Flying N reg in the UK, Goal posts move????

[Cessna 210 Heavy]

Hi everyone,

I was chatting to a guy at work today and he has told me that the goal posts have just changed with regards to flying an N reg Aircraft outside of the US. He said that I am required to be a part owner of the Aircraft in order for me to fly it, also that even though I am an owner I am required to have some sort of cirtification from the FAA to fly the Aircraft outside of US Airspace. How about if I want to let friends fly my Aeroplane, at no charge?

Just to recap, I have a JAA and FAA PPL with UK IMC and night ratings.

Can I have peoples opinions on what I am and am not allowed to do.

Regards

A very confussed

C210:uhoh:

[2Donkeys]

On the second point, the FARs tell us that to fly a US aircraft, you must either have an FAA ticket, or a licence issued by the state in which you are flying.

No changes there.

With regards the other "suggestion", I am not aware of any change in the rules there.

It seems to me that "blokes" are always saying unattributed things that imply that the rights of N-reg flyers are being curtailed. So far, the "blokes" have invariably proved to be wrong.

2D

[Chilli Monster]

He said that I am required to be a part owner of the Aircraft in order for me to fly it
Have a serious think about this:

Do American airline pilots need to 'own' their aircraft to fly it outside the U.S?

Do the Large numbers of 'N' reg bizjets need to be part owned by their pilots in order for them to fly it?

The 'bloke' is talking b*****ks.

What are you allowed to do? You can fly your 'N' reg aircraft anywhere on the back of your FAA licence. What you can't do is fly it IFR in the UK on the basis of your IMC rating (At least that's my understanding of the FARs).

[Cessna 210 Heavy]

Thats what I was thinking. Just needed some opinions really.

[Flyboy-F33]

Who is this 'Bloke' and what is his interest in the matter?

[Capt BK]

Sorry for changing the subject but can you fly N reg aircraft IFR in UK airspace with a JAR IR?

[2Donkeys]

Captain BK.

Yes. But once you leave UK airspace, you'll need either an FAA IR or an IR issued in the country in which you are flying

FAR 61.3

[Cessna 210 Heavy]

So I can fly my N reg Aircraft at night in the UK??

Also can I fly it IMC in the UK?

I have been told no on both counts.

[BroomstickPilot]

Cessna 210 Heavy

When I first returned to flying a few years ago, I considered buying a share in an 'N'.

I had no previous experience of aircraft ownership and in any case I was newly back into flying, after a break of a good many years, and hence not up to date with current gen.

As I usually do in such circumstances, I discussed my thoughts with a variety of people to get the latest 'low down' and to form some idea of the concensus of opinion among those 'in the know'.

One of the people I spoke to was a woman, whom I understood to be a professional pilot, working at Old Sarum. She told me that if you operated an 'N' in this country, you were only allowed to use it for six months of any year. I didn't believe her, but said nothing.

Over the months that followed, I gradually realised that there are people about in British GA, who so disapprove of those who set out to obtain either American licences or American licenced aircraft, that they will actually tell you deliberate lies to put you off. These lies become innocently picked up by others and are then re-told many times over.

Whatever anyone tells you about operating an 'N' or gaining an American licence, always check with those whose judgement and honesty you trust before you accept it.

[IO540]

The last two paras of BroomstickPilot's post above are entirely accurate, I am sorry to say.

And it is exceedingly difficult to get accurate info on this. Most (not all) people that know anything about this have axes to grind. In some cases the axes are obvious, at other times not as obvious.

Cessna 210 Heavy

The FARs (don't recall the para.) suggest that to fly an N-reg IFR you need an "instrument rating" which most take as meaning an ICAO IR. As with many things however, there is some room for debate on this, because the UK IMCR most clearly gives you instrument privileges in UK airspace.

I once wrote to the CAA asking if my IMC Rating would be valid in an N-reg; their reply was (paraphrasing) that nothing from the CAA says it isn't but that the FAA might have other views. Now, getting a reply even to the most trivial question out of the FAA is like pulling teeth, and IME there is no chance of getting an intelligent reply to this one. Very few American aviation people know what the IMC Rating is anyway.

I doubt any of this has been ever tested. One tends to not have incidents (that are discovered by others) while airborne :O I dare say that if you were flying an N-reg (in the UK) on an IFR flight plan and had a mishap on an instrument approach, and you had only the UK IMC Rating, then somebody might look into it. Who knows?

[englishal]

The biggest problem with Europe, the CAA and JAR land is that you ask one person and they tell you one thing, ask another and you get a different reply. Admittedly the CAA are good at responding to queries, even if it does take 10 weeks to get a reply.

We had a good discussion on here a few years ago about using the FAA IR privileges in a G reg in France. The CAA allow you to fly outside CAS IFR without an IMCR in a G reg if you have an FAA IR. So I asked the DGAC if I could do this also in France to which they replied yes I could becasue the CAA allow it. However it transpired that due to other rules, you cannot fly IFR outside CAS in France, and so therefore I couldn't.....

Who do you believe....?

The Americans are good becasue they are quite narrow minded and everything revolves around America. this means that their rules are very cut and dry until you start talking about international matters (i.e. N reg in Europe). Then it sort of becomes a bit of a divide by zero....cannot compute.....and you have to start digging around for the answers. The FAA are good about putting plain English FAQs on their web site which is something we could really do with over here....a definitive list of factually correct, authorised answers. Even the CAA website contains errors. As in the above example it used to claim that "an FAA IR gives the same privileges as an IMCR in a G reg aircraft" which was totally wrong.

By the way AFAIK you do not need to be part owner to fly an N reg outside Europe. You can dry lease N reg aircraft but not actually rent them in the normal sort of way.......

Cheers

[IO540]

englishal

However it transpired that due to other rules, you cannot fly IFR outside CAS in France, and so therefore I couldn't.....

Can you recall where this came from? I am 99% sure it isn't true.

The problem may be terminology. I was once told by an ATCO at a RyanAir-type French airport that an IFR flight plan "must be on the airways".

However whereas "airways" in the UK are Class A, "airways" in France are the lines on the 1:1M SIA charts which are all over the place, typically FL055 and above, and probably the majority are at least partly in Class G. An IFR FP can, AFAIK, specify any route via those.

What that ATCO probably meant is that one can't just string together a load of waypoints and file an IFR FP with it, the way one can in the UK.

The biggest problem with N-reg ops remains deliberate disinformation.

Perhaps the cost common form is the insistence of certain FAA training operations that instrument time done with a non-FAA CFII instructor doesn't count - this is wrong. A more accurate interpretation is that only time with an ICAO IR instructor counts, but in reality if you go to Florida to do your IR they will accept your IMCR instrument training even though the UK instructor is most unlikely to himself have had anything more than an IMCR.

Once one has done the FAA PPL/IR then the whole situation clarifies, and the only "obstacle" is that an instructor cannot be paid for the flight, without a permission from the DfT and this permission is given (in brief) only to owners. This raises problems with the BFR - many people (e.g. syndicate members with too small a % share) will just have to find an instructor who will do the BFR without a payment.

[homeguard]

One area here that needs to be clarified is the meaning of Instrument Flight Rules. Many countries do not allow flight in accordance with IFR without the pilot holding an IR.

The UK does not require a rating for IFR outside of 'controlled airspace'. A PPL without an instrument rating therefore may file IFR and fly in accordance with IFR outside of controlled airspace but will need to remain VMC.

The requirement for night within the UK is simply to operate in accordance with IFR remaining VMC but, for the pilot to enter IMC while flying at night they will require an instrument rating attached to their licence.

In France you may fly in accordance with VFR at night when outside of controlled airspace.

As i understand it the privileges of the IMC Rating may be used at any time within the UK but only when flying in accordance with the privileges of the UK/JAA licence. If flying using the privileges of an FAA Licence then the rules with regard to that licence must be abided by. An IMC rating cannot be attached to an FAA licence.

If the UK were to allow a UK PPL to fly an FAA registered aeroplane within the UK then the IMC may be used - but to my knowledge it dosn't. If the FAA allows a UK/JAA PPL to fly a FAA registered aeroplane with the UK then it follows that the pilot can of course use the privileges of the the licence they are using.

[englishal]

The problem may be terminology. I was once told by an ATCO at a RyanAir-type French airport that an IFR flight plan "must be on the airways".
I think the problem stemmed from the fact that although the DGAC said that they didn't have a problem with flying IFR outside CAS that there was no method of actually flying IFR outside CAS in France....i.e. you must be in CAS to be IFR.....

Editied to say that I specifically asked the DGAC if I could "Fly IFR outside CAS out of sight of the surface and in IMC" as the CAA would allow....to which they replied yes.

[homeguard]

You must understand the difference between IMC/IFR.

IMC is a met condition. IFR/VFR is a set of rules by which you fly. VFR dosn't preclude flight out of sight of the surface. The requirement to be in sight of the surface is a restriction imposed on a PPL licence issued by the UK CAA. Other countries may or may not impose the restriction, France does not. However wherever you fly in the world you are required to fly within the privileges of the licence issued to you. An issue of an IMC rating effectively removes the 'in sight of the surface' restriction and allows the pilot to fly to the letter of the VFR rules. In the UK (only) the IMC rating permits flight in IMC with the exclusion of IMC within Class A airspace.

[Chilli Monster]

Editied to say that I specifically asked the DGAC if I could "Fly IFR outside CAS out of sight of the surface and in IMC" as the CAA would allow....to which they replied yes.


Actually this makes a lot of sense if you think in terms of airspace rather than licence limitations.

IFR in Class 'G' does not require a clearance. In addition, any chance of you getting any sort of ATC service in Class 'G' in France is nil. This works both ways however - so long as you doon't infringe any class 'E' or higher when IMC/IFR then you're not of interest to anyone.

Therefore, the DGAC attitude is purely saying "What you do in Class 'G' is your business monsieur - don't bother us about it".

[IO540]

If the UK were to allow a UK PPL to fly an FAA registered aeroplane within the UK then the IMC may be used - but to my knowledge it dosn't

It does.

You can definitely fly an N-reg plane, on a UK PPL, in UK airspace only.

My question to the CAA was whether a UK PPL+IMCR holder could fly an N-reg plane IFR, anywhere below Class A just like they can in a G-reg. They couldn't see a problem, provided the FAA was OK with it.

[Fuji Abound]

I know - we should encourage the CAA to recognise the IMC as an ICAO SEP private pilots IR - or would that be too simple.

Leaving aside for a moment whether the existing practical training time is sufficient I struggle to understand why if it is the case the CAA consider the training adequate to permit an approach in IMC within controlled airspace down to minimum they are not also prepared to take this logical step forward to ensure the rating is properly recognised.

[englishal]

I do understand the difference between IMC and IFR. With an FAA IR in a G reg plane (not IMC rating) the UK allows flight in accordance with IFR, outside sight of the surface, and in IMC (conditions) whilst outside CAS (A-E).

My question to the DGAC was to ask whether they would also permit this, to which the reply was yes.

Some may not think this would be very useful, but it would theoretically allow a JAA PPL with FAA IR and IMC to take off from a French airfield which is located outside CAS into IMC conditions (using the FAA IR "portion") then on arrival in the UK fly an IAP into a Class D airfield (using the IMC "portion")......It would certainly reduce weather limitations....

Cheers

[Cessna 210 Heavy]

Thanks for the replies.

I feel I have opened a can of worms!

I always tend to do what I want to do and if I an wrong then just say sorry, if you know what I mean ;)

[bookworm]

However whereas "airways" in the UK are Class A, "airways" in France are the lines on the 1:1M SIA charts which are all over the place, typically FL055 and above, and probably the majority are at least partly in Class G. An IFR FP can, AFAIK, specify any route via those.

I thought we'd been round this loop before in another place?

All airways in France have a notional 10 nm width and are class E up to FL115, D above. ENR 3.0 (http://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/aip/enligne/METROPOLE/AIP/ENR/3/AIP%20FRANCE%20ENR%203.0.pdf) para 1 refers. Note that this class E is not shown on SIA half-mil charts and there is an annotation to that effect.

[IO540]

F.A.

There is a lot of "old farts" in GA and they have a very ambivalent attitude to the IMC Rating. Just read all the publications. For every person that quietly uses the IMCR to its privileges, there are a dozen old farts who describe it as a "get out of jail card" or a "get you out of trouble rating" or a "get you INTO trouble rating" :O

I can't see the privileges being extended, ever. The IMCR is a relic which we would have never got today. It's a great privilege for which we must be grateful. The alternative (a JAA IR, or an FAA IR and putting the plane on the N-reg, at a sometimes monstrous cost) is far far harder and far more expensive, and not for any good reason IMHO.