Retracting flaps & airbrakes

[Gentle Climb]

One of the topics on here last week was about pedantic captains. One of the contributors mentioned a pet hate that some f/o's retract flaps & brakes whilst taxiing to the gate or even on the runway. It's likely to be an easy question for someone, but what is the problem with doing this?

[Vulcan News]

Although I'm only a PPL, I was always told to at least clear the active runway before 'cleaning up' the aircraft. I was told that there was always the possibility that in the heat of the moment, you might hit the wrong switch and retract the gear (not that the microswitches should allow you to do that whilst on the ground!). However I can't see any problem with 'reducing drag' once taxiing back to the stand...

[Global Pilot]

After the call of 60kts you usually hear "I have control" and the skipper will take it to the gate. Speed brakes are at their most effective at high speed hence the impotance of the call that your speed brake has deployed. As the aircraft comes to a stop or continues to the turn off most captains will stow the brakes as they have no effect.

As it is now the captains airplane the FO will usually ask if it ok to retract the flaps. In my after landing checks this is normally the first item before starting the APU if required.

[PPRuNeUser0172]

Yeah thats right, I am sure inadvertent "Up" gear selection is a common scenario when taxiing back to the gate, surely jets are cleaned up when the non handling dude has a few seconds to do it after calling vacated, working out where to taxi to, expediting off the runway for traffic behind. Surely, not everything has to have an official "must do" time. Common sense rules KO?

;)

[ZSLHF]

Gentle Climb and others, clearly the 'pedantic' Captain is confusing single versus multi-crew operation. In single crew operations (this answers your question Vulcan News) it makes sense to complete your after-landing checks once clear of the runway (I think this is taught worldwide almost without exception). In multi-crew operation, once the Captain takes control at low speeds after landing, the FO is free to perform all the after-landing checks, whether on the runway, on the taxi or even later: Makes zero difference to safety when you do the checks once captain has control to taxi.

Seems like some Captains need some re-training...

[BOAC]

ZSLHF - one small note of caution. A while back a BA a/c (Airbus I think) had a minor 'runway excursion' after landing on a slippery runway. It was put down to the stowing of the speedbrake at too high a speed causing loss of braking effort. Now, I do not know which speed it was, nor any more than that, but a warning was issued that the s/brake should not be stowed before vacating the runway. It was judged that the loss of weight on wheels, even at a lowish speed, was contributory. I would certainly raise a 'grump' if my F/O stowed the speedbrake without checking with me first.

[ZSLHF]

BOAC, the incident you describe above is sheer stupidity on the part of the crew/FO, not a failure of the procedure. The SOP in our company, at the end of the landing roll, the Captain states he has control, grabs the tiller, and the Captain is responsible for stowing the speed brake lever when he sees fit. This is then the cue for the FO to complete the rest of the checks. Its foolproof... so far.

[Pilot Pete]

Good point BOAC

I suppose things differ in BA as your F/Os can taxi can't they (or was that just the old 757s with two tillers?)

In Brits the captain is the only one able to taxi (as there is only one tiller), so after he has taken control it is his task to stow the speedbrake. That also acts as the trigger for the F/O to action the after landing scan, but, he does not have to do it straight away. Common sense dictates that turning the strobe lights off once the runway is vacated is desirable, but the rest can really wait until a suitable time. For instance, if you are unfamiliar with the airfield the captain may require some assistance with the taxi navigation, calling ground control as required may be needed to confirm the routing, a good lookout (is always needed), but may be more so if there are other aircraft or obstacles close by, perhaps a non-standard taxi route due work in progress etc etc. Once these things are out the way then the rest of the scan can follow unhindered. Remember it's a case of prioritising, which comes from thinking ahead and good airmanship. An example may be that the taxi route is particularly short so you may want to fire the APU up ASAP so that it is running before you reach the stand, if not I delay, but I normally start my stopwatch as reverse goes to idle so that I have a 'cooling time' for if the captain wants to consider single engined taxi in.

So you can see there are those that just do the checks without thought, usually extremely slickly, even before the captain has left the runway and there are those who give it a little thought and use good airmanship. The main thing, as ever, is to think SAFETY and perhaps said pedantic captain was just getting the F/O to follow SOPs which may well have been that the scan is not completed until on stand................

PP

[error_401]

depends on situation but: NEVER before reaching a nice slow taxi speed. NEVER in a high workload situation.

Various scenarios:

In low visibility it may be advisable to clean up quickly even on the runway once the captain has control in order to have acomplished these tasks before looking out for the correct taxi turn-off.

In the same low visibility scenario it may also be highly advisable NOT to clean up because you need all eyes on the runway to find the taxi turn-off lights and identify the intersection your about to leave. Then call vacated, change freq. and call ground. you still have time to clean up once on a straight piece of taxiing.

If your taxi turn-off is far away, clean it up.

I don't think that the gear problem is an issue here. The lever is usually far from anything you would touch during the cleanup.

Extremely busy airport? You may wait for a straight strecht of taxiing for clean-up and after landing check.

The message?! Clean up when the boss tells you. If it is left to your own judgment: clean up when you feel like and your eyes are not needed. (Just try to clean up before entering the stand :\ it is not very elegant to park with everything still hanging out and maybe even the strobes still blinding everyone.)

[Onan the Clumsy]

I was taught this because of the old whoops-that-was-the-gear-switch scenario mentioned above. Especially as some a/c (early bonanzas?) have the switch positions reversed. All the other reasons make sense though including workload.

but then there is that old saw about taxiing with everything hanging out being a signal that you've been hijacked.


I don't think there are any easy questions.

[mono]

Onan,

surely landing on a contaminated runway requires "leaving everything hanging out" so not too sure about your theory.

[moochooser]

mono

Never flown anything very large or with spoilers used for braking but on things like a seneca you need to retract flaps at almost the same instant the main wheels touch down if you want to stop fast. Can't see why 'leaving everything (flaps) hanging out' would help other than keeping your attention where it is needed.

[West Coast]

Error 401 has my vote.

I want both sets of ear and eyes out. I want both of us listening for the clearance to cross the runway and not being distracted. There is nothing in the post landing check that I am aware of that is that important that it can't wait for a minute to ensure we are turning on the proper taxiway, have clearance to cross, etc.

[popay]

In the airline job, the bible is SOP. Most of the airlines SOP prescribe to do after landing ONLY after vacating the active RWY for all reasons mentioned above.
Cheers.

[FlightDetent]

In agreement to the said above, I've been taught to check speedbrakes retracted, select flaps up, start APU... only after the runway had been vacated, taxi instructions received from ground control, apron map consulted, situation briefed to the captain, first/next intersection located and agreed upon by both crewmembers, and right side clear check performed. Only then head down. The very and only exception (non-SOP) is that I select the timer on at 60 kts to calculate landing time once parked and I may elect to stow flaps on RWY below 60 if the turnoff is far enough ahead. How do I tell? Once the capt. closed reversers and retracted the speedbrakes thus disarming the autobrakes...

Works safely me thinks.
Cheers, FD.

[Hew Jaz]

but then there is that old saw about taxiing with everything hanging out being a signal that you've been hijacked.

I've heard similar - that arriving at the gate with everything out is such a signal.

[slingsby]

What ever happened to talking about what you were about to do. SOP here says, 60knt call, Captain assumes full control, de-selects idle reverse and when required stows speed brake. After landing check-list is at the captains call. Most often a subtle reminder to commence the list is in order, such as asking or a gentle rattle on the flap handle as you pull the list out in front of the captain. Make light of a forgetful pensioner!!!!! he is only human.

[northernav8rman]

Don't think it matters other than SOP, might herald back to the days when, 'lets get the weight on the wheels' was a necessary activity!!