Are you an aviation professional?

[Genghis the Engineer]

I'm curious, of those of us who read / post in the private flying forum, how many of us consider ourselves aerospace professionals.

For want of any definition, may I suggest that if you make enough money out of aviation / aerospace to consider it a significant part of you income, you are a professional - regardless of what job you are doing in that.

G

[Engineer]

Another apt definition might be
very competent: showing a high degree of skill or competence would rather like to see that than a person who prostitutes oneself for financial gain :)

[Genghis the Engineer]

Problem is, everybody meets that discription in their own mind - if not anybody elses.

I'm sure we all aspire to the highest possible standards of professionalism, but that is a completely different question.

G

[englishal]

Does building Ground to Air missiles count?
:}

[Whirlybird]

For want of any definition, may I suggest that if you make enough money out of aviation / aerospace to consider it a significant part of you income, you are a professional - regardless of what job you are doing in that.

Well, I probably barely cover expenses...but without instructing/aviation writing I'd be spending huge amounts on helicopter flying, so I'd have far less disposable income (like none or a minus figure :{ ) so in that sense it qualifies as a significant part of my income. :ok:

[AerBabe]

Where's the "Yes, but trying not to be" option? :confused:

Cor... innit nice to be included. Didn't 'arf feel odd saying I'm a pro', like, ya know.

[Genghis the Engineer]

You can't escape Aerbabe, you are one of us whether you like it or not :E

G

[ShyTorque]

Still trying to get it right after my first ever pilot's salary hit the bank sometime in 1977.

With a whisper soft thud, rather than a bang... ;)

[Whirlygig]

With a whisper soft thud, rather than a bang.

Is that the way the your salary ends?

Not with a bang but a whimper? ;)

Cheers

Whirlygig

[Kit d'Rection KG]

Much to my surprise, I still am!

I got into the lo-co world, ended up in management, and didn't realise how it was ruining my life!

Almost got out altogether, and then landed an absolutely wonderful (non-airline) job!

Now doing PPL(H) course, and re-discovering what it's all about!

Also flying fixed wing (light and getting back to the jet soon) and beginning to enjoy that again too...

The 'profession' isn't what it used to be, by a long way, but there are still a few high-spots!

[ShyTorque]

Whirly,

Oo, you naughty girl! I've never spent the last of my salary on a bang, if that's what you mean....... ;)

An' it's the bank manager who whimpers :(

[Miserlou]

Definition of a pilot?
Too lazy to work, too honest to steal.

I get paid for flying with all mod-cons.
I pay to fly with as little as possible and preferably upside down in an open cockpit biplane hence mym presence on the private forum.

[Timothy]

There is no entry for "resting".

I used to make a living out of flying, I hope again in the future to make a living out of flying, but at the moment I make a living in order to fly.

[dublinpilot]

Nope. I'm an accountant, and fly purely for fun.

[AerBabe]

Funny innit; many people have referred to flying/pilotting in their answers. There's a lot more to being an aviation professional than heated cockpits and comfy seats you know. :sad:

[ShyTorque]

Aerbabe,

You're right - I spent many years as a chock. Got bored with it though and got demoted to pilot ;)

But comfy seats? Who's got comfy seats? What sort of aircraft has comfy seats?

[AerBabe]

It's all relative. :(

[Whirlybird]

Comfy seats? What are they? :confused: Heated cockpits???? I've been sitting in an R22 almost all day, apart from over three hours driving in order to sit in it....and I've got backache and I'm cold. :(

[AerBabe]

Excuse me, but at least you have doors. :*



Whirlybitch.

[ShyTorque]

"...and I've got backache and I'm cold. "

I know a cure for both those things....... ;)

[Algirdas]

I define my TST cockpit as comfy 'cos I don't have to pick flies out of my teeth as long as I keep my head behind that windscreen thingy - if I could get rid of the icicles from my mitts, I'd be in 7th heaven!!

[Whirlygig]

"...and I've got backache and I'm cold. "
I know a cure for both those things.......

.... that would be a nice, hot bath and a mug of cocoa, then?

Cheers

Whirlygig

[Whirlybird]

.... that would be a nice, hot bath and a mug of cocoa, then?

At present, that's all I'm likely to get. :( Open to offers though. ;)
Whirlybird, behave, this is an aviation forum; you'll get this thread deleted or moved to Jet Blast if you're not careful :eek:

Aerbitch,
The doors, or rather fit of them, or actually lack of fit of them, was the reason I was cold. The R22 in question has a heater. The student's door fits; the instructor's one lets in lots of cold air. If I had the heater on the student was too hot, so we had it off while my left arm gradually lost any feeling. :( Meanwhile, student is telling me how wonderful it all is, and what a great job I have, while I try to prevent us heading full tilt into the ground while still looking relaxed and smiling nicely, at the same time looking at my watch to see if we can go back and thaw out yet. I still agree that it's a great job (must be mad), BUT..... see above.

[ShyTorque]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.... that would be a nice, hot bath and a mug of cocoa, then?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Might be, might be... :O

Or it could be a ride in a nice BMW, with a really good heater and back - supportive seats. Women prob'ly prefer the backache and cold though, eh! :p

Can't really think of anything else..... ;)

Edit: Hey, Whirlybird! I've just thought of something else! :E

[stiknruda]

Aviation professional, no - but in the past couple of years have significantly contributed towards my annual flying budget by taking in some fabric repair work and a wee bit of aircraft spraying. Mainly PFA types, but I work well with a CAA/FAA ticket holder, so most things are possible.

Stik

[boomerangben]

Interesting that over half of the votes are from aviation professionals. Thought this was a private pilots forum. Oh well I shall add my vote to the top line, wishing that I could still do some private flying.

[Genghis the Engineer]

http://www.pprune.org/images/pprune3.gif
This is an aviation professionals website! I was curious therefore as to what proportion of us on this bit of the site were. That's all.

G

[2Donkeys]

Not sure I really believe that more than 50% of the readership are aviation professionals. That doesn't seem to square with the kind of posting activity I see and questions asked?

2D

[Genghis the Engineer]

Have you looked at the airline forums?

G :O

[slim_slag]

You could say the same about Rumours and News ;)

I seem to remember the pprune 'powers that be' used a definition for 'professional' something like 'Holds an ATPL and uses it'.

Just edited to say the above definition is a long way from what mine would be :)

[2Donkeys]

Good points Genghis and Slim!

Nice to see some aspirational voting though isn't it :D

[Skylark4]

Not sure if I have missed a point or not but:-
The question was"Are you an aviation professional?"

I get my salary, and it's not very big, from being a techie on aircraft and without me and my ilk, you can have ATPLs sticking out of every pocket of your uniform but you ain't going to fly very far.

I have a PPL and am therefore qualified to post in this forum.

Mike W

[LowNSlow]

Did once use "going professional" as an excuse to justify my twin and IMC ratings. Realised that at my time of life (late 30's with a humungous mortgage) I would be committing financial suicide for a career that I wasn't 100% convinced that I'd enjoy. So I stuck with the tiddlers and now dote on my Auster.

[squibbler]

aviation

noun

the activity of flying aircraft, or of designing, producing and maintaining them

Well that counts us ATCO's out :( . Funny, I always thought I worked in Aviation.............:confused:

I suppose I could argue I maintain them, I try and keep them from hitting each other for a living..........:\

Oh go on then, I'll vote yes :)

Edited for poor spelling & syntax following night shift

[High Wing Drifter]

the activity of flying aircraft, or of designing, producing and maintaining them
If that is the definition then I'm an aviation professional too! However I hardly think so. My contributions are microscopic compared to the whole :\

[Skylark4]

Squibbler,
I guess you could say that you maintain them in one piece then. That's good enough for me.

Mike W

[JB007]

Worked in aviation since I was 16, started flying when I was 19, 10 years in Flight Ops/Crew Control for various UK airlines, started flying professionally last year....and then realised how crap I am at been an aviation professional...:ugh: :sad: :\

[The White Warrior]

We all love to play 'up there, where the air is clear', but it is such an unforgiving environment that you have to have your wits about you and therefore have a professional attitude (as opposed to 'gash' or 'unprofessional') to everything you do.

Therefore, I'd say that anyone who has anything to do with aviation and goes about it seriously can call themselves an Aviation Professional.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Depends whether it's a noun or verb.

We all attempt to "be professional", which is not the same as "to be a professional".

When I started the thread, I meant it as a noun, I'd take the verb as given.

G

[foxmoth]

Only trouble with this sort of poll is that it is more likely to be answered by those who ARE Aviation Professionals, so making it rather biased:confused:

[J.A.F.O.]

I spend a few days away and find such replies as:
so we had it off while my left arm gradually lost any feeling.
It's a disgrace. :E

I have voted yes because the activity that puts the majority of the money into my bank (well, into my overdraft) involves me flying however I am here in the private flying forum because the thing that takes most money out of my bank is also flying.

[Confabulous]

Professional? Nope and don't wannabe a wannabe... I discovered that after the excitment and glamour wears off it just becomes another stressful job (or so I've been told by professional pilots). So I decided I'd have more fun as a rich PPL/IR/ME/whatever then a debt-ridden professional pilot.

Until then I'm a neurolinguistic programmist. Which I thoroughly enjoy!

Conf

[S-Works]

I ruined a hobby once by turning it into a profession, never again.

Would never consider a career in avaiation, no job in aviation pays enough for me to have so many of the toys I like to play with.

Avaition fosters as many broken dreams as the dive industry, become a pilot and like it so want to make a career of it, pay tens of thousands to train for CPL/ATPL give up a well paid job and live on the bread line to pursue the "dream" when really they are just fed up of there existing crap life and decide to swap it for another crap one. The reason there old life was crap was that they were probaly no good at it so why should they be any better in aviation. Lets face it getting £50k in debt for a "dream" shows pretty poor judgement making!

What employer is going to give someone suffering a mid life crisis and decides to become a commercial pilot a job over a 20yr old who will work for beer money and the pulling power!!!

Right off to don the flame proof pants!!!


:D

[Monocock]

Right off to don the flame proof pants!!!

Not at all Bose, my views concur with yours.

I have seen several "mid-thirties" types go off and pursue their professional aviation dream. Their families suffer, their bank balance suffers and they end up completing it and getting a poorly paid job two years later with huge borrowings.

More often than not they moan about the anti-social hours and the company who employs them. When I was 18 I managed to get to the final stage of a BA cadet scheme. I was booted out when my A level results came through and one of my results was a grade below what was required. I wept. I never went back and tried again as I then pursued another career (one that I love). I did consider returning to professional aviation four years ago and once again got to the final stage of a Cabair sponsor scheme. As I sat waiting for the interview I wondered what the hell I was doing there.

I had a good job, a wife and two kids, a house and an aircraft to fly whenever I wanted.

I walked away and thanked the lord I saw sense before getting too involved. I have never looked back and sometimes wonder if PPL holders go into professional aviation for the wrong reasons.

Weekend golfers sometimes turn pre and then wonder what happened to the game they used to love. The same applies to the PPL who wants gold braid on their shoulders.

One person I know who does fly for an airline hates his job with a passion and flies for a hobby because the big jets just don't satisfy his passion for flying. If that's the case, it's a hell of a lot of cash to blow to discover that flying a jet is not as exciting as it looks.

Just my view as I'm sat here waiting for the fog to burn off....

[S-Works]

I have a mate in the same position, a commercial training captain who has flown 17,000 hrs. He hates the job, hates the hours and the uncertainty of it. When he was young it was glamorous now he has 2 children 8 and 11 and due to new rostas he has to commute from Halifax to Toronto to pick up his aircraft to start his duty shift. This is a commute of several THOUSAND miles just to get to work!

He comes over to the UK and sits in my 152 and tells me it reminds him what flying is really all about and flying a bus is not what is all about. If he had his time over again he reckons he would not do it. He has been looking for a GA aircraft in Halifax to start flying it and go back to his roots.

I had the same with diving, I am allegedly one of the most experianced divers/instructors/examiners in the world, with several thousand dives, books, documentaries and technical courses to my credit. Yet these days it is near on impossible to get me near the water. Next week I am diving in Cyprus after a bunch of my friends twisted my arm into going on a trip with them (airline pilot mentioned above is one of them) in attempt to get me back into the water! When I was just a recreational diver you could not keep me out of the water.

I am very passionate about my flying and fly a huge amount of hours in everything from microlights to rotary to satisfy it. No way do I dream of flying a bunch of drunken chavs to Benidorm. I do dream of flying an ILS with the needles glued together or landing on a short strip in demanding cross winds!

There are too many people deluding themselves about a dream career.

Once bitten twice shy!

:D

[Flyer Flier]

:ooh: No need to don the flame proof pants, but time for a little balance, so that you don't put the dreamers off too much !

I was always a dreamer, I applied, but never got an interview for an Air League scholarship, only a little silver badge. My eyesight wasn't good enough to fly for the RAF. I struggled through my PPL in many places, and only passed my BCPL test second attempt. Didn't get selected after the sim ride for CTC to join Monarch. And somewhere in there I've also failed a BA selection.
I have a souvenir letterhead collection of rejection letters from nearly every airline in the business.

Having started the commercial route after changing careers mid-life, I was instructing and living on a very rough council estate, which was the only rent affordable.

Ten years later, if you stole all my training records, I am sure you would find that I have never been a star, but pretty average. However, they would all say that I have been keen, eager to put right my mistakes, very enthusiastic and determined to succeed.

I never considered giving up and my enthusiasm and determination finally paid off. After a final big break into a small airline, I found myself with a jet command within two years and then managed to get in with a long haul airline.

Is it worth it? I have just returned from a 3 nighter in Shanghai. The flight out ended with unforecast very low viz and cloud and a Cat II Autoland, which keeps the mind engaged on fuel and divs etc. The flight back was daytime over China, Mongolia and Russia and gives a unique perspective, in terms of the barren unspoilt and sploit places left in this world.
And in between I just happened to have a great time in Shanghai. Unlike the business people we bring to work, we are there officially to "rest" for 3 days. We celebrated St Pat's Day in O'Malleys,.... mayhem! Went go-kart racing, where they ply you with drink between the races !!! ... even more mayhem !!! To chill out we ate in world renown "Face" restaurant and had a mellow chinese auromatherapy massage. I can't believe it's work.
I count my lucky stars that this job can be all it's cracked up to be and would not put anyone else off from following their dream. It is very competitive, so you have to want it bad enough, just be more determined than unfortunate ones who don't make it!
Good Luck to all dreamers!! :ok:


Flyer Flier.
P.S. I still keep the little silver Air League badge on my bag as a reminder of all the set backs I ignored to get here.

[S-Works]

FF, Glad you are still enjoying, my friend in his first few years enjoyed and I enjiyed the first 3 or 4 thousand dives but even the best views and relax time become jaded.

I spent my life travelling to far flung places in 1st class and the views and relax time was fun at first and then routine sets in and it becomes just another job!

I would not knock anyone who has achieved there dream and I am glad you have achieved yours.

My comments were not meant to bash anyone who chosen this path, after all I have lots of commercial flying friends. I was just reflecting my views on those who are less realistic, for every pilot like FF there are 500 who don't make it.

[Whirlybird]

Is there ANY work that after many years doesn't become "just another job"? Particularly for the type of people who thrive on novelty and challenge, and I think that describes many pilots? Does that fact mean that people shouldn't follow their dream? I suppose the answer to that depends on the importance to you of money and security? And how you feel about those may change as you get older...or it may not (hasn't with me, not a lot anyway).

Difficult business, life, innit? :confused:

[PPRuNeUser0172]

I for one read some of these threads and despair sometimes, I feel that the civvy flying world is based entirely on money. Obviously I hear you say, its a commercial world, but where this does make me feel uncomfartable is when people like FF above claim that they are not the best pilots and are very average. Not meaning to be dismissive but I find that a little worrying. Surely there should be more to becoming an Airline Pilot than how much money you are prepared to throw at the problem. What about core skills and a naturally good pair of hands (and feet). If and when the **** hits the fan, I would hate to think that the guy/girl up front was only there because a) Daddy was rich , b) they took huge personal risk and sacrifice to get there.

Now I know that there are many capable aviators out there, but it seems more and more that natural ability seems to be less and less of a factor in recruiting these days. I personally feel that the military training system is much more reliable, and necessarily brutal. If you aint good enough, you aint good enough. You wouldnt catch a young potential fast jet pilot failing Valley and coming back to try again when he had saved up enough money or go to another training school who would happily take his money for a "pass" however marginal. Standards should not be determined by finance I guess is my point, and it would appear that this is where the system is heading

I prepare to stand corrected.................................

[S-Works]

Dirty sanchez,

You are absolutely bang on!!!

[Flyer Flier]

:hmm: Dirty Sanchez,
My post was all about a determination to reach a goal and not letting set backs cause you to quit. It never mentioned money. I can assure you that being average is irrelevant every six months at your sim ride, you have to pass the requirements or you fail. Rich or poor, however you got there, you have to be able to reach the standard. I'm afraid that the majority of people are average, otherwise they wouldn't be the majority !! Training is all about ensuring that your average pilot on the line is capable, competent and safe. I wouldn't want to fly on an airline where only the few top pilots could cope with an emergency !
You come from a totally different environment and you can see from reading your previous posts that you are still caught up in your previous little UAS bravado. I would be very surprised if you have completed your first tour yet, because most of the former military pilots that I fly with have long lost that disdain of the lesser mortals that you display.

Hope you make it all the way through to your dream .... Eurofighter?

Because if you don't maybe you will have to put up with being an average Tornado pilot.

However, if we can quote you on a previous post of yours: "I have seen a big difference in the standard of pilots throughout my RAF training and there are definitely those who are more gifted than others, and quite often this is borne out of confidence."

...I'm sure you'll do just fine!;)

Cheers
FF

[High Wing Drifter]

I prepare to stand corrected.................................
Hardly a fair comparison is it? The mil world has a completely different set of requirements. If anything the commercial world stands to benefit more because individuals can retake a skills test or examination; the commercial world needs much more than elitist stick'n'rudder here's to WingCo bottoms up and down the hatch types, it needs well balanced and rounded individuals more than anything. Now I don't wish to say that ex-RAF are anything like the ridiculous caricature that I attempted, but then again the mil training is all that matters attitude is equally one dimensional.

Weren't the spate of commercial airline accidents in the 80's that started the CRM revolution blamed on the mil FJ types that were hired into command positions and who's personalities were not particularly suited to asking for opinions? One to watch is the BBC Horizon video "The Wrong Stuff".

Phew! Where'd that come from :E

[PPRuNeUser0172]

Average Torando pilot??? Anyone who operates a Tornado is hardly "average" by definition of the amount of hurdles he/she will have had to have jumped through. Although I agree that the majority are average in their profession as you have correctly pointed out, but that is all relative. My point was that money seems to be able to achieve a lot in the civvy flying world and that maybe a limit to how many times you can retake tests/ratings before they say, enough is enough?? If you for example take someone who fails there driving test numerous times, they may eventually pass but will never be a good driver.

I dont see what my "UAS bravado" has do with anything, I detect sour grapes there. Yes I was part of the UAS, quite a few years ago now and agree that it can appear a little elitist, it also teaches you how to fly a single piston beyond the PPL standard required for similar aircraft.

I am not looking down my nose, and I certainly did not infer anything about lesser mortals. Once again, it would appear you are being a little over sensitive. Although I am glad you have the time and nothing better to do than trawl PPRuNE looking for a great quote to "highlight" your point, personally I cant be @rsed to look through what you have previously written or feel the need.

On the part about achieving goals and dreams, well you dont have the monopoly on that. We all have aspirations and yes confidence is a big factor in achieving that. I make no apologies for my tone, dont confuse my confidence with the chip on your shoulder.

Hing wing drifter, do you want to go into details about FJ mates causing accidents or is that just rumour/heresay???? I do not know which incidents to which you refer, please enlighten. Well done for your amazing stereotype, that must have taken you ages to think up. I dont see why it is not a fair comparison, and to claim that the military are 1 dimensional in their approach, well I beg to differ. Mortgaging your house, mother, kidneys, life to achieve your dream, to me would appear pretty 1-d.

Regards

DS

[Whirlybird]

I don't think it's true that people who take longer are necessarily worse pilots, or drivers for that matter. It may be true in some cases, but certainly not all. They're simply slower learners, that's all. The military can't use them because they can't afford the time and money to train them, because they can pick and choose and get those who learn fast anyway, and because they require an exceedingly high standard for some of their aircraft. Let's face it, flying an airliner really isn't that hard, while flying a tornado at low level in some situations probably is. Not that I have any experience of either, I should add. So yes, money can achieve a lot. It can get you to the required standard, if you're good enough. But if you're not, then it won't. Why is that a problem?

[Flyer Flier]

Dirty Sanchez,
Glad to know that you are not looking down your nose at anyone and I do not want to be seen as over sensitive. There is no sour grapes over your UAS flying, it is a great opportunity for those fortunate enough to do it and I am glad you made use of it by joining the RAF afterwards.
However, to get back on the thread, we are both aviation professionals, just like the air trafficers and engineers on these forums and we should be careful how we influence the people who look to these sites for guidance. I see too much negative posting about pilot's careers on here. It's not that there aren't valid negative points made, but rather the fact that people who are steaming along quite content, do not have the motivation to post, since they have no axe to grind.
I am glad that pprune wasn't around when I was working through the hard times of job hunting, otherwise I might have been disillusioned too soon by all the doom merchants.
Incidentally, I agree with you that money and affordability is a negative factor on gaining your licence and I was lucky that I managed to complete the self-improver route before the need to pay for modular training, otherwise I could not have afforded it. It is a shame there are now people who would be flying commercially, but can't because of financial limitations. Unfortunately the increased costs has just increased the stakes of not succeeding in gaining a job at the end of the process, however, if someone is determined and dedicated enough, I still believe they should follow their vocation. I am only trying to give the same encouragement that was given to me, when I was in their position ten years ago.
All the best
Flyer Flier
P.S. It is actually very quick and easy to read all someone's previous posts on pprune with a click of a button.
P.P.S. I also fully agree with Whirlybird above.

[High Wing Drifter]

Dirty,

http://www.parthenon.uk.com/aviation/itm00438.htm It is absolutely fascinating if a bit pricey. I believe this is common fodder for many MCC courses now. Don't get over worked up about ex mil pilots, they aren't a central theme. I wanted to make the point that recruitment strategies were changed away from favouring mainly ex-mil and that just because you are not hot stuff, it seems that it doesn't mean that you aren't an effective commercial pilot.

Flyer Flier,

Hopefully soon, I will have the same problem that you had. With a fair wind I hope to eventually land on my feet too. Its good to hear the success stories.

Removed fullstop in link. Try now

[PPRuNeUser0172]

Thanks for posting the link high winger! didnt work though, you got an alternate???

Some interesting points raised above, please note it was not my intention to be inflammatory. It never pays to p!ss people off, who knows, I will probably be asking FF for a job in his airline in a few years when he is chief pilot. Probably just aswell this is anonymous.....kind of!

Regards

DS

[hollywood285]

Blimey, popped on to a right heated debate!! think I'll stick to the day job and pay for the spamcan!

[Wide-Body]

Just to put a Professional Pilot view on the record.

I love it. Best job for me their is. No parental money, just determination, patience, luck and a bit of skill. And not listening to those who said I could not. It gives me the salary to endulge in my aviation related hobies. How else could the thick kid of the family afford to have his own aeroplane.

The job itself is brilliant. Just one example. Last night unforecast low vis led to last minute flight planning, working with all the other aviation professionals (atc et all) to acieve a landing in less than 300m viz. One mistake from any of the professionals could have led to the loss of 146 lives. Can this happen in YOUR job on a daily basis!!!!!And what did the pax think. Nothing. They probably did not even know it was foggy, till they drove out of the airport.

Todays aviatiom may seem sterile, but it is only because of the high level of dedication of the pilots, ATCO`s, Engineers who make it this way.

Yep their are crap bits, but if your heart is in it their are many more great bits. My background to be able to comment. Over 10,000 hours from DC3-A320. Via Chipmunk, YAK, and 747.

Note to all aspiring professionals. That most of the people pouring cold water on the job do not do it.

Good luck to all

Wide