gun laying radar was being developed to even having a go at the V2s. Guess that would have just meant saturating the flight path with shells hoping one would destroy it.

[reynoldsno1]

There were a few Mosquito pilots who also claimed V1 "kills"....

[henry crun]

Bea Beamont said the first destabilisation method used was to fly infront of the V1 at close range and use the slipstream to topple its gyros, which had a lateral auuthority of only +- 20 degrees.

This was difficult because the pilot lost sight of the target, so the wing tipping method was developed.

The Tempest's wingtip was edged under that of the V1 and then gently raised so that, without any contact, the boundary layer airflow lifted the target's wing and toppled it's gyros.

Mossies were used at night but, being slower than the Tempest, had to dive quite steeply onto the target to achieve the necessary overtaking speed.

Damn noisy things Doodlebugs, once heard never forgotten.

[teeteringhead]

Surprised to hear that attempts were made to shoot down V2 s. Parents lived in London during WW2 and said the first V2s were thought to be gas main explosions, as there was absolutely no warning - but maybe that was just propaganda.

And of course, the V2 provided the basic design for the SCUD (http://edition.cnn.com/interactive/world/0212/scud.explainer/content.1.html) which takes a bit more than 40s technology to shoot down...

[TD&H]

Shooting down V2s:

I only included this for I had heard it from an ex-Ack Ack gunner. Now it may be that they were hoping to use radar to pick up the V2 far enough out to at least have a go at buckshotting the area of fall. No idea how effective it might have been. Had the war and use of V2s gone on longer I'm sure some effort would have been made to at least have a go at them, besides bombing the elusive launch sites.

It was only commented to me the once, so I included it to see if anyone else had heard anymore, especially as the original poster had confused the V1 and V2.

[mungo_55]

V2s were actually nicknamed 'Flying gas main's by the public from what I can remember from a bit of research years ago. This was due to the government covering up what was happening at the start by referring to the explosions as gas mains going up.

[Sedbergh]

Proximity fuses based on a minaturised radar set in the AA shell were allegedly (Most Secret War, R Jones) the reason for a huge improvement in the rate of V1 shoot-downs.

I never heard of attempts to shoot down V2's. Sounds unlikely. Plus all the London AA had been moved to the coast to pot V1's in 1944. The V2's would still have been at very high altitude crossing the coast and would have been way out of range.

Probably some scientists did the maths about V2's and said forget it

PS I really hate that bit of gun-camera film where the pilot is banging away at a V1 & it explodes

There was absolutely nothing he could do but fly through the fireball and hope there were no hard bits inside. No wonder they tried tipping them over instead!

[TwoDeadDogs]

Hello all
I think Sedbergh has it. The proximity fuse did for the V1, in the same way as it did for the Kamikaze in the Pacific War. The allies were reluctant to allow it to be used in Europe in case the Germans captured rounds and figured out how to make their own.Only when the German assault in the Ardennes began to relly hurt, did they release the proximity fuse to the artillery. The German infantry hated the allied artillery with a passion and blamed the Allies for using Heat-seeking shells, that always burst overhead. Often ,the proximity fuse was all that prevented Allied troops from being overwhelmed and only the heaviest german tanks could withstand a prox. fuse barrage.I can't rememeber the name of the book from which I took all this but I think it was named "the secret fuse" or suchlike.
regards
TDD

[TD&H]

Barge et al

I didn't say they had shot at V2s, only that they were trying to develop things so they could have a go, however optomistic the idea might have been. Also, the guns had been moved to the coastal area for the V1s, they could always move them again!

Interesting to learn about the proximity fuze. Ppruners can invariably come up with interesting information from their stores of knowledge. Cheers!

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I remember Raymond Baxter years ago recounting how he and his wingman were flying Spitfires near a V2 launch site when one these montsters rose up majestically in front of them, climbimng vertically just after launch. His wingman took a pot shot at it - but luckily for them, he missed!

SSD

[Loki]

Sedburgh:

I`m sure I read years ago, the account of a radar operator in a mosquito which intercepted a V1 at night. He was somewhat superfluous, as they just had to follow the flames from the pulse jet. When the pilot opened fire, they had no time to avoid the resultant fireball and only just managed to land safely, having sustained a severe scorching!

Of all the V1s engaged by aircraft, I believe it was the Tempest MkV which scored highest.

Two Dead Dogs (interesting handle):

I read a book about the proximity fuse it was , I think, called "The Deadly Fuze" (note american spelling).....don`t remember the author, but was fascinating.

[supercarb]

Seem to recall a comment that gun laying radar was being developed to even having a go at the V2s. Guess that would have just meant saturating the flight path with shells hoping one would destroy it.

I have seen this mentioned in a book I read recently. Yes, I think what you describe is pretty much the technique they were hoping to try.

[ozplane]

An elderly ex-RAF chap I met at Duxford said that part of the reason for developing the aerodynamic wing-tipping method for downing the V1s was the danger of the physical method triggering the explosives in the beast. Sounds plausible.

[FE Hoppy]

My Dad did a bit of this in the war, he was on tempests at the time. They tried not to touch but would every now and then. Apparently the giros toppled quite easily so the contact only had to be very brief.

[Dr Illitout]

Now there's a frightening combination.
A twenty year old. A Tempest. Half a ton (approx) of high explosives. All fifteen foot apart travling at 200 mph umpteen thousand feet up!!!!!! There were some very brave people back then!!!.

Rgds Dr I.

[Loki]

Dr Illitout;

A bit more than 200mph I`m sure....and probably quite low level, which makes it even more dodgy IMHO!

[ozplane]

And you've got to make sure you don't flip it over in to Orpington High Street on market day. I thought the closing speed was nearer the 400 mph mark which is why only the Tiffie and later Spitfires were quick enough.

[TwoDeadDogs]

Hi Loki
That title sounds about right. It was of American origin. The "TwoDeaddogs" bit comes from the sound of one's tyres scuffing on tarmac upon touchdown being akin to the sound of a couple of poochs getting hit by a car. "arf,arf!". My first PPL instructor coined it and he clearly had a warped sense of humour.
Incidentally,the Americans tethered a captured Zero upon a huge wire mesh and fired the prototype shells at it. They wanted the fuse to fit the standard Navy 5in round. Later, they managed to fit the fuse into the Bofors 40mm round.
regards
TDD

[Centaurus]

Tonbridge, Kent circa 1944. Self walking up Deakin Leas (where I lived). Heard Doodlebug first and saw it scorching toward general London area my guess now around 1500-2000 ft with a Tempest about 300 yards directly behind it. Tempest let go with cannons and the Doodlebug blew up in a brilliant ball of flame and smoke.
Obviously the Tempest got away without being blown up itself, because it shoved off quickly. I didn't hear of anyone getting hurt on the ground although the explosion seemed directly over the marshalling yards. If there were no casualties, it was a miracle because it was one hell of an explosion.

[No comment]

Are there records of where V-1s (and even V-2s) hit in and around London?
I remember being told that a number hit the Sutton/Croydon area (South London) back at school and was interested to know where.
I seem to remember there was a map that we were shown where there had been a hit and that I went to see one that had been up my road at the time to see 3 houses of much younger origin than the rest of the street. Mind you I was only 10 at the time so may have been twisting the truth a bit!

Also, where were the wildest places that anyone has heard of these things ending up? Did any go completely off course?

[FE Hoppy]

Dr I,
My old man was about 17 at the time. Like many others at the time he lied about his age and joined up when he was 15.

He was an OLD sqn hack by the time he was 18.

[gruntie]

Are there records of where V-1s (and even V-2s) hit in and around London?
I remember being told that a number hit the Sutton/Croydon area (South London) back at school and was interested to know where.


Maybe quite a few to the South of London. I remember reading somewhere that there was a deliberate disinformation campaign to convince Jerry that they (the V1's at least) were overshooting - false reports in the Evening Standard of explosions in Watford, maybe.

So Jerry obligingingly reduced the range .................I know that one hit our village church, out in the Surrey Hills near Dorking. Though it could have been flipped by a Tempest, I suppose.

[TwoDeadDogs]

Hi all
Didn't a V2 go off course and end up in Sweden? I believe that the SOE managed to get bits off it smuggled to the UK, along with measurements.
regards
TDD

[henry crun]

I could be wrong but I think you are confusing the V2 with the V1.

[Dan Winterland]

You're right Ozplane. Shooting the things down was too dangerous. They were small, the reflector gunsights and gun harmonistaion were not optimised for such a small target. So the only way of shooting them down was to get bl**dy close - not a good idea!

[jimgriff]

The book regarding the developement of the proxy fuse is
"THE DEADLY FUZE"- Secret weapon of WW2 by Ralph B. Baldwin.
Published by Janes 1980. ISBN 0 354 01243 6.

Brilliant read and highly recommended.

[Loki]

Two Dead Dogs:

One did wander off and land in Sweden, and no doubt our spies got some info. However, hardware was recovered from a crashed V2 by the Polish resistance and flown back to the UK aboard a C47.

[henry crun]

Two Dead Dogs: Apologies for doubting you, you were right.

A. Cave Brown says on July 10th 1944 UK intelligence received info that a V2 had fallen in Sweden.
Menzies was given permission to buy the remains of the rocket from the Swedes for two squadrons of tanks.

Two Mossies were sent to Stockholm to bring these remains back to England.

gruntie: A German spy called Zigzag, who was to call the fall of the V1's, was captured and put to work passing back doctored info.
However, he was caught telling his story in a pub so his services were terminated, but the XX-Committee continued to pass false info re the fall of V1's.

The campaign was not entirely successful because although the Germans did shorten their range, many V1's, instead of falling in open country, came down in the working class areas south of the Thames.
The majority had previously been falling in the more affluent areas to the north.

[PPRuNe Pop]

The V2 was the first ballistic missile. It reached the stratosphere where, of course, nothing could touch it. It was never seen or heard except for the sonic bangs when it fell to earth.

It is laughable to consider that AA guns could ever be considered as a counter to them.

[Squawk7777]

I read a very interesting book on German wind tunnel testing and the V-2 project. The book is called "The Peenemuende Wind Tunnels" and is written by Peter Wegener. As far as I remember the V2 climed to a very high altitude (60-80 km seems to stick in my mind) and hit the surface at about Mach4. I could be wrong about the numbers, it has been years since I read the book. One thing is for certain though, it was almost impossible to shoot it down. A few V2s exploded prematurely during their long free fall (last few seconds before impact), and I don't think the engineers were able to slove the problem. That might be a reason to claims that V2s were shot down by AA or fighter planes.

7 7 7 7

[Onan the Clumsy]

[thread hijack]

I went to the a V2 launch site once. It's was a gigantic block of concrete that the allies pounded night after night. There was even a huge piece of concrete that got dislodged from the roof, but still they kept using the facility.

Then along came Tallboy (I think). One raid with reasonable accuracy was enough to cause a ground tremor that dislodged the fuel tanks and they had to shut the whole place down.

Pretty interesting tour, though obviously the site is in some disrepair :}

[/thread hijack]

[Bert Stiles]

Weren't there also He111/missile combinations floating around at about the same time? I can't recall whether they were air launching V1s or other derivatives of the Fiesler (?) design or whether they were Mistels.

They were launched from below radar coverage off the Dutch coast and the most effective counter was a standing Beaufighter patrol operating below, yes below, their launch altitudes. This at night and I have always understood to have been using sensitive altimeters rather than any form of radalt.

Anybody else know anything about this or am I just using my initials?

[henry crun]

After the ground sites were overrun Heinkel 111's were used to air launch standard V1's.

Apparently this was the most inaccurate method and few launched this way reached London.

[Squawk7777]

There were a few interesting tries by the Luftwaffe with unmanned missiles. The Mistel project was nothing more than packing an old bomber full of explosives and tie it to a Me-109 or FW190. Once released in the air the bomber - now a cruise missile - would be flown into the target via remote control.

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/images/lrg1171.jpg

There were a few tries to tow V-1s with Ar234s. I have only seen one picture, and I am not sure that He-111s were used. He-111s were used to drop V-1s in flight.

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/images/v1-1.jpg

The Fieseler project - a manned V-1 - was never flown. The idea was to pilot a V-1 into the target and the pilot would eject shortly before impact. For those who have not seen a "Fieseler Fi 103 Reichenberg IV" craft:

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/images/lrg0090.jpg

[Sedbergh]

According to R V Jones, Herbert Morrison opposed feeding the "V1's are overshooting story" to the Germans
as this would reduce the number falling on the "toffs" in central London without reducing the numbers falling on the labour voters in South London.

Who says political correctness is new?

Talking of political incorrectness, 35 years ago I worked with "Old Jasper" on a farm in Sussex

Jasper "See that field over there? There was one of they Eytalian prisoners of war ploughing it when one of they doodleybugs landed right on top of 'ee.
We never found one bit of 'ee. Did we laugh"

Didn't think too much of Eytalians, our Jasper

[TD&H]

S7777:

The manned V1s were flown, but not operationally. Have been reading test pilot Hans-Werner Lerche's book and he describes some of the tests flying the mother He111, first with the V1s gliding without power, then with the PJ working. Hanna Reitsch was involved as one of the test pilots of the V1s. According to all written reports I've seen these manned V1s were to be suicide missions, even with some well-known pilots having volunteered. No ejections seats fitted, but a test pilot was recorded to have bailed out of one of the early powered flights. Other pilots suffered injuries and fatalities with later powered test flights.

BTW, my earlier post said they were hoping to get the radar and guns set up to have a pot shot at the V2s, however optomistic that idea may have been. No-one claimed to have even tried, never mind to have successfully shot one down!

[TwoDeadDogs]

Hi all
With regards to the He111s, I read an account of their operations whereby the RAF initially used Mosquitos to intercept the launch aircraft. The Mossies were too fast, of course, so the Beaus were sent in,because they could fly safely at the launch speed,around 150mph,of the missile. The Heinkels launched the V-1s and then carried out a steep diving turn thru 180 degrees to evade the night-fighters and run for home. The ultimate loss rate eventually forced them to end operations.
regards
TDD

[Taildragger55]

No contact would be necessary, as the compressed air layer on top of the wing would be sufficient.
I have this on the best authority, a "Reader's Digest" article I read at about the age of 12!
A US jet pilot in the Korean War blacked out because of oxygen failure, and his wing men forced him back down to 10,000 where he could breathe again
Don't try this at home.

[Onan the Clumsy]

That's like the story of the a/c out of fuel being pushed back into friendly territory by his wingman. Think I read that on prune.

[CoodaShooda]

No contact would be necessary, as the compressed air layer on top of the wing would be sufficient. I have this on the best authority, a "Reader's Digest" article I read at about the age of 12!
A US jet pilot in the Korean War blacked out because of oxygen failure, and his wing men forced him back down to 10,000 where he could breathe again

Grumman test pilot Corky Meyer used a similar technique during comparison trials between the F4U Corsair and F6F Hellcat in 1943. Pat Gallo in the Corsair had oxygen problems at 25,000 ft and passed out.

Meyer used his wing tip to put Gallo into a spiral dive three times, getting him down to 9,000 ft where he recovered sufficently to resume control.

However, from reading Meyer's account, it seems that contact was made on each occasion.

[treadigraph]

Onan, that sounds like the 57 FIS F-94 Scorpion that was "shoved" back to Keflavik by a mate after flaming out over the decidedly chilly Atlantic. Allegedly!

Believe the pusher stuck his nose up the jet pipe of the pushee.

[RatherBeFlying]

I faintly recall a Bob Steven's cartoon of a sprog P-47 jock coming up on a V-1. Caption--Now that's the kind of target I like -- one that doesn't shoot back!
I'll just get up real close so I won't miss!

Sign on V-1 -- Gefahr! Explosif!

[ICT_SLB]

Probably the best book I've read on the whole V weapon war is "The Mare's Nest" by David Irving. I have a very old "Corgi" paperback and it makes fascinating reading.

For years the British were looking for big tubes as they didn't know that the V2 had internal guide vanes in the rocket nozzle and just used a small blast plate to launch. They actually had a photo of a V2 in firing position on a plate but with the flattened curvature of the plate it looked like a standard British Army tent and it was dismissed! Phot recce also provided shots of the V1 but they were dismissed as small fighters.

There were two large concrete structures - one for the V2 and one for the V3 "High Pressure Pump" a multi-barrel sequential charge gun (charges in side chambers added to projectile energy) a la Bull gun for Iraq. Jo Kennedy Junior was killed in an attempt to fly a loaded bomber into one of them when it exploded prematurely.

Page 262 of the book shows the fall of V2s between September & November 1944 - all mostly London and to the East but another grouping around Norwich from Staveren in Holland.

[Bre901]

Those of you driving to Calais for shopping could drive a couple more km further south to visit La Coupole (http://www.lacoupole.com/en/default.asp) (another link (http://www.theotherside.co.uk/tm-heritage/visit/visit-stomer-lacoupole.htm) )

The thing that struck me most is the fact that the V2 was quite an unefficient weapon : there were more people killed in the Dora concentration labour camp (30000) that by direct hits (15000 in UK, Belgium and France).

[LowNSlow]

Bre I think the Dora management regarded the deaths of their workforce as a success rather than a failure :(

[teeteringhead]

V2 was quite an unefficient weapon ... IIRC the ones fired at SE England averaged about one fatality each...

... but of course the effect on morale of a weapon with no appartent counter may have been disproportionate to its actual effect.

[Bre901]

LowNSlow the Dora management regarded the deaths of their workforce as a success rather than a failureNo doubt about that.

My point was that something like 500 brutes with sticks, handguns and gallows achieved a higher deathtoll than all that brand-new technology.

[ICT_SLB]

Have to agree on the morale side. My father was on base when the Guard's Chapel at Caterham (?) was hit by one of the first V2s. Beleive the total fatalities were around 44 (one of the highest) but the effect on the troops was huge.

I beleive there was a special Royal Engineers unit that watched for launches & were able to provide some warning however crude - at least people knew they were coming.

From my grandmother, who was in London then, the V1 "doodlebug" was almost a joke - if you could hear them they probably weren't going to hit you as the motor had to stop before they came down. Incidentally there were two gun rings around London with the fighters in the middle ring.

If you get to my neck of the woods (or prairies), check out the Kansas Cosmosphere. It has originals of both V1 and V2. They were restoring the V2 and found an original QA document inside one of the fuel tanks. They also have a very full description of Camp Dora, its role and the cost in human life. Included is a pencil sketch that was smuggled out showing the hills above the Camp which had a very unique profile in the hope that it would be bombed. It's quite a unique experience (for a US museum) to have the teenage docent explain exactly what lengths went on in Dora - don't think I ve heard anything like it except for the description of the death toll at Gettysburg.

[PPRuNe Pop]

From my grandmother, who was in London then, the V1 "doodlebug" was almost a joke - if you could hear them they probably weren't going to hit you as the motor had to stop before they came down. Incidentally there were two gun rings around London with the fighters in the middle ring.

I wrote on here a good few moons ago about a V1 that came straight for us (mother, sister and me) in July 1944. We heard it, saw it dip towards us and just made some shelters 75 yards away. This particular bomb hit a building just in front of the main building of St. Helier hospital in Carshalton.

It was no joke I can assure you.

[Loki]

My father was on the receiving end of the earliest V1 attacks. He saw about 4 on the first day and was at first under the impression that they were enemy aircraft which had been hit by anti aircraft fire, as they all had flames coming out of the back of them.

Later on, when their true nature had been established, he would apparently stand quite nonchalently out in the open with his father , and watch the things fly over near his home in East London. A relative visiting from the country was horrified at this, and would dive for cover as soon as the pulse jet was heard.

[ICT_SLB]

Pop,
All I can say is I'm glad you survived. Loki's tale just parallels my gran's in that the V1s rapidly went into the nuisance category for a lot of Londoners especially East Enders (she was in Woolwich I beleive). This may have been due to the relative success of the defences (especially the emphasis on tipping) and the intelligence war that gradually shifted the aiming point further & further East over the Thames Estuary.

I'm always amazed at the level of bombing that was taken in their stride by people duiring the war. My mother got caught on a train in an air raid. A sailor told her not to worry - they could hear the bombs - it was the one you didn't hear that would get you. After the real hell of the Blitz when, for example, Silvertown & the Isle of Dogs was set on fire from end to end; the effect of a single one tonne warhead once or twice a day was probably just an inconvenience - unless, of course, you were under it as you were Pop.

[PAXboy]

It is true that they landed above the speed of sound. There was no warning - just the explosion. A quote from one who was there (my mother) "If you heard the V2 then you were alive."
Page 262 of the book shows the fall of V2s between September & November 1944 - all mostly London and to the East I have not read the book but can attest to one arriving in Ashford, Middlesex on 28th October 1944, around 04:00. It killed the two people who would have become my paternal grandparents. The young man who would (but for a later and unrelated flying prang) have become my uncle, escaped because his bedroom was on the far side of the house, which was of a very solid construction. The house was repaired after the war and still stands but not with my family as occupants.