Engineering with the RAF

[joe2812]

Not sure how many RAF EngO's are on here, but i'd like some honest answers to a couple of questions if you wouldnt mind.

I'm off to Uni in September to study Aeronautical Eng at Hertfordshire with an aim to being a Pilot in the RAF... Now all I have ever wanted is Pilot, however have said to myself that should I be medically unfit, or realistically just plain not good enough, my fall-back is Engineer.

However i'm a very hands-on person and I wouldn't enjoy purely managing others. How hands-on can an EngO get with the aircraft? Is their role purely management of personnel? I've contacted Coltishall (local base) to try and arrange various visits but with me being out of school they haven't been too positive and have failed on each attempt to get visits or work exp. for any period of time.

Really i'm just looking for the honest truth, not the BS i'll be fed to get me to fill their quotas!

All comments appreciated as ever.

Thanks, Joe

[The Maintainer]

Joe

Dreamed of being a pilot all my life until I went to OASC for the first time at 16 and failed the medical. As I was the scientific type at school, I was encouraged to apply for engineer and succeeded in getting a University Cadetship (when such things still existed) to help me through Uni. I emerged from the Cranwell training mill in 1990 and have not looked back since - I've had a brilliant time. To answer your specific questions here - not very hands-on, you've got technicians to do most of the hands-on stuff while you get on with the higher-level management stuff. It's not just about managing personnel, though, it's about a whole lot more. If you want to know more, check your PMs and get in touch.

[joe2812]

TM

Thanks for that, i'll get all the questions down on paper (e-mail) and drop you a line.

Much appreciated. Joe.

[Skylark4]

Joe.
Nobody ever made a fortune with his hands (unless he was an Artist or a Forger).
If you really want to be an Aircraft Engineer and work hands on then I suggest you get your Licences and work in the civilian light aircraft field.
What I suggest you do is follow the Maintainers advice which I suspect will suggest you join the RAF with your Eng. degree under your belt, hope for Pilot and take Engineer if you have to. For the hands on bit, I suggest you take up Gliding or build your own aircraft under the auspices of the PFA.

Mike W

[Another St Ivian]

Hey Joe,
Bit of a long shot here, but you didn't happen to be at UofH this Wednesday did you? Oh, and I presume you meant Aerospace Eng, not Aeronautical (could be rather hard to take Aeronautical Eng at UofH!)

ASI

P.S. See you in September, perhaps :ok:

[joe2812]

ASI I wasn't there this Weds, had my interview/open day a few weeks before Xmas... after my superbly brilliant interview and winning smile, they phoned a few weeks after confirming they'd lower my offer! So yes, hopefully see you in Sept! (Apologies for the course name, I applied for A/nautical everywhere else!)

Mike - Thanks for that, not what I was hoping to hear, was hoping it'd be up to the individual how hands-on he got! But hey, I asked for the truth and honesty is appreciated! :ok:

Thanks all,

[PPRuNeUser0172]

Good choice of degree Joe, bloody hard work at times though. Although that makes it more satisfying than other less demanding degrees. You will probably find a lot of wannabees on your course though............

Good luck

[Another St Ivian]

I can vouch for that already, DS. I popped down to the UofH and spent the day with their School of Engineering this week, felt obliged to go and say hello after they rather kindly gave me an unconditional offer :E . Anywho, one of the things I noticed was that allot of the prospective students are wannabes (RAF/RN/Army or civil career flying careers planned), while those that are still in by the second/third year are either on the UAS and on track, or have their sights set on an Eng. based career (primarily civil it must be said though)

ASI

Joe; PM me sometime, UofH isn't my number 1 choice at the moment, but you never know.

[L1A2 discharged]

Joe,

Officers do officer stuff.

Engineers do the work.

Never the twain shall meet :ok:

[Aeronut]

L1A2

Unless you are a Chartered Engineer - your'e not an engineer, you are a technician.

;)

[Tempsford]

What I would like to know is where Engineering Officers go when they leave the RAF. Been involved with civil aircraft for a long time and have only met a handful. As for 'unless you are a Chartered Engineer you aren't an Engineer' crap. My Licence says Licenced Aircraft Engineer and that is good enough for me.

Temps

[Point0Five]

What I would like to know is where Engineering Officers go when they leave the RAF. Been involved with civil aircraft for a long time and have only met a handful. As for 'unless you are a Chartered Engineer you aren't an Engineer' crap. My Licence says Licenced Aircraft Engineer and that is good enough for me.

Sorry temps, can't agree with that one at all. By definition an Engineer is a professional with an Engineering degree. You don't hear medics claiming to be doctors or para legals claiming to be lawyers do you?

Take heart from the fact that you are a "Licenced Aircraft Engineer" and clearly proud of the fact. But simply, you aren't an Engineer per se.

By the way, this isn't an Air Force Officer/Airmen issue; this is an industry wide problem where every man and his dog feels that they are entitled to call themselves an engineer.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Aren't Engineers the guys who drive trains?
:}

[Point0Five]

Aren't Engineers the guys who drive trains?

That's correct PAF, and pilots are the guys who drive ships in and out of harbour. ;)

[BEagle]

Point O Five is entirely correct - 'Engineers' must have the recognised level of professional qualifications in order to be correctly termed as such. Otherwise they are 'maintenance personnel' or 'technicians'.... Slack industry practices in terminology are irrelevant.

BEagle BSc(Eng)...

[L1011GE]

Short answer ..
After 26 years in the RAF I have never seen an Eng O get his or her hands dirty..
some will come outside out of interest but the novelty soon wears off...

they are officers and stay in offices where they belong..

Beware of ink contamination., it can be nasty on the hands.

[Jobza Guddun]

Quite right BEags.

However, it has to be said that use of the word "Engineers" in the RAF is massively aircrew driven......we don't tend to describe ourselves as such.

L1011GE, in 16 years I've only seen one get dirty, and once having done so never ventured out again.(TFFT!)

They don't seem to like the cold and wet either......

Joe, if you want to be a hands-on engineer, don't join the RAF as an EngO. Likewise, don't join as an oik if you have a degree. Go for pilot and work down.

[engineer(retard)]

L1011GE

Okay I'll take the hook.....

In 24 years I never worked on airliners so am not sure if you've taken the narrow view. Having commissioned through the ranks, I did do the hands on for almost half of my career. After that it depended on the environment.

On a sqn as an EngO at least half of my day was spent on the line, the outdoor bit. However HAS sites were different, if you tried to do the same you only knew what was happening in your immediate area and lost touch with the rest of your shop. Whcih you are supposed to be in charge of. There was also plenty of opportunity to get dirty during special weapons checks but that also meant lots of time in the office because you have to read and sign every single job card to check noone had interfered with the weapon systems. A nauseating and time consuming job. 2nd line aircraft work offered interesting engineering problems occasionally.

To answer the original question. Unfortunately, there are now limited opportunities for sqn work and these form a small proportion of your career as an EngO. And the overheads of personnel managment are huge. Engineer is probably a misnomer on units its more engineering management. Most of your career will be in staff tours with very little opportunity for hands on work and the amount of engineering inolvement varies, trials officers get lots, support management try and buy spares with no budget and try and deal with rafts of standards.

PS I PVR'd

[Tempsford]

Are the RAF and Civilians going to reclassify the job of 'Flight Engineer' for those 'Flight Technicians' who do not have degrees? I see that there are Universities producing folks with degrees in Aircraft Maintenance. Are they Engineers because they have a degree? Strange thing is that they can't certify diddly until they have a Part 66 Aircraft Maintenance Technician Licence. It is a funny old world isn't it.
Back to my original question, where do Engineer Officers go to when they leave the RAF?
By the way I am far too long in the tooth to enter into anything other than a deabte on this subject. I have never been in the Forces, but have heard that there are some very good Engineer Officers and the there are the others. Bit like the civilian side I suppose.

Temps

[CANTSAY]

RAF Engineer officers NEVER, NEVER, need to use the swarfega!!!

:O

Whats the difference between a professional ball kicker and an amateur one, or cricketer, or golfer, or tennis player?

Golf Green Keepers now do Uni Degree at Birmingham Uni, whatever next? Will they assume a new title of Golf Green Engineer so as to fit nicely with their enhanced education? Get accepted into the Members Bar and drink / dine with the snivelling ex colonel secretary? who could very well choke to death at the prospect of the pond life getting above their station (or water line in this case).

Are Doctors not just better professionally trained medics?

Are professional Plumbers more than pipe cleaners?

Whats the difference between professional Technicians, Mechanics and Engineers?

Are parents, who happen to drive, as qualified as professional Approved Driving Instructors?

Why does the Daily Mail always harp on about '' Young Professionals'' , when they talk about anyone working in the media, or public relations, or even desk bound key board bashing bimbos, or anyone who works in the ''city'' yuppying their way from morning coffee to extended working lunch and on thru afternoon tea?

Everybody wants to be, in fact demands to be, A PROFESSIONAL .. Where is it going to end??????

Every Tom Dick and Harry wants a degree and status, OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What the heck is wrong with today's society which is so dammed class concious?

[engineer(retard)]

Cantsay

You're right swarfega creates too much froth. KY jelly or vaseline might be better - can you advise?

Tempsford

Back to your original question. Looking at your profile, I'll answer that engineers do not go into civvy aviation because the outlay is not worth the financial return, and the skills transferance is negligible.

In general, the after service career depends on the individuals own situation and approach to risk. A proportion at 55 will go straight into the civil service or perhaps QinetiQ, often the same job but with less pay, and the pension maintains the lifestyle. Many go straight into the defence industry, their project management background being directly transferable. Some go into consultancy, either as an employee or in business on their own account and will often drift away from pure defence as experience in things like safety cases etc are now going into the rail, nuclear, health industries or anywhere there is a chance of being sued. IMHO, the 2nd move tends to be the most significant, as the first just proves to you that you can survive the transition to civvy life.

[Megaton]

Just left the RAF as 16 years as an engineering officer. Now employed as a First Officer with a regional airline. RAF engineering sucks!

[L1A2 discharged]

HF, sounds like the RAF is well rid of you. :mad:

RAF Engineering is (probably) the best way to provide delivery platforms for explosives onto the selected enemy.

Civil Aviation Engineering is (probably) the most cost concious method of putting seats into the sky.

Not mutually compatible aims.

[tonkatechie]

Joe,
if by hands on you mean actually picking up spanners and getting stuck in changing components, forget it. You can do that, but I think your career would be a short one! As for managing personnel, that is a very important aspect of your job, particularly as a JEngO on a squadron, but that's not to say that a lot of this won't be delegated to your subordinates. Where your 'hands on' work lies, is in certifying the aircraft fit for flight when we can't get hold of spares, or have to make repairs to make do until the aircraft goes to a deeper maintenance. This is where your experience, education, and above all ability to hear the advice of your experienced techies (some of who will have been in the RAF for longer than you've been on the planet) comes into play.
Don't be too focused on the first job you'll be doing if you do end up as an EngO - there seems to be a variety of jobs that you'll end up doing. Also, take a good hard look at some of the threads here on pprune - look at what folk who are in the mob are complaining about: wages, career prospects, morale, recognition of work, family life, out of area ops etc etc. The forces as a whole are changing rapidly, and they're not suiting some, whilst others are thriving on it.

*Catches breath, and retreats back to the tea bar*:) :ooh:

[Tempsford]

Thanks to all who responded to my question. The picture is clearer now.

Tempsford.

[Snakecharmer]

Jobsa Guddun - best advice seen so far! If Joe wants to be a pilot, he should become a pilot! If, for whatever reason, a military flying career doesn't happen for him, better by far to go straight down the civil aircrew route than go for second (third, fourth etc?) best as an RAF EngO! You shouldn't deny yourself that which would make you truly happy.

This morning, I handed in my 1250 after 18 1/2 years as a member of the RAF Engineer branch. Spent most of it studiously avoiding jobs which had too much engineering content as I find it deathly dull and always did! Best thing I did... spend all my spare time flying, thus accumulating in excess of 2500 civilian flying hours.

As to 'where to EngOs go when they leave?'... my CV is getting sent to a variety of airlines during the next week... rumour is that First Officer recruitment is buoyant! :-)

[Aeromole]

Out of my ASEC course (which was more years ago than I care to think about!), 2 work in the defence industries in Australia, one works for BAES, one is a director of an engineering firm, one in DPA, one is about to become a vicar and 2 or 3 are still serving. I've been working in the defence avionic industry, using my engineering-based project management skills. There is life after being a mole!

[L1011GE]

Where your 'hands on' work lies, is in certifying the aircraft fit for flight when we can't get hold of spares, or have to make repairs to make do until the aircraft goes to a deeper maintenance. This is where your experience, education,

meaning ADFs and LIMs on tranport aircraft they are written and authorised by Flt Sgts and down route by GEs..

The engO job in my opininon is not worth it as a career... all your time will be spent in an office...NOT Engineering.

[PerArdua]

I agree with L1011GE Being an EngO in the RAF is overated, I should have joined as a pencil pusher, same job faster promotion!!! Only 4 years to go and then I am qualified to be a Postman or HR and NOT an Engineer

[engineer(retard)]

L1011GE

From your posts I assume that you are SNCO Ground Eng who works on transports. You believe that an Eng O career is not worth it based upon your experience. Without trying to be insulting, you are not really qualified to make that statement. You are only privy to a small part of the engineering world. Regarding unit life, my own personal experience is that Tonkatechies statement is nearer the mark for sqn work. However, less than 1 tour in 3 is on a Unit, more of your career is in staff work and you probably do not have any insight to what goes on out there.

PA

If I was you, I would give your desk officer a shoeing. If you can choose your last 2 tours wisely, it will make the transition much easier by taking posts with transferable skills. Since leaving the mob, I have worked as an engineer and as a project manager. Project managers get paid a lot more than engineers out here. And strangely, I have had to beat job agencies off with a big stick because of my experience as a an eng o. Cannot tell you what I get paid but it is a lot better than a Sqn ldr post pay 2000.

Regards

Retard

PS also I do not have a degree, so am not really an engineer. Being able to do it, instead of having read a book about it does help in the real world.

[The Maintainer]

Joe
Beware tonkatechie's advice - people come onto this site to whinge, not to tell everyone how great life in the RAF is. More of my colleagues enjoy what they do than don't. IMHO, there are more thriving on it than not suiting it...
Look forward to your email!

The Maintainer

[L1011GE]

Without trying to be insulting, you are not really qualified to make that statement. You are only privy to a small part of the engineering world.

I think 26 years both first line, second line and working closley with IPT and AEDIT gives me a good insight into engineering on RAF aircraft..

Do not forget as an Eng O employment in MT and Ground Equipment and other support sections also beckons..

[engineer(retard)]

L1011GE

As mentioned I was not trying to be insulting and do not doubt your abilities on RAF aircraft. Prior to my lobotomy, I had 12 years doing similar work to you, before another 12 years being an Eng O.

However, you missed out procurement at DPA, R & D or military specialist at QinetiQ or DSTL, role offices in HQSTC, secondment to industry teams. As an eng o, I had to write cardinal point specs, judge on competitive tenders, attend equipment and system design reviews, provide MAR recommendations, conduct flight trials, let contracts. Admittedly, this is not hands on in the context that you mean but there are more elements to being an eng o than dismantling aircraft.

Fortunately, I managed to avoid MT and the support sections.

[Red Line Entry]

Joe,

As has been alluded to before, if you want to be a pilot then go all out to be a pilot. If the RAF doesn't take you, make sure you explore all other flying options rather than become an EngO just because it gets you into an RAF uniform. (And please, don't believe anything along the lines of: "Well, join up as an engineer and then transfer later to pilot" - cross-overs like that are rarer than an honest politician)

If, and only if, you have decided that flying's not for you, then the life of an EngO is, in my biased opinion (with 15+ years doing the job), pretty damn good.

But it is not a hands-on job in terms of putting on overalls and fixing aircraft. (if that's what you want, then the non-commissioned route is better). Furthermore, at best, you will have no more than 2 tours at first line (actually on a flying sqn) in your entire career.

Essentially, the job is engineering management. This can involve being responsible for a large number of technicians (70 or so as a first tourist JEngO) or none at all. It ranges from having to make immediate decisions (Can the jet fly with a particular fault) or ones which will have an impact for decades (equipment procurement for example).

The range of employment is vast; in addition to what's been mentioned earlier I would offer: being a technical expert in the Defence Intelligence Staff, overseeing civilian contract implementation, working on exchange with other air forces, managing an aircraft fleet and running technical training courses. The list goes on.

Bottom line - I've always promised myself that the day I stop enjoying the life, I'd get out - irrespective of any short term financial issues. But I'm still in, with no intention of leaving. (hmmmm, but maybe that's just a reflection on my limited horizons...)

Whatever you decide, go for it balls-out and good luck!

[SlopJockey]

I have to agree with Eng(Retard), studying for a degree only gives you a qualification and enables you to do big sums. A majority of "Engineers" are academics and are therefore technically illiterate. They couldn't tell the difference between OM15 and OX26.

Whilst I agree that EngOs in the RAF are pretty much technical administrators, more so in the supposed practical tours, there are a large number that come from the ranks and do have a great deal of direct technical knowledge and experience. Being able to assess immediately whether something is viable in technical terms is what we are paid for.

We add value, at no extra cost to the taxpayer by; having a firm grasp of what upsets the growbags when the ac are not on the flight line; by covering for the lack of knowledge shown by commercial and financial staff within the procurement world; by acting as the intelligent customer in discussions with industry; by working our nuts off to try and drag out the service life of a fleet of 35-50 yr old aircraft.

The management aspects and experiences gained in all of the roles are very useful throughout life and are things that aircrew will never get the chance to experience, maybe that’s why ex RAF engineers become project managers often in a completely unrelated field. Aircrew, especially junior aircrew, have very little understanding of the real problems that lie behind getting the shiny pursuit ships off the ground but at least they’re happy in there own little worlds. Bless the little dumplings :\

SlopJockey

[Point0Five]

After my earlier flippant remarks I feel that I should probably make a substantive comment….

As has been highlighted by a number of posts here, engineering is quite a broadly defined profession; but within the context of question let’s talk about the role of a degree qualified Engineering Officer within the armed forces. A common misconception is that Engineering Officers are merely commissioned versions of technical airmen (and vice versa), this is definitely not the case. Whilst one supervises/advises the other (depending on your point of view:D) there is a huge difference between how the two are trained and operate. To make a gross generalisation technical airmen learn through process and experience whereas engineering officers are employed to ask why, and understand systems from purely analytical point of view. That is to say, a techo will approach a problem from a where have I seen this before, what did my training tell me and how can I fault find it point of view. Hopefully, a good engineering officer will view it from the perspective of why does this system perform in such a manner and what are the larger impacts. Like I said, a gross generalisation, but an effective one none the less.

However, to answer your original query… an engineering degree is a lot of hard work and you need to consider if it actually supports your real goal of being a pilot. It’s a nice thing to have and to be able to fall back on, but it’s also a very good way of burning yourself out before pilots course. Being an engineering officer is an excellent career (please don’t listen to the nah sayers with an axe to grind). The variety of employment is very wide and the skills and experience that you will acquire are very marketable. Something I used to say to the guys when working at the SQN was “If you don’t know what it is that I’m doing most the time, I’m happy. It means that I’m resolving issues before they impact on you on the floor and keeping everything in place to see the jets flying.”

Be careful with mentioning the hands on, not intrested in management thing whilst doing recruiting. This may view this as not being an officer like attribute and use it to rule you out for a pilot position.

Cheers!
:cool:

[bongof4]

Beware of the people who tell you engineering is boring. Also beware of the snakecharmer - too many Gordons shared together for him to remember the good times . In mho after a couple of decades of spanner moving, and as I write this from an airport lounge rather far from Blighty, an engineering career in the RAF will kick back what you give it. As for the 'office-bound' comments, that can be true though I have never bothered with the glamour of a staff tour and my office is some thousands of feet up a mountain with a decent view.

It is what you make it!

[Pontius Navigator]

I know where at least two PC Eng Wg went. Both became contract managers and I know a Gp Capt (aircrew I think) did the same.

Essentially they changed hats and suits and then did the same sorts of job with a commercial ethos instead of a blue suit one. The CM with HCS at Cranditz to name but one.

[1984]

Remember that as a junior officer you will get one chance to be a JEngO, and there are only 2 JEngOs per Sqn (normally) then as a Sqn Ldr you will have another chance (If you are really lucky) to be a SEngO (One per Sqn). So not many jobs left!

However there are alot of stn jobs which are not all bad. I have had 2 stn tours both of which have been great fun and I am now a fast jet JEngO. I certainly enjoyed my stn tours more as I had more time to enjoy what the stn could offer, but as a JEngO the job is alot more rewarding. I have yet to experience the wonders of a staff tour (Boo) but I have to get signed on first...

I would suggest deciding what you want from the RAF, you'll be stuck with it for quite a while!

Remember the careers office has a job to do, so be on you guard!

[PhilM]

Sorry to drag this one up again lads, hope you dont mind a few more questions!

Im currently at University, and will be applying to join the RAF in 2years.....

I would love to be a pilot, but think age and medical problems will exclude me (eyes), 2nd choice (well...first really since I acknowledge it'd take a mircale to get pilot considering), being WSO (as I fit the medical/age requirements).....but anyway, if found unsuitable.....Engineering Officer....

(Sorry about the above, bit boring ;))......

I am studing an Aerospace Engineering Degree, combined with the JAR-66 B1.1 License, as a backup plan really.....as I want spend my career in the RAF, not civvy street.

Would having the JAR66 license help with being an Engineering Officer? A lot of people are telling me to stay Civvy since I will have the license to do so....

An interesting point is the RAF are sending 6 people to where I am studying to gain JAR66 Licenses for the A330 Tankers that may be coming in!


Cheers lads!:ok:

[The Maintainer]

Having a civvy licence can only improve your employability in the RAF as it drives towards aligning itself with the civil aviation world. You will, I'm sure, be eminently suited to employment on the future A330 tankers in particular.

[ImageGear]

Joe2812

Of one thing you can be certain, an Engineering Degree doth not an Engineer or a Pilot make. Only in the UK will you find this misplaced, exclusive emphasis on "if you have not got the right degree you cannot possibly fit".

Other countries have a far more practical approach to Engineering and provided that you display a high level of drive, initiative, and good engineering common sense, will not penalise you for not having the "chitty".

Indeed, current thinking appears to be favouring direct entry into the pilot stream gaining the advantage of slots and an early start.

Of course if you need "braces" with that "belt", possibly more money in the longer term, and can risk arriving for selection with only one bite of the apple left, go for it.

With Slopjockey, I concur!

I've hired 'em & I've fired 'em.

Imagegear - ex-fitter, ex-Mainframe Design Engineer (No chitty), Pilot, eternal optimist.

[Snakecharmer]

Bongo...

Gordons... pah! Bombay Sapphire please! Now... those WERE the good times!

[Jobza Guddun]

Phil M,

"An interesting point is the RAF are sending 6 people to where I am studying to gain JAR66 Licenses for the A330 Tankers that may be coming in!"

I don't suppose that these 6 would be Engineering Officers as opposed to shopfloor spannermen would they? Couldn't have juniors getting quals like a JAR-66 licence out of the RAF could we.....?

Cheers Jobza

[PhilM]

Not sure mate, can always try and find out!

If the RAF are sending folk out to gettheir licenses for the A330, im hoping it'd stand me in good stead, already having a license and wanting to join the RAF?